FEIF Phoenix Mode.

[DragonLord]

I know this is optional and all, but a part of me still thinks this is just a tad bit ridiculous. I mean, the VERY next turn? This will only allow for mindless playing, unless that's what the player prefers I guess.

[Tangerine]

I know this is optional and all, but a part of me still thinks this is just a tad bit ridiculous. I mean, the VERY next turn? This will only allow for mindless playing, unless that's what the player prefers I guess.

How long did you expect it to take for Phoenix Downs to find their way to the Nohr/Hoshido kingdoms exactly? They only cost like 200g and they're produced in large quantities.

Anyway, if they get respawned at the start of the map or something they'll be mostly useless if you're already a ways in, or if they get respawned with low health they'll be in immediate danger again. There's also the question of how many times they can respawn on a single map, if they actually die should you meet that cap and the actual difficulty level of the mode. There's a lot we don't know. The placement on the menu screen seems to suggest a cheese mode, but it might be interesting if the enemies/maps were equivalent to higher difficulties, but it was intended as a casual introduction into the hard modes. I'm not very hopeful for that though. Point is we don't have enough info to be so upset over it lol.

[DragonLord]

Point is we don't have enough info to be so upset over it lol.

I'm not upset, and I don't want anyone to think that. Just a little amused at how such an idea came to be.

[IceBrand]

How long did you expect it to take for Phoenix Downs to find their way to the Nohr/Hoshido kingdoms exactly? They only cost like 200g and they're produced in large quantities.

Anyway, if they get respawned at the start of the map or something they'll be mostly useless if you're already a ways in, or if they get respawned with low health they'll be in immediate danger again. There's also the question of how many times they can respawn on a single map, if they actually die should you meet that cap and the actual difficulty level of the mode. There's a lot we don't know. The placement on the menu screen seems to suggest a cheese mode, but it might be interesting if the enemies/maps were equivalent to higher difficulties, but it was intended as a casual introduction into the hard modes. I'm not very hopeful for that though. Point is we don't have enough info to be so upset over it lol.

So everyone is under reraise effect then?

[Lord Raven]

well Reraise tends to act instantly as opposed to during the next turn...

[Florete]

My point in all of this was not to say that people are dumb, but to point out that more options is not always the best choice, which is something I haven't seen anyone point out here

For the record, I did:

More options is not always a good thing. I can understand why people who are fine with Casual are not fine with Phoenix. Casual still requires thought to get through; Phoenix just lets you kamikaze without a care in the world. It sounds like a joke or cheat mode.

@other stuff, there's no reason to think the respawns per map will be limited. Casual respawns are not limited and they have not suggested any form of it. Putting this out there is basically just trying to justify it with, "Well it might not be that bad" to the people who dislike it, but it's not really going to change much.

[Tangerine]

well Reraise tends to act instantly as opposed to during the next turn...

It would explain Nohr's tight budget if they splurged on Angel Rings before beginning their campaign, though!

For the record, I did:

@other stuff, there's no reason to think the respawns per map will be limited. Casual respawns are not limited and they have not suggested any form of it. Putting this out there is basically just trying to justify it with, "Well it might not be that bad" to the people who dislike it, but it's not really going to change much.

I don't think it's 'bad' even if it is just a cheese mode, I'm only trying to reason with the early backlash. We don't have enough knowledge to so hastily judge the new mode. We've no idea what they'll do with it. We already know they're making pretty significant balance changes for this installment, it would be fairly redundant to have a mode that's just "easier than casual" with no other purpose. Personally I think the mode should have replaced casual if that is what it turns out to be, but overall it's not that big of a deal.

[Roflolxp54]

I honestly don't mind the addition of Phoenix mode. However, for me, I pretty much have less reason to play the game in Casual mode when I can just go with either Phoenix or Classic mode, much like how I never played Awakening in Hard difficulty and only played Normal, Lunatic and Lunatic+.

