Does it bother anybody else that Male!Kamui is getting much more coverage?

[IceBuster573]

My point was that Aqua would (obviously) be portrayed as a female in all instances and there would be no problems, whereas if Kamui was indeed primarily depicted as a male like Smash!Robin then evidently some people would get upset. I'm not sure if they would ever go with Femui as the char select screen default unless the female was the more iconic representation of the character, though there wouldn't be anything wrong with it.

Also (sorry for going way off topic) while it's cool that Kamui can halfshift into a dragon and all, I feel that Smash players should be enlightened on the fact that there do indeed exist Fire Emblem characters that don't use swords (too bad she still has blue hair though)

Is it doubtful? Sure. However, I don't think there would be a noticeable difference in which gender of Kamui is "iconic". Robin didn't really have an "iconic" look until Smash decide to roll with default everything (including gender since you have to switch to the female model of Robin in Awakening).

Although, we wouldn't have this issue if there weren't any player characters (not that I hate Fire Emblem MUs, but I do hate the problems that come with them like this one). Oh and Smash fans in particular really need to get over the sword and blue hair. I swear I think people go into a blind rage at the slightest image of a character using sword despite how unique the playstyle would be.

But I really wouldn't mind a good Female protagonist in some future FE.

Not to start any arguments, but do you mean ANOTHER good female protagonist?

[Sunwoo]

I always advocated amiibos for female Villager and male WFT.

I am not referring specifically to you or only to you, though. From what I've seen around in the places I frequent, the common opinion is that a significant number of people who treat female Robin like she is the default option don't give a fuck about which of the villager or WFT's genders are the default.

If you're one of the few who advocates for amiibos of both genders, regardless of individual character, more power to you, but that isn't the impression I'm getting from most other people I've observed.

EDIT: Basically my point is that sometimes I feel that people are very … preferential as to what to get upset about, and if certain cases were reversed no one would give a fuck. It's not limited to just this topic specifically.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Sunwoo

[Crysta]

I do think it will continue to be a case of IS thinking people will be more attracted to a male protagonist because it's been an ingrained belief for quite awhile, although I suspect it's not as ironclad as they actually think it is. And I think they're slowly inching forward, towards more equal representation.

There is a 200% chance my boyfriend will choose the F!Kamui on his default run and he's not feminine at all. That's what he did with Robin, and that's what he's been doing with his RPG characters whenever he's had a chance for years now. And he's not the only very heterosexual male friend I know who has begun to do this. People get curious, men included. Or the difference just isn't really that big of a deal lol.

[Florete]

I am not referring specifically to you or only to you, though. From what I've seen around in the places I frequent, the common opinion is that a significant number of people who treat female Robin like she is the default option don't give a fuck about which of the villager or WFT's genders are the default.

If you're one of the few who advocates for amiibos of both genders, regardless of individual character, more power to you, but that isn't the impression I'm getting from most other people I've observed.

EDIT: Basically my point is that sometimes I feel that people are very preferential as to what to get upset about, and if certain cases were reversed no one would give a fuck. It's not limited to just this topic specifically.

It's probably just a case of more people being familiar with Robin than Villager or WFT. I'm sure Animal Crossing fans who play as a girl in those games, but don't play FE, probably care about a female Villager amiibo much more than female Robin. And Smash players mostly aren't Wii Fit players, so...

One could also argue that Robin is more of a "character" than them what with dialogue and development, stuff WFT and Villager don't really have. This can make it more likely for people to care about Robin over them. Especially WFT.

[Bovinian]

I am not referring specifically to you or only to you, though. From what I've seen around in the places I frequent, the common opinion is that a significant number of people who treat female Robin like she is the default option don't give a fuck about which of the villager or WFT's genders are the default.

If you're one of the few who advocates for amiibos of both genders, regardless of individual character, more power to you, but that isn't the impression I'm getting from most other people I've observed.

EDIT: Basically my point is that sometimes I feel that people are very … preferential as to what to get upset about, and if certain cases were reversed no one would give a fuck. It's not limited to just this topic specifically.

It's probably because those people view female Robin as a waifu attractive anime-esque female character, whereas Animal Crossing villager looks like something out of a little kid's TV show and WFT is...a mannequin

EDIT: ^ Also what RFoF said. But let's be real, a lot of them are just guys who think female Robin is cute

Edited May 20, 2015 by Bovinian

[Rutger]

Not to start any arguments, but do you mean ANOTHER good female protagonist?

