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Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?


BRSxIgnition
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Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?  

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  1. 1. Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?

    • Yes, I would like to see - or wouldn't mind - LGBT characters in "Fire Emblem: If"
      364
    • No, I would not like to see - or would mind - LGBT characters in "Fire Emblem: If"
      87


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replacing someone's personal skill with literally "is gay" is a bad idea from every viewpoint. it replaces something they could've had going for them as a unit (some personal skills seem to be handy asf) with "supports with _"

A hypothetical unit having a +10% (or whatever would be appropriately powerful) chance of dual guarding/attacking with someone of the same sex could sure be handy from a gameplay perspective, or getting +10% crit, or whatever. I mean, if Ted's stats were good enough, I'd certainly consider using him in VC because I know that putting him next to anyone can buff him. (A Gatrie/Sain/etc. type character could similarly have a personal skill that buffs them around units of the opposite sex.) Assuming characters don't suddenly have way more screen-time this time around it also means that we don't need to deal with that during supports and it can just sort of be taken for granted. A lot of how the specifics would be handled will depend on how romance is handled more generally this time around, though. I mean, if we are going to do the whole everyone can marry anyone thing again, there will always be awkwardness because only the last support can actually be romantic. (Edit: although it would actually be awesome if two same-sex characters realized they were both L/G/B in a support and then didn't end up together.) On the other hand, if only certain pairings exist again, we don't have to worry about it at all because two guys/two girls could just end up having a romantic support organically without anything ever being said about their orientation. I mean, if IS was comfortable doing it that way.

Edited by Rewjeo
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Kind of a random thought, piecing together FE and VC - since we've already seen the inclusion of personal skills, what if we had an LGB character who got a skill like those VC potentials "likes men" or "likes women" and that's how we learned about their sexual orientation, rather than through it being shoved in our faces through dialogue? For instance, in VC it's very obvious that Jan is supposed to be gay, and Dallas is also quite the stereotype if you read her backstory, and you don't need their potentials to know that. Ted, on the other hand, is, IIRC, totally normal except that he both "likes men" and "likes women." That's at least how I "figured out" his sexual orientation. I mean, part of the problem in FE is that most characters don't get much screen time - supports tend to be awfully short, after all - so anything we learn about them is either really obvious or posed as a revelation. If we just use a different outlet for it, we could avoid that. Another option I wouldn't mind would be to have a L/G couple join, although that of course doesn't open the romance for Kamui but who care about that anyway?

Characters only get one personal skill though and so far all skills have been unique. So i don't see personal skills being used like that, it also sounds quite offensive at face value to have a skill showing a characters personality involving their orientation, not saying i can't see a skill involving their orientation done well but it wont be just so we can tell their sexuality. But now you have me wondering how demoiselle and its apparent male equivalent would work with LGB characters, especially with the potential Bi characters. Would they make Bi characters benefit from both? What else could they do? Ect. Thats an Interesting question imo. I kinda like the idea of a couple, but i would like more previously established couples in FE regardless anyway.
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Yes, I'd like to see LGBT supports (and paired endings) because of my sweet yaoi it'd be a fresh addition to the support system.

Seconding the sentiment that it's better not to show a character's sexuality through a skill slot. It'd be better if they just mention it in passing. Even better, you can just imply their sexuality based on who they can S support with.

Male Kamui can S support with Harold? Make the convo romantic like it was in Awakening, and that's all you need. Have the convo written in a way that implies that homosexuality isn't frowned upon in the setting, like how hetero isn't a problem in Awakening's setting.

That implementation should displease nobody who supports LGBT, since there'd be no overt exclamations along the lines of "I'm gay, guys!".

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I suppose another flame bait question to ask is: How stereo typical are they allowed to be? While (as far as I know) bisexuals don't get stereotyped much, if there was a gay character, would call someone sweatheart a few times be acceptable? Because while no one likes stereotypes, there are people who do act in a stereotypical manner, but we don't say 'you're bad for the community, stop acting so stereotypical'.... I hope.

Edited by Trickster
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It would be hard to do ok, I think. I think the problem stems from this idea that a person or character who belongs to a minority group most of the time becomes a "spokeperson" or representative of that minority group through their actions. So how a gay character is written will reflect back on the gay community and identity because of that minority status. A poorly written straight character will be judged as an individual, not as a reflection or representative of the "straight" social group. A poorly written gay character will be judged as a member of the gay social identity, much less as an individual, at least on a more general scale. Its hard to balance expression of a minority identity to show diversity, acceptance, pride, etc. in that minority with the weight of how much that person or character will reflect back on the perception of that identity or community.

