Ragefest IV: Trolls & Tribulations

[MarkyJoe1990]

i am confused marc

you ask people to make things that will make you mad and then when you get an overwhelming submission of things that will, in fact, make you mad, you say that they're not making you mad the way you want to be made mad

idk if anyone can really make a good submission if you change your mind like that

and don't even get me started on the "not paid enough" line like wao conceited

I work a cashier job at a discount store. Every tuesday, I have to spend four or more hours unloading a truck in a sweaty hot, smelly, and unsanitary back room. It sucks, but at least I get paid to do it, even if it's minimum wage.

With Alusq's submission, I spent about ten hours playing and recording the submission, and then for the next five days, I spent editing the footage, having absolutely zero fun doing it, and no doubt getting little cash for the work I put in.

This isn't conceited. It's showing some bloody self respect. Money wouldn't have crossed my mind if I at least enjoyed myself, but since I didn't, I'm thinking in pragmatic terms such as "What was gained from doing all of this?"

Edited August 6, 2015 by MarkyJoe1990

[Nanami Touko]

"What was gained from doing all of this?"

making other people happy?

idk maybe that's just me

[MarkyJoe1990]

making other people happy?

idk maybe that's just me

Admirable, but I can make people happy with my other videos as well. I don't need a Ragefest to accomplish that. =\

Not to mention, I'm just one youtuber. Out of millions. If I don't make people happy, they'll find someone else who will. And if not, there are millions of other forms of entertainment that they can find.

Edited August 6, 2015 by MarkyJoe1990

[Nintales]

Sorry Marky, but people enjoy more watching other suffer than anything else. =(

Was it because Alusq's submission was too long, or because you took a lot of time for P2?

[Nanami Touko]

I work a cashier job at a discount store. Every tuesday, I have to spend four or more hours unloading a truck in a sweaty hot, smelly, and unsanitary back room. It sucks, but at least I get paid to do it, even if it's minimum wage.

With Alusq's submission, I spent about ten hours playing and recording the submission, and then for the next five days, I spent editing the footage, having absolutely zero fun doing it, and no doubt getting little cash for the work I put in.

This isn't conceited. It's showing some bloody self respect. Money wouldn't have crossed my mind if I at least enjoyed myself, but since I didn't, I'm thinking in pragmatic terms such as "What was gained from doing all of this?"

Admirable, but I can make people happy with my other videos as well. I don't need a Ragefest to accomplish that. =\

Not to mention, I'm just one youtuber. Out of millions. If I don't make people happy, they'll find someone else who will.

then i'm not sure what you're doing this for

you're free to disagree with how i see making content, and i won't say anything else on the issue:

you made a contest for people to make a bunch of "rage" inducing hacks. they did, overwhelmingly so (you said yourself that you weren't expecting to get as many as you did), and they made them because, I assume, they want to see you play them. I'm sure these people spent way more time making these submissions than you did playing or recording them.

they didn't get paid

they don't get any recognition from anyone but you and your viewers

and yet you don't have the motivation to play them, because they take too much time, and because you don't get paid enough?

Marc, I don't get paid at all, and I still spend countless hours playing video games for people

even when I was getting paid, I was doing it because I made people happy, and if I never get paid for this again, that's fine

I'll still do it.

You're having people go out of their way to make stuff for you. No one had to do this. Everyone of these submitters could've ignored ragefest 4 and gone on with their lives, spending time on other projects or doing literally anything else. but they didn't, because they wanted to impress you/upset you/make you happy/make something fun.

It feels kinda shitty, at least to me, to say that you don't get paid enough to play their blood sweat and tears.

and if on top of that, if you're just going to say that there's someone else on youtube who can make them happy instead, it feels conceited. like ragefest is for you, not for the submitters, or your viewers.

[MarkyJoe1990]

Uuuuuuuugh. Trent, all I'm saying is that if things get too tedious and unfair, and clearly wouldn't make good video footage, I'm gonna cheat through it. Quit making a mountain of a mole hill.

Edited August 6, 2015 by MarkyJoe1990

[Nanami Touko]

i don't think it's a mole hill, but whatever you say~

[Nintales]

By the way, a few awards idea for you :

- Trolly Map : The most creative map design made to make you rage. Not the most tedious one, but the one that's so brillantly annoying and creative you can only say "well done".

- The puzzle : The most creative submission in terms of beating it. The submission leaving quite the few hints, and being brillant and subtle for that.

