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There is no need to be worried about 'pandering' or 'dumbing down'


BurningCandy
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Well, if so many of you don't like all the "pandering" and "anime/otaku stuff", show IS by not buying the game.

Personally I'll see how the features, characters, story etc. actually play out before making any judgements.

Honestly, I think don't anyone here is trying to judge the game before its out, but what we're talking about here is whether there's a need to be worried, as the topic title puts it. And I think I'm speaking for a lot of people here when I say that I'm only worried because I love this series and care about its future. I wouldn't be worried about it if I was planning on abandoning it anytime soon. (In other words: I'm still really excited about If, despite my misgivings about some of its elements.) Edited by Icy Toast
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To make matters worse, the features that appeal to many otaku include severe mental disorders, known by such terms as tsundere and yandere, to name two of the most notorious ones. In other words, characters that appeal to otaku tastes are often deliberately designed to think and behave in ways that are unfamiliar to emotionally mature human beings. This makes it incredibly difficult to write believable stories with characters specifically designed to please otaku, because their actions and words, while potentially amusing, do not usually reflect the kind of thoughts and feelings the reader/player might experience in a similar situation.

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone say that being a tsundere is a severe mental disorder, unless you're being tongue-in-cheek. While tsunderes in many animes might be exaggerated, it's not like most (at least that I've seen) are so hot and cold as to make you think they might have borderline personality disorder. I don't think the actual type itself is a sign of mental disorder, especially not the kind who starts off being mostly tsun but then grows into being mostly dere.

Traditionally Fire Emblem characters were defined in terms of their personal background, their motivations for joining your army, their relationships with other units in your army, and perhaps 1 or 2 little personality quirks to make them stand out among the large cast of characters. The fact that each and every character could be married to the avatar in Awakening, however, facilitated a shift towards defining characters in terms of what they can offer the self-insert/player as a potential love interest. Obviously, this shift affects both the characters themselves and the scenes they appear in, as it means that to a certain degree each character is now deliberately designed and presented to the player as a package of moe/fetish features.

As much as I liked Awakening's supports, I do think they could have done a much better job with the first two things you mentioned, as well as fleshing out more the world in general. But I'm not sure what you mean by "their relationships with other units in your army", at least since I assume you're saying Awakening didn't do a good job of defining relationships with other units.

I'm guessing when you say "moe/fetish features" that that is just another way of saying characters are too trope-y? I think that's a bit of a negative view of them, (although like I said before I agree they are in general lacking on personal background and motivations for joining your army). It depends on the specific character since some (like Owain or Miriel) can't really "switch their trope off" quickly. From a player standpoint, I'd say the supports more lean towards showing off the unit's personality (most of which are quirky) and how they interact with the character they're talking to. (I did see you said "to a certain degree"). It just so happens the personalities in this game draw more from tropes commonly seen in anime. But I think if you're saying they're mostly there as different kinds of personalities made for you to choose which you want you're self-insert to date, is short-changing the characters in Awakening.

That's why they gave us Katarina: a perfect moe heroine, a word the Japanese unironically use to refer to those female characters who exist primarily to serve as a potential love interest for a self-insert protagonist. Her subplot makes this painfully obvious: it stops at nothing to stress how Katarina is entirely dependent on us, the player/self-insert to solve her problems and take care of her. (This is presumably a really attractive trait to many otaku, because it applies to about 90% of all heroines in harem anime, visual novels and light novels.)

Just watch a random moe anime and you'll know what I mean. Or no, wait, just play Awakening. Only on rare occasions does the game's script manage to convince that the people talking are actual knights fighting a war. Instead, throughout most of the game's story the tone is that of bunch of kids on a school trip.

I think your post was a really good critique of Awakening and the general direction FE seems to be going in (even the points above that I replied to), but I thought the bolded is just off. While it's clearly true there's a tone shift compared to most supports in past FE games, saying the script "rarely" convinces you a war is going on is way too extreme. There are not that many supports, I'd estimate maybe 30% tops, that don't either focus on something to do with the war, make it clear the unit is some kind of active soldier or relate to a characters backstory or motivations.

I'm also not sure what your definition moe is, because I wouldn't equate the majority of the dialogue in Awakening to that of a generic, bland moe anime.

