If nothing else, the major antagonists should actually be effective.

[RandomSwordmaster]

That's not acceptable. The game never properly addresses what the Grimleal get out of helping Grima. No civilization has had ''destroy humanity'' as a cause among the major wirshipers. Satanists at large don't. Neither did the worshipers of Quetzalcoatl.

Maybe they were misled into thinking they would be spared or something? Fanatacism? Psychotic leader? Mind control?

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Maybe they were misled into thinking they would be spared or something? Fanatacism? Psychotic leader? Mind control?

maybe, we don't know because the game never really gives an answer.

[NekoKnight]

The Abrahamic religions have a "I get saved and everyone who doesn't worship the being I do gets destroyed" thing going for them so I don't think it's that much of a stretch to assume that the Grimleil believe they'll be getting a privileged position...wherever they go next.

[blah the Prussian]

Even if religion is the opiate of the masses, I seriously doubt anyone would pick doomsday cult over crappy monarch.

[Saladus]

Except that the canonical scriptures have assorted examples of the Abrahamic god aiding His believers. While there are no grounds to say that Grima would be even half as helpful.

[Walker]

The Abrahamic religions have a "I get saved and everyone who doesn't worship the being I do gets destroyed" thing going for them

Which ones? Christianity used to have that, but it doesn't anymore. Islam (yes, that's included in Abrahamic) only has that in radicalism (which isn't really Islam), and Judaism itself never had it to begin with (Google "Noahide"). [i am Saint Walker, Blue Lantern. It's my job to know this stuff]

I'm annoyed that "Grima" shares a name with a minor Lord of the Rings villain, Grima Wormtongue. Who gets killed by hobbits.

Edited April 13, 2015 by StWalker

[Irysa]

Which ones? Christianity used to have that, but it doesn't anymore.

This is false. Look at Calvinism.

Or this

John 8:24 New International Version (NIV)

²⁴ I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Mark 16:16 New International Version (NIV)

¹⁶ Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Irysa

[Walker]

I'm not going to pick and choose Christianity sects out of the several thousand that exist. Catholism and Protestant represents the majority. Also, this forum is the wrong place for religous debates. This is discussing how Grima was a fail of a villain, and FE If should have a better one.

[Irysa]

Calvinism is what most Protestants follow though. It is by no means a minor sect.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Irysa

[Walker]

Calvinism is what most Protestants follow though. It is by no means a minor sect.

My apologies. I thought Calvinism wasn't mainstream nowindays. I have some studying to do.

Grima's a stupid name. That I am sure of.

[Thief]

Halfway through the game, the villain(s) should demonstrate their prowess by successfully scheming and killing every one in your army, leaving them children to pick up from where their parents failed to succeed.

Wait...

[Irysa]

My apologies. I thought Calvinism wasn't mainstream nowindays. I have some studying to do.

Well, you may be more familiar with the term "Presbyterianism" which is basically rooted in the exact same things anyway. Although I suppose the word "most" was perhaps incorrect but it makes up a very sizable chunk of Protestant denominations, and is among the major three.

[NekoKnight]

Which ones? Christianity used to have that, but it doesn't anymore. Islam (yes, that's included in Abrahamic) only has that in radicalism (which isn't really Islam), and Judaism itself never had it to begin with (Google "Noahide"). [i am Saint Walker, Blue Lantern. It's my job to know this stuff]

I'm annoyed that "Grima" shares a name with a minor Lord of the Rings villain, Grima Wormtongue. Who gets killed by hobbits.

Are we forgetting about that whole Apocalypse thing in the Book of Revelations? It's biblical canon that God will decide to kill all life on earth at some point. Anyway, I'm not here to debate religion, just to correct someone who claimed that there are no Grima-esque "destroy the world" religions in real life.

[Walker]

Are we forgetting about that whole Apocalypse thing in the Book of Revelations? It's biblical canon that God will decide to kill all life on earth at some point.

You are misinterprenting that. If you want to fully understand the Apocalypse (which I by no means claim to), it's best to study it in the original archaic Hebrew.

Anyway, I'm not here to debate religion, just to correct someone who claimed that there are no Grima-esque "destroy the world" religions in real life.

If you aren't here to debate religions, stop bringing it up! And I never said that "destroy-the-world" religions don't exist. Case in point, you have the Ragnarok in Norse Mythology. Pick something like that, not something controversial.

