Ragefest IV: Trolls & Tribulations

[Eliwan]

There needs to be RFV because HAIR.

[47948201]

[insert the same opinion of "savestateless runs" I've had for years]

[MarkyJoe1990]

Hey guys, I decided to drag HeyItsKyo into a stream with me. What are we playing?

HIS SUBMISSION. SAVESTATELESS.

Lives will be lost. Kittens will be kicked, and Evil Lyn's will be fooked.

http://www.hitbox.tv/MarkyJoe1990

[MrNight48]

I have noticed fans kept comparing it to MN as well but...well I just took that as a sign to try harder.

Anyway I am already starting on RFV's maps and I already have a theme/concepts in mind. I am going to share them so other creators know what I'm going to do and not overlap jokes/themes by accident. For this I be trying to make this hard. ball busting, "fuck your standards you're in my house now" hard. Also far less catered to marc but more for the veterans. However it will be harder to cheese, especially with the new discoveries in AI codes.

MrNight's RFV plans (marc don't look)

Theme: meaning of life. basically to explore the concept of why should one do the things they do and is there a point to any of it. should there be a point to it? things of that nature.

+ Luck weapons 2.0, I always hated that marc kind of bans the opportunity for random deaths from combat. Risk is a part of the challenge, it should reward the player for tempting fate. So with these new luck weapons, they lower your luck into the minus, which means enemies have a higher chance to hit you and have the chance to crit you in exchange for more power and accuracy. They will also be the last ditch weapon for the player if they manage their inventory poorly.

story: MyUnit who is named Fore Wall/ Marc/ Ghast? (this submission might be the 2nd half of the game where the first is for MAFC 2)/ ??? are part of a treasure hunting group who just got the Rage Emblem from this crypt. Now they must escape with their lives.

+ Maps, its a multi-parter with multiple maps but done in a way where traps will not overlap into other maps.

+ Part 1, The Final Money Man cameo, with a dark twist.

Now that marc is ready for darker stories (I seriously could have sworn he said not to do them but hey, going to take advantage) I am doing the money man I always wanted to do. In this map, the player must run from the 1 hp dead cursed money man. He will do everything in his power to suicide against you because when he dies, he turns into a mist that turns the attacker into a gold statue, keeping them in his tomb forever.

tl;dr, escape or hilariously die to a 1 hp noob

+ Part 2, flooding mechanic, with a vengeance.

taking a concept I had in a non-submitted ragefest submission and applying it here. make your way to the entrance before getting completely flooded out. here is where I can also make the flood force the player into a mini defense mission. protect and grab the green unit in the center of the map along the way. the green unit becomes a playable unit in the next part.

tl;dr, moving defense mission, timer is getting flooded out.

+ Part 3, Maze of Madness, here is where you learn to fear

Not going to spoil too much so will keep it short. fire/poison/lightning traps in a pitch dark maze. Can you survive the darkness?

+ Part 4, Mini-Boss buffet

depending on how you did in the maze, you get to face a special mmo designed mini-boss.

boss a- beat down fast or healers will keep spawning to save their oni-sama, take to long and a army of healers will make it clear you lost.

boss b- you beaten them before but can you beat them all at the same time? The super league of tutorial bandits have formed a union to kick your mc ass. Damas/Batta/O'Neill will stand together but together they must fall or they will just keep coming back.

Part 5, Final Boss, MrNight

Custom animation at least as the katar class. Here is where I personally come to break you with my personal skill: "psyche shift"

not going to spoil it because I plan to submit this into kirby's hack for bosses as well.

final part, Answers

+Here the player must respond to my questions and what are they fighting for in the most dangerous map of all. A open room. no pillars, no walls, no throne, nothing. If the answers are not satisfactory, you will lose hope quickly.

On a mountain of guardians, the party escapes to freedom with the rage emblem.

[TheMoniker]

I also would like to express support for EMBLEM WARRIORS 2: THE FULL-FLEDGED HACK OF AWESOME. I'd play it.

[MarkyJoe1990]

Alright guys, today is the day.

I'm gonna start F*EXE

[RandomSwordmaster]

Alright guys, today is the day.

I'm gonna start F*EXE

ITS THE BEGINNING OF THE END!!!

[MarkyJoe1990]

So I recorded some of the final submission.

... Meh.

[MCProductions]

So I recorded some of the final submission.

... Meh.

"Concerned"

[SilverHairedFreak25]

So I recorded some of the final submission.

... Meh.

Uh-oh.

I take it we're not ending RFIV on a high note, but rather a *makes fart noise with tongue*?

[MarkyJoe1990]

I think the most accurate thing I can say about the submission is that it is intentionally designed to be tedious and unfun. Take that as you will, I guess.

I don't like it.

[RandomSwordmaster]

Well it was intended to be a sequel to F.EXE...which was very tedious, and didn't appear all that fun...in retrospect.

[47948201]

My original goal was to meet a request for difficulty with difficulty.

