Thousand Names Mafia Day 4

[Percivalé]

Shin do you think you could clarify your reads a bit more? You say "everyone else is varying shades of null" so does that mean you think Rapier and Prims are scum? It doesn't feel like it took much to convince you to vote Vhaltz, either.

Like on one hand I do think Vhaltz is scum but on the off-chance he flips town this wagon analysis is going to be fucking weird.

[Shin]

dude I never said I was relying on meta I only really mentioned meta when it came to my Vhaltz case and I got asked to explain it so I did. I really wouldn't have otherwise because it didn't feel relevant to me. come on.

I don't care that Kirsche and I voted Vhaltz at the same time, that was kinda funny, but you saying it's "weird" implies you think we might be scum doubleteaming him but then you go ahead and throw a townread on Kirsche.

You don't need to become so hostile with regards to one point, you make a lot of mention to people's metas, not just Vhaltz. I brought up the double vote thing because it caught my eye, I would have pursued it further if I thought there were scum intent.

[Snike]

Disclaimer: 4 am, might not be coherent.

@Yolo: I think i already mentioned the part about the self-vote thing but I think Vhaltz thought Excellen was behind/unaware on the meta(?).

@Prims:

I brought up Shin and excellen just to put my positions on them out there since they're part of the whole mess on page 3 and I had/have nothing out there other than an rvs previously. From what you're saying I wasn't clear on that which is my bad. I think excellen is town, at least from what I've seen so far. I brought up Badass because the whole mess reminded me of it.

I need to see more from shin before I can make a solid non-null read on him, but like I said I thought the self-vote was some strange rvs business. Clarification would be nice.

WRT Kirsche, that's true but I feel like the game-state point didn't jive with the tone of the rest of his post (unless I'm a buffoon) and was added in after the reaction test point. If that makes sense. He later developed it into a read, true, and rereading #100 makes me feel better about him. I need to ask a question about that, actually, but they semi-pertain to your case so that'll be further down.

I can't meta-read Vhaltz because I have played with him rarely (if at all), so I have to take things like Quote's meta read at face value. I didn't find anything wrong with his content on first read as well, so I wasn't really seeing the reasons for the lynch at the time so I think I was town reading him, at least compared to kirsche. I don't think that's the case now, but I'm going to ask for clarification wrt your case.

Case is something like this:

-fosing, then not committing to voting you because that would lead to a confrontation which would bring attention to him

-This is odd because he would've committed to the vote normally

-Misrepresents you as knowing rapier's meta well enough to be able to easily form a read, which leads to you looking sketchy because you said you were unspecific about Rapier feeling weird

-Timing of previous point makes it look like a parting shot to shift attention away from him because it wasn't brought up immediately.

-(Kirsche #100 section) Interjection was more of like a clarification than an actual attempt to discuss. I'm thinking something like a fact checker at a debate, for example.

-(Kirsche #100 section) This is scummy because it gives him a pass from being entangled in the argument and thus becoming a focus for attention. Which allows him to float by during at least this day phase without providing meaningful content.

-Parking votes remark is salt from caught scum.

Is this accurate, or close enough?

[Percivalé]

also snike's post was kinda forgettable, 3/10

[Shin]

Shin do you think you could clarify your reads a bit more? You say "everyone else is varying shades of null" so does that mean you think Rapier and Prims are scum? It doesn't feel like it took much to convince you to vote Vhaltz, either.

Like on one hand I do think Vhaltz is scum but on the off-chance he flips town this wagon analysis is going to be fucking weird.

I mentioned that Prims is probably me second best read, it's right at the bottom of my post. I mentioned why I thought Vhaltz was trying to avoid the spotlight and actively participating, and as well as why I thought him dropping his case so easily looked bad.

[Percivalé]

You don't need to become so hostile with regards to one point, you make a lot of mention to people's metas, not just Vhaltz. I brought up the double vote thing because it caught my eye, I would have pursued it further if I thought there were scum intent.

I'm not trying to sound hostile, I'm just frustrated because I don't feel like that's all I've been relying on?? I guess you could count my Prims read as meta I guess? What else am I missing?

And well... if you don't think there's scum intent, why bring it up? This is a curious question, not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I'm interested in the thought process

[Percivalé]

fuck I just ntoiced snike ninja'd me

[Percivalé]

sorry I jus tngjdgfndghdng dgndfhgnf ghdn I'm going to step away and go to bed, sorry if I sounded harsh, it wasn't my intention.

[Shin]

I'm not trying to sound hostile, I'm just frustrated because I don't feel like that's all I've been relying on?? I guess you could count my Prims read as meta I guess? What else am I missing?

And well... if you don't think there's scum intent, why bring it up? This is a curious question, not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I'm interested in the thought process

Your playstyle leads to an appearance of uncertainty, and you've brought meta up enough times for me to notice it, which adds to it. I bring things up because that's how I process things, plus it gives me wonderful opportunities to see how other people take it.

[Percivalé]

bossanova asked me to explain what I meant by my Vhaltz metaread which I didn't want to have to explain because I'm bad at meta reading people as is >: which I've already said and it's not why (or at least the sole reason why) I'm voting him, but I thought I might mention it because I can't lie and say that it hasn't influenced my read on him a little.

[Excellen Browning]

WRT Mancer voting me and his general posting; what annoys me is that his argumentation relies on "If you were town you would have posted X instead of what you posted" (#68, #77, #84).

Vhaltz so far is in my opinion reading townish. The attacks on him by mancer, kirsche and YOLOSWAG are uncalled for. Vhaltz has on two occasions alluded to or outright stated he's trying to prevent town infighting.