You people can do something like this:

First playthrough: play Hoshido story path in Normal Phoenix mode

Second playthrough: play the third, DLC-only story path in Hard Casual mode

Third playthrough: play Nohr story path in Lunatic Classic mode

[Venterqua]

Last thing I have to say is that there is a reason mobile gaming has been picking up over the years, and while addictive gameplay is a part of that, simplicity is also a factor. My point in all of this was not to say that people are dumb, but to point out that more options is not always the best choice, which is something I haven't seen anyone point out here and thought it was worth mentioning. I think Casual Mode does the job in regards to picking up a new fanbase and that to push further than that yields diminishing returns. There should be better ways to integrate new players than simply creating a new mode every time someone refuses the previous eight.

We don't know the reason for the inclusion of Phoenix mode yet. We practically know nothing about it besides it revives characters a turn after they die. Phoeniz mode may not have the same goal as Casual did in Awakening. I'm of the belief that this is to ease players into the hader difficulties, notably Nohr Lunatic+. The main game is aleady said to be more diffricult, but that doesn't stop IS wanting to make money off of both games and I think this would be a fair way to accomplish that.

Point is we don't have enough info to be so upset over it lol.

My thoughts emphasized.

[Irysa]

Out of curiosity, would those of you who believe optional things and choices are always fine agree with this hypothetical?

A game begins, and right at the start of the game, one can easily gain access to a gamebreaking item. Or, said gamebreaking item is given to you automatically.

Now it is a choice to use this item, but is criticism towards the fact that this item exists and undermines many considerations within the game from a design perspective really so irrational? In FE terms, many have criticised the abundance of unlimited range Warp in FE11 for example, as it essentially trivialises any potential difficulty a player could have once they have two warpers. Warp bosskiller, kill boss, warp marth, seize.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Irysa

[Neoleo21]

Out of curiosity, would those of you who believe optional things and choices are always fine agree with this hypothetical?

A game begins, and right at the start of the game, one can easily gain access to a gamebreaking item. Or, said gamebreaking item is given to you automatically.

Now it is a choice to use this item, but is criticism towards the fact that this item exists and undermines many considerations within the game from a design perspective really so irrational? In FE terms, many have criticised the abundance of unlimited range Warp in FE11 for example, as it essentially trivialises any potential difficulty a player could have once they have two warpers. Warp bosskiller, kill boss, warp marth, seize.

At which the question then becomes when you have access to stuff like this, do you want to do this method? If Shadow Dragon had an amazing story, it could justify this as a method to just speed through and get the parts the player wants.

[Irysa]

So again, I ask, is it unfair/irrational to criticise a game for having such a "choice"? Design wise, it seems pretty reasonable to me to point it out as something that they feel detracts from the game. I enjoy Shadow Dragon, but I think having a more balanced Warp Staff would make the game better.

[Tangerine]

Out of curiosity, would those of you who believe optional things and choices are always fine agree with this hypothetical?

A game begins, and right at the start of the game, one can easily gain access to a gamebreaking item. Or, said gamebreaking item is given to you automatically.

Now it is a choice to use this item, but is criticism towards the fact that this item exists and undermines many considerations within the game from a design perspective really so irrational? In FE terms, many have criticised the abundance of unlimited range Warp in FE11 for example, as it essentially trivialises any potential difficulty a player could have once they have two warpers. Warp bosskiller, kill boss, warp marth, seize.

You're essentially making the jeigan argument that we've all heard before, except with a new coat of paint. Marcus, Seth, Titania, etc are your "optional gamebreakers". There are players who don't like jeigans and don't use them, but for the most part their addition is valued by the general playerbase. Likewise, there are players who do not use Warp staves to cheese levels and there are ones who do. These are consistent throughout all modes and all difficulty levels, you do not even have the option to remove them and they give you the capability to bypass otherwise difficult levels.

