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Chiki
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What gets her from not being among the best is probably the fact that she has a Gauge (at least before the Demi Band, and even then, it reduces her stats) and that she lacks 2-range. She's pretty good, still. I recall her being Top of Upper Mid or so.

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I always thought a lot of the armor knights were overlooked due to their low Mov; Oswin (FE7) and Dashin (FE5) come to mind. Part of it might be due to units like Bors from FE6 who genuinely suck.

Well, armour knights can be awesome as long as you don't concern yourself with turn count. I actually think that Shadow Dragon does a good job with armoured knights, since so many enemies come from behind you as you move through the chapter, they get a lot of opportunities to shine. It's a shame Draug and Roger are so subpar though.

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It seems FE9 Lethe is hugely underrated. In my playthroughs of that game she is always a powerhouse in all stages of the game and never needs any extra BEXP or stat enhancers. Yeah, there is the transformation gauge but she enters kitty form turn 1 and by the time she untransforms most things are dead. Most people also seem to consider Elincia bad, but she always caps magic quickly and has canto powers so she is always one of my physic units.

I also consider Lyn to be the best FE7 lord.

FE9 Elincia has no availability to speak of, and FE9 in general has a very low demand for staff users since the enemies do so little damage. Who exactly is she supposed to be better than? Everyone who joins before her is better, barring massive failures like Bastian maybe.

Lyn is awful. I can see an argument for finding her better than Eliwood, but there's no way she can keep up with Hector. The things Lyn is effective against with Mani Katti get OHKO'd by Wolf Beil, so what exactly is Lyn superior against offensively? Because defensively it's no contest.

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Lyn is better offensively against every enemy that Hector can't double or OHKO, presumably (although this really only applies to Lyn Mode Lyn, since otherwise Lyn is generally too weak to ORKO those enemies as well); from the top of my head, this would be mercs, myrms, archers, pirates, and thieves. My stance is Hector's offense isn't significantly weaker to offset his defense advantage, but yeah.

Edited by Refa
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Well, armour knights can be awesome as long as you don't concern yourself with turn count. I actually think that Shadow Dragon does a good job with armoured knights, since so many enemies come from behind you as you move through the chapter, they get a lot of opportunities to shine. It's a shame Draug and Roger are so subpar though.

Movement isn't even their main problem, it's that the core concept of the class is fundamentally flawed. Outside of RD at least.

Armored Knights basically suck at everything but have an high defense value. So the purpose of this class is to be defensive, they are meant to be hard to kill.

But since one of their bad stats includes speed, they end up getting double attacked and end up taking twice as much damage as everyone else. A few more points of Defense don't make up for that. And this is before you even factor in all those can openers in the game: Anti armor weapons and magic as a whole.

However, if one has sooo much defense that enemies can barely scratch them, then the durability suddenly skyrockets even when suffering double attacks. But enemies who have this little attack power will also have trouble killing units with only average defense, rendering them unnecessary.

So basically, if the enemy is so strong that you need a specialist in regards to "not dying", Armored Knights will fail particular hard. They suck at doing the one thing that is the class's entire purpose of existing.

Another problem is EXP. In order to gain stronger and to keep up with everyone, one needs to kill enemies. But not only can these guys not double attack, they are also inaccurate and will often miss the one attack that they can throw out. As a result, they are not good at getting EXP either. And since they are the class who is the fastest to get double attacked by the enemy, they will also get punished particularly hard for falling behind.

Edited by BrightBow
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Movement isn't even their main problem, it's that the core concept of the class is fundamentally flawed. Outside of RD at least.

Armored Knights basically suck at everything but have an high defense value. So the purpose of this class is to be defensive, they are meant to be hard to kill.

But since one of their bad stats includes speed, they end up getting double attacked and end up taking twice as much damage as everyone else. A few more points of Defense don't make up for that. And this is before you even factor in all those can openers in the game: Anti armor weapons and magic as a whole.

However, if one has sooo much defense that enemies can barely scratch them, then the durability suddenly skyrockets even when suffering double attacks. But enemies who have this little attack power will also have trouble killing units with only average defense, rendering them unnecessary.

