Secret Apotheosis "challenge*" Run Advice

[Xos]

Hello all,

I just finished my first lunatic run and, having found it to be fairly easy, am eager to have a go at Apotheosis. However, there are certain limitations I would impose on myself, and unfortunately, I think I my current pairings my prohibit me from meeting these limitations.

First and foremost, I do not want to use LB (I'm willing to make an exception for the purposes of avoiding spotpass characters when possible). I would like to avoid dlc in general (though I don't mind using brides/dread fighters), and minimize bot usage. I'd also like to use less optimal children whom I like (e.g., nah, laurent) in meaningful combat roles. Finally, I'd like to avoid a physical avatar if feasible.

From the research I've done, I'm unsure if my current pairings would allow me to pull this off. Furthermore, as this is a lunatic playthrough (i.e., high internal level cap), I'm concerned that fixing the mess that is my current skill distribution will take an annoying amount of grinding. I am considering doing another playthrough to get better pairings and maybe correct skills quicker, but I don't want to grind out a team literally from scratch unless I know it is possible to beat Apotheosis's secret path with it. As I have no actual experience with Apotheosis, I am also wondering if I should grind out my current lunatic file and give it a go, even if I do need to start another file.

My current situation is as follows:

*=intention to replace

-Olivia!Lucina, GF/Vantage/SFaire/Astra(would replace with luna obv)/Aether

-Libra!Owain, GF/Vantage/Av+10*/Renewal*(replace w/vengeance?)/Despoil*(replace with hex?)

-Chrom!Inigo, GF/Vantage/Av+10*/Patience*/Armsthrift*

-Gaius!Cynthia, GF/Luna/Sp+2/Sol*/Relief*

-Stahl!Severa, GF/Vantage/Av+10*/Luna/Armsthrift*

-Vaike!Gerome, SBreaker/Str+2/Renwal*/Pass*/Tantivity*

-Lucina!Morgan(f), GF/Vantage/Aether*/Av+10*/Armsthrift* -- MU is +sp -skl

-Gregor!Yarne, SBreaker/Vantage/Armsthrift*/Sol*/Patience*

-Lon'qu!Laurent, Vengeance/Vantage/TFaire/Mag+2/Focus*

-Ricken!Noire, Luna/Vengeance/Skl+2*/Pavise*/Lifetaker* -- no GF :/

-Donnel!Nah, GF/Counter*/Sol*/Armsthrift*/Patience*

No Brady or Kjelle yet. None are married save Lucina.

In Summary:

-If this situation is salvageable given my self-imposed limitations, how should I proceed from here? I am aware of different main strategies for Apotheosis (VV enemy phase combat, rally/rescue/GF player phase, etc.), which would be more optimal/possible for my situation?

-If this situation is not salvageable, should I still max out the team to get a feel for Apo before attempting to build a new team?

Thanks very much in advance for any advice/help you guys can give me. I don't mind failing many times as long as I can get through eventually.

-edited for brevity(still very wordy)-

Edited April 1, 2015 by Xos

[eclipse]

That's a lot of text, but your topic's in the right place.

See if this helps.

[Xos]

Lol I just spent quite a bit of time reading that thread actually--and I guess I did it lazily. To be clear, I'm not asking how to beat Apotheosis with the pairings/conditions I mention, I just want to know if it looks possible before putting in the hours of grinding a team to try.

Well, I guess I am also asking if I should give it a go with an insufficient setup to get a feel for what it requires.

Thanks for the feedback, I tried to condense it a little.

[eclipse]

Since it's under similar conditions, you can calculate his stats, then compare it to your own. That should give you a ballpark as to whether or not your setup is possible.

[Xos]

Seems reasonable enough. I'll give it a go tomorrow and hopefully come up with some more specific questions. Though I'm more iffy about skills than stats, I assume I can get that the same advice applies.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Xos

[Knusperkeks]

Hi! o/

I used this excel sheet for my stat calculations. Made by Travis Smith. It was a great help.

I also used my own google docs sheet to calculate average damage output.

To echo Vascela from my thread, the best and most reliable damage output comes from Vengeance, so put that on as many units as possible, but keep in mind that - as you put more Vengeance users into your team - enemies with a combination of Counter/Vantage(+)/Hawkeye become very deadly.

