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Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?


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Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?  

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  1. 1. Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?

    • Yes, I would like to see - or wouldn't mind - LGBT characters in "Fire Emblem: If"
      364
    • No, I would not like to see - or would mind - LGBT characters in "Fire Emblem: If"
      87


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The increase in stats stops after A support, so you don't lose stats by not having an S support.

Yes, but your stats are limited by the fact that your supports are hurting someone else. Pair ups like that hurt 2-3 potential units, not just 1. Rolling with my example still, If Robin supports with Gaius for an A support, he'll leave Gaius for Basilio when he joins. Gaius will now lose that stats that Robin provided him and vice versa. Gaius will either now have to be dropped, or find someone else.

Yeah you miss out on a child, but what can you do about that, really? Not being able to produce a child in a homosexual relationship is just a fact of life and isn't anyone's fault. The game could offer a solution to that by including an adoption mechanic, but it would probably have to work in a similar way to the replacement children in FE4 where they are inferior in some way to the regular children, otherwise there would be no incentive to acquire children in the usual way.

I never said it was anyone's fault. But from a gameplay perspective, it's still bad. You'd only want adopted children to see what they were like, but from a pure gameplay perspective, they'd be bad. And more specifically, only obtainable if you were gay and/or unpaired. Which doesn't seem very good.

Not sure what you meant by the comment about starting back over to no support. If your ideal partner is available early, you build up supports with him just as you would build up supports with a female. If he is available late like Basilio, this is no different than if you wanted to marry a female that comes late such as Flavia. You have to make do with somebody else in the meantime.

That's a standard problem with Awakening's support system in general. This isn't like Fire Emblem GBAs where you had 5 supports total that you could use in anyway you chose, so when you start over, you effectively "lose" the support when you pair up with someone else. Yes, it's the same problem that happens if you choose to support with someone late game, but there's a reason that people normally don't unless they are more concerned about supports than actual gameplay benefits. With a gay/lesbian Robin, the problem is even worse than it is when you are heterosexual by virtue that there are far less choices.

I know that the male/female example has nothing to do with homosexuality. I only brought it up in response to your claim that it isn't fair to be excluded from certain gameplay advantages because you chose to design your avatar a certain way.

Sure, and it really isn't fair if the advantages/disadvantages aren't equal. Just because it's already done doesn't mean that it's not fair.

So we probably agree that there are some things, such as not having a child, that are inherent disadvantages from a gameplay mechanic perspective that comes with playing as a homosexual avatar. If IS does decide to include homosexual characters in the next game (which I have no problem with, in case my post is coming off otherwise), what do you propose they do to address the gameplay-related discrepancies? I personally don't think they should have to resort to doing things like make 50% of the cast gay/bi, since that will break suspension of disbelief for a lot of people. If a player chooses to make a homosexual avatar, they should accept that they might not get certain perks that hetero couples have access to. IS could include bonuses solely available to homo couples if they feel they need to compensate somehow, but they should make some sort of sense and not be something that "they felt compelled to do for the sake of equality".

We do. I think the best idea would be they'd have to roll it back to the older support system styles. As Awakening's support system is a giant funnel that encourages shacking up early and as quickly as possible.
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I personally wouldn't mind LGBT-supports in FE,the only thing that I'd fear is that some people are going to rage about it,either because they disapprove or because they think the character is mocking homosexuals(even if thats not the case),but that shouldn't stop them.

However I doubt that they'll introduce homosexual characters in IF,I mean if marriage returns,then he/she would most likely have very few options,which gets even worse,since the cast is split between the 2 nations and having homosexual characters on one side,but not on the other would also throw in some unfortunate implications.

A few Bisexual characters could be a workaround for this though and would be at least a step into the right direction(making everyone bisexual could also be an option,but that would simply appear forced),but yeah I kinda still doubt it.

Edited by BlueLore
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What. LGBT peolpe exist, we're not some tumblr fad. Protecting the feelings of homophobes is not as important as treating LGBT people with respect. They don't have to romance him.

You're missing the point entirely. Marketing isn't about social justice (although it can bring social justice to appease customers), it's about what the majority of customers want - cash is all that matters. If the majority is straight, and My Unit is supposed to represent people who play the game, then -naturally- My Unit will reflect said majority, since it fits with what most of their customers identify with. If most people are uncomfortable with gay characters romancing their Units (I mean MU) in ordinary supports, it shouldn't be implemented.

And, by the way, not all people who dislike gay pairings are homophobes. Just to make it clear.

That said, they could maybe include an optional romantic S support with same sex characters where you'd decide if your Unit is gay or not, instead of pushing for romance in ordinary supports when I explicitely don't (or do) want my char to be gay. That way everyone is happy.

Edited by Rapier
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You obviously wouldn't be forced into romancing the units or at least no more than you would accidentally s supporting a character of the opposite gender in Awakening. And if you dislike ALL gay pairings simply because they're gay, yea your probably a homophobic (which most straight people aren't btw).

