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Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?


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Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?  

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  1. 1. Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?

    • Yes, I would like to see - or wouldn't mind - LGBT characters in "Fire Emblem: If"
      364
    • No, I would not like to see - or would mind - LGBT characters in "Fire Emblem: If"
      87


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Let's include Christians as the main characters while we're at it. And make Muslims the bad guys. That's how it is in real life according to the US, right?

Interesting for you to bring this up. Actually, this is what it is like in a lot of FE games (there are bad guys, like the Loputo sect in FE4, are followers of a religion--comparable to Islam but that is going off topic--and doing evil things, and there are good guys, like Naga's people in FE4).

Anyway, it's important to distinguish between biology and sociology. I want the biology of human beings to be a part of Fire Emblem, not Christianity and Islam. The biology of human beings says that many of them can be gay. I want that to be included. The biology of human beings does not have a predisposition towards Christianity and Islam in particular--but people do have a predisposition to be religious. Yes, I want to see religion in FE, and we already see plenty of it!

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Kanji is an annoying case because there are instances where it's implied he's attracted to women and instances where it's implied he is attracted to men, but instead of addressing the obvious (that he's bisexual) the characters argue back and forth on whether he's gay or straight, as if they are the only options.

It's not as difficult to write a good homosexual or bisexual character as some people are making it out to be. Literally take any well-written character and just have them happen to like people of the same gender. It's that easy. Conveying that to the audience without making it too subtle or beating people over the head with it is a bit trickier, but no more difficult than indicating a character is attracted to the opposite gender, which you see handled perfectly well everywhere.

It's Japanese ignorance about the subject matter that makes it unlikely to be handled well, not that the subject matter itself is difficult to get right.

Edited by EJ107
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^^ not all members of the loptyr were bad guys in the backstory, Saint Maria's splinter faction for instance. It is just the amount of pre-time skip loptyr priests were low and more a cult than anything. Also Saias from Thraica, he also implies that if you disagree or try to leave, they will (try)to kill you.

Edited by goodperson707
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^ not all members of the loptyr were bad guys in the backstory, Saint Maria's splinter faction for instance. It is just the amount of pre-time skip loptyr priests were low and more a cult than anything. Also Saias from Thraica, he also implies that if you disagree or try to leave, they will (try)to kill you.

Not denying this at all, but it doesn't change the fact that religious people are the bad guys in that game.

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Well yeah but do note that a good amount of bad guys in both the 1st and 2nd gens happened to be descendants of the 12 crusaders and are not members of the Loptyr church. And that both characters with Loptyr blood were not bad people, well Arvis is debatable of course.

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Speaking of which, I haven't really heard of any positive reinforcement for LGBT from Japan - like someone mentioned earlier, the media and culture view of Japan seems to take a very negative view on such, and that's why I wonder if they won't just tease it like they always do but never actually give anything.

Edit: Bleh, deleted some stuff.

As someone who may eventually go into development, I do think that ultimately it is the decision and freedom of the developer if they want to put this in and I don't agree with badgering them even if you feel that something is underepresented in gaming is the way to go. Not saying that anyone has done this but it is a rather unfortunate thing that happens.

Doesn't meke sense put LGBT characters in a medieval setting, and we don't know if they will even include a "pairing system" (PLEASE DON'T INCLUDE)

I know this was a while back, but how many people in medieval times could shoot fireballs and call down thunder? There's a reason it is considered a game, and there's also a reason that the logic from the game isn't congruent with reality and is batshit insane and often nonsensical. People often talk about how Fire Emblem is a medieval setting - it is a fantasy setting, medieval because they use melee weapons and have armies? I wouldn't specifically say so.

If you still wanted to hold onto the fact that the setting has it out for these people, you could also put said LGBT characters in that are shunned by their society without much issue anyway. It could even show character development, such as how Jill original view of the laguz compared to the sympathy she shows later. Of course, you would have to see a mature execution, and that's why I'm a little skeptical.

Edited by Tryhard
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It's not as difficult to write a good homosexual or bisexual character as some people are making it out to be. Literally take any well-written character and just make them like people of the same gender. It's that easy. Conveying that to the audience without making it too subtle or beating people over the head with it is a bit trickier, but no more difficult than indicating a character is attracted to the opposite gender, which you see done perfectly well everywhere.

