There is no need to be worried about 'pandering' or 'dumbing down'

[DarthMikey]

I didn't say anything about me, I'm talking about Nintendo. Obviously I could be wrong, the hot springs just strike me as the sort of thing they'd get rid of to maintain their family-friendly image. Though I guess it isn't to the same extent as, say, that Tharja picture in Hot Springs Scramble.

[NekoKnight]

Did i ever say it was a good idea? I said it was not necessarily pandering.

Can you wash your own back easily? Culture has changed yes, but i see no reason why it has to match my own. In the time FE if is set in i am pretty sure personal space wasn't quite the same as it was now.(and i think the back washing is cultural as well)

You're acting like a feature where you feel up cute anime characters is just a consequence of bonding with your characters, instead of being a very intentional design decision to appeal to those types of people. ie 'pandering'.

I haven't seen back washing myself but if someone else has some cultural insight to the customs of feudal Japan, feel free to share it. To me, the back washing comment sounded like yaoi pandering with plausible deniability.

Edited June 5, 2015 by NekoKnight

[goodperson707]

^ how do you know otherwise, the fact that it is very much like Pokemon amie is suspicious to me that it is trying to imitate other touch screen features. You need to chose to and be aware that you are pandering to be pandering. And I guess when someone says something about back washing they mean backwashing i think they mean back washing nothing more and because back washing isn't easy (why else would we make back scrubbers) and personal space was different then i see no problem with it. (But i do remember some one saying it is cultural)

[ChibiToastExplosion]

My only wish right now is that if they have to do streepass battles, make them accessible even on classic mode.

In Awakening, I avoided 95% of streetpass battles because the other team was so grinded out that losing a unit was inevitable - units could individually become awesome. It would have been awesome to test my mettle against those teams, but classic classic classic. This isn't a gaiden chapter or overworld monster clearing, this is a bonus battle and should be fun instead of prohibitive.

I think we just plain need to see more about a lot of these features.

[Ryo]

You're acting like a feature where you feel up cute anime characters is just a consequence of bonding with your characters, instead of being a very intentional design decision to appeal to those types of people. ie 'pandering'.

I haven't seen back washing myself but if someone else has some cultural insight to the customs of feudal Japan, feel free to share it. To me, the back washing comment sounded like yaoi pandering with plausible deniability.

Washing each other's back is a common thing in Japan when people are sharing bath, or at least that's how it's portrayed in media. It has no romantic indication whatsoever, and that's something family members do to one another as well. When you're sharing a bath with a respectable individual or a guest, you can also offer to wash their back for the sake of being polite.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Ryo

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm not too worried about dumbing down; it actually sounds like they're shaking things up a lot and that's something the series kinda needs.

Pandering... mm. Mostly it won't bother me (even though I'm not particularly interested in it myself), and there is certainly far worse optional content in some games (compared to killing prostitutes in GTA, rubbing someone's face is so benign as to be laughable). I'm a bit apprehensive that it could hurt the reception though, because due to cultural differences I think Japanese games can be really hurt by things like this.

[NekoKnight]

Washing each other's back is a common thing in Japan when people are sharing bath, or at least that's how it's portrayed in media. It has no romantic indication whatsoever, and that's something family members do to one another as well. When you're sharing a bath with a respectable individual or a guest, you can also offer to wash their back for the sake of being polite.

This might lead to a skewed perspective. I'd take what you see in tv shows (especially anime) with a grain of salt.

I've been living in Japan for about 3 years so I'll give you my take on things. Parents will bathe their young children (and sometimes with them) but that's more to do with them not doing it properly on their own than a bonding exercise. In public baths (sento or onsen), people will chat frequently but they don't touch each other. To be sure, Japanese people can be a lot more physical than westerners (especially JHS age boys) but I haven't seen this back washing. This is from a male perspective so women may have their own behavioral standards.

[Ryo]

This might lead to a skewed perspective. I'd take what you see in tv shows (especially anime) with a grain of salt.

I've been living in Japan for about 3 years so I'll give you my take on things. Parents will bathe their young children (and sometimes with them) but that's more to do with them not doing it properly on their own than a bonding exercise. In public baths (sento or onsen), people will chat frequently but they don't touch each other. To be sure, Japanese people can be a lot more physical than westerners (especially JHS age boys) but I haven't seen this back washing. This is from a male perspective so women may have their own behavioral standards.