- The narrator : The submission with the best intro/ending and descriptions. Though it might be related to the funniest submission.

Honorable mention : The hard-worker : The guy you felt did a lot of work on his submission, but that still isn't good enough to be the victor.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Ragefest is too rage for MarkyJoe oh noe

[Nanami Touko]

btw if marc won't play your things without cheating because they're too hard or w/e i will, and live, just shoot me a PM ;3

[Feraligono]

Mindless tedium isn't just annoying - it's poor game design.

It slows down the pace of the game and provides neither challenge nor interesting content.

As a viewer, I don't want to see 40+ units each take their turns every enemy phase, I don't want to see turn after turn of bait and switch tactics, and I certainly don't want to see the player move their units one space at a time across a sea of green.

And as a player, I wouldn't want to be doing any of those. It's nothing but artificial difficulty.

[Klokinator]

What's sad is the only reason you have 6k subscribers instead of like, 1.5k subscribers, is because of ragefest. Not to mention, according to Socialblade, 2.1 million total video views, instead of say 200k.

Ragefest gave you some serious popularity on youtube, popularity and eyeballs that most people beg in comment sections for, and keeping it up means you're becoming even more popular yet you just keep complaining about the work? Let me tell you something, unless your name is Pewdiepie or you are a truly funny soul like Seananners, nobody got popular off of unedited commentary videos in the last few years. Nowadays, getting recognized means a ton of work. Do you think people like vSauce complain? If you think you have a lot of editing to do, that channel (Any any others with heavy amounts of animations) is much more intense. How about people like Mr. Sark? Every video he makes is a heavily edited nightmare and he is the only person who does it himself. He has the added bonus of being genuinely funny and creative too, which certainly helps, but you can't discount his editing as people comment about it all the time.

Nobody ever said being a Youtuber was easy. And when you set up a contest that deliberately is supposed to 'make you mad', you cannot treat people like dirt for achieving the goal just because they didn't tickle your masochist bone exactly the way you wanted them to. More than a dozen people collectively put at least a year or two's worth of work into all the entries seen in this contest, and crapping all over them is unacceptable. In fact, I know for a fact that PwnageKirby put a full year into hers alone. She's been working on it since F.EXE was finished. I also know her friend Mari has been working on her own ragefest for even longer.

My grandfather told me once that if you make a promise to people, you do not have the right to break it or complain about the burden. If people are putting their labor into something for you, then just like the family reunion when Aunt Marge gives you that tacky clothing item and expects a thank you along with a smile, you give her a thank you along with a smile. Even if Alusq's entry was absolutely awful for you to play, you're free to say it was awful, but constantly complaining about it, when it's finally done and over with, is just making you look really mean right now. I feel bad I even have to be grandpa Klok right now, but this complete disregard for others is seriously irritating me.

That's all I've got to say on it. Be more appreciative or don't do it anymore. I know of many people who would be happy, (if lesser qualified) to take the contest off your hands if you can't appreciate all the work people do for you.

[RandomSwordmaster]

I tried to limit the amount of tedium in my submission though in the end, i feel like there's still too much of it in there.

[Wayward Winds]

Admirable, but I can make people happy with my other videos as well. I don't need a Ragefest to accomplish that. =\

Not to mention, I'm just one youtuber. Out of millions. If I don't make people happy, they'll find someone else who will. And if not, there are millions of other forms of entertainment that they can find.

...I was going to do a bit of a spiel here but meh, others have already done so; I'll cut it down to two sentences. I suspect you'd actually be rather unhappy if you cancelled ragefest (or any other component of your channel), and half your fanbase wandered off. You've already gone on record stating that Ragefest gets you the most views (and my quick glance through your viewing figures seems to confirm that); try to take things calmly, for decisions made in a surge of rage are rarely the ones that you remain content in making.

(And why on earth did I respond to something you probably said on impulse and didn't mean?)

Anyway, on the subject of intentionally making you rage...

My opinion, not that it necessarily matters much, would be that a "true" ragey award should go to someone who makes you rage in an imaginative way, but one that doesn't impact gameplay in such a horrible way that it makes you scream if the hack is even mentioned again. Long winding paths filled with trees, or the "endless battle in the rain" of Marc's Special Day, they aren't difficult to make (and in the latter's case, poison swords made it worse), and they don't really result in true rage for long. The length of that particular battle was more a big "FU player", doubly so if the posion kicked in as well. On the other hand, the Evil Troubadours with their 100% accurate heal ally/kill enemy staves, or the invisible enemies hiding in the walls; inventive, will make you rage when you first get caught, but then you can actually deal with them. You can't deal with rain.

