Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?

[goodperson707]

^^ yeah i would also say that isn't a bad thing but I would like to have confirmation that the characters are actually LGB, it does not need to be by the characters, just unambiguous paired endings, or at least confirmation by the creators.

Edited June 6, 2015 by goodperson707

[Zerosabers]

You should really change the poll so that the options are yes, no, and wouldn't mind. The way it is set up now is kind of screwing with the results I think.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I personally would like to see more inclusion and that I've said it several times, but I'm merely trying to explain why a lot of (again, many of them actual LGBT people) have reservations about IS handing LGBT characters and it's not entirely unfounded fears there. I think most of us would be happy to see IS implement them well. But between a lot of already stated reasons it's just as important to consider people's valid concerns.

Found the blog post on Kyza, anyway. http://amielleon.dreamwidth.org/90765.html

I do think in order to have good representation there should be a number (does not have to be majority) of characters who exhibit a wide range of personalities who also happen to be gay. With more representation one gay character doesn't have to act as a spokesperson in representation for all the other gay people (a problem common to women in action films). This doesn't mean I can't respect some valid concerns regarding the social climate in Japan, IS's previous track record, etc

Kyza is trans? Goddamn I need to get a Radiant Dawn disk.

Let's include Christians as the main characters while we're at it. And make Muslims the bad guys. That's how it is in real life according to the US, right? (and for anyone who can't hear tone, I'm being sarcastic - I wouldn't support this kind of game, ever)

It's a video game - if I want a representation of real life, I'll go outside.

We actually have a movie about that, it's called American Sniper.

[Thor Odinson]

You should really change the poll so that the options are yes, no, and wouldn't mind. The way it is set up now is kind of screwing with the results I think.

Kyza is trans? Goddamn I need to get a Radiant Dawn disk.

I didn't pay attention to Kyza's character the one time I played RD much, but the blog post was written by someone who regularly translates Japanese FE text and compare them to localizations, so I will take their word for it until someone who knows Japanese comes in and tells me they're wrong.

[Yunanuy]

Perhaps we should change the poll to say, "assuming the character would be well written, would you support a LGBT character?" Because right now every is just bickering about how they'll be written and I don't feel like that was what the poll was trying to go for (OP correct me if I'm wrong). I mean, it's clear that no one wants to have a poorly written character ever, so why does this have to be the topic where, let's face it, everyone is just worried about bad characters, it's just manifesting as worrying about a bad homosexual/bisexual/pansexual character.

Changing the question would still have people discuss writing, so it's fine the way it is. The way it's worded lets people answer yes or no and be done with it. What people are doing is just voicing their opinions on why they answered yes or no and what the circumstances would have to be for them to support it or not.

^^ yeah i would also say that isn't a bad thing but I would like to have confirmation that the characters are actually LGB, it does not need to be by the characters, just unambiguous paired endings, or at least confirmation by the creators.

Sorry, I tend to think everyone just understands what I mean and sometimes end up being a bit ambiguous when I write. What I meant was that not having their sexuality pushed in your face is what I believe is the best scenario, but of course in any possible paired 'endings', they would happen to voice their interest.

And yeah, the black and white options for the poll is kinda forced...

Edited June 6, 2015 by Val'air

[Sylphid]

I'm one of those people worried about getting a gay/lesbian/bi character who is wholly defined by their sexual orientation. Also, the portrayal of (especially) gays in Japanese media is generally very unfair. I don't want to see the millionth Jann, even if I liked the man for what little else was written about him.

I would rather have no LGBT than badly written, gimmicky LGBT. Sadly I don't trust IS enough to be able to handle such character well after Awakening and think hoping this done well in if is too much too early.

I'm voting yes though, since I definitely support the idea of including such characters in the series in general, which I think to be the general idea here.

I guess a "token bi" who you can marry regardless of the gender of your Avatar would be a good starting point as writing practice and testing the waters? Again, assuming this wasn't the only thing that defined the character and that any unnecessary attention wasn't drawn to this fact (I like to think the first Dragon Age did this one fairly well, although I hear what followed was less thans stellar)

[eclipse]

Perhaps we should change the poll to say, "assuming the character would be well written, would you support a LGBT character?" Because right now every is just bickering about how they'll be written and I don't feel like that was what the poll was trying to go for (OP correct me if I'm wrong). I mean, it's clear that no one wants to have a poorly written character ever, so why does this have to be the topic where, let's face it, everyone is just worried about bad characters, it's just manifesting as worrying about a bad homosexual/bisexual/pansexual character.

Then you might as well ask "assuming the character was well-written, would you support a character with purple hair?" Because I don't see a gigantic outcry over the hair colors used in FE. Likewise, a well-written not-straight character isn't going to draw attention to that facet of themselves for the sake of drawing attention there.