As long as you have a unit which can provide enough chip damage without putting itself in danger, allowing a different unit to finish the target off, you will be in great shape. A sniper would be predestined.

Right now, your setup is too unfinished for me to give you a correct answer. There are too many unknown variables.

[Czar_Yoshi]

That's kind of a lot of restrictions to pile into a run with essentially random pairings. If you haven't done Apo before, going in with no LB, essentially no Rally/Staffbots, semi-canon classes only and pretty much random pairings is going to be nearly impossible.

I'd love to help and could probably still put something together with an acceptable chance of winning, but those restrictions are also a bit too vague for me to work with. You'll need to squeeze out every last drop of what team power you have, and you can't do that without very definite parameters.

[Xos]

Hi! o/

I used this excel sheet for my stat calculations. Made by Travis Smith. It was a great help.

I also used my own google docs sheet to calculate average damage output.

To echo Vascela from my thread, the best and most reliable damage output comes from Vengeance, so put that on as many units as possible, but keep in mind that - as you put more Vengeance users into your team - enemies with a combination of Counter/Vantage(+)/Hawkeye become very deadly.

As long as you have a unit which can provide enough chip damage without putting itself in danger, allowing a different unit to finish the target off, you will be in great shape. A sniper would be predestined.

Right now, your setup is too unfinished for me to give you a correct answer. There are too many unknown variables.

Thanks for the spreadsheet, I've been looking for something like that for a while. Regarding chip damage, that was primarily noire's role on your setup if I'm not mistaken?

That's kind of a lot of restrictions to pile into a run with essentially random pairings. If you haven't done Apo before, going in with no LB, essentially no Rally/Staffbots, semi-canon classes only and pretty much random pairings is going to be nearly impossible.

I'd love to help and could probably still put something together with an acceptable chance of winning, but those restrictions are also a bit too vague for me to work with. You'll need to squeeze out every last drop of what team power you have, and you can't do that without very definite parameters.

I definitely see why this might be a naively ambitious endeavor, and that's part of why I was wondering whether I should try normal Apotheosis with this "random" setup just to get sort of a feel for it; it sounds like I need to identify the specific threats Apotheosis will throw at me and construct a team that can deal with them, and that whether or not this means starting over is something I'll have to figure out by trying with what I already have. I will study the enemies a bit more and come up with a more complete proposal tomorrow so I have something more specific to ask for help with.

Thanks for the enthusiasm and patience :)

[Knusperkeks]

Regarding chip damage, that was primarily noire's role on your setup if I'm not mistaken?

Yes. Noire with a Double Bow will make a decent dent into the enemy. I mainly utilized Olivia on my Noire to take out huge chunks of HP out of the more durable enemy units, e.g. 99 hp Berserkers. This way, it's guaranteed that at least one 'boss' unit falls each turn, even if you're unlucky with dual strikes.

Since my team doesn't have much in the way of EP, I just rescue them out with the staff users.

[Vascela]

By "minimizing" bot usage, are you inclined to use rally bots at all? Because that alone is a free 8 stats in attack. Rescues can be dealt with later (as even a combat role could carry one depending on class).

Forged Long Bows are extremely comparable to Double Bow (a small trade in power for a small change in hit). Don't be afraid to run snipers; they're my favorite physical class and for good reason.

All that said, anything can work if thrown in a little randomness, so it's not going to be a huge deal. I'd say get your feet wet.

[Xos]

I used this excel sheet for my stat calculations. Made by Travis Smith. It was a great help.

I cant seem to get the macro/buttons working, do you know if they work in OpenOffice?

By "minimizing" bot usage, are you inclined to use rally bots at all? Because that alone is a free 8 stats in attack. Rescues can be dealt with later (as even a combat role could carry one depending on class).

Forged Long Bows are extremely comparable to Double Bow (a small trade in power for a small change in hit). Don't be afraid to run snipers; they're my favorite physical class and for good reason.

All that said, anything can work if thrown in a little randomness, so it's not going to be a huge deal. I'd say get your feet wet.

I'd be ok with one non-spotpass rally bot, but I'd like to avoid it if possible (I could deal with Katarina). I don't think determining whether thats possible is feasible as of right now.

I'm warm towards snipers as I have actually never used one in awakening and I can see their uses in Apo.

