Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?

[sforzur]

It feels more...personal I guess for lack of a better word, to not have to play as a girl to romantically support a guy, and vice versa.

My sentiments exactly. I get a little upset whenever someone tells me to just "play as a guy" if I want to romance a girl in games with a self-insert; a ton of the dialogue usually winds up gendered, so you're constantly reminded that this game wasn't tailored for you. Different people may mind it less, but it's a bit jarring for me, personally.

So, yes. I'd thoroughly appreciate LGBT+ representation in If.

As a girl who likes girls, the heavier emphasis on heterosexuality in both FE4 and FE13 left me feeling even more isolated than the other games. I'd love to see characters of the same gender be able to have romantic supports if they've got good chemistry.

[Espinosa]

I want to have furry relationships in FE if

and not just with the fox spirit guy

Edited June 6, 2015 by Espinosa

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I want to have furry relationships in FE if

and not just with the fox spirit guy

this post brings up a point i remember from another forum.

"fanservice is nice and all, but when do we stop with it, or do we allow every fetish and everything because we'd be leaving out people, dispite what it might do about the quality"

[Draco]

Actually, I think only a few of the characters should be gay but only if they have chemistry.

Not just a "Hey, we're all gonna get laid!" kinda deal. I think a post somewhere in hear said they wanted every character to be LGBT? That's what I'm basing this off.

EDIT: Like, for example, it would make sense for Lissa and Maribelle or maybe some of the babies to have a romantic support, but probably not Kellam and Henry.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Draco

[Duke]

Nothing personally against lgbt people, let all flowers bloom or however that saying went.

As for supports regardless of orientation, as long as it's not fanfiction level bad I'm ok with it.

[BRSxIgnition]

If you told me there wasn't any, I'd be like, whutever. If you told me there were... I'd say give me Nishiki and his foxy booty. It's the only reason for me to join Hoshido.

Ahahaha - Nishiki/10.

Don't mind as long as they're not comical about it.

Gay relationships are relationships too, they should handle 'em similar to or the same as other relationships in the game.

100% Correct. If there do end up being LGBT characters in the game, there's no reason they shouldn't be as well written or better than any of the other supports.

I have an idea of how it might work (this is something I came up with in a couple of minutes, so don't blame me if it is horrible.)

They can make it so that everybody can get an S-Support with everyone they can support with. Before you say, "An entire army of bisexual people doesn't make sense," I think it could be more along the lines of previous games' A-Supports, instead of Awakening's S-Supports.. S-Supports could be in one of three categories. Those categories being undeniably romantic, undeniably platonic, and vague.

No no no no no no no please no.

There's a reason that "Queerbaiting" is a term. (See "Free!", "Hibike! Euphonium", "Madoka Magica", and more.)

Like listed in the first post, and explained in a later one: having an equal mix of 6-9 Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual characters would be more than enough to be inclusive while not outright filling the cast with bisexuals or "blocked" romances. (Characters who players may want to romance, but are unable to due to a mismatch in gender/orientation. Ex. Lesbian Nyx and Male MU.)

I agree with you, staying neutral really only benefits the status quo of narrow representation. I actually find it quite offensive that underrepresented groups have to have a reason to be included while the majority does not.

Hence why I did not include any middle option. Too often is this the case.

http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3ca5889a630d721e0ca0659bb07132c1?convert_to_webp=true

just remembered that this quote exists while keeping up on the thread, i mean do we really have to be offended?

Nope, nobody needs to be offended - religious reasons or otherwise, it's not your life. Nobody is making you change your sexuality. (Not that that's even possible.)

give me the gay

+1.

At the risk of being flamed to death and it having it held against me forever after: As a Catholic, while I am not against the existence of homosexuals, I am firmly against homosexual relationships on moral grounds.

Romantic relationships are meant to find spouses, and so relationships that are not open to--or that cannot lead to--marriage are morally reprehensible.