Edited by BlueL
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I see this very simple. Do I like the bath house or the face rubbing? No. Why? Because:

- Either it is a fan service, then it is not adding to the quality of the game and plane pandering to weebs.

- It is honestly meant as a relationship feature, then it is still shitty. I can think of better features filling that spot while I write this comment which are far more fitting, immersive and realistic. (western vs eastern chess mini game anyone?)

- Or both. Then it's just shit in different colours.

Conclusion: The onsen and petting are shit.

Did I miss anything?

Edited by Lee
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I'm going to give things a try, because, why not?

With that said, it's just not Fire Emblem. It's a new feature in a new game in the Fire Emblem series, but it was never a part of the series before. This is why adding it now seems so way off track. This isn't a fear of change - the new mechanics to weapons and the triangle are legitimately exciting and I can't wait to dive in to them. Change is inevitable, and it can be great. But, it is not always so.

I am just frustrated with the additions, simply because there are other games to play with these features. If Fire Emblem wasn't your thing in the past, alright, that's cool. If it's your thing now simply because of the pandering features, well, I just don't know what to say because it certainly wouldn't be positive. It's almost as if a genre shift is happening, and as a FE fan that's both frustrating and scary.

I've already come to peace that there probably will never be a game without a MU character ever again, and that makes me sad because the games will never be written on their own merits.

Edited by Wellgarth
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@BlueL:

I'll be the first to admit that I exaggerated a bit here and there, as my aim was to make clear why certain elements in If could cause people to be concerned about the quality of the game and the future of the series, rather than to provide a fair critique of Awakening.



I don't think I've ever heard of anyone say that being a tsundere is a severe mental disorder, unless you're being tongue-in-cheek. While tsunderes in many animes might be exaggerated, it's not like most (at least that I've seen) are so hot and cold as to make you think they might be bipolar. I don't think the actual type itself is a sign of mental disorder, especially not the kind who starts off being mostly tsun but then grows into being mostly dere.

I wasn't entirely serious about the mental disorder thing, although it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of anime characters could be diagnosed with one. The point I was trying to make, though, was that many of the archetypes popular among otaku seem to involve a distinct lack of emotional maturity that makes these characters think and behave very different from real people of their age.


While it's clearly true there's a tone shift compared to most supports in past FE games, saying the script "rarely" convinces you a war is going on is way too extreme. There are not that many supports, I'd estimate maybe 30% tops, that don't either focus on something to do with the war, make it clear the unit is some kind of active soldier or relate to a characters backstory or motivations.

I wasn't talking about the supports specifically here, just the script in general. What I was trying to say wasn't simply that the characters talk too much about pies and too little about the war, but rather that when they do talk about the war, what is being said about the topic and the register in which it is being said just lack the kind of weight that would make the situation believable to me. Of course the game doesn't literally fail to inform me that there's a war going on, it's just that the way the characters on screen speak and behave often seems to clash with that information.

I apologize if that point was unclear. English isn't my native tongue.

I'm also not sure what your definition moe is, because I wouldn't equate the majority of the dialogue in Awakening to that of a generic, bland moe anime.

If you played the localized version of the game that might explain why we experienced the dialogues differently. Playing the Japanese version, I constantly found myself reminded of generic, bland anime dialogues, but from what I've seen the localization spiced up the dialogues quite a bit.

I somewhat regret using the word 'moe' now, because it's not exactly easy to define. You'll have to give me some time to think about that one.

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@BlueL:

I'll be the first to admit that I exaggerated a bit here and there, as my aim was to make clear why certain elements in If could cause people to be concerned about the quality of the game and the future of the series, rather than to provide a fair critique of Awakening.

Well I thought your point was rather clearly stated. It gave me a better understanding of why people maybe concerned about the quality of FE if and the future of the series. Unlike the people who say the supports suck because they're all about "PIES PIES PIES" as their sole argument.