Trying to do the calculations its very clear that I need to get my feet wet. I don't want to literally look at each enemy's data and ensure I have a pairing that can beat it, and from what I can tell that's not necessary. I what should I look at when doing calculations then?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Don't bother with every enemy's data, just go for the key bosses: you'll need ways of dealing with Anna, the Helswath Berserkers, the 99 Lck Sorcs and the Brave Bow Snipers. For everything else, if you can hit the general thresholds of 220 Hit (100% on all non-bosses) and 60 Spd (doubles most non-bosses, avoids being doubled by all but Anna and Snipers), you'll be OK winging it.

Having a Rallybot packing Spectrum, Spd, Skl, Str or Mag and one more will help immensely in hitting those general thresholds. You'll need a Logbook unit for that though (Katarina recommended).

Normal Apo can be fun but isn't really a good preparation for what you'll find in Secret: there are no turn limits, no Counter/Luna+/Vantage+, and enemy stats are a good 10 points lower across the board, which really hurts in Spd and Def (Normal? 45 Spd and 30 Def. Easy double and KO. Secret? 55 Spd and 40 Def. More than doubles everything at base). Normal enemies also tend to concentrate their PavGis on their strong defensive stat while Secret ones like to shore up their weaker defense, which makes it harder to exploit weaknesses without a good team.

[Xos]

Should most/all pairs have 220 hit/60 speed?

[Czar_Yoshi]

I'd strongly advise it for any pair that wants to see combat. It's not the end of the world for a pair if they lack it but there is a very steep performance drop-off that starts immediately once you start going under it. Between 59 and 55 Spd, you'll start missing out on a huge amount of doubles- with anything under 55 Spd you'll only be doubling the 5 slowest enemies in the map and regular mooks will begin doubling you back. As little as 51 Spd and you won't be doubling anything. The highest Avo of any mook is 120 (hence 220 being the Hit threshold). The lowest is 98- going more than 23 Hit under that 220 threshold will leave you with imperfect hit on every enemy in the map.

[Xos]

mmkay, that definitely gives a helpful starting point for team building.

In another thread, you said:

Secret Apo is pretty clearly balanced around the player having a fully capped/married team but no idea what they're going up against.

(Apologies if I'm being the Tharja to your Robin)

That's sort of the approach I'd like to take here. I don'r recall if it was you or Knusperkeks or someone else entirely who said that Apo tests strategy/teambuilding more than tactics but that seems sort of contradictory to me. Is "not knowing what I'm going up against" different from thinking of different possible 'archetypal' enemies that I should be able to deal with? Is the latter something that I should learn through experience?

Sorry I still dont have a more specific team to work with, contrary to my earlier promise--I am still working on it and will very likely have a first draft tomorrow. Also, if this starts to morph into a general "guyz teach me how to teambuild" thread, feel free to stop me.

[Czar_Yoshi]

You're going in without LB and with limited Rallies. That's closer to an extreme challenge run than a fully maxed team (and you're using semirandom pairings and mostly canon classes on top of all that), so you'll need a preparation edge not to get flattened.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Knusperkeks]

I don'r recall if it was you or Knusperkeks or someone else entirely who said that Apo tests strategy/teambuilding more than tactics

That was AC iirc.

that seems sort of contradictory to me. Is "not knowing what I'm going up against" different from thinking of different possible 'archetypal' enemies that I should be able to deal with? Is the latter something that I should learn through experience?

As a response to that:

The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy. To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat, but cannot make certain of defeating the enemy.

If you use enemy data, the last part becomes invalid.

The difference is that a well balanced generic team's purpose is to not lose, while an optimized team's purpose is to win.

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Xos]

I see, thank you.

Another question: Why is beserker more popular than swordmaster as a support unit? Is the damage boost mandatory? I cant recall seeing any swordmasters on apo teams, despite the +5 speed.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Xos

[Vascela]

Because people crave high attack values (regardless if the attack values translate to real value or not). You say mandatory, but in reality, everything is a guideline. Find a way to get lethal to rout the enemies is really the hump you need to get over. If you think that the sword master benefits outweighs the opportunity cost of a zerker (or another class), then it's worth it.

[Czar_Yoshi]

^Emphasis being on "if you think the benefits outweigh the opportunity cost"- while there certainly are cases when that +2 Spd could come in handy, they generally won't be as common as cases when Berserker's +7 pairup Str boost and +12 Str cap over Swordmaster would be more helpful.