Oh. Oh no.

But seriously - to respond to your second sentence, that's why gay marriage was just made legal in Ireland and is being made legal in more and more of the world. So these lovely, real relationships can lead to marriage just like any straight relationship can.

I really don't care, but if they do that, there's guaranteed to be people disappointed at not being able to S-Support whichever character with their preferred gender of Avatar.

I think they should either leave it as is (don't fix what's not broken), or make all the characters bisexual so that everyone can S-Support whoever they want, regardless of gender.

Making everyone bisexual would be pandering at best, and extremely insensitive at worst.

Assuming a roster of around 30-35 characters, having 6-9 of them being a mix of Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual would be inclusive, respectful, and realistic, while also avoiding the issue of blocked romances. (Which, may I point out, has been happening to LGBT players since forever.)

I don't mind, but I was really annoyed that people complained about no LGBT S ranks in awakening. Seriously, if they had included them it would have caused a ton of problems.

That's because of the children. That won't be an issue that time, and can't be used as an excuse this time/

I'm all for the LGBT characters and supports. There's nothing wrong with diversity and I feel that people everywhere should be able to identify themselves with at least one character in a huge cast such as Fire Emblem.

Very well said.

I feel like people being uncomfortable with this subject is another reason why LGBT characters and supports should be included. It goes to show that people haven't been exposed enough to this where it's still seen as something abnormal.

I'm rather shocked that the "No." votes are above 10% - just goes to show, there still are people who think that way. Hopefully this changes as it becomes more and more legal and normal.

If there are more than just a very small handful of romantic supports, it feels wrong not to put in some same-sex options. At that point you're just excluding a segment of the population for... no real reason.

A+, very well said.

i don't think i'd want press from polygon period, they don't like games.

I don't mind Polygon. They're pretty okay, in my book.

I'd like to remind everyone that we have forum rules and you agreed to follow them when you signed up. You're free to state your opinion on a topic, but being offensive is going to get you warned.

Thank you, Admin.

My sentiments exactly. I get a little upset whenever someone tells me to just "play as a guy" if I want to romance a girl in games with a self-insert; a ton of the dialogue usually winds up gendered, so you're constantly reminded that this game wasn't tailored for you. Different people may mind it less, but it's a bit jarring for me, personally.

So, yes. I'd thoroughly appreciate LGBT+ representation in If.

As a girl who likes girls, the heavier emphasis on heterosexuality in both FE4 and FE13 left me feeling even more isolated than the other games. I'd love to see characters of the same gender be able to have romantic supports if they've got good chemistry.

I agree with this entirely.

The best example of this would be Severa and Kjelle. Severa is all but foaming at the mouth with the slightest peak of Kjelle's body, but they brush it off as comedy. It's very immature and offputting.

Actually, I think only a few of the characters should be gay but only if they have chemistry.

Not just a "Hey, we're all gonna get laid!" kinda deal. I think a post somewhere in hear said they wanted every character to be LGBT? That's what I'm basing this off.

It's pretty much agreed on that having everyone be bisexual would be a bad idea. See my 6-9 rule above.

Edited June 6, 2015 by BRSxIgnition

[Deathtrap]

I do not support this in video games. I fully support them in real life though. Just let the devs tell the story they want to tell it. Too much social justice leaking into video games just to satisfy a small minority. Like stated above, it is an issue that should not exist.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire

[Solkia]

And if the story they want to tell includes that?

[Tsunami922]

I voted yes. I hope they do it and do it well.

[BRSxIgnition]

I do not support this in video games. I fully support them in real life though. Just let the devs tell the story they want to tell it. Too much social justice leaking into video games just to satisfy a small minority. Like stated above, it is an issue that should not exist.

Responding to the bolded points: What? No, seriously, what?

