Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?

[Nanima]

I did talk briefly about the "phase thing" and how Japan has its own brand of homophobia.

Other than that, I completely agree with you. There is nothing stopping them, and I suspect that none of the developers is really actively homophobic (maybe passively, but I don't know them so I have no idea) but their thought process was probably more like:

People liked Awakening + People liked marriages + People liked kids = Bringing back the kids -> tons of money.

[Florete]

Oh my God, the terrible posts in this thread recently. I would have had a field day if it hadn't been for Mad_Scientist's posts, thank Anna for you. (A few other people contributed, which is good, but the meat of it was Mad_Scientist)

And to the people just complaining that they would be poorly-written: maybe, if it was a gay character for the sake of having one. But with the marriage mechanic, do you really think their gay characters would all be offensive stereotypes when the biggest reason to include them would be allowing people to have their same-gendered avatar marry them? It would kind of defeat the purpose.

And yes, the children mechanic more or less confirms no homosexuality, which is disappointing. Homosexuality or no, though, I'm disappointed that the children mechanic is returning at all.

[Hempmeister69]

I feel as if there could be same sex couples AND children though. I mean the entire Nohr path is about the fact that your influenced more by the family that raised you than biological parents who had no part in your upbringing. And since there would most likely be a limited number of homosexual options for romance, these supports could be very specific to the characters that concern them; possibly being even more well written than the heterosexual ones if done properly.

And on the mechanic as a whole, I just wish they didn't do the whole time travel thing again. Alas, that is a different topic.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Hempmeister69

[Florete]

The existence of the children mechanic certainly doesn't negate the possibility of having same-sex romance, but it's a pretty good indicator that IS most likely isn't going to be so inclusive this time around, either. "Same-sex pairs? But then you can't have children!"

More an excuse than justification, but it is what it is.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire

[mikethepokemaster]

They could of had it like units who got together who were gay they could have a adopted children but those children stats would be I guess inferior compare to the birth children kind of like with Fire Emblem 4 children.

[Baldrick]

Mechanically, it could be possible to have a children characters and same-sex pairings. For example, if every character had a designated child who gained inheritance based on their parent's S-rank supporter, regardless of gender. It doesn't make scientific sense, but neither does time travel or Lucina having the exact same appearance and personality no matter who her mother is.

[Dark Holy Elf]

First of all, I have to say that I love Mad_Scientist's post.

Anyway I don't think children returning necessarily precludes any sort of same-sex supports, though I do think it makes them less likely for reasons said. I'm still hopeful that the pairing possibilities are more limited this time, and with Corrin's siblings likely off limits that doesn't seem an unreasonable guess, and of course that in turn can make same-sex pairings more possible. We'll see in a few days I guess.

[Captain Karnage]

Just to be clear, I am fine with LGBT relationships in being in FE, I just don't want them shoehorned in.

IS will probably let us marry our brothers and sisters in game before they even consider being inclusive

[Rawkstar]

Let me start by saying I fully support LGBT rights

Here's the thing though, I don't really want it to be in Fire Emblem. It's nothing I have against that group of people, I just honestly feel like it would be strange, and a bit different. Plus, certain characters would then have to either be straight or gay, and if fans disagreed with whatever was chosen for that character, it would just make a mess and start arguments. And obviously they aren't going to make every character bisexual, so I think it's safer to just leave everyone straight. I wouldn't mind a per-determined gay pairing, like if two characters were introduced in the same chapter and were gay, but the ability for gay supports just seems...odd to me. With that said, I would love to see S-supports come back for everyone. Remember when you could get Joshua and Gerik to the highest support level? or Eirika and Tana? There was nothing sexual or intimate about it, just friendly. I wouldn't mind seeing those types of endings coming back, for people of the same and different genders. With fictional characters and so many options though, I think it's more risky than rewarding to have gay supports in the game. Though I'd love to be proven wrong.