But the thing is, FE is a fictional product and heavily anime-influenced, and that is how back-washing is usually depicted in Japanese media, regardless of whether it's really the case in real life. You can say it's a stereotype. But even in media, most of the time it doesn't have any special indication beyond helping other people clean themselves (even between people of the same gender), unless you're watching hentai or something.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Ryo

[NekoKnight]

I don't think I can really get behind the "they do it in anime so it's legit" argument.

I weigh two possibilities:

A. The back washing is to give a legitimate (by anime standards) depiction of Japanese customs.

B. The back washing to get...certain players excited over the idea of two men getting physical in the bath.

I find B more likely than A but we may have to disagree on that one.

Edited June 5, 2015 by NekoKnight

[goodperson707]

In front of two other guys no less.

[Ryo]

Some people will get excited sure, but that is more of their problem because we cannot tell if IS was just influenced by anime stereotypes or making people imagine things was their intention from the beginning.

Moreover, are you sure you have fully observed what the Japanese do in their bathing customs? Bovinian confirmed some posts earlier that this is a thing in Japan and perfectly normal, though we don't know what his perspective is. I hope he can shed a light to this. I'd also imagine that most people wouldn't let others scrub their backs in public when they can handle themselves anyway, that's why people don't see it often. But do they do so at home?

In front of two other guys no less.

Pretty sure that's a different scene.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Ryo

[goodperson707]

^ i don't have the video right now if i was wrong I'm apologize . But i could have sworn there was no scene change and he was on the same position when tusbuki said that. Unless i am missing something here.

Edit now isee whoops.

Edited June 5, 2015 by goodperson707

[Loki Laufeyson]

I didn't say anything about me, I'm talking about Nintendo. Obviously I could be wrong, the hot springs just strike me as the sort of thing they'd get rid of to maintain their family-friendly image. Though I guess it isn't to the same extent as, say, that Tharja picture in Hot Springs Scramble.

Implying there is something family unfriendly about people with swimsuits on in what resembles a spa (for westerners) hanging out and talking about junk. I honestly think people naysaying this is really overreacting and making really dodgy generalizations. I distinctly remember Tales of Symphonia have a fun scene with characters hanging out in hot springs, in swimsuits, asking to wash another friend's back, it being on a Nintendo console and perfectly harmless.

[Baldrick]

My two cents; going to a football match is a common Western tradition, but you don't see it happening on Game of Thrones because it clashes with the setting. It's too early to tell the context of the bath scenes and whether it clashes with the setting of If, but it's not unheard of for that kind of thing to be used as fanservice.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Pretty sure it wouldnt clash too hard with Hoshido. Nohr, i cannot say, but if it is based off of early medieval Europe, bathhouses were a thing. Mostly left over from the Roman Empire in Britain.

[Baldrick]

If the Nohr baths are based off of Roman baths, there had better be male full frontal nudity, if not, it's just pandering!

[eclipse]

I'm writing this mainly cos of a fiasco on Gamefaqs.

Let's get one thing straight - we are NOT GameFAQs. Some people have accounts on both sites, while others have an account on only one of the sites. It's usually a much better idea to address your target audience, instead of some tangent, BUT I can understand why you'd take said tangent. My advice: Find somewhere where YOU are comfortable, and stay there. You don't owe it to anyone to "show the truth", nor do you owe any forum on the Internet any loyalty (especially if you're not enjoying yourself there; life's too short for that).

Here's something that's come to mind for me over the past few days.

My Castle is essentially the first time we're being given something in Fire Emblem to do outside of it's linear "chapter to chapter" style. I honestly wonder if a lot of older fans are scared for some reason that focusing on one will dumb down the other instead of the two coexisting side by side.

Honestly, after thinking about it, I think My Castle is an evolution of the fact that FE has continued to put more emphasis on the bonds between characters. FE4 started it with the marriage system, FE6 then introduced support conversations, and almost every game after continued to expand the support system. In a way, My Castle seems to further that Intelligent Systems has been doing for many games now.

Of course, even I'm not on board on every single thing like the Amie scenes, but I chalk that up to culture differences. But overall, this was made me all the more optimistic for the final version of the game.