Also what might be more realistic with LGBT pairings is if there are two or 3 non-straight characters but they don't necessarily have the opportunity for paired endings. Sexuality can be a uniting characteristic for some people and in some situations, but it is just one facet of a person's personality. On the other hand, having just one non-straight character and having them just be alone is disheartening, especially since I would like same sex couples in all forms of media to become more normalized and nuanced.

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^^ While i do not know the stereotypes that well tbh, some people might take any Sterotypical elements as the character being Sterotypical. Apparently One optional convo with Bro, with some elements that are Sterotypical and a suddenly heather is a Stereotype not saying people can not think she is one, but it does lower my expectations a bit that any characters with any elements that could be considered Stereotypical won't be regarded as just stereotypes. But i do get the problems with stereotypes.

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replacing someone's personal skill with literally "is gay" is a bad idea from every viewpoint. it replaces something they could've had going for them as a unit (some personal skills seem to be handy asf) with "supports with _"

Seconding the sentiment that it's better not to show a character's sexuality through a skill slot. It'd be better if they just mention it in passing. Even better, you can just imply their sexuality based on who they can S support with.

We already have a skill that is based on gender, "Demoiselle". The personal skill doesn't need to literally be "is gay" it can just subtly elude to them having a preference to hanging out with the same gender. "Lace Lover: When adjacent to a female ally, this unit get's +10% avoid" "Muscle lover: When adjacent to a male ally, this unit gets +10% avoid" Also works with Rinka

Characters only get one personal skill though and so far all skills have been unique. So i don't see personal skills being used like that, it also sounds quite offensive at face value to have a skill showing a characters personality involving their orientation, not saying i can't see a skill involving their orientation done well but it wont be just so we can tell their sexuality. But now you have me wondering how demoiselle and its apparent male equivalent would work with LGB characters, especially with the potential Bi characters. Would they make Bi characters benefit from both? What else could they do? Ect. Thats an Interesting question imo. I kinda like the idea of a couple, but i would like more previously established couples in FE regardless anyway.

For simplicity's sake, they probably work the same on all members of the same gender.

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I don't mind same sex romance, but I do vote 'No' in favor for reasons for the game. I think IS know if they put to much romance choice, then they'll might get the wrong message across on what FE is. A good example is Awakening, the fact it was meant for new comers could just add for pander and, like I said, give the wrong message. The least they could have done is add S support bromance. I mean Ike did it.

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I don't mind same sex romance, but I do vote 'No' in favor for reasons for the game. I think IS know if they put to much romance choice, then they'll might get the wrong message across on what FE is. A good example is Awakening, the fact it was meant for new comers could just add for pander and, like I said, give the wrong message. The least they could have done is add S support bromance. I mean Ike did it.

Seriously? Are you for real right now? I'm not mad but what the crud? You think somebody who is homosexual "sends a wrong message" in a fire emblem game? FEif is a game where you can go to bathhouses, rub people's faces and raise 'capsule monsters', but gay people would send the wrong message,not those other things? Is the wrong message that they support gay rights? I'm sorry,but what...? They're already experimenting with their game, they might as well put it out there and see how people react, take that info, and if there's a FE15, then they use the knowledge they gained by the experimenting and make that game even BETTER.

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I am all for LGBT representation, being part of the community myself.

Doing a quick skim of the thread my opinion basically mirrors BRSxIgnition's, and I honestly gotta give you some credit with how you are handling some things being said in this thread, you have far more patience than I do.

I'll be fine as long as IS gives it an earnest attempt though - bad or not, for a first attempt it's better than not having any inclusion of it at all.

Basically. If IS were to put proper effort into writing/including LGBT characters into the game (as long as it isn't borderline offensive, though I feel like that goes without saying) then they'll have my two thumbs up and hopes that their next attempt would be better. It's all about the baby steps.

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Isn't heather from FE10 pretty much lesbian?

I wouldn't mind a few homosexual characters (even if they're a bit out of place, in a medieval setting considering in medieval times there was a death sentence for that).

I only hope they wouldn't turn it into a gimmick, like how they mad Kjelle's feminism a gimmick (in other words, not have it shoved in your face constantly, because, yes we get it, no reason to yell it from the rooftops).

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lol, you guys are concerned about the wrong stereotype considering the demographics of the series right now

if there's an explictly gay character then in the case of a he they're going to be a brusque bad-boy (can also be the opposite and be a tightass rulewhore) who gets exposed to have a hypersensitive core, and subsequently ends up as a dependant uke (gee where have I heard this before). this is the most popular stereotype in BL media and slash fiction by a very wide margin. I mean this shit basically writes itself, the avatar can even fill in for being the experienced, dominant seme (because lol avatar). If there's somehow more than one gay guy in the cast then you only have to make sure theres at least one dude being emasculated in any given scenario and fujoshi will lap it up.

as for girls, make sure they hold hands and cry at some point and it'll be a certified success.