[raazychx]

Let me start by saying I fully support LGBT rights

Here's the thing though, I don't really want it to be in Fire Emblem. It's nothing I have against that group of people, I just honestly feel like it would be strange, and a bit different. Plus, certain characters would then have to either be straight or gay, and if fans disagreed with whatever was chosen for that character, it would just make a mess and start arguments. And obviously they aren't going to make every character bisexual, so I think it's safer to just leave everyone straight. I wouldn't mind a per-determined gay pairing, like if two characters were introduced in the same chapter and were gay, but the ability for gay supports just seems...odd to me. With that said, I would love to see S-supports come back for everyone. Remember when you could get Joshua and Gerik to the highest support level? or Eirika and Tana? There was nothing sexual or intimate about it, just friendly. I wouldn't mind seeing those types of endings coming back, for people of the same and different genders. With fictional characters and so many options though, I think it's more risky than rewarding to have gay supports in the game. Though I'd love to be proven wrong.

It's 2015. Nobody really gives a **** anymore...

[Tryhard]

Plus, certain characters would then have to either be straight or gay, and if fans disagreed with whatever was chosen for that character, it would just make a mess and start arguments.

Dude, people literally already argue over the straight pairings. This is not a good reason, because there is going to be arguments no matter what.

[Baldrick]

Hell, people already argue about Ike's sexuality.

[BlackMageVi]

This just in: Homosexual relationships are risky. They'll break your knees and steal your lunch money. Beware of their power. Hide your waifus and husbandos lest they be consumed by the gay agenda!

Really though, I'll turn in my grave before Nintendo treats the LGBT community like people instead of one massive joke. Unfortunate but true. As many people have addressed already, Japan in general is pretty homphobic. I was holding out hope they might go for it after the backlash they got over something as simple as Tomodachi life. Hopefully it's still a possibility but it's looking like a no go.

[Awakener_]

God, I am more annoyed by the constant whining than whole LGBT in game thing and then peoples started to post those mopey ass posts about hiding and crap (I can also write a essay of having to hiding myself because of a choice I made as well and that choice will be even weirder than loving someone of same sex to the eyes of a lot of people.). Just friggin wait, there will be same sex marriage eventually in the game. Hell the only game in my life that I played that has a Chinese protagonist is GTA ChinaTown War and I'm sure LGBT representation in gaming alone already surpassed that of my race representation in all media combined even if we are around the same population size here in the state. I also have to give props to mods for not censoring or deleting anything when many other forum's mods will already started deleting.

[sforzur]

Let me start by saying I fully support LGBT rights

Here's the thing though, I don't really want it to be in Fire Emblem. It's nothing I have against that group of people, I just honestly feel like it would be strange, and a bit different. Plus, certain characters would then have to either be straight or gay, and if fans disagreed with whatever was chosen for that character, it would just make a mess and start arguments. And obviously they aren't going to make every character bisexual, so I think it's safer to just leave everyone straight.

"I support LGBT rights, but I don't want to have actual LGBT characters in my video games because it would make me uncomfortable." is what this reads as.

A main goal of representation is to normalize something that is a minority -- so that it is no longer viewed as "strange" or "different". Most people don't bat an eyelash over a female character being casted in show X or show Y these days, right? It's because we've grown accustomed to it; it's what we're used to seeing. In fifty years from now, people should hopefully be able to turn on whatever the predecessor of television is and find LGBT characters on any channel, and no one will say anything because that's just how it has always been for them. Maintaining an entirely heterosexual roster is not "safe", but stagnant. We won't progress by refusing to change something out of fear, and what every series needs to do to stay alive is adapt to the ever-moving society; Fire Emblem is no exception.

Shingeki no Kyoujin/Attack on Titan contains canon lesbians and a (potentially?) non-binary character. Tokyo Ghoul has trans, gay, and asexual characters. Sailor Moon -- a series twenty years old -- also has a canon lesbian couple. None of this has prevented any of these series from becoming profitable enough to spawn dozens of adaptations and merchandise; SnK has been huge over there since the anime first premiered. While these are easily the most notable and popular examples that a fair portion of the general public can identify, they certainly aren't the only examples. There's also Psycho Pass (a title with two seasons, a movie, a manga, novels, and a game), which features a canon bisexual woman involved in a relationship with another girl, etc. etc.

Anyway, Shibuya -- a district in Tokyo -- recognises same-sex partnerships, which is a step in the right direction. Transgender students are permitted to wear the uniform of the gender they identify with and use the corresponding locker room. Shintoism, the main religion of Japan, does not oppose homosexuality. They also host their own pride events. While Japan is still strides behind the western world and heavily homophobic in its own regards (what with the risk of losing your job, violence, alienation, humiliation...), they are attempting to catch up. We can't -- and don't -- expect them to write a whole bunch of incredibly realistic or trope-free LGBT characters just yet, nor are we asking for anything as inclusive as Bioware's games, but there's no reason for them not to be making even the smallest attempts in 2015, though it seems FE14 already failed at it.