I'm not worried at all! I'm interested to see what direction FE goes, and if it goes too far in the wrong direction (in my opinion), I'll wish it well and move elsewhere. Change happens.

I really don't see much pandering elements in this game,the face rubbing thing seems to me like an decent concept that got twisted with the idea of adding touch screen interaction. (The comments are another thing, but they work with what they have)And i don't see what is wrong with the hot-springs as it is cultural and not even limited to japan at all. And yeah the boy in the girl bath is cliche but what would you think would happen if a male kaimui walked into the female bath and i see no reason why they have to make it inaccessible.

I think it's a little silly to get worked up over the "wrong gender in the bath" trope NOW. It was in Awakening, and it was pretty poorly executed.

I didn't say anything about me, I'm talking about Nintendo. Obviously I could be wrong, the hot springs just strike me as the sort of thing they'd get rid of to maintain their family-friendly image. Though I guess it isn't to the same extent as, say, that Tharja picture in Hot Springs Scramble.

Eh. I don't see what the huge deal about the hot springs are. Pretty sure the bits that matter will be covered, and not a la Tecmo!

You're acting like a feature where you feel up cute anime characters is just a consequence of bonding with your characters, instead of being a very intentional design decision to appeal to those types of people. ie 'pandering'.

I haven't seen back washing myself but if someone else has some cultural insight to the customs of feudal Japan, feel free to share it. To me, the back washing comment sounded like yaoi pandering with plausible deniability.

I have no idea why the face rubbing thing was included, IMO, nor do I care. If someone's going to play FE just for that (and on Normal Phoenix, no less), so be it - I hope they like the game.

I'm not too worried about dumbing down; it actually sounds like they're shaking things up a lot and that's something the series kinda needs.

Pandering... mm. Mostly it won't bother me (even though I'm not particularly interested in it myself), and there is certainly far worse optional content in some games (compared to killing prostitutes in GTA, rubbing someone's face is so benign as to be laughable). I'm a bit apprehensive that it could hurt the reception though, because due to cultural differences I think Japanese games can be really hurt by things like this.

Thanks for the reminder that "pandering" is a worldwide issue!

If the Nohr baths are based off of Roman baths, there had better be male full frontal nudity, if not, it's just pandering!

Remember that issue with Awakening and feet? Well, Nohr has that issue, too. . .but it's "everything below the waist".

---

I think the issue is "change" - FE's trying a lot of new things (to be fair, when hasn't it?), and for those who expect X, Y, and Z, it can be intimidating. Change will happen, and it's up to each individual person to embrace it or to go elsewhere.

[BurningCandy]

Let's get one thing straight - we are NOT GameFAQs. Some people have accounts on both sites, while others have an account on only one of the sites. It's usually a much better idea to address your target audience, instead of some tangent, BUT I can understand why you'd take said tangent. My advice: Find somewhere where YOU are comfortable, and stay there. You don't owe it to anyone to "show the truth", nor do you owe any forum on the Internet any loyalty (especially if you're not enjoying yourself there; life's too short for that).I'm not worried at all! I'm interested to see what direction FE goes, and if it goes too far in the wrong direction (in my opinion), I'll wish it well and move elsewhere. Change happens.I think it's a little silly to get worked up over the "wrong gender in the bath" trope NOW. It was in Awakening, and it was pretty poorly executed.Eh. I don't see what the huge deal about the hot springs are. Pretty sure the bits that matter will be covered, and not a la Tecmo!I have no idea why the face rubbing thing was included, IMO, nor do I care. If someone's going to play FE just for that (and on Normal Phoenix, no less), so be it - I hope they like the game.Thanks for the reminder that "pandering" is a worldwide issue!Remember that issue with Awakening and feet? Well, Nohr has that issue, too. . .but it's "everything below the waist". ---I think the issue is "change" - FE's trying a lot of new things (to be fair, when hasn't it?), and for those who expect X, Y, and Z, it can be intimidating. Change will happen, and it's up to each individual person to embrace it or to go elsewhere.

Ah, well I did post this on gamefaqs too.

I know this isn't gamefaqs, but topics like the ones on there do pop up sometimes.

I was kind of annoyed that everyone was hating on whoever didn't like what they liked.

Im pretty sure its happened on sf so I posted it here too.