You'd be hard pressed to find a case in Awakening where something is strictly worse in every way than another thing, but there are definitely things that are generally more useful.

The main reason Swordmasters are almost nonexistent in Apo teams is that their availability is completely eclipsed by Assassins, who have equal Spd, better Skl, better Str, Bow access, and generally better pairup bonuses.

[Knusperkeks]

I'm using Berserkers and Sages because they have the brute force necessary to break through enemy defenses even when they're in the back line (without active skill).

There is a big difference in attacking a 50 defense enemy with 55, 60 or 65 attack.

55-50 = 5 dmg

60-50 = 10 dmg

65-50 = 15 dmg

I increased the raw damage by 30%, but the effective damage dealt was increased by 200%. These simple numbers are just made up to showcase why raw power is important.

If this hypothetical character deals 4 blows to the enemy, he will do 20 damage at 55 atk and 60 damage at 65 atk.

20 damage won't kill the enemy, 60 damage will. And you want to kill for reasons which are obvious.

[Xos]

Because people crave high attack values (regardless if the attack values translate to real value or not). You say mandatory, but in reality, everything is a guideline. Find a way to get lethal to rout the enemies is really the hump you need to get over. If you think that the sword master benefits outweighs the opportunity cost of a zerker (or another class), then it's worth it.

^Emphasis being on "if you think the benefits outweigh the opportunity cost"- while there certainly are cases when that +2 Spd could come in handy, they generally won't be as common as cases when Berserker's +7 pairup Str boost and +12 Str cap over Swordmaster would be more helpful.

You'd be hard pressed to find a case in Awakening where something is strictly worse in every way than another thing, but there are definitely things that are generally more useful.

The main reason Swordmasters are almost nonexistent in Apo teams is that their availability is completely eclipsed by Assassins, who have equal Spd, better Skl, better Str, Bow access, and generally better pairup bonuses.

Got it, thanks.

I'm using Berserkers and Sages because they have the brute force necessary to break through enemy defenses even when they're in the back line (without active skill).

There is a big difference in attacking a 50 defense enemy with 55, 60 or 65 attack.

55-50 = 5 dmg

60-50 = 10 dmg

65-50 = 15 dmg

I increased the raw damage by 30%, but the effective damage dealt was increased by 200%. These simple numbers are just made up to showcase why raw power is important.

If this hypothetical character deals 4 blows to the enemy, he will do 20 damage at 55 atk and 60 damage at 65 atk.

20 damage won't kill the enemy, 60 damage will. And you want to kill for reasons which are obvious.

Seems so obvious now that you point it out.

Yet another question: In your team from the other thread, several pairs dont add up to 60 speed without barracks bonus, e.g. MUxLucina (unless I'm doing the calculations wrong or forgetting another stat source). With my current children whom I'm trying to build into a team for a practice run, it certainly doesn't seem possible to get many pairs over the 60 threshold with barracks; if children are paired optimally from the beginning, is it?

As for said team, so far I have:

Lon'qu!Laurent@Sorcerer, TF/hex/anathema/mag+2/vengeance x Donnel!Nah@sage, TF/GF/DSu+/mag+2/demoiselle because nah looks too slow to do anything else and don't know what else to do with either of them;

Olivia!Lucina@Assassin, SF/Luna/Aether/DS+/GF x Ma!Mu@Assassin, SF/Anathema/Hex/Str+2/idk because I don't see how else to meet the 60 spd threshold with that pair; and

Lucina!Morgan@Hero, SF/GF/Str+2/Vengeance/spd+2 x Gregor!Yarne@Berserker, SwdBr/LncBr/Str+2/wrath which I believe comes out to 61 spd

Also have Chrom@sniper, RK/Luna/Aether/BF/DS+ and I assume I'll pair him with sumia, even though they arent married. I'm looking at anyone who can get vengeance and sage/sniper/hero(/assassin if i need the speed, which I will) as a lead with slower sages and berserkers as support. I suspect I'm going to have issues getting the none-morgan pairs over the speed hump though.

It's really starting to look like meeting the thresholds with the pairings of this file and the conditions set forth might be beyond my abilities, if possible at all, but given what you all have said I still want to flesh a team out to gain some experience with secret apo before starting a new file for a more serious attempt.