[NekoKnight]

You are misinterprenting that. If you want to fully understand the Apocalypse (which I by no means claim to), it's best to study it in the original archaic Hebrew.

If you aren't here to debate religions, stop bringing it up! And I never said that "destroy-the-world" religions don't exist. Case in point, you have the Ragnarok in Norse Mythology. Pick something like that, not something controversial.

I brought up the topic of Abramatic religions in response to this post by Saladus, not yours.

That's not acceptable. The game never properly addresses what the Grimleal get out of helping Grima. No civilization has had ''destroy humanity'' as a cause among the major worshipers. Satanists at large don't. Neither did the worshipers of Quetzalcoatl.

That said, Apocalype isn't talked about a lot except for the more fanatical fringe groups so it's not a perfect analogy.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm annoyed that "Grima" shares a name with a minor Lord of the Rings villain, Grima Wormtongue. Who gets killed by hobbits.

Hey, to be fair, the series repeatedly shows that hobbits are pretty badass, despite their appearances! Quite apart from the two who save the world, there's the fact that one of them co-kills the general of the enemy army. ... but yes, that name overlap still meant I too had trouble taking FE13's villain seriously.

I don't have much to add to the religious argument, though I will second that the Grimleal are unbelievable and undeveloped. We could ascribe motivations for them to act the way they do, as some people are attempting in this thread, but that sort of motivation is important enough that the writers were negligent not to expand upon it themselves.

[Irysa]

Well to be fair, blame the localisers, not IS. Grima's name is Gimurē / Gimurei in Jpn Awakening.

To be fair though, that...could well be seen as another LotR association in Gimli when romanised. <_<

Edited April 13, 2015 by Irysa

[Saladus]

Are we forgetting about that whole Apocalypse thing in the Book of Revelations? It's biblical canon that God will decide to kill all life on earth at some point. Anyway, I'm not here to debate religion, just to correct someone who claimed that there are no Grima-esque "destroy the world" religions in real life.

Christians aren't required push along the destruction of the world or humanity. I guess you're also disregarding Satan being cast into a lake of burning sulfur, and God dwelling with humanity in the New Jerusalem after The Last Judgement. Put in assorted examples of God aiding His worshipers in canonical scriptures, and your example doesn't help you. Edited April 16, 2015 by Saladus

[Walker]

Well to be fair, blame the localisers, not IS. Grima's name is Gimurē / Gimurei in Jpn Awakening.

To be fair though, that...could well be seen as another LotR association in Gimli when romanised. <_<

I think Gimurei is actually itself based upon Grima. And all blame aside, I never once took Grima seriously.

[Shadow Knight]

Hmm, You are entitled to your opinion here but imo I have to completely disagree with you on the effectiveness Awakening's villains.

Gangrel: Waltzed into the Plegian capital, captured Emmeryn, killed Phila and Emmeryn's personal pegasus guard, trapped the Avatar and Chrom, forced them to retreat, and survived the final battle between his forces and the Feroxi/Ylissean alliance.

Walhart: Conquered pretty much everything he stared at minus Ferox, Ylisse, and Plegia. Hell even the Feroxi, mightiest army on the continent, were afraid of them. And he almost killed Nick Fur.... cough cough ahem, Basilio

Validar: Raised an overpowered Robin who is essentially a superhuman being, Wisely kept his ground troops out of the war against Walhart, managed to trap Chrom and the avatar, managed to force the avatar to hand over the Fire Emblem and wound Chrom. Keep in mind here that the only reason he was unsuccessful with his goals was because the Avatar received a vision about killing Chrom and the 2nd generation had to GO BACK IN TIME TO CHANGE WHAT HAD HAPPENED. In other words his success was guaranteed and had already happened. They had to re-write history so he lost.

Grima: One goal: Release the shadow dragon and prevent the past from changing. You raise a good question though, why did Grima not simply release himself instead of Robin? Easy answer. He probably figured that if Robin did not become the vessel of Grima than he might not exist in the future for the same reason Lucina at first refused to give her identity to her father. That was the entire purpose of Naga's time ritual: To change the past for the sake of the future. Unfortunately it turns out that instead of one timeline we have parallel timelines. Once Lucina realizes that Chrom has reached S with someone and she has already been born she no longer worries about the butterfly effect.