Awakening's support system makes it so easy to do, too. A-C supports are generally platonic in nature and tell complete stories on their own without leaving the player feeling as if they are missing part of the narrative; romance won't kick in at all unless you opt to view their S support, providing one exists. Same-sex romance could follow the same script: have them do something, flesh out a bit of their personality or backstory, resolve it, and then tack on an optional confession at the end if the player so chooses to pair them together. You could write quick proposals for most of the same-sex supports in Awakening, and their format wouldn't differ in the slightest from the M/F ones. There isn't even a need to divulge into their sexualities at any point -- just treat it as the natural progression of a close relationship between two people. I wouldn't be surprised if they threw in a quick "But we're both [insert gender here]!" line during one of the confessions due to its prominence in many pieces of Japanese media, but otherwise? They could probably just copy whatever the most generic confession was, change the names, and call it a day.

Whether you find this system believable or not lies in your views of Awakening's supports and has nothing to do with the gender of the characters involved at all.

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I want to clear some things up about Dragon Age since it keeps coming up:

1. Dragon Age:Origins had 2 romanceable straight companions and 2 romanceable bi companions. Other NPCs have a variety of sexual orientations.

2. Dragon Age 2 has 4 romanceable bi companions and 1 romanceable (although he's DLC and the romance is...less complete) straight companion. Other NPCs have a variety of sexual orientations.

3. Dragon Age:Inquisition had 4 romanceable straight companions/advisors, 2 romanceable bi companions/advisors, 1 romanceable gay companion, 1 romanceable lesbian companion. Other NPCs have a variety of sexual orientations.

So before you say "It should/shouldn't be handled like Dragon Age", please specify what you mean(and know what you're talking about).

Edited by -Cynthia-
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^ actually i don't think they were quite clear on the orientations of some of the dargon age II companions, Anders (and maybe Merrill i am not sure) I think are ambiguous on wether they are bi or just switch to match your character's gender but otherwise thanks for the useful clarifications

Edited by goodperson707
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No one wants a badly written character of any kind. No one wants a one-note character. This stuff should go without saying. It's annoying how whenever we get a topic asking if people would like some sort of different character, the responses are a ton of "only if they're well-written!" as though a poorly-written straight white male character is fine. This same thing happened with the topic asking how people would receive a Fire Emblem with two female lords.

It doesn't go without saying. A lot of people would think any kind of LGBT character is a good inclusion, regardless of the quality of the writing. They'd like a well written character more, but they will settle for less. Your disagreement with eclipse illustrates this.

What the hell are you talking about? My attitude is to at least let them seriously attempt it, because if they at least try, I don't think it can be that bad. Do you think any attempt they make will just be a stereotype?

IS isn't perfect, no one is, but I don't know why there doesn't seem to be anyone who can have just a little faith. How are they ever supposed to do it well if they never attempt it?

Your attitude is the annoying one. The attitude of just keeping the status quo because you're worried that any other attempt will be one big fuck-up. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. And even if FE were to include a poorly-written gay character, how would that be a "giant disservice?" It would be another to throw onto the pile and would ultimately be forgotten before too long. Certainly not the situation I want to see, but after weighing the possibilities, I want to see an attempt. A serious attempt. At least then I would know what they're capable of.

But that's obvious. Does anyone actually think that anyone who supports LGBT inclusion will be happy with a stereotype? When someone says "only if they're well-written," it makes it sound like having poorly-written characters is fine so long as they're not a part of one of these "special" groups.

While you both support the inclusion of gay characters, eclipse adds on the condition of them being well written. "Do it well or don't do it at all." Some people feel that stereotypical representations of gays do more harm than good so they shouldn't be included if they aren't going to be nuanced. You on the other hand appreciate any effort to include them. The poll didn't reflect these differences in opinions. It was either yay or nay.

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I want to clear some things up about Dragon Age since it keeps coming up:

1. Dragon Age:Origins had 2 romanceable straight companions and 2 romanceable bi companions. Other NPCs have a variety of sexual orientations.

2. Dragon Age 2 has 4 romanceable bi companions and 1 romanceable (although he's DLC and the romance is...less complete) straight companion. Other NPCs have a variety of sexual orientations.

3. Dragon Age:Inquisition had 4 romanceable straight companions/advisors, 2 romanceable bi companions/advisors, 1 romanceable gay companion, 1 romanceable lesbian companion. Other NPCs have a variety of sexual orientations.

So before you say "It should/shouldn't be handled like Dragon Age", please specify what you mean(and know what you're talking about).

not to mention, forgive me if i'm wrong, but the choices are only equal in terms of sexual preference, as soon as we involve genders, it gets switched over to females having more options. (talking about inquistition)

with a bi male only getting like, 2 choice compaired to bi female who got like, 5.

once again i speak with what might be outdated information and i don't have the chart infront of me, but i remember this being a big deal back when it came out.

also step right up to SF mods butting heads with each other, we're going into the 5th round and neither one are giving each other any room, can red fire fox's shoryuken KO eclipse's moonlight blast? tune in after the break.