[Knusperkeks]

Yet another question: In your team from the other thread, several pairs dont add up to 60 speed without barracks bonus, e.g. MUxLucina (unless I'm doing the calculations wrong or forgetting another stat source). With my current children whom I'm trying to build into a team for a practice run, it certainly doesn't seem possible to get many pairs over the 60 threshold with barracks; if children are paired optimally from the beginning, is it?

There is opportunity cost connected to everything. Some parents give good modifiers, some parents give good skills, very few provide both. You'll have to juggle around and look for a result which suits your taste.

In my run, four supporters which provide great speed and damage output from the back are Gerome, Inigo and Yarne and Avatar.

Gerome has 82 atk flat

Inigo has 80

Yarne has 78 (all assume 5/3 Brave Axe) which is very strong.

On top of that, they give +8 speed to the frontline.

As a comparison, +Speed -Def Avatar has 77 Atk base.

As for hit(again, 5/3 BA):

Gerome: 165

Inigo: 170

Yarne: 171+20

Avatar: 167+20

[spoiler=Rant about some Berserkers having hit issues]I thought that Swordbreaker and Axebreaker are enough, and that Lancebreaker is not needed, since Gerome has innate +20 hit against Lances from WTA, but that's really not enough.

I'm considering to drop Axebreaker for Lancebreaker, or drop Strength+2 to get all three breakers on Gerome. He misses high avoid lance users regularly, even when he's using a 3/5 brave axe, it's a pain in the rear.

Inigo is not so bad, so I gave him Galeforce instead of a third breaker, but he isn't also the best unit to lead as, since Kjelle's Atk drops from 76(lead) to 65(support), which leads to the issue I outlined in my earlier post where the damage decreases dramatically the more your attack approaches the enemy defensive stat.

The pair is working well enough to pick of stragglers though, so in that case, his Galeforce is justified. Same with Nah.

[spoiler=Nah is a good girl~ <3]

My Nah is nothing if not reliable. She has great hit ratings, and she will never miss if she is in the lead, even against Anna who sits on the throne, Donnel!Nah has 239 hit prior to Hex/Anathema/Charm, which is really overkill(not that I would ever attack Anna with Nah, it's just to illustrate). The price she pays is little offensive power (only 74 Atk as lead, no offensive proc). Overall I'm happy with Nah. She is nothing special, but she is the one unit I think of when the situations comes

Stahl!Laurent@Sage has 69 with 5/3 Celica's as support and doesn't give extraordinary speed to Morgan, but Morgan is the only one who can still keep up with the fastest even without 5 speed from Berserker pair-up.

I know Laurent is holding her back, but I couldn't find a way to turn Laurent into a usable Berserker (without hurting others in my team), and my Morgan is the only one who can still perform admirably even while carrying this Laurent.

Gerome, Laurent, Inigo, Nah, Yarne, Brady, Avatar. They are the Big Seven™

They're the supports who can destroy enemies the best from the back. Excuse the silly WW2 reference. I've been playing too much kancolle as of late.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Czar_Yoshi]

Noire deserves honorable mention for having Hex, Anathema and Hit+20 all at base.

It's really starting to look like meeting the thresholds with the pairings of this file and the conditions set forth might be beyond my abilities, if possible at all, but given what you all have said I still want to flesh a team out to gain some experience with secret apo before starting a new file for a more serious attempt.

And now you begin to see what you're up against :p

There's not going to be a way for you to get all your pairs to those thresholds, and even if there was the cost to other stats with large cumulative effects but no technical maximum for performance gains likely won't be worth it. You're just going to have to deal with enemies who have a very high chance of surviving you and all the resulting dropped kills (which both make timed sections hectic and put you in danger if you're not on the ball with Rescue management). Still, even getting some to them will do you a world of good (there's no other way to safely kill the Helswath Berserkers without a ton of Vengeance Snipers, for example).

Don't use Sorcs. They fall into the same bin as Swordmasters with regard to Sages: Sages have more Mag, Skl, Spd, and weapons. Sorcs have an edge in defenses but everything's going to be 2HKOing you either way so it makes no difference.

[Knusperkeks]

I agree, Noire is awesome, I love her so much. Without her, my run would have been impossible.