I wasn't entirely serious about the mental disorder thing, although it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of anime characters could be diagnosed with one. The point I was trying to make, though, was that many of the archetypes popular among otaku seem to involve a distinct lack of emotional maturity that makes these characters think and behave very different from real people of their age.
I thought you were being somewhat tongue-in-cheek. And yea I get where you're coming from about the lack of emotional maturity of certain archetypes. Although I'm not familiar at all with otaku interests.
I wasn't talking about the supports specifically here, just the script in general. What I was trying to say wasn't simply that the characters talk too much about pies and too little about the war, but rather that when they do talk about the war, what is being said about the topic and the register in which it is being said just lack the kind of weight that would make the situation believable to me. Of course the game doesn't literally fail to inform me that there's a war going on, it's just that the way the characters on screen speak and behave often seems to clash with that information.

I don't disagree with this at all. Like I said, there is a clear difference in tone from past FE games. I actually like the inclusion of more light-hearted or comical supports, although I understand that they tipped the scales too far away from the seriousness in past FE games. There are not many conversations with the tone of say, CormagxNatasha.

I apologize if that point was unclear. English isn't my native tongue.

I somewhat got what you were saying, I just think it was hard to tell what you were being literal on vs using exaggeration. For what it's worth, your English is just fine to me. I wouldn't have guessed it wasn't your first language from how you typed.

If you played the localized version of the game that might explain why we experienced the dialogues differently. Playing the Japanese version, I constantly found myself reminded of generic, bland anime dialogues, but from what I've seen the localization spiced up the dialogues quite a bit.

Yea, I did play the localized version, so that might be it too. I know a lot of people disliked Olivia's JP voice (I'm not against high pitched cute voices, but I get that they annoy some people. And it's weird if it's on girls who are too old or look to old.)

I somewhat regret using the word 'moe' now, because it's not exactly easy to define. You'll have to give me some time to think about that one.

I think moe might be one of the hardest anime slang terms to define. Outside of being cute and young, it is a very broad term.

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On the topic of Kamui/player-pandering phenomenon, how would you feel if, along with the characters that are... inherently (for the lack of a better word) easier to 'worship' Kamui, there were also others who are either:

1. Harder to get along with (Rinka was mentioned to be rather aloof and does not interact with others more than necessary)

2. Distrust or even look down on Kamui, at least initially (I imagine the younger brothers would be this)

3. Actively pandering to Kamui, but not because they care about him/her or romance in general, but due to ulterior motives (like Charlotte)

I'm not saying that it would remove the problem with characters being created around the intention of pleasing the player/protagonist like some have pointed out, but at least it would create more diversities with how the characters interact with Kamui, and also improve the situations that we've learned so far. In FE13, most people treat Robin the same way, ranging from the protagonist, his/her marriage partner, to old enemies; which got boring really fast. Frederick's "suspicion" of Robin also immediately became irrelevant after a few chapters.

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If you shouldn't discuss something in a game before playing it for yourself, then most of us should probably vacate this board until next year. I mean, I'm totally with you when it comes to reserving judgement, but I also don't believe everyone should have to qualify their statements with "...but, you know, I could be wrong. We'll see." It should go without saying. I totally partake in pointless qualifying all the time anyway, but I'm also just disgustingly neutral in most things. So, hey. Maybe that's why I can respect people with more pronounced opinions on any side of the spectrum.

I certainly have beef with people who bang their drums too loudly, but I also take issue when people take the "fall in line or shut up" approach, as it's equally antagonizing, and especially out of place when most discussion has been relatively civil (at least on these boards). People are allowed their grievances, and it's good to have an avenue with which to discuss them. This is a topic for that, after all.

Much as I'd fucking love to vacate the boards until if is released in America (because spoilers), I'm a mod, and I'd be a pretty bad one if I ignored the boards.

I know what I like, and what I don't like. I also know that IS isn't beholden to me and my tastes, so complaining about things that don't go my way isn't going to solve the underlying issue.

Thus, I can understand the underlying sentiment behind "if you have nothing nice to say, go away". I also understand that some people are a lot more orally expressive than others. I'm action-oriented ("get it done or get out of my way"), so seeing a lot of words that do a whole lot of nothing (in terms of solving the problem) goes against how I address problems. Lastly, I only speak for myself.