...If I'd pulled the rain trick, I'd have turned it off after a couple of turns. Short term rage as it caused Marc when he realised each turn was going to take minutes, but once I guaged the initial impact had worn off, I'd have pulled the game out of tedium and rummaged around for another trick to spring. Even "cheap" tactics can be legitimate causes for rage, but only if used in moderation.

[MarkyJoe1990]

What's sad is the only reason you have 6k subscribers instead of like, 1.5k subscribers, is because of ragefest. Not to mention, according to Socialblade, 2.1 million total video views, instead of say 200k.

Ragefest gave you some serious popularity on youtube, popularity and eyeballs that most people beg in comment sections for, and keeping it up means you're becoming even more popular yet you just keep complaining about the work? Let me tell you something, unless your name is Pewdiepie or you are a truly funny soul like Seananners, nobody got popular off of unedited commentary videos in the last few years. Nowadays, getting recognized means a ton of work. Do you think people like vSauce complain? If you think you have a lot of editing to do, that channel (Any any others with heavy amounts of animations) is much more intense. How about people like Mr. Sark? Every video he makes is a heavily edited nightmare and he is the only person who does it himself. He has the added bonus of being genuinely funny and creative too, which certainly helps, but you can't discount his editing as people comment about it all the time.

Nobody ever said being a Youtuber was easy. And when you set up a contest that deliberately is supposed to 'make you mad', you cannot treat people like dirt for achieving the goal just because they didn't tickle your masochist bone exactly the way you wanted them to. More than a dozen people collectively put at least a year or two's worth of work into all the entries seen in this contest, and crapping all over them is unacceptable. In fact, I know for a fact that PwnageKirby put a full year into hers alone. She's been working on it since F.EXE was finished. I also know her friend Mari has been working on her own ragefest for even longer.

My grandfather told me once that if you make a promise to people, you do not have the right to break it or complain about the burden. If people are putting their labor into something for you, then just like the family reunion when Aunt Marge gives you that tacky clothing item and expects a thank you along with a smile, you give her a thank you along with a smile. Even if Alusq's entry was absolutely awful for you to play, you're free to say it was awful, but constantly complaining about it, when it's finally done and over with, is just making you look really mean right now. I feel bad I even have to be grandpa Klok right now, but this complete disregard for others is seriously irritating me.

That's all I've got to say on it. Be more appreciative or don't do it anymore. I know of many people who would be happy, (if lesser qualified) to take the contest off your hands if you can't appreciate all the work people do for you.

Alright. You've made your point. I'm sorry for being such a salty sam.

I'm... gonna take a break from all this though. Maybe when I'm less upset over how the past week has went, I'll be better prepared to say something, but for now, I seriously need to do something other than Ragefest for a bit. As much as I want to get these videos out quickly so people don't have to wait a long time, it's clear that based on how I'm behaving, I'm just not ready to continue recording yet.

I'm sorry for being a jerk, and I'm sorry for the delays.

[Feraligono]

...If I'd pulled the rain trick, I'd have turned it off after a couple of turns. Short term rage as it caused Marc when he realised each turn was going to take minutes, but once I guaged the initial impact had worn off, I'd have pulled the game out of tedium and rummaged around for another trick to spring. Even "cheap" tactics can be legitimate causes for rage, but only if used in moderation.

Actually, if you were to somehow do that on a turn rotation, it could be interesting mechanic - much like the rain in Advance Wars that would come and go.

It would be less constant torture, and more of something you could legitimately prepare for (much like the enemy spawns every 4 turns in Emblem Warriors).

Alright. You've made your point. I'm sorry for being such a salty sam.

I'm... gonna take a break from all this though. Maybe when I'm less upset over how the past week has went, I'll be better prepared to say something, but for now, I seriously need to do something other than Ragefest for a bit. As much as I want to get these videos out quickly so people don't have to wait a long time, it's clear that based on how I'm behaving, I'm just not ready to continue recording yet.

I'm sorry for being a jerk, and I'm sorry for the delays.