[goodperson707]

I think it's a little silly to get worked up over the "wrong gender in the bath" trope NOW. It was in Awakening, and it was pretty poorly executed.

How was i getting worked up about it? I was just responding to someone else's post who mentioned it as pandering and i said that yeah it was a bit cliche but that cliches become cliche/tropes for a reason. And that i saw no good reason for it not to happen. And i am aware that it was in awakening but everyone can keep their own opinion on its execution, K? The fact that i found most of the supports that had it forgettable in awakening is immaterial as my opinion should not affect anyone else's opinion on the supports.

[eclipse]

Ah, well I did post this on gamefaqs too.

I know this isn't gamefaqs, but topics like the ones on there do pop up sometimes.

I was kind of annoyed that everyone was hating on whoever didn't like what they liked.

Im pretty sure its happened on sf so I posted it here too.

Then respond to the relevant topic(s) - and do make sure to follow SF rules when doing so.

How was i getting worked up about it? I was just responding to someone else's post who mentioned it as pandering and i said that yeah it was a bit cliche but that cliches become cliche/tropes for a reason. And that i saw no good reason for it not to happen. And i am aware that it was in awakening but everyone can keep their own opinion on its execution, K? The fact that i found most of the supports that had it forgettable in awakening is immaterial as my opinion should not affect anyone else's opinion on the supports.

- ask how you're getting worked up

- post something like this

The bath thing was previously done in Awakening - that can be proven via supports. The "poorly executed" part is my opinion of how it was handled in Awakening. What I don't understand is why the trope itself wasn't an issue when it was first introduced back then. This time, there's graphics, but I don't think it's drastic enough to bring up (because if I did, I'd have to rag on several other games that had such a scene, and IMO that's not productive).

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i do have to wonder at what point the japanese get tired of anime cliches.

[goodperson707]

Then respond to the relevant topic(s) - and do make sure to follow SF rules when doing so.- ask how you're getting worked up- post something like thisThe bath thing was previously done in Awakening - that can be proven via supports. The "poorly executed" part is my opinion of how it was handled in Awakening. What I don't understand is why the trope itself wasn't an issue when it was first introduced back then. This time, there's graphics, but I don't think it's drastic enough to bring up (because if I did, I'd have to rag on several other games that had such a scene, and IMO that's not productive).

i didn't think it was an issue though i just agreed with another poster that it was a cliché, but that cliches happen for a reason. I have already stated i dislike the overuse of the word cliche in other topics. Really nearly everything under the sun is a cliche anyway. And i just said i knew it was done in awakening. Edited June 5, 2015 by goodperson707

[Icy Toast]

I feel like this topic distorts the issue somewhat by suggesting that 'dumbing down strategic gameplay' and 'otaku pandering' are somehow connected. I'm not worried at all about the game being dumbed down in terms of gameplay, but some of the elements that pander to otaku tastes do bother me quite a bit. And that's because the real conflict isn't 'pandering VS gameplay', it's 'pandering VS building a convincing world, a decent story and interesting characters'.

Now, just let me rant for a bit here to make clear what I mean by that.

While I'm sure a lot of people would blame Awakening for starting the pandering trend, I'm inclined to say it actually started with New Mystery and the addition of our Mary Sue, excuse me, My Unit. Despite an utter lack of personality, MU is beloved and admired by most of the cast, just like your average harem anime protagonist. However, an obvious problem was presented by the fact that, unlike your average (harem) anime, many of the characters in (New) Mystery already had canon love interests other than MU. That's why they gave us Katarina: a perfect moe heroine, a word the Japanese unironically use to refer to those female characters who exist primarily to serve as a potential love interest for a self-insert protagonist. Her subplot makes this painfully obvious: it stops at nothing to stress how Katarina is entirely dependent on us, the player/self-insert to solve her problems and take care of her. (This is presumably a really attractive trait to many otaku, because it applies to about 90% of all heroines in harem anime, visual novels and light novels.)

The reason it wasn't all that bad in New Mystery was the fact that it was a remake and most of the world, plot and cast was already there. Awakening, however, made things substantially worse. It gave the the entire cast some of that Katarina flavour by making every single character a potential marriage partner for the Avatar. I know that the marriage system was a very popular feature of Awakening, so let me explain why I think of this as 'making things worse'.