But the contest focus has shifted from that--and in fact, looking back, none of the winners have ever been super difficult; we've seen especially in this latest iteration that the hardest games are some of the least favorites, because they give less of a space for writing and creativity to shine, what with constant roadblocks and silent thinking through options. It feels like difficulty was never the top focus, but was touted of as being about equally valuable and important to comedy--after all, it's listed first in the abstract, and what gives the contest its name. But difficulty itself isn't the goal, it never was the goal. Difficulty in moderation allows Marc to appreciate a game's design by not blazing through it, but a very difficult game is not what is desired.

But so now that we've been starting to see this fact, the actual value of the difficulty-based "rage" in Ragefest, if a new goal can be made with this game, that is, to give both motivation and an example showing how the contest needs to reform, refocus, and improve, then at least I'll be glad to have helped.

(As an addendum, I realize there are other routes to rage than difficulty, but we've established unfairness is also unacceptable, and that the present best use of writing is comedy, not rage. However, this is in part exactly why the fundamental idea of Ragefest needs to change)

Edited April 28, 2016 by 47948201

[MarkyJoe1990]

I need to speak up about this...

It's clear to me that PwnageKirby put loads of effort into this submission, which is why I feel really bad about this when I say I have no desire to play it any further. This submission is basically the apex of what Ragefest is actually about... and as we all established, that is not what people truly want with this contest.

If you don't know what I mean, let me explain. The goal of Ragefest is to make something extremely frustrating, but funny. The appeal of the former, at least to me, is that people love to see other people rage on the internet. They like to see them get animated and call bullshit and act over the top.

There are two issues with this however. The first being that it's easy to get me mad with just cheap, effortless design. It doesn't encourage quality at all, and submissions tend to get better reception when they are high quality, not because they are rage inducing. Based on the comments on my videos, the three submissions favored to win are Emblem Warriors, Tales Of Purt, and Ragefest Revengeance. All high quality submissions with fairly low amount of frustration.

The second issue is that there's a certain threshold to how far you can take frustrating design before all enthusiasm and drive to play the submission is lost, and that's sort of what happened here with PwnageKirby's submission. In a way, it's something of a masterpiece in how much passion and effort went into making it the most unplayable submission in existence, but at the same time, I'm painfully aware that this isn't gonna be enjoyable to watch. Once I realize that winning is just a matter of trial & error and save scumming endlessly, I become resigned and depressed and can't get myself to talk.

So that's sort of where I'm at right now. There's nothing to be gained from playing the submission, since the footage itself stops being enjoyable to watch after a certain point, and is inevitably going to continue being unenjoyable to watch. Yet at the same time, I'm obligated to play it because those are the rules. I could possibly disqualify it since it seems to break some rules, but I also don't feel confident in that choice since a few hours of play time doesn't seem like enough to make a judgement, and I trust PwnageKirby is competent enough to not submit a rule breaking submission.

So with all that in mind, we absolutely need to talk about reforming Ragefest. Like. Now.

So let me start by saying I think Ragefest shouldn't be about rage anymore. There shouldn't even be a sadist award. Hell, I think I should make a new contest that has the same spirit of Ragefest, but without any references to frustration, and instead encouraging quality level design and humor. The rage is inevitable, because this is Fire Emblem, so maybe rage isn't something we should aspire towards.

Edited April 28, 2016 by MarkyJoe1990

[Maritisa]

Well on the subject of this hack itself, I'll join you in co-commentary if you think that'll help. There's also the idea of switching roles on the matter too, but that's kinda iffy since RF4 hasn't "really"done that? Despite being a co-dev I've never actually played the thing, I just bugfixed and submitted assets, so I'm more or less blind on the rest of it. >.>;

On the bigger subject though... Well yeah, we've discussed this to death honestly. But I think you need to fit a niche. MAFC feels like it wants "Fun and easy" submissions, whereas markyjoe's contest whatever its name shall be wants complex and advanced level design. Something highly refined, stuff for people wanting to test their FE level design prowess while providing humor for good measure to make for something both engaging for Marc to play and for the viewers to watch.

Actually, that's probably a good keyword here, engaging. Something that gets both parties involved invested in the submission, both in its narrative, however it may be driven, and its gameplay. A chapter which is challenging enough to provoke thought and strategy but not so complex that it just turns into a puzzle with few solutions.

Marc has mentioned, mostly to myself and the Chronicles of Lussaria chat, I think, that he really liked the Rondo of Madness approach, actually. (Although he said he needs to replay it to see if it's not his nostalgia deceiving him.) The concept of what it does, anyway. "I like submissions that feel lived in." It's part of why Ragefest Revengeance stood out so much, because it kind of pulled that too. If you remember, Marc didn't actually "100%" that submission but still beat it without being punished for that. Lots of things for you to do and see, yet most of them just optional; stuff you could miss but still get by fine without. "Where the map is like a canvas for events to take place within", as opposed to being a puzzle which needs solved. I like the idea too, it makes the "relation" with the game feel more personal, like your experience with it can vary wildly from someone else's.

