Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?

[Celestial Cookie]

Is your idea of picking and choosing their sexuality not the same as everyone being bi?

I only suggested it because when someone said "make everyone bi" earlier, a bunch of people got offended and there was general disapproval of the idea. While yes it is the same in execution, apparently it's the labels that matter. Making everyone bi would be the most effective solution, but that upset quite a few people when it was suggested a while ago. I'm too lazy to find the exact quotes, but the whole "making everyone bi" thing was shot down almost immediately.

(EDIT: Misread the post, changed my reply accordingly. Sorry about that.)

Edited June 9, 2015 by Celestial Cookie

[BRSxIgnition]

Having any control over who is attracted to what gender is the same as making everyone bi, and is pandering. Some people just wont be interested in you, people have to deal with that.

Kamui can be programatically Bisexual - that makes sense because it allows the player to decide who they go for and end up with. However, making the entire cast romanceable by a same sex Kamui is not fair, not realistic, and not respectful. People don't suddenly change their sexuality for anyone, that's not how sexuality works.

[Tryhard]

Having any control over who is attracted to what gender is the same as making everyone bi, and is pandering.

Either way, some people are going to perceive the game as pandering, no? The only winning move is not to play, unfortunately.

It may not be realistic, and it may not be how sexuality works, but this is a game and it's far beyond trying to be realistic already. That goes also for those that do state how low the LGBT members would be in the cast if it were to abide by realistic standards, but the programmers can do whatever the fuck they want. Whatever you attempt to do in this situtation, there will be people that are pissed off at the result. Maybe a LGBT person resonates with a character they identify with, and maybe another completely hates them and finds them disrespectful and offensive, or for every character being bi like you said while someone else doesn't care.

All I can say is don't be upset when it doesn't happen, because as I see it it has a high chance of not happening. Personally I have not voted in this poll because while I think it would be cool to see I cannot push it so much.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Tryhard

[sacredenigma]

I support it and hope there are some LGBT supports tbh

[NekoKnight]

A part of me hopes that romance options between characters will be very limited so we can go back to appreciating characters as people and not targets of the player's desire. We've had supports for a long time but it was only Awakening that made pairing up characters romantically such a big deal (I know it was in FE4 but Awakening made it popular). You make a self-insert Avatar, throw in breeding children as a game mechanic and suddenly Fire Emblem is a dating simulator that MUST cater to all tastes.

[BlueL]

Now we can compare racism to homophobia to incestism (I'll use the word as being against incest for ease of discussion). Racism is abhorrent because it discriminates against someone for something they cannot control, with no non-stereotypical justification for it, typically. With homophobia he same is true, but there is a slight change, a homophonic relationship cannot lead to children by normal means, hence a traditionalist or religious view of relationships can be held against it. The development of technology and social methods for having a child however, means that such an opinion cannot be justified for a general basis, without forcing your opinion on someone else however, such that tolerance should be applied - though I do not wish to argue on whether it's morally acceptable to hold such an opinion. Here's the interesting bit. Let's jump to incest. Considering things rationally I'll ignore social stigma as justification for incestism, and just go for the biological point of view, genes. Off the top of my head, incestual childbirth messes up genes somewhat, hence there is a significant biological risk to an unborn, unchoosing child. So it seems acceptable to justify incestism opinions being forces onto another through legislation, as the relationship negatively affects other people (and not through offense). However, not all relationships lead to children. As the crux of this argument depends on a child, thinking purely rationally incest ahould be acceptable as long as no children are produced.

There's also the fact, speaking strictly about marriages between first cousins, I saw a study saying the defect rate of children born among first cousins is only 4%, about double the rate of the general population, while incest among first degree relatives is closer to 50%. So setting aside social taboos, shouldn't incest between first-cousins or step siblings be allowed in FEif if they allow homosexuality? I hope that's not somehow offensive.

(I'm just making an argument, I'm not advocating for Kamui being able to romance his siblings).

Edited June 9, 2015 by BlueL

[Mad_Scientist]

Cousin marriage is legal in a lot of states too actually, and Fire Emblem Awakening did have the ability for Lucina to marry her cousin Owain. However, the US version slightly altered the S support and changed their S-support status to "companion" to make it more vauge.

Regarding incest between step siblings, I myself think it should be perfectly legal if they're both consenting adults, but, that doesn't mean it's not still super creepy to me if they were raised as siblings. Which is what was apparently the case of Kamui and their siblings. They were raised in Nohr and view the Nohr family as brothers and sisters, so I can't imagine NoA letting that come to the US unaltered if by some chance the JPN version allows Kamui to marry their Nohr family.