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Yea i don't see how you would be forced into it, though I think he might be referring to a LGB character being/ or being seen as attracted to your Character before S/A/Max support rank. For me I am a stickler for Canon or at least near canon, and most same sex pairings in media i enjoy don't fit that, So i welcome Canon LGB characters for that, as well as for Representation purposes.

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I sort of feel like there's a bit of a precedent with FE having gay characters. The only thing stopping it in FE 13 was the dating sim system, but that'll probably not be as focused on anyways since we do have canon sibling in this. It's not a stretch for people not to be able to romance someone of the opposite gender or 2.

Also, just making sure at least one person has made a fire emblem gayden joke. I'll be disappointed if no one has after 16 pages.

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As long as Cyrus and Male Kamui can get together I'll be happy, though if it turns out there aren't any LGBT supports well... I'll be a bit disappointed. Not upset as I've grown used to such supports not being included within Fire Emblem games, despite being heavily implied with some character pairings, but definitely disappointed.

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You obviously wouldn't be forced into romancing the units or at least no more than you would accidentally s supporting a character of the opposite gender in Awakening. And if you dislike ALL gay pairings simply because they're gay, yea your probably a homophobic (which most straight people aren't btw).

That's what I mean. Restrict romance to optional S supports, the rest of the supports should be about friendship only. So, no implying my char is in love with x char unless I want it by doing a S support. If that's done then I'm fine with it.

Now, regarding homophoby, I am curious. Suppose a person doesn't see homossexuality with good eyes, but have no issues whatsoever with gay people. Are they homophobes? Because I know people like that, they're willing to treat gays with respect even if they dislike their sexual orientation for whatever reason. From what I know, a homophobe is someone aversed to gay people, and not to homossexuality alone.

Edited by Rapier
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That's what I mean. Restrict romance to optional S supports, the rest of the supports should be about friendship only. So, no implying my char is in love with x char unless I want it by doing a S support. If that's done then I'm fine with it.

Now, regarding homophoby, I am curious. Suppose a person doesn't see homossexuality with good eyes, but have no issues whatsoever with gay people. Are they homophobes? Because I know people like that, they're willing to treat gays with respect even if they dislike their sexual orientation for whatever reason. From what I know, a homophobe is someone aversed to gay people, and not to homossexuality alone.

If somebody doesn't like the fact that somebody is gay, they are a homophobe.

Edited by zerosabers
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That's what I mean. Restrict romance to optional S supports, the rest of the supports should be about friendship only. So, no implying my char is in love with x char unless I want it by doing a S support. If that's done then I'm fine with it.

isn't that how it always was, at least with Awakening? no one actually confessed their love until S-Support and you basically got to choose who loved who

If somebody doesn't like the fact that somebody is gay, they are a homophobe.

i think I'd have to agree.

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.

Now, regarding homophoby, I am curious. Suppose a person doesn't see homossexuality with good eyes, but have no issues whatsoever with gay people. Are they homophobes? Because I know people like that, they're willing to treat gays with respect even if they dislike their sexual orientation for whatever reason. From what I know, a homophobe is someone aversed to gay people, and not to homossexuality alone.

Hmm, I think Rapier meant people who dislike homosexuality itself, not the person who is a homosexual. If that's the case, I don't think they're a homophobe. If they respect gay people and have no problem around then I will say they aren't. I don't like my friend's obsession with some pop artists and I wish he didn't like one in particular but that doesn't mean I have a problem with the person liking it who is a close buddy of mine.

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.

Hmm, I think Rapier meant people who dislike homosexuality itself, not the person who is a homosexual. If that's the case, I don't think they're a homophobe. If they respect gay people and have no problem around then I will say they aren't. I don't like my friend's obsession with some pop artists and I wish he didn't like one in particular but that doesn't mean I have a problem with the person liking it who is a close buddy of mine.

They still have a problem with them being gay. You don't have to hate a person to hate one part of them, and if you happen to hate the fact that they're gay then you are a homophobe.

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Yeah, same. Not to jump on that statement, but I don't understand how disliking homosexuality can be reconciled with having nothing against gays themselves. Yeah, you have nothing against gays, you know, aside from that whole "they're gay" thing. Honestly, as a straight guy, what is there to dislike?

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^ so somebody choosing to like a pop artist is equivalent to somebodies sexual orientation?

Let's take another example, then. A sexual orientation is just a trait, right? Can't we imagine someone who has a trait we don't like, but we still respect and get along with them well without hating them? I think it is possible.

Raguna's right about what I meant (was my wording bad?).

isn't that how it always was, at least with Awakening? no one actually confessed their love until S-Support and you basically got to choose who loved who

I recall there were supports pre Awakening where there was implied romance between characters in their Supports. But yeah, a model like Awakening is fine.

Edited by Rapier
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Let's take another example, then. A sexual orientation is just a trait, right? Can't we imagine someone who has a trait we don't like, but we still respect and get along with them well without hating them? I think it is possible.

Raguna's right about what I meant (was my wording bad?).