The difference here is that you are choosing from the start what you are facing and what options you have available to you throughout a playthrough based on the mode you select. Choose a harder difficulty for more challenge and tougher mechanics, choose an easier one for less. It literally does not hurt ANYONE to have easier difficulties for players who do not want to play a challenging game. If you're arguing that some players may not have the willpower to choose a higher difficulty setting when they want to play one because an easier one is available, then I honestly have no idea what to tell those people other than that they need some type of theraputic assistance lol.

I have never seen such passionate resistance to easier difficulty levels than I have from this fanbase.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Tangerine

[Jedi]

Out of curiosity, would those of you who believe optional things and choices are always fine agree with this hypothetical?

A game begins, and right at the start of the game, one can easily gain access to a gamebreaking item. Or, said gamebreaking item is given to you automatically.

Now it is a choice to use this item, but is criticism towards the fact that this item exists and undermines many considerations within the game from a design perspective really so irrational? In FE terms, many have criticised the abundance of unlimited range Warp in FE11 for example, as it essentially trivialises any potential difficulty a player could have once they have two warpers. Warp bosskiller, kill boss, warp marth, seize.

We have Marcus (FE7), Seth (FE8) and various other gamebreakers.

We tend to pick if we use them or not too. Depending on the player. I agree with Tangerine, I haven't seen this kind of residence to an optional easier difficulty level as I have here.

[goodperson707]

^ oh i have seen similar things on lots of boards, they just normally find other ways to go about it than the difficulty. By the next game or two there will probably be passionate resistance to the next thing or some-such that makes the new game horrible and an abomination to the spirt of the series.

Edited May 13, 2015 by goodperson707

[Irysa]

You're essentially making the jeigan argument that we've all heard before, except with a new coat of paint. Marcus, Seth, Titania, etc are your "optional gamebreakers". There are players who don't like jeigans and don't use them, but for the most part their addition is valued by the general playerbase. Likewise, there are players who do not use Warp staves to cheese levels and there are ones who do. These are consistent throughout all modes and all difficulty levels, you do not even have the option to remove them and they give you the capability to bypass otherwise difficult levels.

The difference here is that you are choosing from the start what you are facing and what options you have available to you throughout a playthrough based on the mode you select. Choose a harder difficulty for more challenge and tougher mechanics, choose an easier one for less. It literally does not hurt ANYONE to have easier difficulties for players who do not want to play a challenging game. If you're arguing that some players may not have the willpower to choose a higher difficulty setting when they want to play one because an easier one is available, then I honestly have no idea what to tell those people other than that they need some type of theraputic assistance lol.

We have Marcus (FE7), Seth (FE8) and various other gamebreakers.

I think an argument can be made for a Jeigan's purposeful existance and them as a positive force for the game, in the context of the game's balance as a whole. That is, that there's an interesting dynamic in how to best utilise powerful earlygame units, and there are pros and cons and considerations to be made about each individual use, much like powerful weapons. That being said, I do think they could be tweaked. FE7 Marcus should really not be capable of ORKOing so many of the enemies within the game with a Javelin at base. FE8 Seth could stand to have worse growths, etc. This is not very different from the FE11 Warp Staff complaint really, it's just that the Jeigans are less ridiculous in terms of removing considerations, and work within a more balanced framework. Their existance doesn't allow you to ignore about 70% of the game, maybe something closer to 30%.

Essentially, I do consider them to have significant negatives in their current form, and have views on how they could be better implemented (I think FE6 Marcus is basically perfect). Same goes for "easier" difficulties.

I have never seen such passionate resistance to easier difficulty levels than I have from this fanbase.

I'm not bothered by lower difficulties actually. Add as many lower difficulties as you want, I'm just of the opinion that removing permadeath's existance isn't neccessary in order to lower difficulty.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Irysa

[Tangerine]

So what do you have a problem with exactly? This game has modes that do not feature the mechanic you take issue with. The easy modes are meant to be easy, and permanent death is one of the things that shy newbies away from the series. The way these difficulty modes are set up, this is as if you had a mode to select that "make the jeigans less of a crutch" or "removed/nerfed warp staves". I'm not sure how it could possibly be argued that it negatively affects your experience with the game when they are giving you the option to not have those crutches available to you, something the older FE games never did.