Edited by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai
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not to mention, forgive me if i'm wrong, but the choices are only equal in terms of sexual preference, as soon as we involve genders, it gets switched over to females having more options. (talking about inquistition)

with a bi male only getting like, 2 choice compaired to bi female who got like, 5.

once again i speak with what might be outdated information and i don't have the chart infront of me, but i remember this being a big deal back when it came out.

also step right up to SF mods butting heads with each other, we're going into the 5th round and neither one are giving each other any room, can red fire fox's shoryuken KO eclipse's moonlight blast? tune in after the break.

Straight males had two options, straight females had 4 options, gay men and women had 2 options each, bisexual women got 6 options and bisexual men got 4 options. The biggest complaints were that one of the larger demographics, straight men, were given the least amount of options (tied with gay characters).

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Straight males had two options, straight females had 4 options, gay men and women had 2 options each, bisexual women got 6 options and bisexual men got 4 options. The biggest complaints were that one of the larger demographics, straight men, were given the least amount of options (tied with gay characters).

alright thank you for clarifying my misinformation, so its not equal on a gender ratio or a sexuality ratio, sure as heck isn't "justice" or 'fair" either. Words i keep seeing flung around here, despite that i support well written gays, I'm saying it because i personally like it, not because it'd be "fair or just" which I've already stated to be social constructs and none seems to be able to tell me "where do we draw the line with adding in stuff?"

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It doesn't go without saying. A lot of people would think any kind of LGBT character is a good inclusion, regardless of the quality of the writing. They'd like a well written character more, but they will settle for less. Your disagreement with eclipse illustrates this.

I think there's been a total of about 0 people in this topic who appear to think that any inclusion of an LGBT character is good, even if it's a blatant stereotype played for comedy.

While you both support the inclusion of gay characters, eclipse adds on the condition of them being well written. "Do it well or don't do it at all." Some people feel that stereotypical representations of gays do more harm than good so they shouldn't be included if they aren't going to be nuanced. You on the other hand appreciate any effort to include them. The poll didn't reflect these differences in opinions. It was either yay or nay.

I think you misunderstood me slightly. I don't support just any attempt, I support a serious attempt. An attempt to write a good LGBT character, because I don't expect perfection, especially not on the first venture. A comical stereotype is not okay, but I also doubt IS would go there in the first place.
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alright thank you for clarifying my misinformation, so its not equal on a gender ratio or a sexuality ratio, sure as heck isn't "justice" or 'fair" either. Words i keep seeing flung around here, despite that i support well written gays, I'm saying it because i personally like it, not because it'd be "fair or just" which I've already stated to be social constructs and none seems to be able to tell me "where do we draw the line with adding in stuff?"

The word justice was only mentioned on this thread by: a poster complaining about SJ leaking into video games, People responding to that poster, Soapbar mentioning pandering to SJs as a hypothetical complaint. Oh and you. Yeah i would hardly consider that thrown around. Only person who mentioned it more than once was you. And no one brought it up as a reason for why it LGB characters should be in this game. If this fourms search results are wrong in some way. I apologize in advance. Edited by goodperson707
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I think there's been a total of about 0 people in this topic who appear to think that any inclusion of an LGBT character is good, even if it's a blatant stereotype played for comedy.

I think you misunderstood me slightly. I don't support just any attempt, I support a serious attempt. An attempt to write a good LGBT character, because I don't expect perfection, especially not on the first venture. A comical stereotype is not okay, but I also doubt IS would go there in the first place.

People won't openly state they'd settle for comical stereotypes (why settle for less when you can ask for more) but I imagine if they were given the options, "You can either get 5 Heather/Jan (VC character) tier gay characters or none at all" they would still choose the more poorly written characters over getting nothing. It's subjective whether characters like Heather and Jan are good enough to be progressive inclusions (I'm rather indifferent). Some will say they are good enough, others will say bad gay characters shouldn't be included at all.

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I think there's been a total of about 0 people in this topic who appear to think that any inclusion of an LGBT character is good, even if it's a blatant stereotype played for comedy.

Are you mainly referring to how nobody wants badly written LGBT characters, or LGBT characters in general?

If it's the latter: What thread have you been reading - and apparently moderating?

One look at the poll disproves that entire sentence; so does any actual reading through the topic.

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I am quite sure Red Fox of Fire means the former, (judging by her previous posts)but that she means by badly written that it means badly written for the wrong reasons ie blatant offensive sterotype character. Instead of badly executed due to not being used to writing LGB characters. if i am wrong i apologize Red Fox of Fire.

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Are you mainly referring to how nobody wants badly written LGBT characters, or LGBT characters in general?

If it's the latter: What thread have you been reading - and apparently moderating?