We actually have a movie about that, it's called American Sniper.

We also have this thing called "certain news channels" that does this. Still doesn't mean that I support the notion. However, American Sniper was about a singular person, not a running narrative that's "Christian good, Muslim bad" (disclaimer: Haven't seen the movie, and don't want to).

[SpeedB00st]

I'm okay with it, as long as the character is not a walking stereotype.

[Florete]

Perhaps we should change the poll to say, "assuming the character would be well written, would you support a LGBT character?" Because right now every is just bickering about how they'll be written and I don't feel like that was what the poll was trying to go for (OP correct me if I'm wrong). I mean, it's clear that no one wants to have a poorly written character ever, so why does this have to be the topic where, let's face it, everyone is just worried about bad characters, it's just manifesting as worrying about a bad homosexual/bisexual/pansexual character.

Seriously this.

No one wants a badly written character of any kind. No one wants a one-note character. This stuff should go without saying. It's annoying how whenever we get a topic asking if people would like some sort of different character, the responses are a ton of "only if they're well-written!" as though a poorly-written straight white male character is fine. This same thing happened with the topic asking how people would receive a Fire Emblem with two female lords.

Then you might as well ask "assuming the character was well-written, would you support a character with purple hair?" Because I don't see a gigantic outcry over the hair colors used in FE. Likewise, a well-written not-straight character isn't going to draw attention to that facet of themselves for the sake of drawing attention there.

This is a blatant strawman. There's no call or need for better inclusion and representation of purple-haired characters in media, unlike LGBT characters.

[Lawful Angry]

No problems with this at all. Like speedb00st, i'd rather not see stereotypes splattered all over the characters, but otherwise there should exist such options in the game.

[eclipse]

This is a blatant strawman. There's no call or need for better inclusion and representation of purple-haired characters in media, unlike LGBT characters.

That's how I feel about your attitude of "at least include them". It will be a giant disservice in the long run (like the token black guy in horror movies - how about the token lesbian in video games?). Do it once, and do it right.

[Yunanuy]

This is a blatant strawman. There's no call or need for better inclusion and representation of purple-haired characters in media, unlike LGBT characters.

The 'well-written' part that is being repeated...I don't think people mean that they want a badly written character, but more of a well-written = not a token gay character. At least that's how I feel.

damnit ninja'd

Edited June 6, 2015 by Val'air

[Elibean Spaceman]

Keep that yaoi and yuri out of my fire emblem, please. Thanks.

[The DanMan]

We actually have a movie about that, it's called American Sniper.

I'd love to hear a person's honest opinion on that movie someday that isn't just them ranting about the US intervention in the Middle East.

Let's include Christians as the main characters while we're at it. And make Muslims the bad guys. That's how it is in real life according to the US, right? (and for anyone who can't hear tone, I'm being sarcastic - I wouldn't support this kind of game, ever)

I wouldn't, either. Yet at the same time, would you deny that radical Muslims are causing death, chaos, and destruction in the Middle East, including the physical persecution of minorities?

And the US isn't a Christian country anymore. "Christianity", in that context, is just American civil religion; nothing more. Religion can be used as a tool for violence and personal gain just as any other agenda. We've got the radical Muslims in the Middle East today, as well as the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church during the middle ages and the crusades that stemmed from it. And then at the same time there was the Nazi's and the USSR; religiousless regimes that claimed more lives than any others.

We also have this thing called "certain news channels" that does this. Still doesn't mean that I support the notion. However, American Sniper was about a singular person, not a running narrative that's "Christian good, Muslim bad" (disclaimer: Haven't seen the movie, and don't want to).

Perfect example of political agendas; selectively distort what you can to help yours along.

But anyway, I've gotten waaay off-topic. Sorry about that.

I'm not against a couple of homo- or bi-sexual characters. I'd just think that it would end up being their main schtick. And then there's the other end of board, going Skyrim/Dragon Age with "everybody's bi!" So, add me into the boat that would be fine with a few LGBT characters, provided they're well written.

Keep that yaoi and yuri out of my fire emblem, please. Thanks.

Have you kept up with the thread? As long as they're well written, and their sexuality isn't their defining trait, most are in agreement.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Leon of Nohr

[Chrosion]

Keep that yaoi and yuri out of my fire emblem, please. Thanks.

but keep the hentai in not all same-sex love is inherently sexual

EDIT: new shot game: take a shot for every time you see "well-written" in this thread

Edited June 6, 2015 by Chrosion

[Topazd]

Well, who wouldn't want a well-written character? I doubt many would object if the poll was worded with the 'as long as they're well-written' attached. But that would really be a debate about LGBT relationships in general and have nothing to do with FE.

I have absolutely no confidence that IS, as it is now, could be expected to treat this issue with the respect it necessitates.