Not really, I haven't beaten FE1~4 yet but most main characters from the FEs that I've played are okey-ish at best for me, including the girls. What I really wanted to say is that I want a FE story completely based around a badass female character without some other character stealing the spotlight.

Honestly, I just want a good main character in general.

[Sunwoo]

@RFoF and Bovinian: And I totally get that. But my point is, that kind of inconsistency just really bugs the fuck out of me and is the only real problem I have with these kinds of arguments. It's like, at the very least just be honest and admit that you like them more because they're a girl, I don't have a problem with that. It's only when people try to pull out half-assed justifications that make no sense.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Sunwoo

[goodperson707]

So much to respond to. This is someone's job. They can probably switch out in a matter of seconds (us, the players, can get a similar inventory shot in Awakening in a matter of minutes. A developer should have no trouble). It is no excuse. These things are never intentional. No one is sitting around thinking Nintendo and IS have some grand scheme to make MKamui the canon/default/whatever Kamui. It's a case persistent subconscious sexism. It's not the worst offender in the industry by any means, but it's certainly not very progressive. Just, like, compare it to the marketing for Pokemon OR/AS. There was plenty of pre-release footage, and almost all of it featured Brendan and May equally. For example, they had videos showcasing new mega evolutions, and for each one they switched off the character being used. That was a good way to do it. (Unfortunately, the demo didn't let you pick or switch off and used only the boy, but I guess no one's perfect) Then look at Mass Effect, where you probably wouldn't even know Shepard can be female unless you're told about it elsewhere (<- how I found out) or watch someone play the game since male Shepard is everywhere. Games with a choice of gender never give more attention to the woman, and usually don't give equal treatment, either. I always advocated amiibos for female Villager and male WFT. Precisely. The trailer uses exclusively male Kamui. Aside from about two screenshots, female Kamui is only seen alongside male Kamui. Male Kamui is on his own much more often. I don't think anyone said this, but there is a clear lack of understanding of gender imbalance issues from some posters in this thread. Lack of understanding =/= apathetic. What I dislike is that anyone who agrees is apparently making a mountain out of a molehill and just shouldn't care at all that female Kamui is clearly getting the shaft.

okay than it does bother me that it is unbalanced in the trailer i have problems remembering images, and my eyesight is not great, but for the map sprites, while it does show that most video game designers are male it is not quite equivalent to say only having male Kaimui on the cover which thank god isn't actually happening.

Though i do agree that the trailer is a problem as that is directly showing off the game so that does bother me, My problem is that i don't believe that all forms of info are equivalent so bringing up the scans as equivalent to the boxart is a little bit annoying

[IceBuster573]

Not really, I haven't beaten FE1~4 yet but most main characters from the FEs that I've played are okey-ish at best for me, including the girls. What I really wanted to say is that I want a FE story completely based around a badass female character without some other character stealing the spotlight.

Honestly, I just want a good main character in general.

So you want female Radiant Dawn Ike? Who tends to be criticized as boring? Although, I do agree in wanting a female protagonist that doesn't have to share a spotlight. Best would probably be...Eirika and I think Eirika has the better character arc than Ephraim so she gets that at least.

Celica too. But I never played Gaiden.

[DRTJR]

While I would like an equal percentage of female Kamui in advertising, It is a probably valid point since 82% of player played as male Shepard, A lot of people when given the choice pick to go through games as a dude. I don't know how many male MU's there were in comparison to female MU's but if it were a landslide for Dude robin I would not be surprised. Is it a problem, not really so long as the female Kamui gets the same amount of stuff as male Kamui and it's the same quality as his unique stuff, which will be select supports. So long as the game content is equal then the advertising is a fleeting issue that will fade into history.

[Rutger]

So you want female Radiant Dawn Ike? Who tends to be criticized as boring? Although, I do agree in wanting a female protagonist that doesn't have to share a spotlight. Best would probably be...Eirika and I think Eirika has the better character arc than Ephraim so she gets that at least.

Celica too. But I never played Gaiden.

I was thinking more of a character similar to Yang Wenli from the series Legend of Galatic Heroes (Not sure you will get the reference). Any character that has the guts and knowledge to make other smart people look like fools is a badass in my book.

To be fair, this is all my taste. I'm pretty sure a lot of people love the FEs main characters and there is really nothing wrong with that.