[Pacack]

Since the "Companion" thing was brought up, maybe we can have same sex relationships be listed as companions as well? I imagine that that would save face on a lot of things.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

Either way, some people are going to perceive the game as pandering, no? The only winning move is not to play, unfortunately.

I once again open my stance that NO support conversations exist.

Make up your own back stories - you can still have stat boosts between any character you want (expand on RD's system) so you can still have affinity strategy. But with no 'canon' character personality (because there is none, and after the first playthrough doesn't matter), you can make the characters as gay or not gay as you want them to be.

Imagine, Kamui's gay liberation force of Nohr! You'll never get it, but if the army is loosely defined in game you can make your army a bunch of squirrels in human-esque mechs if you want to.

Supports had a place in past games, but if no one is going to be happy with them, the only way to win is not to play.

[Ghetsis]

I'm not reading most of these comments....

They seem to be pushing the idea of same sex relationships ,and it's been confirmed that everyone's face can be rubbed I think. If they don't include it that'll be worse baiting than awakening.

Since the "Companion" thing was brought up, maybe we can have same sex relationships be listed as companions as well? I imagine that that would save face on a lot of things.

That would just promote straight as the norm and gay relationships as different, inferior and like not actually romantic or true, it would also be queerbaiting.... Don't compare gay/bi/pan/whatever relationships to incest also....

[Iron Griffin]

Well I guess I throw in a couple of cents into this.

First off in the Romance thread I said that I think its very unlikely that we will get any sort of romance like we did in Awakening. Its possible that certain characters could end up together at the end of their supports. I'm sure the Avatar can chat everyone up but I seriously doubt it will go beyond that.

Things like this are nowhere near as important as a well made and balanced game with a strong story and well written characters. Those are the things we should be more concerned about.

Its already gotten weird with the baths and the face rubbing stuff(Seriously WTF?). The fanservice is really getting out of hand so far.

[Pretty_Handsome]

Yes.

Even though I'm straight I'm also a completionist so I would still view the supports and who knows... Maybe they'll be as good as Ike x Soren.

Well I guess I throw in a couple of cents into this.

First off in the Romance thread I said that I think its very unlikely that we will get any sort of romance like we did in Awakening. Its possible that certain characters could end up together at the end of their supports. I'm sure the Avatar can chat everyone up but I seriously doubt it will go beyond that.

Things like this are nowhere near as important as a well made and balanced game with a strong story and well written characters. Those are the things we should be more concerned about.

Its already gotten weird with the baths and the face rubbing stuff(Seriously WTF?). The fanservice is really getting out of hand so far.

Awakening sold well because of many things including the waifus/husbandos. It makes no sense to cut such a very popular feature.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Pretty_Handsome

[Iron Griffin]

That feature was because of the inheritance system Awakening had going. There is no real reason why we need this marriage system without a good reason for it just having it there for the sake of having it is just pandering.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Iron Griffin

[messier]

Absolutely. A greater amount of meaningful diversity is wonderful in and of itself. That is, fleshing out the characters to be actual people rather than those that may be defined by singular traits alone.

[electricwolf]

I once again open my stance that NO support conversations exist.

No support conversations?

Remember how well the generic supports in Radiant Dawn were received?

[nemissa]

I'm not reading most of these comments....

They seem to be pushing the idea of same sex relationships ,and it's been confirmed that everyone's face can be rubbed I think. If they don't include it that'll be worse baiting than awakening.

That would just promote straight as the norm and gay relationships as different, inferior and like not actually romantic or true, it would also be queerbaiting.... Don't compare gay/bi/pan/whatever relationships to incest also....

This is, like, the only reasonable comment in this entire thread. and yes i made an account just to say that

I mean, adding a same-sex option in a game that at least a few non-straight people will play is pandering but having a cast of about 40-60ish (judging from previous Fire Emblem games) characters where absolutely no one is anything but straight isn't? Incest being more acceptable than gay people? Gay characters need to be "well written" and need a reason to exist, but straight characters can exist without a "good reason" for it? Being against homosexuality is a-OK "as long as you respect gay people" (how does that even work!?)? I thought this was the 21st century, guys!

[StoryWeaverKirea]

People actually brought up religious cures for their reason to be against same sex supports? Really? Its 2015, can the homophobia just disappear plz?

Anyway, I'm definitely all for same sex supports! And even though it wouldn't be realistic I like the idea of everyone being an option for Kamui regardless of gender.