That's the spirit of Fire Emblem, after all. That's why permadeath was made as a core mechanic originally, why RNG was used in such a central way, why growths are randomized rather than flat bonuses... Hell that's even why we have weapon ranks accompanied with classes who can use more than one weapon, I feel. Everything gives you different ways to tackle situations thrown at you and accommodate for what the game retaliates with. Ideally we want submissions that play in such a way that the viewer feels inclined to play them themselves, do things differently, see what could have happened, so on and so forth...

I don't think this change in premise "overlapping" with Ghast's contest is an issue at all. The two are, or rather can be, designed to fit different niches. And honestly Ragefest as its original concept doesn't really fill any. We want stuff that will spur the community into experimenting with ideas, testing the waters with concepts and ideas, bringing new stuff to the table, getting new names out there... We've already had a few cases already where people did neat stuff that people would love to see more of, Emblem Warriors being the most prominent example. I think we should aim for more stuff like that, but just folks proving their worth at normal FE level design is all well and good, too. Fundamental comprehension of game design should always come before the implementation of gimmicks, and Marc feels like a good person to be the judge of that sort of thing. _{^{We don't want to do what Fates: Revelation did, after all. >.>}}

I hope something gets worked out, though. Contests like these are what make our community feel alive, they're the things that spur folks into making things, motivate people to try new ideas, and bring new names into the light. One thing that does make me a bit disappoint is that such a direction shift encourages making things less personalized to Marc, which I mean, while that's definitely a good thing as we've heard several times throughout RF4 that Marc doesn't like the abundance of in-jokes... I also kind of liked the "Ragefest continuity" we had going. It's hella contrived and ridiculous and probably in theory worse than the zelda timeline but dammit I'm a sucker for that kind of thing.

But that's just me. xD;

I think things will work out for the better either way it takes, and we can still probably have the occasional Marky submission every now and again too without any problems anyway.

[MarkyJoe1990]

Mari.

I don't think I could have said it any better. You even got the "personalized" part right, and I sort of wanted to tackle that, but I couldn't think of a way to make it sound good. =X

Right now, I'm stuck on the new name of Ragefest, or if it should even HAVE one. Like... a few people mentioned that if Ragefest is called Ragefest, and the rules discourage rage inducing stuff, it might put off people who came into it for what the name itself implies.

But changing the name removes that sense of familiarity and stuff too.

[47948201]

MAFC feels like it wants "Fun and easy" submissions, whereas markyjoe's contest whatever its name shall be wants complex and advanced level design. Something highly refined, stuff for people wanting to test their FE level design prowess while providing humor for good measure to make for something both engaging for Marc to play and for the viewers to watch.

I particularly like this idea--Marc is good at FE and able to both handle and appreciate more complex mechanics and levels. So maybe Ghast's contest should focus on an "accessible fun" that even FE newcomers can enjoy, whereas what we have here should be something that give more experienced players to both create and enjoy a deeper set of games.

The branding still wants addressing, but I think this sort of approach to the contest would be a huge benefit.

[Baldrick]

In terms of keeping the name recognition but changing the tone of the contest, what if there were other "hosts" and you took the role of a co-commentator?

Because you're not directly playing the submission, the focus could shift to giving you things to talk about, comedy and interesting rather than frustrating game design.

[MarkyJoe1990]

That doesn't fix the main problem, which is that the contest on paper encourages bad game design.

[Baldrick]

If you were replying to me, I think it would. The "cheap, effortless" design wouldn't get as much of a reaction out of you if you're not directly dealing with it.

A submission like Emblem Warriors would get a similar reaction either way because it's more challenging than annoying.

[MarkyJoe1990]

I'm not too sure. If I'm playing passenger seat, I imagine i'd react more since I'm more under pressure to say stuff. Main player has an excuse cause they have to focus, but I would have none. I also imagine myself saying, like, "dude I'm sorry you gotta deal with this."

I also don't have many people I would consider co-commenting with, and the few that I do aren't interested in playing ragefest submissions.

But this is all beside the point. I'm trying to prevent people from aspiring to make badly designed chapters in the first place rather than giving myself the room to talk about how the chapter is bad. I do that anyway.

Eh... Maybe I'm missing something here, but I really do think I should change the title of ragefest, make new rules and accept the viewer drop off.

[Baldrick]

Just change the rules and call it a day, then. Even if the submissions aren't actually rage-inducing, if you play up your reaction it would still be amusing.

I think that if you have a strong reaction the name "Ragefest" would still be fitting.

[MrNight48]

...

so what I got out of this is "make your own hack that people would like to play and we'll play it" which is basically the communities FE E3.

[Moblin Major General]

^So this will be like the San Diego Comic Con to FE E3? One for the techies, and one for the fans. Genius idea, I like it.

[MarkyJoe1990]

...

so what I got out of this is "make your own hack that people would like to play and we'll play it" which is basically the communities FE E3.

I guess. To be honest, it feels like this is what Ragefest always wanted to be anyway.

But uh... this whole renaming thing is becoming a huge issue, so it's time for me to cast a vote. BRB, making a video.