How can you support them in real life, yet not support devs creating a well written gay character like Dorian? Also, Social Justice is not a slang term, and it's definitely not an insult. It has the word justice in the term because it's meant to be just that: Just. If you haven't already noticed, it's leaking into the rest of the world too, real life and fiction. As long as it's well written and not rude or for comedic purposes only, why would you not support it if you 'support real' gays and lesbians?

Edited June 6, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire
Edited quote.

[Deathtrap]

And if the story they want to tell includes that?

Then let it be casually mentioned. It should not define a character. You can not make some one exclusively homosexual because I guarantee there will be a backlash. If you make everyone bi it becomes unrealistic and unimmersive, kinda like skyrim where everyone is bi. There really is no winning, which is why I said let them tell the story the way they want to. If they wanted homos and bisexuals it would have been included by now. If they get added in it is because of all the people whining and ruining gaming with their agendas. I'd rather have them put more effort in story telling.

Dorian was my favorite but ruined because his sidequest was "WAH Im gay and my dad doesn't accept me". Zevran was bi and it was handled perfectly. I just do not want another Dorian. If it is done like Zevran then fine, I am cool with it.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire

[ClevelandSteve]

Responding to the bolded points: What? No, seriously, what?

How can you support them in real life, yet not support devs creating a well written gay character like Dorian? Also, Social Justice is not a slang term, and it's definitely not an insult. It has the word justice in the term because it's meant to be just that: Just. If you haven't already noticed, it's leaking into the rest of the world too, real life and fiction. As long as it's well written and not rude or for comedic purposes only, why would you not support it if you 'support real' gays and lesbians?

It's a common internet thing where homophobes go "I'm totally not homophobic, but TEH EVUL SOSHUL JUSTAS WARIERS R GUNA DISTROY VIDO GAEMS BY PUTEN TEH GAYS IN!!!" It's pretty much like Fox News whining about "the Gay Agenda", but for a younger generation. If you truly haven't encountered this mentality before now, I envy you.

[Topazd]

The prospect of LGBT supports isn't an issue to me, but I'm not convinced they will actually be able to implement it sensibly instead of crafting it into a joke.

[Chrosion]

I do not support this in video games. I fully support them in real life though. I don't want another Dragon Age 3 Dorian or that tranny who served no purpose aside from stating their sexuality. Just let the devs tell the story they want to tell it. Too much social justice leaking into video games just to satisfy a small minority. Like stated above, it is an issue that should not exist.

Then let it be casually mentioned. It should not define a character. You can not make some one exclusively homosexual because I guarantee there will be a backlash. If you make everyone bi it becomes unrealistic and unimmersive, kinda like skyrim where everyone is bi. There really is no winning, which is why I said let them tell the story the way they want to. If they wanted homos and bisexuals it would have been included by now. If they get added in it is because of all the people whining and ruining gaming with their agendas. I'd rather have them put more effort in story telling.

Dorian was my favorite but ruined because his sidequest was "WAH Im gay and my dad doesn't accept me". Zevran was bi and it was handled perfectly. I just do not want another Dorian. If it is done like Zevran then fine, I am cool with it.

responding to bolded, and most of it is just to tell you to mind your slurs. "tranny" and "homos" aren't acceptable but i'm going to assume you don't know that so, whatever.

social justice, as the OP stated, is just that... justice...

and finally, a gay character struggling with acceptance shouldn't bother you. it's not just some crybaby whining, it's a real problem. i personally struggle with family acceptance and it's just horrible for so many reasons. really i just have a big problem with that "ruining" it for you.

[NekoKnight]

There's a reason that "Queerbaiting" is a term. (See "Free!", "Hibike! Euphonium", "Madoka Magica", and more.)

Like listed in the first post, and explained in a later one: having an equal mix of 6-9 Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual characters would be more than enough to be inclusive while not outright filling the cast with bisexuals or "blocked" romances. (Characters who players may want to romance, but are unable to due to a mismatch in gender/orientation. Ex. Lesbian Nyx and Male MU.)

