2017 NFL Playoffs - Super Bowl LI Confirmed! Atlanta Falcons vs New England Patriots!

[Life]

Raven, you're also forgetting the retarded amount of missed tackles in that game. Like CJ Anderson breaking three separate tackles on a single run.

There is no fucking way you are bitching about Jim Kelly and the K-Gun offense failing to win a Super Bowl against probably the most stacked division of the early 90s. They literally went up against teams that were in the running for greatest teams of all time and they were outmatched by that 1990 Giants All-Star coaching staff. What did the Lions have to celebrate about in their miserable existence in the Super Bowl era? Barry Sanders? You keep complaining about how much the Music City Miracle still stings and Lions face shit like that every time they go to the playoffs. In this decade we had stuff like the blatant PI against Pettigrew that would've sealed the game if called properly and putting up 28 points yet being against a Saints offense that did not punt the entire game. There is no way you would rather be a Lions fan, especially since Buffalo's future is rather bright regardless of Rex Ryanisms.

The Bills won't even be seen as a joke once they start making the playoffs. The Lions have been perpetually a joke in the NFL, the Jaguars have been basically irrelevant since 2007 and before that they were still pretty irrelevant because their team was constantly getting crushed by Manning, the Titans' last season of relevance was 2008 when they were upset by an upstart Baltimore team with a rookie QB and head coach, and before that it was like 1999, etc etc etc. There are many fanbases that have faced more futility than the Bills, and just because the Bills lost 4 straight Super Bowls in the 90s against some all-time great teams does not make it worse to be a Bills fan than a Lions fan.

The Lions have actually had it worse than the Browns if you take the entirety of the last 50 years as a whole.

First off, Buffalo's future is not bright for at least another 5 years in reality. Take it from a man who has been watching the AFC East his entire life, we have no shot at even thinking about the division title as long as Belichek is still in Boston. This is Buffalo we are talking about.

I don't need to expand on that point.

Next, let's indeed talk about the Lions. And yes, their history overall is probably more brutal than ours. But the Lions a joke? Are you kidding me? The Lions are one of those old proud franchises when you still do remember Barry Sanders running over everyone. Megaton is a permanent fixture in our lives in how a single receiver can make an entire team worthwhile and dangerous. I'm not saying that the Lions haven't suffered even in the present but there is no way you can refer to them as a joke. Especially when they make the playoffs every few years or so.

This is where you fall into the same category of Ana, bro. You don't understand what it is like to support a team that is literally not given a second thought for years on end. Since '99 (excluding the three years after the squad moved from Cleveland), the Ravens have had 2 Super Bowl wins and something like 7 other playoff appearances. That also includes a couple of mediocre seasons but not 10+ in a row. You're also spoiled by your success but at least you recognize that you are.

On the other side, we have the Bills.

Yes, I am allowed to bitch about the K-Gun. Because it was great. In fact, it made us a juggernaut. Nobody wanted to play against Buffalo. We'd run Thurman down your throats, Kelly had Reed on the outside and Metzelaars for the middle of the field (the original coming of Gronk). Our D was solid with Bruce Smith, Darryl Talley and Cornelius Bennett dominating the middle of the field. And then we had Steve Tasker, the single best special teamer of all time. There is currently a debate going on whether or not Steve Tasker deserves to be in the Hall of Fame and I believe so.

And yet, we fell 4 times to the NFC East where we subsequently got more humiliated. We should have won in 1990 and I'm not talking about Norwood missing. And from this point on, we became the ultimate choker. We are quite literally a joke; Chris Rock used our team as one of his punchlines for Kill The Messenger.

After 1993, we suffered through over 2 decades of mismanagement including the benching of Doug Flutie in 1999. We deserved to lose that game for it. What we didn't deserve was to be humiliated on television once again (31 franchises know that game as the "Music City Miracle" while mine knows it as the "Tragedy in Tennessee". And we certainly didn't deserve the next 15 years where everyone who watched football would look at the Bills and say "well, that's like an extra bye week".