Traditionally Fire Emblem characters were defined in terms of their personal background, their motivations for joining your army, their relationships with other units in your army, and perhaps 1 or 2 little personality quirks to make them stand out among the large cast of characters. The fact that each and every character could be married to the avatar in Awakening, however, facilitated a shift towards defining characters in terms of what they can offer the self-insert/player as a potential love interest. Obviously, this shift affects both the characters themselves and the scenes they appear in, as it means that to a certain degree each character is now deliberately designed and presented to the player as a package of moe/fetish features.

To make matters worse, the features that appeal to many otaku include severe mental disorders, known by such terms as tsundere and yandere, to name two of the most notorious ones. In other words, characters that appeal to otaku tastes are often deliberately designed to think and behave in ways that are unfamiliar to emotionally mature human beings. This makes it incredibly difficult to write believable stories with characters specifically designed to please otaku, because their actions and words, while potentially amusing, do not usually reflect the kind of thoughts and feelings the reader/player might experience in a similar situation. Just watch a random moe anime and you'll know what I mean. Or no, wait, just play Awakening. Only on rare occasions does the game's script manage to convince that the people talking are actual knights fighting a war. Instead, throughout most of the game's story the tone is that of bunch of kids on a school trip.

As we all know, this trend also affected the visual aspects of character design, with Awakening taking unrealistic armor designs to a whole new level in an attempt to make its characters even more appealing as love interests for the self-insert/player. Sure, Fire Emblem has always had unrealistic armor, but it has never been as in-your-face and (for me personally at least) immersion-breaking as it was in Awakening. And to add insult to injury, beach and onsen episodes were shoehorned into the game's universe through the glorified plothole known as the Outrealm gate, thus breaking down any shreds of believability that remained. All in the interest of marketing to the player the moe objects that the characters had become.

So what is the point I'm trying to make here? "Fire Emblem Amie" and the hot springs may just be an optional 'fun little add on' as you (the OP) say, but they are symptoms of a much larger trend that has far-reaching implications for the the game's universe, characters, story, and writing. And those things are not optional add-ons. You have every right to like the new features, but it really shouldn't surprise you that those of us who aren't into the whole Waifu Emblem trend are worried about how it will affect the rest of the game.

Some people will get excited sure, but that is more of their problem because we cannot tell if IS was just influenced by anime stereotypes or making people imagine things was their intention from the beginning.

You need to chose to and be aware that you are pandering to be pandering.

There's no doubt in my mind that the whole otaku-pandering was a conscious marketing decision. From the 4Gamer interview in April:

- "In previous games we focused on creating a challenging SRPG, but since Awakening our priority has shifted to 'broadening the scope' of the series."

- "If you're playing FE for the first time, we want you to think of this game as an anime you can be a part of, without having to worry too much about the SRPG elements."

[IceBrand]

i do have to wonder at what point the japanese get tired of anime cliches.

Have you noticed all the generic high school and ecchi anime coming out lately? As long as it makes money it will never leave.

[Aekenon]

I'm all for trying new things -- I always welcome drastic new additions to classic formulas -- but I can't help but cringe when things are so transparently being shoehorned in to accommodate market trends. This kind of stuff is "hot" in Japan right now (at least with the people who spend hella money), and it's unfortunate to see Fire Emblem compromising to target those "money whale" demographics, because I think this series is better than that. ADD MORE HOT SPRINGS, and ADD MORE FACE-RUBBING feels like a desperate lack of faith in their own product, and the kicker is that it's probably totally unnecessary, because I think this game is going to be rad. Corporate needs their numbers though, and I guess if this is what it takes to get another Fire Emblem made... so be it, I suppose. Call me a hater if you will, but I think I have the right to be slightly disappointed by the direction.

To be clear, I'm actually pretty excited about the My Castle system, because it looks super fun to play with. I'm not worried about how this game will play, but I am concerned for its characters, the quality of their development, and consequently, the believability of the world at large. Time will tell whether FE Amie's inclusion actually ends up detracting from the support conversations (it's not a given, for sure), but it certainly leaves a negative impression that there's a system in place to treat its characters as objects rather than... well, living breathing people.

I agree with Icy Toast's take on things, and he provided a better-written explanation of his view than I could hope to.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Aekenon