Making everyone bisexual would be pandering at best, and extremely insensitive at worst.

Assuming a roster of around 30-35 characters, having 6-9 of them being a mix of Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual would be inclusive, respectful, and realistic, while also avoiding the issue of blocked romances. (Which, may I point out, has been happening to LGBT players since forever.)

I actually find the lesbian/gay subtext (aka your "queerbating") to be more appropriate considering the setting. This is based on a medieval Europe (for Nohr at least) so it's understandable if gay people would keep their orientation more of a secret.

6-9 LGBT characters out of a 30-35 character roster is realistic? That's over 25% of the characters.

[Swirl-Theory]

Only if they're well-written and make sense.

I'd be much more interested in incestuous couples though. I see nothing wrong with sibling incest.

This is highly offensive to me. Not to mention incest isn't comparable with same-sex relationships in any way or form.

On the actual topic however, I don't want to be disrespectful since I have absolutely no problem with same-sex relationships, but I really don't think this is a game where something like this should be pushed in. I know how much a lot of you want it, but you have to consider where the game is made, the majority of the people that will be playing, and who it's aimed at. I think someone else here said it, but a lot of people wouldn't be happy if they want to marry one of those 6-7 characters that weren't available to them.

Really, if you want someone like Tharja that has the same supports regardless of your gender (minus the S-Support), then that is much more likely and reasonable. But 6-7 characters? That is bound to cause a lot of needless trouble.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

This is highly offensive to me. Not to mention incest isn't comparable with same-sex relationships in any way or form.

On the actual topic however, I don't want to be disrespectful since I have absolutely no problem with same-sex relationships, but I really don't think this is a game where something like this should be pushed in. I know how much a lot of you want it, but you have to consider where the game is made, the majority of the people that will be playing, and who it's aimed at. I think someone else here said it, but a lot of people wouldn't be happy if they want to marry one of those 6-7 characters that weren't available to them.

Really, if you want someone like Tharja that has the same supports regardless of your gender (minus the S-Support), then that is much more likely and reasonable. But 6-7 characters? That is bound to cause a lot of needless trouble.

you know what, your right actually, that would be unfair if...lets say people wanted to marry camilla, or sakura, or whoever as a guy, but couldn't because "nah i don't swing that way" or if a girl wanted to marry tsubaki or marx then they went "dicks only pls" not to mention what the higher sexual preference is in general and that'll be where the cash money is made...it'd be bad business, if they were bi then it'd be alot more fine, but having an entire cast of bi is more unrealistic to the setting then having 25% of the cast gay, thus we're at an impasse.

its really hard to speak of justice when its a social construct that can be refuted in several ways (bringing back my 'Where do we stop allowing fetishes and lifestyles in the game?" question that never got anwsered)

[Chiki]

This is highly offensive to me. Not to mention incest isn't comparable with same-sex relationships in any way or form.

On the actual topic however, I don't want to be disrespectful since I have absolutely no problem with same-sex relationships, but I really don't think this is a game where something like this should be pushed in. I know how much a lot of you want it, but you have to consider where the game is made, the majority of the people that will be playing, and who it's aimed at. I think someone else here said it, but a lot of people wouldn't be happy if they want to marry one of those 6-7 characters that weren't available to them.

Really, if you want someone like Tharja that has the same supports regardless of your gender (minus the S-Support), then that is much more likely and reasonable. But 6-7 characters? That is bound to cause a lot of needless trouble.

Why is incest highly offensive to you?

At the risk of being flamed to death and it having it held against me forever after: As a Catholic, while I am not against the existence of homosexuals, I am firmly against homosexual relationships on moral grounds.

It's hard to argue against homosexual relationships even due to religious reasons. We know that the causes of homosexuality seem to be mostly biological. We see homosexuality in wild animals like penguins and such. Why did God create gay penguins? You can ask the gays here if they choose to be gay or not, they'll likely say no. If so, then why did God create gay people in the first place? If God exists, he seems to be okay with gay relationships, since he created them.