Just as it is in North America and Europe, most of the opposers of same-sex relationships are older and thus wouldn't even be included in the target audience of most video games. The numbers in the articles fluctuate on the source, but acceptance on an overall scale seems to be around 48-60%, while results from those under 30 stay between 70-75%.

[Rawkstar]

"I support LGBT rights, but I don't want to have actual LGBT characters in my video games because it would make me uncomfortable." is what this reads as.

A main goal of representation is to normalize something that is a minority -- so that it is no longer viewed as "strange" or "different". Most people don't bat an eyelash over a female character being casted in show X or show Y these days, right? It's because we've grown accustomed to it; it's what we're used to seeing. In fifty years from now, people should hopefully be able to turn on whatever the predecessor of television is and find LGBT characters on any channel, and no one will say anything because that's just how it has always been for them. Maintaining an entirely heterosexual roster is not "safe", but stagnant. We won't progress by refusing to change something out of fear, and what every series needs to do to stay alive is adapt to the ever-moving society; Fire Emblem is no exception.

Shingeki no Kyoujin/Attack on Titan contains canon lesbians and a (potentially?) non-binary character. Tokyo Ghoul has trans, gay, and asexual characters. Sailor Moon -- a series twenty years old -- also has a canon lesbian couple. None of this has prevented any of these series from becoming profitable enough to spawn dozens of adaptations and merchandise; SnK has been huge over there since the anime first premiered. While these are easily the most notable and popular examples that a fair portion of the general public can identify, they certainly aren't the only examples. There's also Psycho Pass (a title with two seasons, a movie, a manga, novels, and a game), which features a canon bisexual woman involved in a relationship with another girl, etc. etc.

Anyway, Shibuya -- a district in Tokyo -- recognises same-sex partnerships, which is a step in the right direction. Transgender students are permitted to wear the uniform of the gender they identify with and use the corresponding locker room. Shintoism, the main religion of Japan, does not oppose homosexuality. They also host their own pride events. While Japan is still strides behind the western world and heavily homophobic in its own regards (what with the risk of losing your job, violence, alienation, humiliation...), they are attempting to catch up. We can't -- and don't -- expect them to write a whole bunch of incredibly realistic or trope-free LGBT characters just yet, nor are we asking for anything as inclusive as Bioware's games, but there's no reason for them not to be making even the smallest attempts in 2015, though it seems FE14 already failed at it.

Just as it is in North America and Europe, most of the opposers of same-sex relationships are older and thus wouldn't even be included in the target audience of most video games. The numbers in the articles fluctuate on the source, but acceptance on an overall scale seems to be around 48-60%, while results from those under 30 stay between 70-75%.

I have no problem seeing LGBT characters in movies, TV shows, books, or most other video games. It's not the LGBT aspect itself, it's how it would be incorporated into the Fire Emblem support system. And I never said that it made me uncomfortable. DO NOT twist my words. What makes Fire Emblem so much different from all of these is that the player decides each and every pairing. In most movies, Tv shows, books, etc. the characters start at point A, and end up in point B. You can't change that. Watch the same movie 10 times and the outcome will be the same every single time. But play through any version of Fire Emblem 10 times, and each time, the pairing of specific units can be completely different with each play through. Characters start at point A, but can end up at point B, C, D, etc.

My problem is not the inclusion of the gays, it's the way they would be incorporated. You can't have every character as a bi-sexual, and you can't have everyone gay....so how do you decide which units end up with which sexuality? It's just too complicated. Lets say this game had gay characters. Hell, let's say that Ryouma was a gay character as an example. Do you know how many people would want him to be straight? But if he was straight, and there were other gay characters, then several people would be upset that he wasn't gay. It would be like this for literally every character in the game. For right now, I think it's better just to make everyone straight, with people wishing that they were gay, instead of people wishing that certain gays were straight AND certain straight people were gay. Less problems, less disappointed fans.