I have NFI what they'd do with with an actual trans char though, since the usual "oops i mistook your gender" joke doesn't really work if the char ACTUALLY identifies as the gender they're passing as (not that it's funny anyway, especially when they repeat it a million times like with Libra)

anyway the point is, you shouldn't worry about "token" exaggerated LGBT chars since characters in this series are all just made for gratification now, so expect popular story devices, not gags.

Edited by Irysa
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(even if they're a bit out of place, in a medieval setting considering in medieval times there was a death sentence for that).

I've tried staying out of this thread since people who are better at expressing themselves than I should handle debates like these, but I feel like I've got to personally ask you what a real medieval setting has to do with Fire Emblem. While it's true that it was straight up illegal being homosexual in those days, such things are simply not relevant in the Fire Emblem series. Back then you hardly had women in the army (or even at all, right?) and they were most certainly not dressed in mini skirts, royalty didn't fraternize with the common man and so on.

Fire Emblem has a romanticized view of the middle ages like most entertainment media, so acting like a homosexual character is out of place is laughable.

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I would like to see a homosexual character, but there are all sorts of things that need to be done right about it. I will use a gay male for my examples

- First off it shouldn't be overdone. I would even like to not directly learn of his sexuallity outside of supports, so it gets integrated in the character more organically.

- He should not have mostly male supports. That he is gay should not mean he interacts less with women, and if it IS the case, that is a perfect setup for some character development thorugh supports with females.

- Not every male support should be romantic. One otherwise hetero guy that ends up with him anyway would be fine, but this should not be overdone

- Especially his supports with M!Avatar, as much as Tumblr would flip their shit over it, should NOT be romantic in nature. It would be too jarring for people that are not comfortable with homosexuallity.

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I've tried staying out of this thread since people who are better at expressing themselves than I should handle debates like these, but I feel like I've got to personally ask you what a real medieval setting has to do with Fire Emblem. While it's true that it was straight up illegal being homosexual in those days, such things are simply not relevant in the Fire Emblem series. Back then you hardly had women in the army (or even at all, right?) and they were most certainly not dressed in mini skirts, royalty didn't fraternize with the common man and so on.

Fire Emblem has a romanticized view of the middle ages like most entertainment media, so acting like a homosexual character is out of place is laughable.

You might have missed the part where I said I wouldn't mind them being in there, I usually just lose immersion whenever something happens that doesn't fit in the setting. (Of course this would be different if the setting was that of a fantasy setting but last time I checked there's no dwarves, elves or anything of the sort).

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You might have missed the part where I said I wouldn't mind them being in there, I usually just lose immersion whenever something happens that doesn't fit in the setting. (Of course this would be different if the setting was that of a fantasy setting but last time I checked there's no dwarves, elves or anything of the sort).

A Tolkien style setting is not the only kind of fantasy world. Pegasi, Dragons, Animal people, Gargoyles and Wizards are fantasy. Giant Floating Eyeballs and Zombies are probably more horror, though.

Edited by BrightBow
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You might have missed the part where I said I wouldn't mind them being in there, I usually just lose immersion whenever something happens that doesn't fit in the setting. (Of course this would be different if the setting was that of a fantasy setting but last time I checked there's no dwarves, elves or anything of the sort).

I didn't miss that, nor did I accuse you of anything, I just find your reasoning very, very odd. By that logic, there are so many things that don't fit which would ruin your immersion on a regular basis.

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I didn't miss that, nor did I accuse you of anything, I just find your reasoning very, very odd. By that logic, there are so many things that don't fit which would ruin your immersion on a regular basis.

With everything said, I'll probably get used to it, there have been points where I did lose a bit of immersion, usually after "little girl killing trained soldiers in a miniskirt #5" I get used to it, maybe I'm just rambling...

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- Especially his supports with M!Avatar, as much as Tumblr would flip their shit over it, should NOT be romantic in nature. It would be too jarring for people that are not comfortable with homosexuallity.

What. LGBT peolpe exist, we're not some tumblr fad. Protecting the feelings of homophobes is not as important as treating LGBT people with respect. They don't have to romance him.