[Crysta]

While I would like an equal percentage of female Kamui in advertising, It is a probably valid point since 82% of player played as male Shepard, A lot of people when given the choice pick to go through games as a dude. I don't know how many male MU's there were in comparison to female MU's but if it were a landslide for Dude robin I would not be surprised. Is it a problem, not really so long as the female Kamui gets the same amount of stuff as male Kamui and it's the same quality as his unique stuff, which will be select supports. So long as the game content is equal then the advertising is a fleeting issue that will fade into history.

I think people tend to just believe this more than it actually is. I would be curious about actual numbers.

I'm not sure if Fire Emblem shares the same fanbase as Mass Effect, either. It is a FPS as well, which does tend to skew maleward.

EDIT: Has anyone done a M!Robin versus F!Robin poll here? I would be surprised if they haven't.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Crysta

[Florete]

I think people tend to just believe this more than it actually is. I would be curious about actual numbers.

I'm not sure if Fire Emblem shares the same fanbase as Mass Effect, either. It is a FPS as well, which does tend to skew maleward.

EDIT: Has anyone done a M!Robin versus F!Robin poll here? I would be surprised if they haven't.

Mass Effect isn't fps, but you're right that the situations here are much, much different. Not even just the style of the games themselves, but the marketing; I only bothered with Mass Effect when I found out Shepard could be a woman, which was by no means clear to see from the perspective of someone not really following it. How many people might have played the game if only they'd known? Even so, apparently there was some outcry over her getting ignored, prompting Bioware to make promotional art and a couple trailers for her.

Fire Emblem definitely has a larger female fanbase than Mass Effect.

[DRTJR]

Mass Effect isn't fps, but you're right that the situations here are much, much different. Not even just the style of the games themselves, but the marketing; I only bothered with Mass Effect when I found out Shepard could be a woman, which was by no means clear to see from the perspective of someone not really following it. How many people might have played the game if only they'd known? Even so, apparently there was some outcry over her getting ignored, prompting Bioware to make promotional art and a couple trailers for her.

Fire Emblem definitely has a larger female fanbase than Mass Effect.

I bring up Mass Effect since that was the only game I could find the numbers for, If I could find the numbers for something closer I would have used them, but self insert protagonists are much rarer in JRPGs than WRPGs and ME/DA are closer to Fire Emblem in tone than an Elder scrolls or WoW. Still from my small base of people I know who play FE it's three to one in favor of playing as a dude.

Personaly I think having female Kamui in more ads can only be a good thing, but cynically I think having female Kamui on the cover is the best that can be asked for.

[Crysta]

Using your group of friends probably isn't the most accurate sample. Mine played F!Robin by a large margin, male and female.

But I can understand why you would think it may be an accurate representation.

If I were to make bets, I would put it at 60:40 in favor of M!Robin... just based on the M:F ratio I seem to find here lol.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Crysta

[DRTJR]

Using your group of friends is never an accurate group to poll from, especially since they will likely be similar in taste to you. If I were to guess the percentage of the greater FE fandom I would guess it would probably be 66/33 in favor of Male Kamui, but again Fandom sites are no where close to an accurate representation.

Using Mass Effect, the OFFICIAL site at the time, BSN, the Majority of BSNers use Fem!Shep, which Fem!Shep is 18% of the total Sheps. and since as a English fan site for a Japanese series I am confident that even a poll here would not accurately mirror the actual statistic of hard core Fire Emblem fans abroad.

[Mysterique Sign]

Agreed. It sucks, but that's life.

Sidenote, do you think the game would look significantly different if they pushed the female protagonist way more?

Like, there are certain story things we assume, but would we view them differently if we saw it from a female point of view?

There'd probably be fewer threads asking if we can bang Camilla, a net gain, imo

[Crysta]

No, probably not.

But the fans here also count, not just the hard core Fire Emblem Japanese fans, and they would also make up part of the sample. It would at least adequately mirror the trend for that group, even if it may be smaller (but getting considerably bigger).

And I have a really, really hard time believing it would yield and 80:20 ratio overall like in Mass Effect (apparently). I don't think that's a realistic ratio for most games nowadays, in spite of the litany of "omg bejeweled players don't count" in YouTube videos concerning the growth of the female gamer population.

[DRTJR]

There'd probably be fewer threads asking if we can bang Camilla, a net gain, imo

There would be more "Can we Bang Marx" threads though... actually now that I think about it the "Can we Bang Camilla" threads would be just as prevalent if not more.