One look at the poll disproves that entire sentence; so does any actual reading through the topic.

I am quite sure Red Fox of Fire means the former, (judging by her previous posts)but that she means by badly written that it means badly written for the wrong reasons ie blatant offensive sterotype character. Instead of badly executed due to not being used to writing LGB characters. if i am wrong i apologize Red Fox of Fire.

Pretty spot-on, goodperson707.

I don't think I've seen a single post implying something like, "I'll take any kind of gay character, even a comically offensive stereotype." Someone even joked about how often the term "well-written" has been used.

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Pretty spot-on, goodperson707.

I don't think I've seen a single post implying something like, "I'll take any kind of gay character, even a comically offensive stereotype." Someone even joked about how often the term "well-written" has been used.

Ah I see - I had a pretty knee-jerk reaction when I first saw the post.

I'll be fine as long as IS gives it an earnest attempt though - bad or not, for a first attempt it's better than not having any inclusion of it at all.

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^^ * finally exhales. okay thats good i get a bit anxious about speaking for people but you were off-line when i checked so i decided to let it be said sooner rather than latter.

And yeah there was a joke about how much the term well written was used. as i am posting subconsciously from the hospital, due to retroactive alcohol poisoning from taking a shot for every well written in this thread

Edited by goodperson707
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People won't openly state they'd settle for comical stereotypes (why settle for less when you can ask for more) but I imagine if they were given the options, "You can either get 5 Heather/Jan (VC character) tier gay characters or none at all" they would still choose the more poorly written characters over getting nothing. It's subjective whether characters like Heather and Jan are good enough to be progressive inclusions (I'm rather indifferent). Some will say they are good enough, others will say bad gay characters shouldn't be included at all.

i guess I'd be able to settle for just one or two comical stereotypes personally, better than none I guess. any more than that and it'd just be a mockery of the community which I wouldn't be okay with.

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Give Shadow Dragon a whirl. Many of the characters have one line of dialogue, which is a death quote.

It's pretty rare that I run across someone that shares this sentiment. It also means that I can write about the characters, and I don't feel as stifled by the creators as, say, the Greil mercenaries in Tellius (not 'cause they're badly-written, but because so much is written about them).

I am one of the few people who absolutely loves SD for what it tried to do. While I don't enjoy it as much as FE1 on the old Mystery cart (art direction and mounting/dismounting), it is among my favorites in the series.

It's a shame the the injection of self into a character has pretty much been ignored as a point, because now that supports are growing to such a point that we not only assume them, we expect them and want more and more writing instead of gameplay - that is what scares us as FE fans.

Raven is an amazing unit. Even if he was gay, who gives a shit, his job is to stab people and axe questions later.

Edited by Wellgarth
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Kind of a random thought, piecing together FE and VC - since we've already seen the inclusion of personal skills, what if we had an LGB character who got a skill like those VC potentials "likes men" or "likes women" and that's how we learned about their sexual orientation, rather than through it being shoved in our faces through dialogue? For instance, in VC it's very obvious that Jan is supposed to be gay, and Dallas is also quite the stereotype if you read her backstory, and you don't need their potentials to know that. Ted, on the other hand, is, IIRC, totally normal except that he both "likes men" and "likes women." That's at least how I "figured out" his sexual orientation. I mean, part of the problem in FE is that most characters don't get much screen time - supports tend to be awfully short, after all - so anything we learn about them is either really obvious or posed as a revelation. If we just use a different outlet for it, we could avoid that. Another option I wouldn't mind would be to have a L/G couple join, although that of course doesn't open the romance for Kamui but who care about that anyway?

Edited by Rewjeo
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Kind of a random thought, piecing together FE and VC - since we've already seen the inclusion of personal skills, what if we had an LGB character who got a skill like those VC potentials "likes men" or "likes women" and that's how we learned about their sexual orientation, rather than through it being shoved in our faces through dialogue? For instance, in VC it's very obvious that Jan is supposed to be gay, and Dallas is also quite the stereotype if you read her backstory, and you don't need their potentials to know that. Ted, on the other hand, is, IIRC, totally normal except that he both "likes men" and "likes women." That's at least how I "figured out" his sexual orientation. I mean, part of the problem in FE is that most characters don't get much screen time - supports tend to be awfully short, after all - so anything we learn about them is either really obvious or posed as a revelation. If we just use a different outlet for it, we could avoid that. Another option I wouldn't mind would be to have a L/G couple join, although that of course doesn't open the romance for Kamui but who care about that anyway?

replacing someone's personal skill with literally "is gay" is a bad idea from every viewpoint. it replaces something they could've had going for them as a unit (some personal skills seem to be handy asf) with "supports with _"

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