Detroit never received that feeling. Ever. And I wouldn't want them to. Because if you never made it to the end, you won't beat yourself up too much. But we made it 4 times in a row and we aren't recognized for our greatness. We're the team that choked every fucking time.

So yes. The Lions have something that we don't. Respect. You can say that you respect our team but very few people outside of Bills Mafia respects our franchise. And that's fine. But don't tell me I don't deserve to feel bad over the shit that's happened to my team in the past 25 years (forget the fact that we were irrelevant for the 25 or so years before that) because other teams may or may not have it worse. In my opinion, only the Browns have had it worse than us and your team is a major reason why.

[FoxwolfJackson]

Uh, actually I was... I was a kid then, but I was around. And he was like a top five dual threat QB according to NFL.com stats. o.O

I don't really remember his stats. I just remember that we were so glad when he left. I mean, yeah, Maddox wasn't great, but we didn't have him for long before Big Ben premiered. I mean, he went to the Ravens...

[ClevelandSteve]

The Lions have actually had it worse than the Browns if you take the entirety of the last 50 years as a whole.

Not saying Lions fans have nothing to complain about, but they didn't have to watch their team get stolen from them only for their former team to win the Super Bowl for some other city a mere five years later.

Edit: Also, while I've never seen my team make and lose a Super Bowl, I have had teams I root for make it to and lose both the World Series and the NBA Finals in my lifetime. In my personal opinion, it feels downright terrible. Honestly, it's hard to feel disappointed when you have no glimmer of hope in the first place. Even just talking about the last two Browns seasons, finishing 7-9 after starting 7-4 in 2014 felt a thousand times worse than starting terrible and ending on the same awful note this year.

Edited February 8, 2016 by ClevelandSteve

[Anacybele]

I don't really remember his stats. I just remember that we were so glad when he left. I mean, yeah, Maddox wasn't great, but we didn't have him for long before Big Ben premiered. I mean, he went to the Ravens...

Well, when NFL.com talked about the best dual-threat QBs in history because of Cam Newton, they made a list and I believe Stewart was number 5 on it. With Cam as number 1, of course. :P

My stepdad said Maddox was fine, it's just that after he got a really bad concussion, he wasn't the same again. From what I know, he just plain couldn't stay healthy either. Ben ended up starting because Maddox went down in week 2!

Edited February 8, 2016 by Anacybele

[Lord Raven]

If you honestly think the Lions have respect, then you haven't been following any part of the NFL fandom. You keep talking about the Bills choking like they always do, but you know, at least they've had a time where they completely dominated the AFC. Ditto for teams like the Chargers who had a decade of amazing teams in the 2000s that couldn't win the big one - but they at least have that.

You mention Megatron but he's about to retire, too. They also generally wasted Megatron's career with poor coaching and two playoff trips - they got nothing out of either. That's just about as much futility as the Bills, except that people only remember Barry Sanders from the Lions. The Lions had 5 decades of irrelevance and overall a single playoff win to show for it.

I mean, before 2012 we had a single Super Bowl win to settle on but we've had some pretty great squads to brag about that could not make it far into the playoffs or the Super Bowl for years. Here's where we do have mutual understanding, because I was a fan before 2012, and I saw us lose two AFCCGs in heart breaking fashion, we held Peyton Manning to 15 fucking points with the second best defense in the decade but could only score 6 on them with a Steve McNair about to retire, a 5-11 season immediately following that which was supposed to be our year with Kyle "Should've been a" Boller, and the OPOY AND DPOY on the same team in 2003 that could not win a playoff game. We had many hall of famers and excellent defensive players who we needed to get a ring but could not get them one (Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs, Haloti Ngata, Bart Scott, Adalius Thomas, the list goes on - that 2006 linebacker corps was borderline unstoppable) and of course we had a few people chasing #2 (Chris McAllister, Ray Lewis, Jamal Lewis) but they were completely wasted for a decade. No, we weren't a laughing stock, but we weren't the threat to the playoffs we became under Harbaugh until 2008, and we still seemed to have 4 straight years of futility (one playoff win per year?) but I'm still celebrating all those years we failed to reach a Super Bowl despite having squads more than well equipped to play in them (2003, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2011).