It happens to the best of us. As you yourself have stated, your job is stressful. And coming home to work on something as stress-inducing as Ragefest certainly can't help that.

At the very least, your tone in the previous posts says that much.

I'm not saying that you can't keep doing this, but I am saying that you deserve a break after that last one.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Feraligono

[ghast]

Sorry Marky, but people enjoy more watching other suffer than anything else. =(

Was it because Alusq's submission was too long, or because you took a lot of time for P2?

This may be true, but personally I'm watching his mystery of the emblem playthrough and I look forward to that more than marky getting mad.

What's sad is the only reason you have 6k subscribers instead of like, 1.5k subscribers, is because of ragefest. Not to mention, according to Socialblade, 2.1 million total video views, instead of say 200k.

Ragefest gave you some serious popularity on youtube, popularity and eyeballs that most people beg in comment sections for, and keeping it up means you're becoming even more popular yet you just keep complaining about the work?

He's human, he's allowed to complain.

Let me tell you something, unless your name is Pewdiepie or you are a truly funny soul like Seananners, nobody got popular off of unedited commentary videos in the last few years. Nowadays, getting recognized means a ton of work. Do you think people like vSauce complain?

They probably do sometimes.

If you think you have a lot of editing to do, that channel (Any any others with heavy amounts of animations) is much more intense. How about people like Mr. Sark? Every video he makes is a heavily edited nightmare and he is the only person who does it himself. He has the added bonus of being genuinely funny and creative too, which certainly helps, but you can't discount his editing as people comment about it all the time.

the pain of editing is probably lessened by the fact that their fanbase is monstrous and they essentially can dedicate a fuckton more time to Youtube than Marky, like come on. This comparison is kinda whack

Nobody ever said being a Youtuber was easy. And when you set up a contest that deliberately is supposed to 'make you mad', you cannot treat people like dirt for achieving the goal just because they didn't tickle your masochist bone exactly the way you wanted them to.

Am I the only one here not getting the vibe that Marky isn't being a selfish guy right now? Like seriously, Marky and I have talked extensively about Ragefest and there was never an instance where he treated anyone like dirt. He's admitted to his attitude in the past and I believed he addressed it in his Midnight Sun playthrough.

More than a dozen people collectively put at least a year or two's worth of work into all the entries seen in this contest, and crapping all over them is unacceptable. In fact, I know for a fact that PwnageKirby put a full year into hers alone. She's been working on it since F.EXE was finished. I also know her friend Mari has been working on her own ragefest for even longer.

I think we can agree on the fact that crapping over someone elses work kinda sucks. But again, I'm not seeing that going on here? Maybe in the past, maybe in RF3 but that was literally 3 years ago. People change.

My grandfather told me once that if you make a promise to people, you do not have the right to break it or complain about the burden. If people are putting their labor into something for you, then just like the family reunion when Aunt Marge gives you that tacky clothing item and expects a thank you along with a smile, you give her a thank you along with a smile. Even if Alusq's entry was absolutely awful for you to play, you're free to say it was awful, but constantly complaining about it, when it's finally done and over with, is just making you look really mean right now. I feel bad I even have to be grandpa Klok right now, but this complete disregard for others is seriously irritating me.

The modification of the rules was based completely off of Sqawl's efforts though. It shows total regard for others. That's the point of the modified rules.

That's all I've got to say on it. Be more appreciative or don't do it anymore. I know of many people who would be happy, (if lesser qualified) to take the contest off your hands if you can't appreciate all the work people do for you.

The modification of rules, again. is to be more appreciative of the most entries possible.

On the topic of what is constituting rage:

There is a difference between having stellar enough gameplay that can make any player frustrated by their own mistakes, even with getting so close to the end goa, and gameplay that is outright frustrating to begin with for no reason and only serving to be stupidly design to a point where anyone would be like "what the actual fuck am I playing here"

that's the difference between making someone rage because of their own mistakes (strategist) and making someone rage because they have to deal with design oversights or just dickhead ideas (2 move, weather) (sadist)

to me this distinction is very easy to make.

[Wayward Winds]

[...]I'm just not ready to continue recording yet.

I'm sorry for being a jerk, and I'm sorry for the delays.

Haven't we already told you to take it at your own pace? Rushing through stuff and burning yourself out does no one any good, least of all you.