I'd love to hear a person's honest opinion on that movie someday that isn't just them ranting about the US intervention in the Middle East.

Every Finnish viewer of the movie ends up denouncing it simply because Simo Häyhä had more confirmed kills, so that isn't a much better alternative.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Topazd

[Florete]

That's how I feel about your attitude of "at least include them". It will be a giant disservice in the long run (like the token black guy in horror movies - how about the token lesbian in video games?). Do it once, and do it right.

What the hell are you talking about? My attitude is to at least let them seriously attempt it, because if they at least try, I don't think it can be that bad. Do you think any attempt they make will just be a stereotype?

IS isn't perfect, no one is, but I don't know why there doesn't seem to be anyone who can have just a little faith. How are they ever supposed to do it well if they never attempt it?

Your attitude is the annoying one. The attitude of just keeping the status quo because you're worried that any other attempt will be one big fuck-up. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. And even if FE were to include a poorly-written gay character, how would that be a "giant disservice?" It would be another to throw onto the pile and would ultimately be forgotten before too long. Certainly not the situation I want to see, but after weighing the possibilities, I want to see an attempt. A serious attempt. At least then I would know what they're capable of.

The 'well-written' part that is being repeated...I don't think people mean that they want a badly written character, but more of a well-written = not a token gay character. At least that's how I feel.

damnit ninja'd

But that's obvious. Does anyone actually think that anyone who supports LGBT inclusion will be happy with a stereotype? When someone says "only if they're well-written," it makes it sound like having poorly-written characters is fine so long as they're not a part of one of these "special" groups.

[Jedi]

What the hell are you talking about? My attitude is to at least let them seriously attempt it, because if they at least try, I don't think it can be that bad. Do you think any attempt they make will just be a stereotype?

IS isn't perfect, no one is, but I don't know why there doesn't seem to be anyone who can have just a little faith. How are they ever supposed to do it well if they never attempt it?

Your attitude is the annoying one. The attitude of just keeping the status quo because you're worried that any other attempt will be one big fuck-up. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. And even if FE were to include a poorly-written gay character, how would that be a "giant disservice?" It would be another to throw onto the pile and would ultimately be forgotten before too long. Certainly not the situation I want to see, but after weighing the possibilities, I want to see an attempt. A serious attempt. At least then I would know what they're capable of.

Well theres the thing, IS's current character writing post-Awakening I don't think is ready for something like this. Even with their new writer I'd rather them wait and actually think of the con's of possibly doing the character wrong, then just trying it ala super stereotype and insulting everyone in that particular camp.

Because doing something just because they can, isn't the way they should go about it. Doing it tastefully would have to take some very careful consideration I don't think they'd have currently.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Jedi

[dondon151]

Do you think any attempt they make will just be a stereotype?

hi awakening's characters

you know how they all have some sort of weird superlative? it's not too hard to imagine "nobody has a better sense of fashion than him" or "prances flamboyantly more than anyone" or "has the longest, thickest dick in the army" as a stock superlative for a gay dude.

[goodperson707]

The problem i find is that people do at least in part see what they want to see, and a great deal of people seem to expect characters to be not well done, or to just be a pile of tropes. When honestly i could turn nearly everything into a pile of clichés or tropes. So honestly no matter how respectfully done a LGB character is i am afraid people will think it is offensive or Sterotypical. I never knew for instance that people thought heather was a stereotype, she was the rouge who liked money and flirting with pretty girls, quite traditional for a rouge. I don't get the problem with using certain tropes, especially since they seem to go in and out of style, and i would rather not think that the art of good storytelling is considered to basically be a different type of fashion industry, disliking something cause it is out of style/date.

but keep the hentai in not all same-sex love is inherently sexual

EDIT: new shot game: take a shot for every time you see "well-written" in this thread

* goodperson707 can not respond to this post right now, he is in the hospital from retroactive alcohol poisoning*

[BRSxIgnition]

To be 5000% clear: By "LGBT Characters" I mean characters who are treated & written like human beings, who just happen to like their same gender or both genders instead of the other gender.

I do not mean "flamboyant" men or "man hating" women. (Ugh, Valkyria Chronicles, why...) I also don't want the cast to be brimming with pride. I just want LGBT minorities represented in the cast.

While I share the worries about the quality of the writers at IS, I have hope that the new writer they've been touting does a better job, and by extension, LGBT characters would be handled responsibly.

Edited June 6, 2015 by BRSxIgnition

[Florete]

Well theres the thing, IS's current character writing post-Awakening I don't think is ready for something like this. Even with their new writer I'd rather them wait and actually think of the con's of possibly doing the character wrong, then just trying it ala super stereotype and insulting everyone in that particular camp.

Because doing something just because they can, isn't the way they should go about it. Doing it tastefully would have to take some very careful consideration I don't think they'd have currently.