So basically, if the enemy is so strong that you need a specialist in regards to "not dying", Armored Knights will fail particular hard. They suck at doing the one thing that is the class's entire purpose of existing.

Another problem is EXP. In order to gain stronger and to keep up with everyone, one needs to kill enemies. But not only can these guys not double attack, they are also inaccurate and will often miss the one attack that they can throw out. As a result, they are not good at getting EXP either. And since they are the class who is the fastest to get double attacked by the enemy, they will also get punished particularly hard for falling behind.

I agree with most of this. To balance this out, AKs need higher base stats as well as a better promotion. The Armors in Tellius (RD) actually were a threat for that reason. Hard to double, high defense, hit hard. They're the ideal enemy class, but not necessarily the most ideal player ones.

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FE9 Elincia has no availability to speak of, and FE9 in general has a very low demand for staff users since the enemies do so little damage. Who exactly is she supposed to be better than? Everyone who joins before her is better, barring massive failures like Bastian maybe.

Lyn is awful. I can see an argument for finding her better than Eliwood, but there's no way she can keep up with Hector. The things Lyn is effective against with Mani Katti get OHKO'd by Wolf Beil, so what exactly is Lyn superior against offensively? Because defensively it's no contest.

I guess I should have specified more what I mean about Lyn. I understand that probably statistically Hector is better but when actually playing the game my Lyns seem to be just in general better. For starters I usually play in Hector's mode meaning that he has an incredibly late promotion giving him three missions to level up before endgame, not unreedemable just a small problem. Meanwhile I give Lyn the first heaven seal because Eliwood is usually garbage (on my most recent play through he had 10 strength at 20/10) so while I am not using Hector to him being only okay and an EXP waste at a capped out 20 Lyn is kicking butt and taking names. Also even with them both at 20/20 their strength isn't usually miles apart with my Hectors usually only coming 4-6 strength points ahead and Lyn being 7-8 skill and speed points ahead of him. Pretty much the only things she can't ORKO are generals and Wyvern Lords and the Mani Katti helps out with generals, or will likely crit and kill the enemy. The last thing to note is I just like the Swordmaster class in general, which Lyn obviously is designed off of. So, yeah will 20/20 Hector be a better powerhouse than Lyn, yes. However, Lyn is more helpful for a larger portion of the game even if he outclasses her a bit in endgame. Again, IMO.

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I agree with most of this. To balance this out, AKs need higher base stats as well as a better promotion. The Armors in Tellius (RD) actually were a threat for that reason. Hard to double, high defense, hit hard. They're the ideal enemy class, but not necessarily the most ideal player ones.

I think they could work as player units too if enemy mages were basically able to Thanibomb them. It's just too bad that mages in RD were as weak as they were. I wonder how it would have affected the game's flow if they were simply stronger.

Edited by BrightBow
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Movement isn't even their main problem, it's that the core concept of the class is fundamentally flawed. Outside of RD at least.

Armored Knights basically suck at everything but have an high defense value. So the purpose of this class is to be defensive, they are meant to be hard to kill.

But since one of their bad stats includes speed, they end up getting double attacked and end up taking twice as much damage as everyone else. A few more points of Defense don't make up for that. And this is before you even factor in all those can openers in the game: Anti armor weapons and magic as a whole.

However, if one has sooo much defense that enemies can barely scratch them, then the durability suddenly skyrockets even when suffering double attacks. But enemies who have this little attack power will also have trouble killing units with only average defense, rendering them unnecessary.

So basically, if the enemy is so strong that you need a specialist in regards to "not dying", Armored Knights will fail particular hard. They suck at doing the one thing that is the class's entire purpose of existing.

Another problem is EXP. In order to gain stronger and to keep up with everyone, one needs to kill enemies. But not only can these guys not double attack, they are also inaccurate and will often miss the one attack that they can throw out. As a result, they are not good at getting EXP either. And since they are the class who is the fastest to get double attacked by the enemy, they will also get punished particularly hard for falling behind.