Edited by capmalachi
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^ actually i don't think they were quite clear on the orientations of some of the dargon age II companions, Anders (and maybe Merrill i am not sure) I think are ambiguous on wether they are bi or just switch to match your character's gender but otherwise thanks for the useful clarifications

Yeah, all the non-Isabela companions could possible be interpreted as any orientation depending on the playthrough, although Gaider recently stated that they're all indeed bisexual I believe.

Straight males had two options, straight females had 4 options, gay men and women had 2 options each, bisexual women got 6 options and bisexual men got 4 options. The biggest complaints were that one of the larger demographics, straight men, were given the least amount of options (tied with gay characters).

In Inquisition, straight/bi women get more options while straight men/gay men/lesbians get 2 options each yes. I don't have a problem with this personally (yes even when the group in question that gets more is straight men as usually is the case) as each group got at least 2 options. It seems better than say Mass Effect, where gay men got 0 options until Mass Effect 3, straight women could potentially have 0 options in Mass Effect 3 etc.

alright thank you for clarifying my misinformation, so its not equal on a gender ratio or a sexuality ratio, sure as heck isn't "justice" or 'fair" either. Words i keep seeing flung around here, despite that i support well written gays, I'm saying it because i personally like it, not because it'd be "fair or just" which I've already stated to be social constructs and none seems to be able to tell me "where do we draw the line with adding in stuff?"

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that numbers must be completely equal for things to be 'just' or 'fair'- I imagine that most supporters of LGBT content would be fine with LGBT characters representing a smaller percentage than straight characters. There's a pretty big difference between some representation and none at all I think.

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I’m all for LGBT relationships in Fire Emblem If. It would be a good step in the right direction.

But as much as I’d love to have it in the game, I have to admit that it’s difficult. So I’ve thought about it a lot and would like to bring up an idea:

Instead of making a few selected characters LGBT, or all of them bisexual, why not go the obvious route and make Kamui’s sexuality “undetermined”? As in let them S-support whoever they want?


I mean since Kamui is supposed to represent the player anyway, why not?

You wouldn’t have the problem of a few characters having limited supports because they aren’t straight. Also you wouldn’t have to worry about tropes, bad characterization and focusing merely on their sexuality, because the main character is obviously more than that.

From the standpoint of IS and Nintendo it would also be the easiest and most effortless way, since (assuming that the Avatar still gets to support anyone) you could simply add a few additional S-supports.


Also imagine how easily it would fit into the game’s main theme: having a choice.

It depends on the player if the Avatar dates the opposite or same sex. The player technically chooses the sexuality of their MU depending on how they play the game.


I’d say making Kamuis sexuality “unconfirmed” would be the way to go. Even though I’d like to have more LGBT representation in-game, realistically speaking, we probably won’t get anything more than that. (At least at the moment.)

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I'm praying to God and Jesus and all the angels and saints I know for at least CamillaxRinka to be possible. And yes I'm a Christian who supports gay rights and is part of the LGTB community herself (bi and proud). I just hope it's well written and NOT stereotypical.

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Here's yet another gay person to chuck their two cents in.

I want LGBT content in the game even if it's not done very well. I'll cringe, yes, but I'll live with it. It's not ideal, sure, but I'll manage. It would be unreasonable for me to expect perfection on the first attempt at anything. The first attempt should be more like a promise that there will be future attempts and that improvements will be made.

If the writers are not ready to make that commitment, then they shouldn't. Having LGBT content in one game only for it to disappear in the next would be more frustrating than having to wait a bit longer for it to be included. If tropey/stereotypical characters are included, I can give the writers the benefit of the doubt as long as the next game improves from there. I don't think an unsatisfactory first attempt will cause that much long lasting damage. I think the permanent damage would come from the writers refusing to move on from any tropes/stereotypes that they use.

I want this content but that's entirely selfish on my part. If there can't (or won't) be a commitment to future improvement on representation, it's probably better to wait until there can be. I can wait. I'm a very patient guy.

Then again, I'm highly ignorant of not only Japan's attitudes towards LGBT issues, but also the west's attitude towards them and the LGBT community at large. Feel free to disregard my opinions as being selfish and uninformed.

EDIT: Gah, typos.

Edited by Blasied
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A problem with characters that aren't all the same sexuality is if they do something like Awakening. Either you'll have the one gay character alone or with very few options, or everyone just happens to be bi. However, the same issue will probably occur with limited supports anyway. Odds are there will only be a few if any potential options, and who's to say they're even appropriate for that character? A gay character would probably be one who doesn't even have any romances because there simply aren't any other gays or gay people that meet their tastes. I'd rather not see some character shoehorned in just to meet a politically correct quota. I'll trust the writers to create a quality product regardless of the orientations of the characters.

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