I know that feeling of futility and wasting careers pretty well. It was calmed down quite a bit after we finally won the second Super Bowl, but there's no way you can't tell me I have no idea how it feels. I may not know the extent of it, but the heartbreak was still a result of my team being great and I'd rather be able to make the playoffs every year and have a shot at a Super Bowl eventually than being a fucking Falcons, Lions, Browns, Jaguars, or Texans fan whose teams cannot get over that steep hump at any point.

Please don't put me in there as an entitled fan, because I have indeed experienced a sense of futility for 12 years before we got our second Super Bowl, but I was still thankful that I rooted for a team competitive enough to actually make it. Those early 90s Bills dominated the AFC like nobody's business - and it sucked that the NFC East was incredibly strong then and the Bills had to match up to them - but there's no way it sucked to be a Bills fan at any point in the early 90s.

And again, you still complain about the Music City Miracle 16 years after that perfectly legal lateral happened, but the four teams I mentioned - on top of numerous other teams that haven't won a Super Bowl have this shit happen to them all the time as well, and it's still better to have a half decade of complete control in the AFC than being a fan of certain teams.

Again, that K-Gun offense was no joke. Even with Barry Sanders and Megatron, the Lions were a joke. The Lions went 0-16 with Calvin Johnson on the roster. The Lions with Barry Sanders made the playoffs like 2-3 times. The Bills with Jim Kelly, Thurmon Thomas, Andre Reed, Marv Levy, Bruce Smith, etc made the big game four times and even provided us with one of the legendary Super Bowls despite losning. And Frank Reich, as mediocre an OC he was and even though he was a backup, gave us a legendary performance in the Comeback game - which again is far more than the Lions and Browns can muster because the Lions have no legendary games and the Browns' games that live in infamy include them losing when they basically have the game wrapped up (Red Right 88, the fumble, and the drive?) Cardinals have it far worse than you guys too, given that they won all of their playoff games within the last decade save one, with their only notable run being this year and like half of last year before Lindley took himself by storm.

Let's really not pretend that the Bills have had it worse than the Browns or Lions. Let's also not pretend the Jaguars can contend any sooner than you guys. If you honestly think the Bills roster is 5 years away from competing as long as Brady/Belichick are a thing then you are actually worse than ClevelandSteve, because there's no way Tom Brady doesn't drop off steeply very soon. It happened to Favre, Manning (for other reasons), it looks like it's about to happen to Brees, and it happened to other dudes more physically gifted than Brady, because that offense cannot function properly without its receivers as we saw very clearly in the second half of the season.

If you never even come close to the end you're basically content with perpetual mediocrity. There's a lot wrong with that mentality. It's much much worse to have no standards than high standards that are tougher to reach. It's pathetic to see Browns fans who hyped Hoyer was the one QB who seemed to do things less wrong than most other players. It's pathetic to see Lions fans that go like "wow Caldwell pulled our 0-6 start around to a 7-9 season!!!" or some shit like that, especially right after a season where they almost won their second playoff game ever. You're really saying it's worse to be a fan of a franchise that's generally done better than most other teams?

Besides, 5 years? Really? New owner, new coach, a good foundation of players on offense, and what probably amounts to the second best QB in the division? (Say what you will about Tannehill - he is Alex Smith at his peak, and Tyrod Taylor seems to be more like a taller Russell Wilson that's probably not as accurate). I don't know what's happening with Rex Ryan there, but that dude's taken a Mark Sanchez led team to an AFCCG with an arguably worse roster, while the Patriots were still in the division and including a season where the Patriots went 14-2.

Not saying Lions fans have nothing to complain about, but they didn't have to watch their team get stolen from them only for their former team to win the Super Bowl for some other city a mere five years later.