...And I sort of got the impression of stressed but pushing on anyway from the last few day's posts. Again, slow and steady wins the get-out-of-mental-asylum-free card.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Wayward Winds

[Klokinator]

the pain of editing is probably lessened by the fact that their fanbase is monstrous and they essentially can dedicate a fuckton more time to Youtube than Marky, like come on. This comparison is kinda whack

I guess it's hard for you to understand, but even the Vsauce empire started out relatively tiny, just as most AMV makers and many other hardcore editing channels do. They didn't start off with a million subs. Kinda weird you'd say this, given how hard you try to get people to eyeball your own channel.

Am I the only one here not getting the vibe that Marky isn't being a selfish guy right now? Like seriously, Marky and I have talked extensively about Ragefest and there was never an instance where he treated anyone like dirt. He's admitted to his attitude in the past and I believed he addressed it in his Midnight Sun playthrough.

Never an instance? Huh. Funny, because I could swear there was at least one. Referring to myself, of course! I'm sure there have been a few other newbies who were new to hacking that his harsh criticism pushed away as well. But I won't speak for them, just myself. After the Generic War fiasco, I felt so awful that I didn't even want to make anything for a very long time. I finally came to the conclusion that most of his criticism was correct, but delivered very poorly, on top of the blunder of playing the wrong version of my submission (A two months difference in effort, mind you). I had the joy of reading many comments on his channel of people mocking my submission, joining in the verbal gangbang, as you will. So yeah, saying 'never' is a pretty big word there.

The modification of the rules was based completely off of Sqawl's efforts though. It shows total regard for others. That's the point of the modified rules.

This is not correct. Marc didn't wait until the end of the contest to bring this out, so what if other people who entered (12 remaining submissions, as you may recall) have similar issues in their own projects? Now they have to sit there and wait, thinking to themselves 'man I hope I'm not gonna get disqualified/shit upon'. It's very demoralizing to know that your project may not even have a shot because something changed mid-contest that otherwise didn't exist at the start. It'd be like playing Monopoly with your friends, only for the owner of the Red properties to say mid-game "Alright, anyone who doesn't own a Red property has to pay $200 to the owner of the red properties whenever they pass Go."

And even if it doesn't disqualify others, it certainly disqualifies Alusq after all the work he put into it. It's a slap in the face. Why not just put a new rule in saying 'If I don't like your submission, I'll just disqualify it'? At least that's being more honest.

Enough with the white knighting, Marc is a big boy, he can accept the consequences for his actions.

[Lord Wolfram]

Marky,Marky,Marky....

Think about this all twice.

You have 13 games left to play.

If you think you could handle 2 games at the same day you're wrong.

If you think you can beat all 13 games in 2 weeks, you are wrong too.

I think we all can agree that it would be good enough if you play one ragefest within 2 weeks.

You take 2 days for one game and then rest well for 10 - 12 days.

Well that's what I think about it anyways.

[Nanami Touko]

That's all I've got to say on it. Be more appreciative or don't do it anymore. I know of many people who would be happy, (if lesser qualified) to take the contest off your hands if you can't appreciate all the work people do for you.

*waves*

All I have to add to what Klok said is that you seem to be taking a lot of this criticism personally. I wouldn't do that. Whether or not you believe me, I'm not saying any of what I said to mark you as a bad person; I can judge your actions without judging you, and that's all I'm doing. Tbh, I don't think you're that bad of a guy. We just disagree on how to do things near all the time.

Take in what people are saying and take it towards what you do, not who you are.

[MrNight48]

Haven't we already told you to take it at your own pace? Rushing through stuff and burning yourself out does no one any good, least of all you.

...And I sort of got the impression of stressed but pushing on anyway from the last few day's posts. Again, slow and steady wins the get-out-of-mental-asylum-free card.

this

the pain of editing is probably lessened by the fact that their fanbase is monstrous and they essentially can dedicate a fuckton more time to Youtube than Marky, like come on. This comparison is kinda whack

the main point here is as much work marc put into his videos, the same can easily be said for the people who made the submissions from him to play. Maybe even more.

Look FE hacking/modding is not easy. in fact, its fucking annoying. The only reason why most of us follow through with it is the idea that someone will play it and enjoy it. We may not achieve that goal in the end, but that is the risk worth taking. I get this shit can not be fun but at the same time, I don't think any ragefest maker goes in with the intent of making a boring hack but shit happens, the engine does something the creator didn't think was possible or they had a bad idea and didn't realize it was a bad idea until they got feed back. Sure, this is what testers are for but honestly, it is not fair to ask people to play through a shitty version of your hack only to make it better for others who don't want to bother on a unfinished product so most of the time, the creator is the one testing it. For obvious reasons, that comes with its own problems but it's to be expected along with the possibility that after all this work, people will think your hack is shit anyway.