I meant to take issue with a few things, but then I realized I was just thinking of a few particularly good armors (i.e. FE10!Gatrie, partly Oswin). Like, in a game like FE8, even though Gilliam is a decent wall, the enemies aren't all that threatening in the first place so it's not like you need him.

I concede to you, good sir. Especially since Oswin and Dashin aren't really overlooked anyway. (Oswin's contributions are pretty much sufficiently recognized, and Dashin is really just good in Manster.)

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I always thought a lot of the armor knights were overlooked due to their low Mov; Oswin (FE7) and Dashin (FE5) come to mind. Part of it might be due to units like Bors from FE6 who genuinely suck.

I love using Dalshin fsr, but there are lots of hammers on enemies in thracia...IIRC. In addition to typical armor woes such as low move, this is a big negative for him.

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I guess I should have specified more what I mean about Lyn. I understand that probably statistically Hector is better but when actually playing the game my Lyns seem to be just in general better. For starters I usually play in Hector's mode meaning that he has an incredibly late promotion giving him three missions to level up before endgame, not unreedemable just a small problem. Meanwhile I give Lyn the first heaven seal because Eliwood is usually garbage (on my most recent play through he had 10 strength at 20/10) so while I am not using Hector to him being only okay and an EXP waste at a capped out 20 Lyn is kicking butt and taking names. Also even with them both at 20/20 their strength isn't usually miles apart with my Hectors usually only coming 4-6 strength points ahead and Lyn being 7-8 skill and speed points ahead of him. Pretty much the only things she can't ORKO are generals and Wyvern Lords and the Mani Katti helps out with generals, or will likely crit and kill the enemy. The last thing to note is I just like the Swordmaster class in general, which Lyn obviously is designed off of. So, yeah will 20/20 Hector be a better powerhouse than Lyn, yes. However, Lyn is more helpful for a larger portion of the game even if he outclasses her a bit in endgame. Again, IMO.

Erm, the big problem with that is that personal experience counts for nothing in the grand scheme of things. Lyn's problem is that she's essentially a myrm in a rather lance heavy game. Also, myrms aren't that great in FE7.

Edited by Levant Caprice
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Erm, the big problem with that is that personal experience counts for nothing in the grand scheme of things. Lyn's problem is that she's essentially a myrm in a rather lance heavy game. Also, myrms aren't that great in FE7.

Almost nothing he mentioned is actually personal experience based:

-Hector has a late promotion in Hector's mode. Not only is this the mode he stated he plays, it's the mode usually discussed.

-Lyn doesn't necessarily always get the first Heaven Seal, but it's not a tough argument to make since Eliwood is an average unit at best and won't always be used.

-The stat differences he mentioned line up pretty well with averages, not at 20/20, but particularly later on when Lyn has been promoted for a while and gained levels and Hector has only just promoted. Hector basically being a General movement-wise after promotion helps nothing.

-The Mani Katti does indeed help kill enemy Generals, and I'd add that Killer Bows can help kill Wyvern Lords quite a bit.

People talk about how oh-so-awful it is for Lyn to be a Sword user in a Lance heavy game, yet I've never had issues with her defensively, and I'm guessing it's because FE7 enemies are just that bad, and the assortment of promoted enemies isn't actually so Lance-heavy at all. She's been an MVP in my ranked runs (I specifically noted in my EHM S rank log how her loss counter at the end was 0) and never let me down otherwise. She seems like a unit who's bad on paper but works better in practice, so long as she comes out of her own mode with a boost, because level 4 Lyn at Ch 15/16 is indeed awful.

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Almost nothing he mentioned is actually personal experience based:

-Hector has a late promotion in Hector's mode. Not only is this the mode he stated he plays, it's the mode usually discussed.

-Lyn doesn't necessarily always get the first Heaven Seal, but it's not a tough argument to make since Eliwood is an average unit at best and won't always be used.

-The stat differences he mentioned line up pretty well with averages, not at 20/20, but particularly later on when Lyn has been promoted for a while and gained levels and Hector has only just promoted. Hector basically being a General movement-wise after promotion helps nothing.