There are only positives to a wider range of difficulty levels. It's clear that IS is not aiming to please the veteran FE players with the inclusion of easier difficulty modes, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the underlying issue behind all of these complaints.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Tangerine

[eclipse]

Out of curiosity, would those of you who believe optional things and choices are always fine agree with this hypothetical?

A game begins, and right at the start of the game, one can easily gain access to a gamebreaking item. Or, said gamebreaking item is given to you automatically.

Now it is a choice to use this item, but is criticism towards the fact that this item exists and undermines many considerations within the game from a design perspective really so irrational? In FE terms, many have criticised the abundance of unlimited range Warp in FE11 for example, as it essentially trivialises any potential difficulty a player could have once they have two warpers. Warp bosskiller, kill boss, warp marth, seize.

My biggest beef with Warp was the fact that it sold for 0G.

As for gamebreaking item. . .you're a little late for that. Sigurd/Seth want a word with you.

---

For the topic itself. . .I'll wait and see. I think there's more to it than simply lowering the bar for entry.

[Irysa]

So what do you have a problem with exactly? This game has modes that do not feature the mechanic you take issue with. The easy modes are meant to be easy, and permanent death is one of the things that shy newbies away from the series. The way these difficulty modes are set up, this is as if you had a mode to select that "make the jeigans less of a crutch" or "removed/nerfed warp staves". I'm not sure how it could possibly be argued that it negatively affects your experience with the game when they are giving you the option to not have those crutches available to you, something the older FE games never did.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that one cannot have the opinion that it's better to simply have something not exist in the first place, and that it's very existance detracts from the game, even if it is optional. A separate mode which reduces the stats or growths of Jeigans or has nerfed Warp Staves/none of them at all begs the question of why the base game simply doesn't do as such in the first place. I see it as far more sensible to create cohesion across the game. If Warp is so broken it requires a mode to make it not broken, shouldn't Warp be addressed directly instead of offering a way to remove it from existance? This strikes me as very roundabout.

Or, to look at it non mechanically, I can arbitrarily ignore a part of support dialogue that I think is poor characterisation or diminishes a character I otherwise like (I already do this in FE12 because I loathe so many of it's support conversations), but is it really appropriate to counter dissaproval towards it with "You don't have to read that part of the dialogue"? Something being optional is not, as I see it, a mandate for it to exist.

There are only positives to a wider range of difficulty levels.

Well, I could make an argument about how it reduces the parity of each individual player's experience, and as a result diminishes the ability for players to share and communicate those experiences in solidarity. Although this is of less concern to me (in that I'm not interested in arguing it), I can see it as a counterargument.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Irysa

[Tangerine]

Sure, but that doesn't mean that one cannot have the opinion that it's better to simply have something not exist in the first place, and that it's very existance detracts from the game, even if it is optional. A separate mode which reduces the stats or growths of Jeigans or has nerfed Warp Staves/none of them at all begs the question of why the base game simply doesn't do as such in the first place. I see it as far more sensible to create cohesion across the game. If Warp is so broken it requires a mode to make it not broken, shouldn't Warp be addressed directly instead of offering a way to remove it from existance? This strikes me as very roundabout.

Or, to look at it non mechanically, I can arbitrarily ignore a part of support dialogue that I think is poor characterisation or diminishes a character I otherwise like (I already do this in FE12 because I loathe so many of it's support conversations), but is it really appropriate to counter dissaproval towards it with "You don't have to read that part of the dialogue"? Something being optional is not, as I see it, a mandate for it to exist.

Because it gives an easier option to casual players and a harder option to veteran players....