[Swirl-Theory]

Why is incest highly offensive to you?

Because it's fetishized. It is made to seem as if it's perfectly fine and dandy, when it really isn't. I'm fine with it if it's portrayed negatively and as something unnatural/a cause of drama like in some romance novels, but when it's added in as a joke or portrayed in a good light, that's when it stops being realistic and turns straight into "disgusting fetish" territory. But this is really not the topic to discuss it and I apologize if I sounded stand-offish.

you know what, your right actually, that would be unfair if...lets say people wanted to marry camilla, or sakura, or whoever as a guy, but couldn't because "nah i don't swing that way" or if a girl wanted to marry tsubaki or marx then they went "dicks only pls" not to mention what the higher sexual preference is in general and that'll be where the cash money is made...it'd be bad business, if they were bi then it'd be alot more fine, but having an entire cast of bi is more unrealistic to the setting then having 25% of the cast gay, thus we're at an impasse.

its really hard to speak of justice when its a social construct that can be refuted in several ways (bringing back my 'Where do we stop allowing fetishes and lifestyles in the game?" question that never got anwsered)

Exactly, thinking of it from a developers view, it would be a bad decision to implement 6-7 (or even just more than 1) LGBT characters. Sure, I'm not saying they can't be added in or anything, but why not just make them a character that cannot be married regardless of your gender? And I do agree with the unrealistic aspect of having a completely bi cast.

[NekoKnight]

Because it's fetishized. It is made to seem as if it's perfectly fine and dandy, when it really isn't. I'm fine with it if it's portrayed negatively and as something unnatural/a cause of drama like in some romance novels, but when it's added in as a joke or portrayed in a good light, that's when it stops being realistic and turns straight into "disgusting fetish" territory. But this is really not the topic to discuss it and I apologize if I sounded stand-offish.

I recall reading some of your posts on a different thread where you explained your opposition to incest as being based on knowing people in real life who were really messed up by it (forgive me if I'm thinking of someone else). But isn't it a bit much to say that incest is always wrong and could never work? I'm sure there are incestuous people in real life who aren't abusive that would take offense to that.

[Swirl-Theory]

I recall reading some of your posts on a different thread where you explained your opposition to incest as being based on knowing people in real life who were really messed up by it (forgive me if I'm thinking of someone else). But isn't it a bit much to say that incest is always wrong and could never work? I'm sure there are incestuous people in real life who aren't abusive that would take offense to that.

No, that wasn't me. I made a topic about why I dislike incest when it's fetishized but I never said I knew people in real life who were affected by it. I only oppose incest because it annoys me how it's seen as something good when others talk about it/due to the stupid siscon and brocon trend. I'm not saying anything against it in real life, if people who are siblings love each other who am I to judge, but when it's some author/game developer/writer same thing who adds it in because of a stupid fetish, that's when I oppose it. But like I said, sorry if I brought this up again and it's getting off topic, lol.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Swirl-Theory

[electricwolf]

Like listed in the first post, and explained in a later one: having an equal mix of 6-9 Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual characters would be more than enough to be inclusive while not outright filling the cast with bisexuals or "blocked" romances. (Characters who players may want to romance, but are unable to due to a mismatch in gender/orientation. Ex. Lesbian Nyx and Male MU.)

Assuming a roster of around 30-35 characters, having 6-9 of them being a mix of Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual would be inclusive, respectful, and realistic, while also avoiding the issue of blocked romances. (Which, may I point out, has been happening to LGBT players since forever.)

It's pretty much agreed on that having everyone be bisexual would be a bad idea. See my 6-9 rule above.

Any way you work the numbers, a roster of 30-35 with 6-9 LGB characters means a minimum of about 17% LGB characters. If the argument you are trying to make involves fair representation then this is still a percentage that is about as far away from the current demographics of the Western world as the current 0% is.