I recall there were supports pre Awakening where there was implied romance between characters in their Supports. But yeah, a model like Awakening is fine.

The word homophobic inherently means being averse to homosexuality. In some contexts that meaning is extended to disliking the homosexual people themselves; this is the definition that you're trying to disconnect from, correct? The people you mentioned would not fall into this second category, but they still are by definition homophobes, whether they intend to be or not.

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I was just stating an example, I'm sure the LGBT issue is way more important than that, I was not trying to make light of the issue I was just making a comparison people here have likely dealt with. But what then, are you saying people who dislike homosexuality but not the people themselves are in the same category as the ones that care and try their damn best to beat you or tell you you're lying to yourself because they don't like it? They're not trying to change you in any way and aren't so averse to homosexuality as to make you change.

I just don't think it warrants being called a homophobe if there is still respect between the one who dislikes homosexuality and the homosexuals he meets.

Edited by Raguna
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It depends on your definition of homophobe and I would say that what rapier is saying is not quite a intense (irrational) fear or hatred of homosexuality/homosexual people but I would say there is a much better case for a dislike/distaste of homosexuality/homosexual people which i would say is also a viable definition.

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That respect is lost when the person has an issue with something so inconsequential, yet also innate to the person they presume to respect. "Yeah, I don't like that you're black, but I have respect for you as a black person." The correct response would be, "Go fuck yourself". It doesn't matter what level you are on on the homophobe-o-meter, that person is still homophobic.

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I remember hearing something like that, "don't condone the action [of homosexual love] but accept the person," while in early elementary school. I parroted it back to somebody else, who then asked "why?" Realized I hadn't thought about it and didn't have any reason to think it a problem.

It's just a weird thing to say, I think. Sexual orientation isn't like a genre of music, or political stance, it's part of how a person is wired,. Would somebody who "doesn't like" the orientation then dislike the feeling of sexual/romantic attraction? That would beg the question of what makes them dislike homosexuality and no other orientation. Do they dislike the idea of homosexual couples receiving acceptance socially and legally etc? Exactly what negative/ undesireable-to-them consequences do they think that'll bring, then?

It evokes the suspicion for me that maybe they just think gay sex and expressions of affection between gay partners are icky.

Edited by Rehab
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The people you mentioned would not fall into this second category, but they still are by definition homophobes, whether they intend to be or not.

That respect is lost when the person has an issue with something so inconsequential, yet also innate to the person they presume to respect. "Yeah, I don't like that you're black, but I have respect for you as a black person." The correct response would be, "Go fuck yourself". It doesn't matter what level you are on on the homophobe-o-meter, that person is still homophobic.

It brings a strange moral double standard regarding the term, though. Because persecuting and excluding gay people and all that crap is morally wrong, but disliking a trait is not.

I guess I'll stop here before we derail the thread any further. Man, it's funny how I do so inconsciously with a side commentary that develops into a snow ball.

@Rehab

I can understand this kind of aversion comes from sociological or biological influences that the individual has no control about. Some people are naturally averse to watching same-sex people caressing in public (I dislike both same-sex and heteros doing so in public, but I digress). Others just see this as strange because it is rarely seen, and surprise kicks in a bad way.

Still, even without being able to answer why, should these people be also accounted badly because they dislike a trait? Comparing someone who dislikes homossexuality with someone who persecutes gay people is a tad absurd.

Edited by Rapier
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The problem with topics like these is it eventually boils down to:

"Do you support homosexuality? Yes? Great! No? You're a bad person and should change your way of thinking."

It's not much of a discussion when you must support a position, lest you be ridiculed and denounced.

People can like or not like whatever they want, and if you aren't being a dick about it, who cares?

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People can like or not like whatever they want, and if you aren't being a dick about it, who cares?

^I agree with this wholeheartedly, people have different views for a multitude of reasons, and as long as those views aren't harming/attacking anyone then it shouldn't be warranted as an issue. I was gonna type a long paragraph addressing this in a more adequate way but we've already derailed the topic long enough, so let's get back to the matter at hand shall we?

Personally I don't see too much of a reason for there to not be any LGBT Supports included from a gameplay perspective as the whole child mechanic was only a thing in Awakening due to time travel shenanigans, and while I don't know how the story unfolds in this new Fire Emblem I don't think there'll be any kind of time travel involved or any major time skips that would allow for your children to fight with you.

Honestly I hope romance is handled more like how it was in previous games where there was only a select few people for certain characters who they could support and then at the end of the game the credits would state that they got married. You could still have like a confession scene and everything of course, just the whole 'couple getting married' thing would wait until the end. I want more supports involving actual bonding between people as friends and to show more individual character rather then all that lovey-dovey junk, which should be reserved for only once you hit S-rank with someone. I think it would make the supports a lot more meaningful and add more depth to the characters themselves, help get you more attached to them and such. Not to mention it would make things a lot less awkward if you supported with anyone after already having an S-rank with someone else.

Edited by Kyza
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