Real talk: Awakening's character writing is far from amazing, but I think it's better than most people give it credit for.

Maybe they'd do it poorly. I'm not saying otherwise. But if I can at least see that they tried, even that much is better than doing nothing at all. If they try and do poorly, that opens up the possibility of them learning from their mistakes and doing better. If they never try...they'll never do it well.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire

[szechuan]

Best thing they can do to the japanese video game industry, and Nintendo especially, is to include LGTB supports and make it visible. But it would be a pity that not everyone can be bi, although that is the correct way and the most realistic one (not everyone bi, some hetero, some homosexual and others bi, but I'll cry if Hinata is not romanceable by male kamui).

That's my last expectation from the game, please Nintendo,work miracles and open your mind.

[Rapier]

Depends. Most of the time, in media, gay characters are summed up to just that: Their sexuality. It is as if their personality is being gay, and being human comes after. If there are going to be gay characters in FE, I at least hope their sexual option will be a characteristic as it is in real life, and not a major factor in their personalities. Flanderized stereotypes suck.

That said, regarding Supports, are we speaking about a model similar to Awakening, where there are romantic S supports and marriages, or an Elibe/Tellius FE model, where Supports merely tie characters together usually without explicitely stating any romance and, in the end, they may end with a romance or not? About the former, I'd rather gay characters not be in a game with a premise similar to Awakening and FE4, where there's a parent-children system, because it necessitates heterosexual couples. About the latter, I've no issues whatsoever with a "... joined the man who Dagda loved" kind of ending.

I usually don't like yaoi couples, but if the rest likes them and it is a significant enough number of fans to drag IS' attention, then whatever floats your boat, I suppose. Let the customer decide, as they (Anna?) say.

Real talk: Awakening's character writing is far from amazing, but I think it's better than most people give it credit for.

Agreed. Awakening didn't have stellar dialogue, yet the dialogue was fun, and the characters were also fun. It's not bad, it's just not deep or complex.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Rapier

[Raguna]

Leaving any other perspective out of my mind, I don't think just by trying to make a LGBT character is good enough on its own. They obviously tried a bit with Heather and most people from what I read believe she's a shallow and bad attempt. Even characters like Kanji from Persona seems to be getting sullied as a bad attempt even though Kanji is one of the better examples because he is not defined by his sexuality. He's a macho tough guy trying to understand himself and most people wouldn't know he was struggling if this Persona game didn't dwell in the subconscious of the other characters. Kanji clearly accepts the other part of himself, but like any other character he struggles to know if he's doing the right decision for himself and he's only 14-15 in the game I'd cut him some slack before going to commit on anything.

People have flaws both in game and in real life. IS has to get them right for people to universally keep caring about them and using them as reference to writers who are in search of a good basis model to make other LGBT characters. So an attempt is nice, but not satisfactory if not done well.

[Yunanuy]

What the hell are you talking about? My attitude is to at least let them seriously attempt it, because if they at least try, I don't think it can be that bad. Do you think any attempt they make will just be a stereotype?

IS isn't perfect, no one is, but I don't know why there doesn't seem to be anyone who can have just a little faith. How are they ever supposed to do it well if they never attempt it?

Your attitude is the annoying one. The attitude of just keeping the status quo because you're worried that any other attempt will be one big fuck-up. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. And even if FE were to include a poorly-written gay character, how would that be a "giant disservice?" It would be another to throw onto the pile and would ultimately be forgotten before too long. Certainly not the situation I want to see, but after weighing the possibilities, I want to see an attempt. A serious attempt. At least then I would know what they're capable of.

But that's obvious. Does anyone actually think that anyone who supports LGBT inclusion will be happy with a stereotype? When someone says "only if they're well-written," it makes it sound like having poorly-written characters is fine so long as they're not a part of one of these "special" groups.

I know it probably wasn't entirely directed at me, but: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=54330&p=3801518

I think they can do it. My worries are that they'll find ways to make it ambiguous enough that no one can say for certain if they made such a character or not. I just don't think they're brave enough to pull it off, even though I still think they should.

Kanji is one of the better examples because he is not defined by his sexuality.

My issue with Kanji was not his character itself, but the representation of it and how his character interacted with others when faced with the question of "are you gay or are you not?". Outside of that, I think his character had a lot of potential, they just happened to sully it with tropes and excuses.

IIRC there's a scene where Yosuke actually asks him just so 'he can know what to expect' or something like that, and Kanji says he's not -- which to me is not 'denial', since the whole Persona thing is about accepting yourself, but grasping at straws to tell the viewers that it's your choice. Honestly, a gay character is not inherently gay if you're the one who decides it. Unless it's the MC, which is a whole different story.

Just to add onto the pile, he's into a girl. So there's that.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Val'air