-The Mani Katti does indeed help kill enemy Generals, and I'd add that Killer Bows can help kill Wyvern Lords quite a bit.

People talk about how oh-so-awful it is for Lyn to be a Sword user in a Lance heavy game, yet I've never had issues with her defensively, and I'm guessing it's because FE7 enemies are just that bad, and the assortment of promoted enemies isn't actually so Lance-heavy at all. She's been an MVP in my ranked runs (I specifically noted in my EHM S rank log how her loss counter at the end was 0) and never let me down otherwise. She seems like a unit who's bad on paper but works better in practice, so long as she comes out of her own mode with a boost, because level 4 Lyn at Ch 15/16 is indeed awful.

I'd say part of that might also have to do with the fact that even in lategame, unpromoted enemies outnumber promoted enemies by a large margin. Also, the point about Wyvern Lords would add up... were it not for the fact that the amount of Wyvern Lords you actually see ingame is a number you can count on one hand (IIRC; I don't remember seeing more than 5 Wyvern Lords); the point about the Mani Katti and Generals was already countered. Either way, I don't really see Lyn as bad, but I'm not exactly sure that she adds up to being underrated.

Edited by Levant Caprice
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People talk about how oh-so-awful it is for Lyn to be a Sword user in a Lance heavy game, yet I've never had issues with her defensively, and I'm guessing it's because FE7 enemies are just that bad, and the assortment of promoted enemies isn't actually so Lance-heavy at all. She's been an MVP in my ranked runs (I specifically noted in my EHM S rank log how her loss counter at the end was 0) and never let me down otherwise. She seems like a unit who's bad on paper but works better in practice, so long as she comes out of her own mode with a boost, because level 4 Lyn at Ch 15/16 is indeed awful.

This sounds pretty close to personal experience talk, wouldn't you say?

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FE9 Elincia has no availability to speak of, and FE9 in general has a very low demand for staff users since the enemies do so little damage. Who exactly is she supposed to be better than? Everyone who joins before her is better, barring massive failures like Bastian maybe.

Lyn is awful. I can see an argument for finding her better than Eliwood, but there's no way she can keep up with Hector. The things Lyn is effective against with Mani Katti get OHKO'd by Wolf Beil, so what exactly is Lyn superior against offensively? Because defensively it's no contest.

Since when were staff users only good for healing? Elincia comes with A in staff use, so she can use Rescue right off the bat.

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Since when were staff users only good for healing? Elincia comes with A in staff use, so she can use Rescue right off the bat.

legitimately question, does this shave any turn on a LTC run of FE9?

Edited by Nobody
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legitimately question, does this shave any turn on a LTC run of FE9?

No, as it turns out you can 2 turn Chapter 26 and 4 turn Chapter 27 and 2 turn Endgame (am I getting the turns right?) without using Rescue at all. You need some pretty insane shove chains to pull it off. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9nYcxCLnEA

Regardless though, Elincia gets points for being able to contribute to these LTCs in a context where Rhys, Soren, Mist etc. don't get B in staves, or in which they aren't available. Elincia is the only unit who starts off with such a high staff level.

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People talk about how oh-so-awful it is for Lyn to be a Sword user in a Lance heavy game, yet I've never had issues with her defensively,

yeah i've never had problems with serra face tanking enemies either

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Mist needs to use Rescue once for the Chapter 27 4 turn. I have Elincia use the Hammerne in that chapter though, so it's worth noting that Elincia is also the only unit who can use the Hammerne without any training whatsoever.

Edited by Chiki
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I'd say part of that might also have to do with the fact that even in lategame, unpromoted enemies outnumber promoted enemies by a large margin. Also, the point about Wyvern Lords would add up... were it not for the fact that the amount of Wyvern Lords you actually see ingame is a number you can count on one hand (IIRC; I don't remember seeing more than 5 Wyvern Lords); the point about the Mani Katti and Generals was already countered. Either way, I don't really see Lyn as bad, but I'm not exactly sure that she adds up to being underrated.

Well, if Wyvern Lords are so uncommon, I guess the issue is practically irrelevant anyway.