The best way to tell IS that these features are not welcome to to buy an alternative game without those features. The problem is there is none; Fire Emblem is really the last of its kind, all similar games have died out. Front Mission is dead, Valkyria Chronicles is missing in action, Shining Force has been replaced by the other titles in the series, Super Robot Wars is never getting out of Japan. Langrisser is getting a new game and I will keep up with it to see if it is any good.

Go indie. The graphics won't be as polished, and the sound effects/voice acting won't be amazing, BUT if your concern is actual gameplay, see if there's something similar out there. Alternately, give Codename S.T.E.A.M. a whirl.

Honestly, I think don't anyone here is trying to judge the game before its out, but what we're talking about here is whether there's a need to be worried, as the topic title puts it. And I think I'm speaking for a lot of people here when I say that I'm only worried because I love this series and care about its future. I wouldn't be worried about it if I was planning on abandoning it anytime soon. (In other words: I'm still really excited about If, despite my misgivings about some of its elements.)

What I think is missing is "I care about the future of this series, based on what I think the series should be". Because it looks like FE's got a better budget this time, and if the pre-orders are any indication, it's not on its way out. I think FE will survive at least this iteration. Will it be the same game you know and love the next time? Who knows.

I'm guessing when you say "moe/fetish features" that that is just another way of saying characters are too trope-y? I think that's a bit of a negative view of them, (although like I said before I agree they are in general lacking on personal background and motivations for joining your army). It depends on the specific character since some (like Owain or Miriel) can't really "switch their trope off" quickly. From a player standpoint, I'd say the supports more lean towards showing off the unit's personality (most of which are quirky) and how they interact with the character they're talking to. (I did see you said "to a certain degree"). It just so happens the personalities in this game draw more from tropes commonly seen in anime. But I think if you're saying they're mostly there as different kinds of personalities made for you to choose which you want you're self-insert to date, is short-changing the characters in Awakening.

To his credit, Owain can drop his flowery speech when he needs to.

On the topic of Kamui/player-pandering phenomenon, how would you feel if, along with the characters that are... inherently (for the lack of a better word) easier to 'worship' Kamui, there were also others who are either:

1. Harder to get along with (Rinka was mentioned to be rather aloof and does not interact with others more than necessary)

2. Distrust or even look down on Kamui, at least initially (I imagine the younger brothers would be this)

3. Actively pandering to Kamui, but not because they care about him/her or romance in general, but due to ulterior motives (like Charlotte)

I'm not saying that it would remove the problem with characters being created around the intention of pleasing the player/protagonist like some have pointed out, but at least it would create more diversities with how the characters interact with Kamui, and also improve the situations that we've learned so far. In FE13, most people treat Robin the same way, ranging from the protagonist, his/her marriage partner, to old enemies; which got boring really fast. Frederick's "suspicion" of Robin also immediately became irrelevant after a few chapters.

Frederick - probably because Frederick figured that Robin was a lot less shady after helping them fight several different battles.

The characters who have a different reaction than "oh hey you're a cool leader" are a refreshing change. It allows for some character growth. I hope there's more support convos along the lines of Gaius x Maribelle (where they drop their "defining feature" and talk like adults). Hell, I'd like more believable characters - RL people aren't walking tropes!

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If certain posters here have an issue with other posters criticizing If, then they could go post somewhere else (not really). Or just ignore those posts.

Then again, we could accept nobody here is obligated to support anything If has so far. And actually discuss the game, since criticism is part of discussion no matter how offensive.

Edited by Alazen
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If certain posters here have an issue with other posters criticizing If, then they could go post somewhere else (not really). Or just ignore those posts.

Then again, we could accept nobody here is obligated to support anything If has so far. And actually discuss the game, since criticism is part of discussion no matter how offensive.

I think I was less criticsising If than ranting about how people are randomly hating on eachother due to the content of If.

But I agree with you.

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Is Fire Emblem the series I fell for in 2003, in a lot ways yes, in others no. FE is one of the only healthy SRPGs in what seems to be dying Genre. The face rubbing rubs me the wrong way, but Fire Emblem IF is returning to some of it's roots while trying to pull in new people. So while the Splitting of the game and face rubbing gives me reason to pause, I am waiting with bated breath for IF because it's offering a lot that I loved in it's older offerings. So I am excited for this new Fire Emblem.

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