No, probably not.

But the fans here also count, not just the hard core Fire Emblem Japanese fans, and they would also make up part of the sample. It would at least adequately mirror the trend for that group, even if it may be smaller (but getting considerably bigger).

And I have a really, really hard time believing it would yield and 80:20 ratio overall like in Mass Effect (apparently). I don't think that's a realistic ratio for most games nowadays, in spite of the litany of "omg bejeweled players don't count" in YouTube videos concerning the growth of the female gamer population.

Last time I stood in line for a game, It was Dragon Age Inquisiton, there were three women there who were not employees, is three out of 37 people is probibly not the actual number of men who bought DA:I vs. women who did the same, I highly doubt it but until I see the analytics I will trust by eyes.

Side note, There where more women standing in freezing temps to pick up Halo Wars then guys, there where six total but still, Halo Wars... fun game.

[Crysta]

I pre-ordered DA:I. Why the fuck would I stand in line for it?

But fair enough.

EDIT: Digitally I mean.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Crysta

[DRTJR]

I pre-ordered DA:I. Why the fuck would I stand in line for it?

But fair enough.

EDIT: Digitally I mean.

I save up for the Super dupper editions that come with stuff, I got the ink quill and everything..., and if I get them at stores I like they get to know me and the people there inform me of cool stuff that is down the pike.

I've lost too many specialty stores in my time to go pure digital. Support your local shops, with out support from us your beloved game stores will become just another shop that sells overpriced skinny jeans at your shopping center.

[Crysta]

But I get my employee discount at Target! D:

[Loki Laufeyson]

who cares? gender literally doesn't matter.

So says the one whos gender is always visible in media. And rarely portrayed as an object.

It doesn't bother me, I prefer playing as a guy 99% of the time anyway. This is a silly thing to complain about.

*eyeroll* Yes because complaining about have equal representation is just plain silly. Just because you play as a dude 99% percent of the time. That logic.

While i personally dont have a problem with how the Kamuis are being marketed, i see a very ugly underlying issue here in some of these replies. People want to see more female protagonists in games because there is not enough of them. Despite the gaming population being 50% female, games are still marketed to a male demographic, and thats just lazy and bullshit. While FE with Awakening and now this game, have been pretty good at marketing to a wide audience, concern about preferring to market the male protagonist over the female one is not unfounded. I hope when the game hits internationally, we will see a more balanced look at our protagonist and the options of how they can look.

[3Comrades]

First of all, I am an American woman, so how they advertise it in Japan really isn't a thing I feel I can critique, they aren't aiming it at me, and then to have the hubris for me to be annoyed they are not aiming at me is...strange. Also dyed in the wool feminist, but idk I feel the feminist movement is getting weirdly picky these days about what they complain about.

And, no. As long as they make it clear that both are playable, I am good. Eventually this may be a non issue, but for now, it is such a minor issue since they cover the bases, F! Kamui is possible. I think Fire emblem's gender issues have little to nothing to do with marketing and can be stated as a problem on how characters are portrayed. Even then, not really something I can comment on and something that applies more toward their main audience.

I feel this argument in general applies more toward games like Persona that only ever have a female protagonist if a male one is there as well, and much less accessible. Still, not as much as a problem in gamer culture as how women are generally treated in games as sex objects. Looks being so dependent that most female characters are assumed to be designed to be attractive, and failures if they are not. We are applying this more and more to male characters which is a mistake since now men have this weird issue as well, and 2 groups being sexualized, just isn't as good as none.

Women being defined by their gender first and people second often dehumanizes them in games and is an issue. Something very common in JRPGs, and women usually bring up gender way more often than men to establish propriety, or difference to the norm. The issue isn't sexism, but redefining women as normal people. Not saying there can't be any sexy characters, or that no one can be feminine/masculine, but that if every character is designed that way it instills the idea women have one major use, and are more tied to their gender than men so to be less nuanced and 1 dimensional, which divides the sexes and contributes to sexism.

As far as these things go, I won't apply it to another country's media, and they seem more systematic issues than just who is shown more, which in my opinion is fine?

[B.Leu]

Overcomplicated talk ahead. :p

The only thing I don't like about MKamui is his ridiculous shota-look. FKamui's design is perfect. That's it.

3Comrades => to be fair, male characters in JRPG have the same problems, not at the same level though.

No matter, I'm not gonna talk more about it any further, don't want a headache. :p