Before Grima knew that the cycle did not need to be repeated he tried to replay the events. When that no longer became possible after Robin beat the mind control he realized that he didn't need Robin anymore and he still existed. All bets were off. He simply released the dragon within. Finally he can't be completely defeated unless the Avatar sacrifices himself. Otherwise he comes back many years later. This nearly prevents his total destruction which is the goal of Awakening's heroes because all of them don't want to sacrifice Robin, their close comrade and friend, (Imo it should have only been the A and S support members who don't want to sacrifice you). And Robin does not know for sure whether he will survive or not. In other words Grima manages to release the Shadow dragon despite unfair future interference and is pretty much immortal.

Enough about Awakening though, this is just my opinion and why. I don't feel like debating.

I want a true mix of straight villains and unclear villains. I don't want black and white nor do I want grey. I would rather hear both sides' stories and then see the actions performed by each and decide for myself who are heroes and villains. Sure perhaps Hoshido is more peaceful but maybe their bystander syndrome has allowed other nations to suffer. Perhaps Nohr seeks glory but maybe for some this glory is the unification of several states who have been warring for years. They shouldn't tell us this is the bad guy and here are the good guys. It would be much better if we could decide that for ourselves.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Shadow Knight

[Saladus]

Gangrel: Waltzed into the Plegian capital, captured Emmeryn, killed Phila and Emmeryn's personal pegasus guard, trapped the Avatar and Chrom, forced them to retreat, and survived the final battle between his forces and the Feroxi/Ylissean alliance.

He failed at every major task, or the task backfired on him. Capturing Emmeryn led to a mass desertion.

Walhart: Conquered pretty much everything he stared at minus Ferox, Ylisse, and Plegia. Hell even the Feroxi, mightiest army on the continent, were afraid of them. And he almost killed Nick Fur.... cough cough ahem, Basilio

Backstory. And Basilio still being alive made it that nobody in Walhart's army bothered to make sure he was actually dead.

Validar: Raised an overpowered Robin who is essentially a superhuman being, Wisely kept his ground troops out of the war against Walhart, managed to trap Chrom and the avatar, managed to force the avatar to hand over the Fire Emblem and wound Chrom. Keep in mind here that the only reason he was unsuccessful with his goals was because the Avatar received a vision about killing Chrom and the 2nd generation had to GO BACK IN TIME TO CHANGE WHAT HAD HAPPENED. In other words his success was guaranteed and had already happened. They had to re-write history so he lost.

So Validar is a huge failure outside of backstory.

Grima: One goal: Release the shadow dragon and prevent the past from changing. You raise a good question though, why did Grima not simply release himself instead of Robin? Easy answer. He probably figured that if Robin did not become the vessel of Grima than he might not exist in the future for the same reason Lucina at first refused to give her identity to her father. That was the entire purpose of Naga's time ritual: To change the past for the sake of the future. Unfortunately it turns out that instead of one timeline we have parallel timelines. Once Lucina realizes that Chrom has reached S with someone and she has already been born she no longer worries about the butterfly effect.

If Grima cared that much about not changing the future then he shouldn't have brought an undead army with him.

Before Grima knew that the cycle did not need to be repeated he tried to replay the events. When that no longer became possible after Robin beat the mind control he realized that he didn't need Robin anymore and he still existed. All bets were off. He simply released the dragon within. Finally he can't be completely defeated unless the Avatar sacrifices himself. Otherwise he comes back many years later. This nearly prevents his total destruction which is the goal of Awakening's heroes because all of them don't want to sacrifice Robin, their close comrade and friend, (Imo it should have only been the A and S support members who don't want to sacrifice you). And Robin does not know for sure whether he will survive or not. In other words Grima manages to release the Shadow dragon despite unfair future interference and is pretty much immortal.

So Grima wasted time for a woman and a bunch of gemstones she didn't need.

[Ike's True Descendant]

He failed at every major task, or the task backfired on him. Capturing Emmeryn led to a mass desertion.

Backstory. And Basilio still being alive made it that nobody in Walhart's army bothered to make sure he was actually dead.

So Validar is a huge failure outside of backstory.

If Grima cared that much about not changing the future then he shouldn't have brought an undead army with him.

So Grima wasted time for a woman and a bunch of gemstones she didn't need.