At this point I feel like implementing LGB relationships in FE is a "Choose 2" of:

• Fair representation (~10% like most modern developed countries)
• A manageable cast size
• Not pandering by making everyone bi

You pick the first two and you end up with about 4 LGB characters which would obviously limit romance options.

You pick the last two and you'll probably end up with either 0% LGB or a percentage that is wildly different to the actual prevalence in modern society.

You pick the first and last and you'd have to have a much larger cast than previous FE games to accommadate.

I am by no means going to say that implementation of LGB relationships is impossible and therefore shouldn't be attempted, but just that it would be hard for IS to make it work in a way that works for everyone when their priorities are probably not in this area.

It's a common internet thing where homophobes go "I'm totally not homophobic, but TEH EVUL SOSHUL JUSTAS WARIERS R GUNA DISTROY VIDO GAEMS BY PUTEN TEH GAYS IN!!!" It's pretty much like Fox News whining about "the Gay Agenda", but for a younger generation.

I'd like to say that this post reminds me of a fairly poorly drawn comic. Putting words (in all caps with bad spelling and taking their ideas to an extreme) into another groups mouth and generalising a set of people with different opinions as low-intelligence homophobes probably isn't the most constructive way of engaging with that group of people.

One issue that has only been partially mentioned is the T part of LGBT and I think it does relate to the disability issue (disclaimer: I am not saying that sexuality can in any way be perceived as a disability, please read the rest of this paragraph and no flame pls).

If Fire Emblem games continue to be in a world that is medieval-ish but with magic, how do you make disabled or transgender characters? A kid in a wheelchair is gonna kick some ass in battles that are down hills but otherwise would end up in a NPC kind of role to make any sense. And if you explain the construction of wheelchairs in medieval times with magic, why couldn't magic un-disable someone? Even then, is that a healthy attitude to people playing the game who might be disabled themselves? Would you limit it to minor disabilities?

Now I'm not an expert on medical history, but I'm not sure if medieval-type medicine would cover gender reassignment unless with magic (once again, is that a healthy attitude to have when real life gender assignment isn't exactly a one step process?) and I fear that in the writing you'd end up with a character that would just end up seeming eccentric instead of well-written and representative.

I feel like transgender and disabled character options aren't being mentioned enough in this thread and I'm not sure why. If it's the wider issue of how appropriate they would be within the usual FE frame of medieval Europe-ish, then does that also lend any merit to why LGB relationships haven't featured outright in FE games?

Edited June 6, 2015 by electricwolf

[Tryhard]

It is actually our responsibility to correct others who have strayed from the path of righteousness.

This is a very dangerous statement.

I will say that even without it, your argument doesn't make a lot of sense, for reasons others have explained.

[BrandedRogue]

If they are well written, why not. Gays exist and are just as human as straight people. Just keep them well written, no gay-parade kind of characters, who's only character trait is being gay. We already had Heather and the ever present bandit brothers (I never like those brothers ><), so it's not that strange to see some gay characters.

But on the other hand I wouldn't like my Femui to be barred from S-ranking (assuming we have S-rank supports again) someone cuz' they are gay. I know that's what all gay people go through when playing, so I know it's not really fair to think that way.

And the reason why you shouldn't bring religion into a discussion is cuz' it might explained your point of view, but it's not an argument it's a believe.

[chihiroos]

I voted yes, being a pansexual person myself I always get a giddy feeling inside when I find out two characters of the same sex are happily together and its not just in the case of avatar x someone. I faintly remember Lissa and Maribelle's supports being very adorable and thinking, "wouldn't it be nice if they go together?"

I don't really understand how anyone can be against same sex relationships especially in videogames. I understand not wanting them shoved in your face, (which I doubt they would be), but is it a little too much to ask for some well written representation?

Edited June 6, 2015 by chihiroos