No offense but Browns fans need to stop with this narrative. The only thing we "stole" in the end were draft picks that Belichick got us, which is the major thing, because otherwise there's like 5 players in common with the roster. Belichick was on his way out, move or not, and the team not only doesn't get Marchibroda if they don't move to Baltimore but they don't subsequently get Brian Billick either (who actually brought a sense of character to the team). That team was also 4-5 before the move was even announced outside of the meetings, and furthermore Steve Bisciotti doesn't get a minority ownership to eventually take over the team in 2001-2002 without the move. I highly doubt that the Browns win a championship in 2000 if they don't move, so don't pretend it was "your" team that won the championship. The NFL gave you guys that expansion franchise in 1999 to compensate, whereas Baltimore fans had to deal with 25 years of shitty sports teams and a city in complete hell with some abusive team owners along the way. You say shit about Art Modell but Bob Irsay was significantly worse in every possible way, including trying to extort the city during a massive recession and a ton of crime issues springing up, and literally moving the team weeks after saying that the Colts aren't going anywhere (which he said after meetings with Phoenix and Indianapolis government officials), and a decade and a half of tampering with the team and getting in the way of coaches that led to shit like John Elway being traded to the Broncos because he didn't want to be a part of a toxic organization. I wasn't even alive in the 80s and I flipped off a Mayflower truck in Tucson the other day.

I really wanna see a 30 for 30 on espn that is titled "Robert Irsay: Fuckbag of the century."

And given the shitty Cleveland ownership in 1999, assuming Modell does sell the franchise in 2001-2002 (and again, this is in a hypothetical scenario where there are no Super Bowl wins but Belichick still gets fired - people in Cleveland did not like him despite what hindsight tells us) would still leave the organization as bad as it is now. Bisciotti would not buy the team and move the team forward like he did with the Ravens, and Modell would probably fire more dudes in haste in the mean time.

The only thing that Cleveland fans should complain about is losing Lewis and Ogden to the Ravens, but even then Ray Lewis has had to deal with some horrific offenses on the other side of the ball that I doubt would get any better in Cleveland, and Ogden had been in a Top 10 or 15 offense once in his career - 1996.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Life]

<SNIP>

It's a good analysis but there's only one mistake. Sadly, it breaks apart your entire argument.

You treat post-season appearances as if they are no big deal. They are a big deal to us because we are the fans of the teams that don't play football in January. And that's the first measuring spot.

If you spent 16 years watching 31 other teams make the playoffs during that time but not yours, you'd also be salty at the fact that the Tragedy in Tennessee was the last time you played football on the other side of the new year. In addition, a team that makes the playoffs (say Detroit who have made it a few times in the past 10 years) can at least say "well, that's a start, next year we will win that game" as a point of positivity.

You know what I get to say? "Maybe next year, we'll be at 8-8 again!" Understand that this is the first time since I was a very young child that I have seen Buffalo go .500 or better twice in a row. In fact, ​this might very well be our peak for the current generation. That's a very real and very scary thought for us. Playoff appearances might mean wasting a career to you. To us, that's manna from the heavens. Forget the Super Bowl, we want redemption for the TiT.

Also, I'm from Toronto. I might no longer be a fan of the Maple Leafs (I support the Winnipeg Jets) but they haven't won a Stanley Cup since the early 70's. The Raptors have never been past the first round of the playoffs. The Blue Jays won in '92 and '93 but after the salary cap rule went out the window, people gave up on the team ever seeing the postseason again (which explains all the fervor surrounding the '15 Jays). The Argonauts have won 2 Grey Cups in almost 20 years... in a fucking 8 team league.

The only team that I cheer for that has had any real success is Macabi Tel-Aviv (basketball) and it's in a country where I'm an immigrant and chose to support. So yeah, I don't know what it's like to support good sports teams and to take playoffs births for granted as you clearly do (if you say you don't, your post proves otherwise). And yes, I'm salty.

I'm not mad at you. This is just the frustration of watching the only franchise I really give a fuck about flounder for over a decade and a half with a possibility that we may be good again on the horizon but not enough proof to back it up.

Edited February 8, 2016 by John Barrowman

[Lord Raven]

You treat post-season appearances as if they are no big deal.