I think that his reasons made sense, and besides it is a game. i mean you are suppose to win the game. the bad guys are suppose to do dumb mistakes that casue you to win the end, even if it makes no sense. Plus you can do anything in video game, even more when they allow time alteration allowed as part of the plot.

[TKHikaru13]

While I was pretty fond of Gangrel, I agree that a lot of Awakening's villains were missing something. That something is a defined goal with a genuine payoff.

I think If's villains really need that, a defined goal with a beneficial result. Example: Garon. "I want total control of my country and wipe out Hoshido." Why? "So I can stomp out any challenges to my reign as king." Pretty cliche, but it has a logical end result. Garon wants to remain king, so he takes the steps to ensure nothing happens to him.

Another example: Dancer(A lot of people are speculating that she's a villain). "I want to destroy both Nohr and Hoshido." Why? "If I end them, I end war, and peace will return." While Dancer's method is extreme, her end goal is clear. She wants peace to come back, so Dancer is going to end the war by any means necessary.

Give your villain a clear goal, and their actions mean something. Garon kidnaps Kamui and both strengthens himself and weakens Hoshido. If Dancer turns out to be evil, her allying herself with you becomes a method of breaking the spirit of her enemy.

End the world so you can be eaten? Validar could have thrown himself to a pack of lions and got the same result.

[Bovinian]

Not too sure about the older games, but that dancer example was pretty much already done by RD's plot and I would hope that for this game IS takes an approach that wasn't really explored by any of the past entries. Still beats "evil guy revives big ass dragon to end the world" though

[arvilino]

maybe, we don't know because the game never really gives an answer.

Even if religion is the opiate of the masses, I seriously doubt anyone would pick doomsday cult over crappy monarch.

I'm pretty sure(and by pretty sure I mean this is a repeat of that other thread in the Awakening forum) the game says that the Grimleal gave the plegians solace and order. Does it really matter if it's a cult about worshipping a destructive god if it's the only escape from either Gangrel's despotic rule and the chaos after his death?

The following is from the script which outline how Validar through Aversa used Gangrel to increase the following of the Grimleal religion through making it an escape from his his cruel reign. Then they used Gangrel as the fall guy for the war against Ylisse to kill Emmeryn and then used the chaos produced by his death to lure even more people into the Grimleal.

Chrom

To hell with your destiny. I'll write a new ending.

Aversa

Oh ho ho, so now you believe you can change fate? And here I thought your exalted sister had delusions of grandeur...

Chrom

We've done it already.

Aversa

Your victory over sad little Gangrel? Or perhaps Walhart's defeat? Those were meant to happen. They were preordained. You are just another fool in motley, capering on the stage!

Lissa

But...what about Emmeryn!

Aversa

You changed only the method of her death. Either way, she was planted in the ground...

Frederick

But that was Gangrel's will... Not yours... Not Validar's...

Aversa

You aren't listening. All of this—every word and action—has been orchestrated... Gangrel held the exalt in contempt, yes, so Validar and I used him. In life AND death. The king's demise threw Plegia into chaos. It drove the people to Grima... Now their life force and rancor can be laid before the fell dragon en masse.

Robin:

You once worshipped Grima, correct? As a member of the Grimleal?

Gangrel:

Pah, those wrinkled old warts with their dusty tomes? I was Grimleal in name only. Course, it was the faith of the realm, so I knew most of its rituals.

Robin:

Religion can be a powerful tool for uniting people behind a single cause. I wager Aversa used it to convince your subjects to take up arms?

Gangrel:

...Perhaps. But in the end, I'd say she used me as much as anyone.

Robin:

And what did the people of Plegia really think of the faith?

Gangrel:

Think? Ha! They DIDN'T think! Between my iron-fisted rule and Aversa's inquisitions, they had no choice about it. ... But as I said, it was a cruel time.

Robin:

Your people were cowed by your political might, but the temples offered solace...

Gangrel:

Ah, yes. The solace of the damned.

Robin:

Thank you, Gangrel.

Gangrel:

Hmm? What for?

Robin:

We can't help the people of Plegia if we don't understand their situation. Our cause is simple--to save this world and all the people in it. And that includes the poor wretches of Plegia who remain in the thrall of Grima.

Edited April 15, 2015 by arvilino