I find it extremely disrespectful the responses I'm seeing from some of the posters in this thread. Just because some of us are okay with non-gay supports doesn't mean that we have anything against the LGBT community. If they added gays into Fire Emblem, I wouldn't care, but until then I'm perfectly happy with traditional supports. It's getting annoying seeing no one respecting each others' opinions. At the end of the day, my opinion, your opinion, and the next guys opinion really all mean the same thing: nothing. So stop arguing.

[GekoHayate]

Shingeki no Kyoujin/Attack on Titan contains canon lesbians and a (potentially?) non-binary character. Tokyo Ghoul has trans, gay, and asexual characters. Sailor Moon -- a series twenty years old -- also has a canon lesbian couple. None of this has prevented any of these series from becoming profitable enough to spawn dozens of adaptations and merchandise; SnK has been huge over there since the anime first premiered. While these are easily the most notable and popular examples that a fair portion of the general public can identify, they certainly aren't the only examples. There's also Psycho Pass (a title with two seasons, a movie, a manga, novels, and a game), which features a canon bisexual woman involved in a relationship with another girl, etc. etc.

The difference being, Fire Emblem gives the player (some) control whereas animation as a medium has virtually no viewer interaction. Adrienne Shaw (Activist for diversity in gaming) conducted a study and hilariosuly enough came to the conclusion that there was very little difference in enjoyment between playing as a character you identify with than a character of a different race, gender, orientation what have you.

Unfortunately for her she was trying to provide evidence for inclusion based on a demand by gamers, she had to refocus her efforts on molding the industry instead.

Unless there was investment by the player in building a created character's backstory, most players will tend to gravitate towards actual gameplay factors rather than self-identifying characteristics when selecting a player character if given the choice. Falco was one of the most used Brawl characters because his speed and moves confer a greater chance of victory and not because there is an overwhelming group of self-identifying birdkin excersing an inclusive character option.

How much work is IS willing to put into the game to specifically cater to roughly 3% of the population (at least in the US, which isn't their primary market; maybe demographics from Japan differ in favor) and how many of that 3% are gamers who would buy Fire Emblem:Fate in the first place? I'd rather that portion of the budget allocated for inclusive elements to be put to use servicing a broader section of the potential consumer base. Something the fans really want.

Something like... face rubbing

Edited June 20, 2015 by GekoHayate

[Baldrick]

You can't have every character as a bi-sexual,

Why not?

[FutureKnightX]

I really wish I had the time and energy to go through all of this topic, but I read the first and last pages and if it's like those, then I don't think I'll even bother since I've heard a lot of this stuff before.

Without a doubt, incorporating LGBT characters into a game like this would require effort and even then, you risk angering the fanbase. There will be people out there who would get mad if you so much as imply same-sex relationships in a game and there will be those who will get irritated at the sight of a muscular bearded man with thick makeup on in a spaghetti strap dress speaking with a lisp. It would just be safer to not include them at all, especially since it's doubtful many fans would be added by doing the inclusion, anyways. And since support works like how it does in Awakening, it would get really, really complicated.

But that's lame. Lame, lame, lame. It's also how you won't get any progress done. Playing it safe just makes it boring. It also makes it more unrealistic. This game is bound to have more characters than any other FE game to date and there will be no LGBT people? Kinda implies that the world would be less complicated, easier, and better off if they didn't exist too. I understand that isn't the intent, but it's there. "I'm gonna make a world where I govern how everyone is! And you know what? I think we will be better off if LGBT isn't even an aspect of this world!"

What makes this even worse is the fact that romance is a big option in the game. There will be many hetero pairings and no homo pairings at all. It gets really in your face. And having a character representing yourself in the game isn't exactly accurate if your representative cannot have your sexuality as an option. It's funny, but many western games with a romance option for an avatar character include gay options and almost no one bats an eye and yet this isn't the case for Japanese games.

I wanna be a guy who romances guys. I want my representative to actually represent myself. It really isn't that difficult.

Edited June 20, 2015 by FutureKnightX

[Nanima]

For everyone who thinks that there will be so many upset people all complaining about same sex pairings look above. See that poll? This is the reality, most people here want to or would be fine with such an option.

when they spent so much money to create so many different features, many of them designed to only cater to a small part of the fanbase (skinshipping) why not include this. It can't be as much work as some are making it out to be, when they are literally including children that will have almost no bearing on the plot to please a certain part of the fanbase.