Anyway Marc, we know this was going to take a very long time to finish. However giving up so soon especially after 2 submissions is a bad idea.

Edited August 6, 2015 by MrNight48

[SilverHairedFreak25]

All I have to add to what Klok said is that you seem to be taking a lot of this criticism personally. I wouldn't do that. Whether or not you believe me, I'm not saying any of what I said to mark you as a bad person; I can judge your actions without judging you, and that's all I'm doing. Tbh, I don't think you're that bad of a guy. We just disagree on how to do things near all the time.

Take in what people are saying and take it towards what you do, not who you are.

All I'm gonna say is this: after the time I spent watching Marc's videos, I've learned to take his initial reaction with a grain of salt.

[ghast]

I guess it's hard for you to understand, but even the Vsauce empire started out relatively tiny, just as most AMV makers and many other hardcore editing channels do. They didn't start off with a million subs. Kinda weird you'd say this, given how hard you try to get people to eyeball your own channel.

its not hard to understand, he's just human with other shit going on. Not sure what the point of mentioning my channel is though.

Never an instance? Huh. Funny, because I could swear there was at least one. Referring to myself, of course! I'm sure there have been a few other newbies who were new to hacking that his harsh criticism pushed away as well. But I won't speak for them, just myself. After the Generic War fiasco, I felt so awful that I didn't even want to make anything for a very long time. I finally came to the conclusion that most of his criticism was correct, but delivered very poorly, on top of the blunder of playing the wrong version of my submission (A two months difference in effort, mind you). I had the joy of reading many comments on his channel of people mocking my submission, joining in the verbal gangbang, as you will. So yeah, saying 'never' is a pretty big word there.

Sorry, I meant that there wasn't an instance this year . in the past, yes I agree with you. But that was a loooong time ago. He even slammed me for my design choices in bloodlines in the past. Did he apologize for it? Not that I remember, but even if he did, that wasn't 3 years ago and I was able to forget about it and move on. And personality wise I've seen it upfront that there's an effort there.

This is not correct. Marc didn't wait until the end of the contest to bring this out, so what if other people who entered (12 remaining submissions, as you may recall) have similar issues in their own projects? Now they have to sit there and wait, thinking to themselves 'man I hope I'm not gonna get disqualified/shit upon'. It's very demoralizing to know that your project may not even have a shot because something changed mid-contest that otherwise didn't exist at the start. It'd be like playing Monopoly with your friends, only for the owner of the Red properties to say mid-game "Alright, anyone who doesn't own a Red property has to pay $200 to the owner of the red properties whenever they pass Go."

Klok, I was literally with Marc yesterday talking about the modified rules. And I was the one to suggest modifying the rules so it could better incorporate everyone's effort. The modified rules only cut out a submission from getting the Strategist award which can be thought of as the big platinum prize. Before, disqualification meant that a submission was exempt from all possible voting. Now it gives all submissions a chance to win in at least 3+ things or more. If anything I'd argue that it puts less stress on entrants because at least they know that their work will be validated as a guarantee.

At the same token, the most well thought out and strategic submission will get validated in its own right for being the straight up best.

And even if it doesn't disqualify others, it certainly disqualifies Alusq after all the work he put into it. It's a slap in the face. Why not just put a new rule in saying 'If I don't like your submission, I'll just disqualify it'? At least that's being more honest.

Again, the rules are the rules. But disqualifying Sqawl's whole submission based off of a few unfortunate oversights would be wrong. And that's well understood. Getting disqualified sucks, even for 1 or 2 prizes, sucks. I get it. But the rules were there from the beginning.

Enough with the white knighting, Marc is a big boy, he can accept the consequences for his actions.

Marky is a close friend of mine and I'm allowed to defend him.

[ghast]

Sorry to interrupt anyone in the midst of posting, but Marky requested that this thread get back on track in regards to waiting on submissions/dropping this discussion. If someone wants to PM me regarding what's being said now then give er. my inbox is open.

Klok you can PM me if you like, to finish your thoughts and whatnot

Gotta play moderator ghast now.