Where? I said (or at the very least strongly suggested) that it's a big deal if people make it, and it's a big deal if teams consistently make it.

To me wasting a career was exactly what Billick was doing between 2002 and 2007 - two playoff appearances and immediate exits with nothing to show for it. I still really brag about those teams despite that, because there was a lot to brag about.

I think the tension I felt when Cundiff missed that kick in the AFCCG is a smaller extension of how Bills fans felt in the early 2000s. Still a wonderful season, still just about the only team that can march into Foxborough in January and give the Patriots a pain in their ass, but you cannot pretend I have never felt that feeling before.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Life]

Where? I said (or at the very least strongly suggested) that it's a big deal if people make it, and it's a big deal if teams consistently make it.

It's a big deal to us because we don't remember what it's like to be in the playoffs. And the last time we were there (I was 8 years old and now I'm 24), we got humiliated with 16 seconds left in the game.

Let me give you a good example. Watkins claimed before he was drafted that the Bills was his favourite team. The kid was born in '93 which puts him at 6 years old during the TiT and less than a year when we lost our last Super Bowl. He probably has no memory of the Bills ever making it to the playoffs, never mind the Super Bowl. I do because it's my oldest memory (watching the TiT). And I was 8.

That's how low our standards are. Because we won't win a Super Bowl if we can't make the playoffs. And that's why I can say that you're slightly on the spoiled side. It's not an insult, just a fact. You might know how it feels to keep losing playoff games but you don't know what it means to not make them in the first place over a 16 year period.

EDIT: This Bills team is surreal currently. We have a top 10 offense. That hasn't happened in over 20 years. Our defense is good (not great anymore but still good). As a result, I get the sinking feeling that this is our ceiling. I hope not but I haven't yet seen any proof of Buffalo actually starting to dominate.

Edited February 8, 2016 by John Barrowman

[Anacybele]

Apparently, Cam Newton acted like an immature baby after losing the SB.

Just...really? I don't want to lose all respect I have for this guy. >_>

[Lord Raven]

I mean he was all Belichick-ian in the post-game presser. I wouldn't call him a baby.

It doesn't help that TJ Ward was like 50 feet away in another press conference talking about how they stopped the Panthers O. Almost adding insult to injury there. I think most sane people would do what he did. His body language spoke louder than whatever he said though.

Life I'll respond later. I gotta go to work in a moment.

[Anacybele]

Well, according to my parents, he was an immature baby and lost a lot of fans and Dion Sanders called him out on his behavior. But I hope you're right.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Anacybele

[Life]

Actually, I respect Cam a lot more after this loss and the way he acted.

Cam's whole shtick is about his invincibility. He can single-handedly fire up momentum for the Panthers with a run or a good pass. But he got stage fright. The Super Bowl exposed him as a frightened kid on a huge stage. He treated the game as if it was the Super Bowl rather than week 5 at the Bucs. He'd run for a first down but he refused to celebrate afterwards. I noticed this quickly and knew that if he didn't pull himself out of his funk, he'd lose.

After the game, I think he realized his mistake. I'm not blaming Cam for the loss but he knew that he should have gone out and played as if it were just a regular game. And that's why he's been a baby in the media's eyes. He's blaming himself for the loss and I can't help but sympathise for him. If he ever gets another shot, he won't lose.

And Lord Raven, don't respond. Neither of us gain anything from winning this argument and it's just going to get more bitter. Let's bury it here.

[Anacybele]

Well, my parents described his behavior as pouting like a kid. I guess some people just have different definitions of that.

Still, glad to see that not everybody thinks Cam was immature. I love the guy as a player and his dances are funny. :P He's also good at getting people fired up just like you say.

[Life]

I didn't respect him much before the Super Bowl as a person but watching that game made me really appreciate the effect it had on him.

If I were you, I'd explain it to your parents as such and explain the character arc it gives him. They'll understand that since it's the only reasonable explanation for his actions.

[Anacybele]

I tried to explain his behavior even though I made it clear that I didn't condone immature behavior. But they just wouldn't get it. I'm not good at getting my point across anyway... I have trouble wording things properly...