[electricwolf]

I feel at this point that this discussion would have been better served with a poll worded more along the lines of:

Would the inclusion of LGBT+ characters/supports in Fire Emblem: if:

• make you more likely to buy the game
• make you less likely to buy the game
• not influence your decision to buy the game

or:

What is your position on LGBT+ characters/supports in Fire Emblem: if?:

• I am going to buy the game with or without their inclusion
• I planned to buy the game, but the inclusion of LGBT+ characters will make me not buy the game
• I planned to not buy the game, but the inclusion of LGBT+ characters will make me buy the game
• I am not going to buy the game with or without their inclusion

There has been a large enough amount of people in this thread who will likely buy the game regardless of the decision to include LGBT+ characters and supports who are currently represented in the poll under the Yes category. This is not the same viewpoint as actively supporting the allocation of resources towards creating LGBT+ characters and supports, and it is not the same as supporting the current lack of representation of LGBT+ people and relations.

With that question you would also be more likely to see the power of the consumer. And frankly I don't think anyone with any power within the associated companies cares what anyone wants unless it has the potential to affect sales.

[nemissa]

This is not the same viewpoint as actively supporting the allocation of resources towards creating LGBT+ characters and supports

But why would anyone be upset about the allocation of resources towards creating LGBT characters? If I said I'm against IS spending time and money in creating straight characters I'd be seen as a bigot, but straight people can claim that they would rather not see gay characters in their games and that's totally okay because ~freedom of speech~ or whatever? Why is that?

(I know the actual reason: homophobia. But I guess most people don't want to acknowledge it)

[electricwolf]

But why would anyone be upset about the allocation of resources towards creating LGBT characters?

What I am trying to say in the quote you have of mine is that the Fire Emblem series currently has explicit heterosexual characters and character relationships, and if you have enjoyed the heterosexual supports in previous games it is possible that this whole debate will not significantly impact on your opinion to purchase this game. Just because someone does not explicitly campaign for greater representation of LGBT does not mean they support or do not support LGBT.

This thread is a back and forth about this topic and if you come into this thread with an opinion one way or another and are bothered enough to post about it then you're probably leaving with the same opinion you came in with. At this point in the thread I think it might be useful to gauge the actual financial power of this viewpoint to see if Intelligent Systems and Nintendo are actually going to find this relevant.

If you send a link to either of those companies with a thread as full of pedantics and semantics as this, neither of them are likely to care.

However, if you send a link to a thread with a large amount of data about how the inclusion of LGBT might affect the possibility of people buying the game then maybe they might listen.

And if you express the viewpoint that IS should not allocate their resources to creating straight characters then I'd have to respect your right to an opinion, however financially unsound the consequences of that opinion may be.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

No support conversations?

Remember how well the generic supports in Radiant Dawn were received?

And remember how awesome of a Fire Emblem game it was?

[NekoKnight]

And remember how awesome of a Fire Emblem game it was?

Despite the lack of support conversations. I think you are the only person who wants less characterization.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

Despite the lack of support conversations. I think you are the only person who wants less characterization.

Mayhaps.

But again, inserting yourself on all the characters is more possible that way, and solves all these problems.

I'm not against support conversations per-say, but topics like these lead me to believe that the series is really starting to depart from its roots. That's not a bad thing, but the main focus should ALWAYS be over the gameplay, not who supports who and all that junk. Awakening was a support bananza, and we all know how that went down.

For the record, I like Awakening, but it should be the only Fire Emblem game in the series that does what it does. All of the new mechanics are expanded on in IF, and if all this waifu stuff returns there is little that sets Awakening apart as its own experience, other than the poorly written characters.

No support conversations will disappoint everyone, and yet it will disappoint no one, because no one was left unbeaten by the stick - and really, that's the only way to be fair.

[eclipse]

Despite the lack of support conversations. I think you are the only person who wants less characterization.

I'd be fine with it. Shadow Dragon had JUST the right amount of it, IMO - enough where I can draw some inferences, but not so much that it was shoved down my throat. I don't think I could pull off my preferred style writing with Awakening - too much is said about the characters.

[Baldrick]

Why do people on the internet find it difficult to spell per se?

I agree with you, but a minor nitpick; Fire Emblem is not just about the gameplay, for the most part your units all have a unique appearance, personality and motivation.

That said, RD base conversations/SD talk conversations remain the best way to give development to minor characters. It's too much to expect around forty or more interesting character arcs in a medium like this, so the focus should be on quality over quantity.

For the actual topic, I am firmly in the "who really cares about who fictional characters fuck, shipping is not the point of the games" category. Of course, this wouldn't be a problem if not for a small section of the population who insist on forcing their beliefs on others.