Why not please us for a change? I am sure there are also japanese LGBT members who would love to have the option and want to be represented.

Also, Awakener you seem to be claiming to speak for minority groups as a whole, saying we have no right to complain because you personally don't care. Did I get it right? Good for you if you don't need representation for yourself, but please stop mocking those who feel like they do. Can't we be respectful of each other?

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

For everyone who thinks that there will be so many upset people all complaining about same sex pairings look above. See that poll? This is the reality, most people here want to or would be fine with such an option.

Well, Serenes Forest's Forums would like to have them, or have a positive "wouldn't mind". We don't know about the other potential customers of the game though.

And it does bother me that there is no true middle "don't really care" option, because it's how I really feel in the end, despite the fact that I'd rather not see it because I don't want more backlash.

Also skinshipping is made no please no small part of the fanbase. I've yet to see a negative reaction for it from Japan, and people outside of Serenes or places like NeoGaf love it too. Many, many casuals also loved children and I see why IS brought them back, even if I personally am not happy about it.

What I find weird is that you can have skinship with people of your gender and it leads to no romance :/ it's stupid. I guess it was done to have another way to make supports grow faster.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

For everyone who thinks that there will be so many upset people all complaining about same sex pairings look above. See that poll?

To be fair, only less than 400 people voted for 'this' (Is there any more?) poll. Fire Emblem fanbase is bigger as you know, so you might not know if the fandom is either rooting, against, or just not giving a damn.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Great Geargia Gateway

[Nanima]

Yes, I realize that this poll isn't exactly what you'd call representative, but it''s an indicator at least. Society has come a long way. I would be very surprised if the people actively against gay marriage were in the majority.

[sforzur]

I have no problem seeing LGBT characters in movies, TV shows, books, or most other video games. It's not the LGBT aspect itself, it's how it would be incorporated into the Fire Emblem support system. And I never said that it made me uncomfortable. DO NOT twist my words. What makes Fire Emblem so much different from all of these is that the player decides each and every pairing. In most movies, Tv shows, books, etc. the characters start at point A, and end up in point B. You can't change that. Watch the same movie 10 times and the outcome will be the same every single time. But play through any version of Fire Emblem 10 times, and each time, the pairing of specific units can be completely different with each play through. Characters start at point A, but can end up at point B, C, D, etc.

Thank you very much for clarifying! My apologies for the misinterpretation, and for any hostilities that may have stemmed thereof. However, incorporating same-sex S supports would likely not limit the opportunities available, given that even if we all agree that having everyone programmed to be bisexual isn't the most realistic option (in a game featuring time traveling children and dragons, no less) with the sheer size of the cast, that would be the easiest way to avoid conflict and appease as many fans as possible; you would thus still be able to reach points D or C and now the additional points E or F should you opt to do so. Regardless of whether they incorporate one gay character or not, potential consumers are already disappointed by the inability to marry a character of the same gender, so postponing it by saying "not now" begs the question "Then when?"

The difference being, Fire Emblem gives the player (some) control whereas animation as a medium has virtually no viewer interaction. Adrienne Shaw (Activist for diversity in gaming) conducted a study and hilariosuly enough came to the conclusion that there was very little difference in enjoyment between playing as a character you identify with than a character of a different race, gender, orientation what have you.

Unfortunately for her she was trying to provide evidence for inclusion based on a demand by gamers, she had to refocus her efforts on molding the industry instead.

Unless there was investment by the player in building a created character's backstory, most players will tend to gravitate towards actual gameplay factors rather than self-identifying characteristics when selecting a player character if given the choice. Falco was one of the most used Brawl characters because his speed and moves confer a greater chance of victory and not because there is an overwhelming group of self-identifying birdkin excersing an inclusive character option.

Thank you very much for the read. While this study certainly doesn't work in favour of active support, the results most definitely do reaffirm that the majority of people would be indifferent towards the matter rather than vocally opposed, and would thus most likely not hinder sales as heavily as some dread. If, through some justification, characters could produce children amongst same-sex pairs as well as the straight ones, most threads will still be discussing which couples produce the kid with best stats instead of the ideal genders of the parents, for example.

[Glitchy]

I wouldn't really mind it at all, but I honestly doubt they would actually put it in. I voted yes, because I'm not against it at all, more neutral towards it.