[Life]

I tried to explain his behavior even though I made it clear that I didn't condone immature behavior. But they just wouldn't get it. I'm not good at getting my point across anyway... I have trouble wording things properly...

Oh, it is immature. He was a kid with stage fright with something like a billion people watching him and he's upset at himself for not playing to his strengths. I give him a pass on his behavior.

[BBM]

I don't know much about NFL history (although seeing you guys argue about whether the Bills or Lions have had it worse when I half-cheer for both sure is fun), but man, fuck Cleveland fans complaining about losing in the NBA finals. You got the 1st pick in the year with the best player in 20 years, AND he also happened to be born near your city so he felt compelled to come back after he left.

idrk how people wanted Cam to act. I see him as a guy who wears his heart on his sleeve. When everything is going well he's happy. When he's just lost in the Super Bowl, he's obviously going to be crushed. Not sure I buy that he should have been out there dabbing on first downs when he was still losing. That would have been pretty obnoxious. When he's done that in the past they've been leading (often by a lot) at the time. They trailed the entire game on Sunday.

[chococoke]

I honestly don't fault Cam for the way he acted. He got to the biggest stage after being practically invincible for the first 95% of the season, and it all fell apart for him. It's tough to get that close and lose. If he's smart he'll learn from the moment and improve his demeanor.

I feel Cam deserves maximum criticism for not diving onto his second fumble late in the game. It was pitiful and came in a moment where the Panthers still had a chance. Completely inexcusable. If I'm a teammate of his, that play makes me question his entire image. Biggest game of your career and you won't dive headfirst onto an opportunity to stay in the game? Quite a leader.

[Anacybele]

I feel Cam deserves maximum criticism for not diving onto his second fumble late in the game. It was pitiful and came in a moment where the Panthers still had a chance. Completely inexcusable. If I'm a teammate of his, that play makes me question his entire image. Biggest game of your career and you won't dive headfirst onto an opportunity to stay in the game? Quite a leader.

Yeah, this is what led me to conclude that the game was rigged for Peyton Manning so he could have his fairytale ending. The refs were biased for his team and then Cam doesn't go after a fumble? That screams very suspicious to me, like Cam was told not to go after it if there was another fumble.

[chococoke]

lol you serious? You're taking this loss worse than Cam ;)

[dondon151]

the ball squirts out in a lot of those fumble recoveries and he may have second guessed himself

[chococoke]

I actually thought that and gave him the benefit of the doubt at first. But looking at the replay, he has a clear shot to dive and attempt a recovery. Obviously there were bodies around and he would've taken a lot of hits had he dove on the ball, but it looked like he definitely had an opportunity and kinda just stood there and flinched.

[Life]

Yeah, this is what led me to conclude that the game was rigged for Peyton Manning so he could have his fairytale ending. The refs were biased for his team and then Cam doesn't go after a fumble? That screams very suspicious to me, like Cam was told not to go after it if there was another fumble.

I've seen rigged games. This one was called very fairly aside from that terrible challenge at the beginning of the game. That shit should have been a catch because there was no evidence of the ball hitting the ground. You can see it move but the receiver's hand was underneath.

This is just a stupid comment.

[chococoke]

So apparently the Browns declared Manziel had a "concussion" week 17 because he showed up to a Wednesday practice while drunk? Unreal. I think it's safe to say at this point that the kid isn't going to play another snap in the NFL. Hope he makes his rookie contract money last.

[Life]

I never liked Manziel. It was so sweet that the first game he ever started was against my 2014 defense and we made him look like a joke.

So for next year's schedule, we're playing the AFC North (fuck me, the Bengals AGAIN) and the NFC West. Playing the Raiders on the West Coast and the Jags again. Arizona/SF in the Ralph and Seattle/LA away. Just peachy.

It's not that bad of a schedule but I don't like Seattle and Cincy away. At least Arizona and Pittsburgh will be at home.

Edited February 9, 2016 by John Barrowman