[Irysa]

Yes, but it is a roundabout solution to the problem, as I stated. Is it not possible to create easier options and harder options without such divergence? I don't think you read the rest of the sentence - if something is actually broken, shouldn't it be adjusted directly, and then difficulty designed around that new adjustment rather than simply having the option to remove it's existance? If a window is broken, rather than giving someone a choice between boarding up the window and leaving it as it is, it would make more sense to actually repair the window.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Irysa

[Tangerine]

Sure, it's possible to just lower the stats of enemies and make less spawn. But that's not inherently better. IS clearly had one goal in mind when creating the new difficulty modes: to make FE more accessible to casual players.

Casual and Phoenix mode are not 'broken', because their intentions are to be entry-level difficulties for casual players who are intimidated by permadeath. Harder difficulties without the same crutches are aimed toward veteran players who do not wish to have their hand held.

[Irysa]

Sure, it's possible to just lower the stats of enemies and make less spawn. But that's not inherently better.

It's not inherantly worse either, but to me it's a far more intuitive way to implement difficulty curves, rather then actively removing mechanics.

IS clearly had one goal in mind when creating the new difficulty modes: to make FE more accessible to casual players.

Well, their approach wasn't always difficulty modes, they've done a variety of things across the series. I mean, clutch characters have existed in the series before to make them easier, the concept itself isn't new, it's the approach.

Casual and Phoenix mode are not 'broken', because their intentions are to be entry-level difficulties for casual players who are intimidated by permadeath. Harder difficulties without the same crutches are aimed toward veteran players who do not wish to have their hand held.

I was not attempting to insinuate that they are broken, I was drawing on an analogy to "player choice", and making a case for more choice not neccessarily being a good thing. BrightBow previously made an interesting point in a prior thread where he pointed out it would be easy to create a mode where player characters are not removed from the battlefield upon reaching 0 HP unless the player decides they have died. This would certainly make the game easier (you can't lose unless you say you lose, essentially), but it would serves as a very unelegant way of trying to diminish difficulty for players.

[Tangerine]

It's not inherantly worse either, but to me it's a far more intuitive way to implement difficulty curves, rather then actively removing mechanics.

But it's not more intuitive, because simply lowering the difficulty does not resolve the main deterrent new players have when looking to get into the series: permadeath. Awakening's sales speak for itself, they succeeded in attracting the crowd they were aiming for.

Well, their approach wasn't always difficulty modes, they've done a variety of things across the series. I mean, clutch characters have existed in the series before to make them easier, the concept itself isn't new, it's the approach.

The new approach worked. Biggest difference between them all.

[Irysa]

But it's not more intuitive, because simply lowering the difficulty does not resolve the main deterrent new players have when looking to get into the series: permadeath. Awakening's sales speak for itself, they succeeded in attracting the crowd they were aiming for.

Dunno, I've managed to convince people to try the series out with the easier games in franchise before, or on lower difficulties. Reduced statistical prominence of enemies works for people who solely have difficulty concerns, but it won't work if they fundamentally reject permadeath. And in the case of the latter, I'd say that's not something worth compromising - if you hate permadeath so much that you can't even play the game on the lowest difficulty possible, then so be it.

Equally, I dislike the abundance of QTEs in titles created by Platinum Games enough that I don't really have interest in playing their games, and don't see a need for them to remove them all for me/people like me - they are their own creations and don't need to be adjusted, even if I am a fan of action games and may enjoy them otherwise. Mechanically speaking, they're too ingrained into the way the games work to simply just be removed.

The new approach worked. Biggest difference between them all

I'd contest that Awakening's sales have a lot less to do with Casual Mode than you are attributing to them. Undoubtedly, it drew support, but the marketing and style shift towards facilitating more contemporary anime SRPG trends probably had more of a greater impact than anything else.

If we want Fire Emblem to continue to succeed here in the west,

From the poster below/after me, since I don't want to post again so quickly, not everyone who likes Fire Emblem places the importance of it continuing above all else.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Irysa