Point about Mani Katti countered by what? Hector OHKOing with Wolf Beil? Iirc, that's really only true for Cavaliers, half of which wield swords, and he certainly doesn't OHKO forever, at which point Lyn is probably winning offensively because of doubling and criticals.

This sounds pretty close to personal experience talk, wouldn't you say?

People really need to stop using this whole "personal experience" point as a catch-all counter to just say "Your argument means nothing." "Personal experience means nothing" as a phrase exists for when people talk about specific RNG and try to use it as justification for a point, like one person's Dorcas capping Speed by 20/5 and using that result to say Dorcas is fast and awesome. This is not the kind of thing I was talking about. It's personal experience, yes, but it's in-game usage over multiple (20+, literally) runs of the game on various difficulties with various team set-ups, a couple of which were even under rank restraints. Theory-FE only gets you so far, at some point you actually do need to apply and see how things do or do not work, and that's all personal experience.

I'm not here trying to say, "Lyn is so amazing and you all just don't understand." If I were, I wouldn't have been so general with what I said. I'm saying I think she deserves a bit more credit than she gets, and I find that the people who constantly talk crap about her don't seem to give her much of a chance.

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Well, if Wyvern Lords are so uncommon, I guess the issue is practically irrelevant anyway.

Point about Mani Katti countered by what? Hector OHKOing with Wolf Beil? Iirc, that's really only true for Cavaliers, half of which wield swords, and he certainly doesn't OHKO forever, at which point Lyn is probably winning offensively because of doubling and criticals.

I certainly wouldn't say he'd OHKO, but imo, there really isn't any good reason to pit Lyn against a General unless the better anti-armor alternatives have already used their turns or were otherwise unavailable, or said general had an axe (which I remember as being rather rare); also, how many sword using cavs are there?? I mostly only remember sword cavs being seen around earlygame and early midgame.

Edited by Levant Caprice
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I certainly wouldn't say he'd OHKO, but imo, there really isn't any good reason to pit Lyn against a General unless the better anti-armor alternatives have already used their turns or were otherwise unavailable, or said general had an axe (which I remember as being rather rare); also, how many sword using cavs are there?? I mostly only remember sword cavs being seen around earlygame and early midgame.

Well, early game is the time when it's most relevant. That's when you'll need effective weaponry more, and Wolf Beil only has 30 uses.

I'm not saying Lyn's a great unit to use against Generals. Well, Lance Generals, as those might be the most dangerous enemies for her to face. Axe Generals are fine for her.

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Specifically, I meant the part where you said "I've never had issues with her defensively." I mean, 2 def base and 20% growth. What level do you have her coming out of Lyn mode?

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Specifically, I meant the part where you said "I've never had issues with her defensively." I mean, 2 def base and 20% growth. What level do you have her coming out of Lyn mode?

Around 9-10 on average, potentially higher if I'm using only her and Florina. I think my highest is 16, but that's a pretty rare situation. Her raw defense is comparatively bad, but enemies are so weak and inaccurate and her avoid is so good.
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FE9

Mia: A sizable chunk of people like to act like Mia is, somehow, incapable of killing anything while gushing over Laguz units and other sword masters. They're really willing to give her the short end of the stick and not even bother sizing her up.

Ilyana: A bit of an odd one as I haven't heard too many people actually call her BAD, but she seems to often be 'just the other mage' than anything else. Seems to be only rarely talked about and generally overlooked when she can be quite useful.

Brom/Gatire: They suck in LTC and, admittedly, aren't all that great compared to other units even outside of it; but I've seen quite a few people act like they're basically useless due to their low movement and AS when the truth is... that while they're slow they're not completely useless either. Great bait, some nice strength, and they do double on occasion. Not good but nowhere near as bad as it seems some people make them out to be.

FE10

Ilyana: Once again she's not great, but in the DB having even another ranged attacker can be very useful; especially if you're not an experienced FE player. She isn't the best but she also isn't useless either.

Laura: Maybe it's just my experience but I never see her come up which strikes me as odd seeing as she's basically the only staff user for the DB (unless I'm forgetting someone). Sure, she's not the BEST, but she's a valuable healer still!

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