Kirsche should not drunkpost. Your logic at #100 is ass and reads like you're actively trying to incriminate someone.

Prims is the first one so far to make an actual case against Vhaltz, though I figure it's mostly fueled by annoyance/frustration.

Out of everyone so far, I'd say none of the main suspects strikes me as anything but town at the moment. Ergo, the last few pages read like town infighting to me. Though to be fair I'll try and reread vhaltz' posts, as well as Mancer's.

[Vhaltz]

and even if it legit bugged him he could have pressed it several posts ago rather than to conclude a discussion where he was under fire for not contributing.

RE: bad meta, can you provide some instance where "but he could've made that case sooner!" has actually caught scum? This is point is Artificial Case Bloating and you should know it. I had missed the extremely short comment in #59 the first time around, but the sudden switch between "Rapier is silly" in #59 and "I'm feeling kind of weird about Rapier" in #85 is worth mentioning anytime in the game after I spotted it because there were no posts from Rapier in between. Paper's case also barely develops from his initial post at that point so I'm curious what you suddenly found so extremely sheepable about it.

As it stands now you're just throwing out an OMGUS driven by salt from your last hosted game and generally not wanting to deal with me, so have fun with that because I'm not getting lynched.

i think a townie wuld b likelier to keep their cards closer to their chest let things play out and then get their hands dirty for the sake of scumhunting

Don't care much about Yolo's case, but if he wants an explanation for this he should just read my play in Shovel Knight as Specter Knight and note that said playstyle only made me pursue Tinker!town and Propeller!town harder in LyLo, when I easily would've voted Treasure!scum at the beginning of the phase. I'm switching it up to avoid bias around reaction tests or "if X posts in Y style in response to this then that probably means they're Z" style of thinking because it just didn't work out for me at all.

If he wants me to reply to other stuff he should say so because spending time explaining why I'm doing things beyond the above is just going to lead to more "so defensive must be scum!" circlejerkery of an established wagon.

Not a fan of Snike's reasoning to keep his vote on Rapier in #117. I fail to see how announcing that you're taking the bait ruins a reaction test, if anything it makes the read more genuine for the one testing you than if you just pretended to be stupid and fall for it, and unsurprisingly, get voted for it. What point would there be to not announce it? Following that logic the only good thing Rapier could've done is twiddle his thumbs and wait for somebody else to take the bait, so it feels like it's painting potential town proactiveness as scummy.

His comments on me are also off because he spends like 4 sentences agreeing with every point against me only to justify a read switch-around with one line that doesn't make sense "I don't see where he pursued either player aggressively like kirsche mentioned in #104." <- the whole point by kirsche was that I didn't pursue them, in #104 he was saying that I could have pursued them without being aggressive, which I don't really agree with but w/e.

It feels like he wanted to keep himself off my wagon while not contributing to shut it down, and instead ended up cheering it on while explaining what should have been a null read.

##Vote: Snike

Feel good about Paperblade because his defense of me spread across several posts keeps adding layer over layer of logic instead of just the "you guys are bad for voting this townie" approach I'd expect from scum whiteknighting. He's just playing with the game insight he usually has as town as far as I can tell.

Mancer's posts also read like the most reasonable approach to the RVS shenanigans that were going on, you can argue that interfering with reaction tests is anti-town all you want, but the way he went about it was very clearly not with the intent to fuck with people's reads and instead to pursue people who made votes that he found questionable.

Via is most likely town because I doubt she would've switcharoo'd from "man I don't think I wanna vote vhaltz anymore but I can't find another vote I like" to "alright vhaltz is probably scum then" as scum because they'd feel under pressure to be consistent. It's frustrating 'cause the initial meta read was wrong and I find Prims' case to be horrendously transparent in terms of it being relatiation for his frustration on me last game, but shrug.

Bossa reads fairly reasonable, I like the speed of the followups and the stream of thought post, it locks his reads down for his next posts and would've been entirely unnecessary for scum to post. I like him much less than Mancer and Paperblade but still relatively cool compared to the rest of the game.

[Vhaltz]

^ if it wasn't clear I'm also townreading Via more than Bossa. I just added Via in post scriptum because I hadn't read through the Via/Shin exchange properly when I wrote the bit about Bossa. No particular thoughts on Shin other than I think his replies to Via are meh and don't really like his push on them based on meta uncertainty when that's what they usually play like. It feels like Shin should know Via better by now but nothing else he posted really bothered me so shrug.

also Mitsuki for official mafia game oracle 2015

[12:42:06 AM] Mitsuki: mi thoughts QT se llama
[12:42:11 AM] Mitsuki: "this game will suck"
[12:42:28 AM] Mitsuki: I have a feeling

[Vhaltz]

Vhaltz so far is in my opinion reading townish. The attacks on him by mancer, kirsche and YOLOSWAG are uncalled for. Vhaltz has on two occasions alluded to or outright stated he's trying to prevent town infighting.

I think you've mixed up Mancer with someone else btw.

[Shin]

^ if it wasn't clear I'm also townreading Via more than Bossa. I just added Via in post scriptum because I hadn't read through the Via/Shin exchange properly when I wrote the bit about Bossa. No particular thoughts on Shin other than I think his replies to Via are meh and don't really like his push on them based on meta uncertainty when that's what they usually play like. It feels like Shin should know Via better by now but nothing else he posted really bothered me so shrug.

You misunderstand, my exchange isn't about not understanding Via's play or mindset. It was about using said knowledge to get the information I actually wanted from how they responded.

Reading Vhaltz's mega=post, one moment.

[Vhaltz]

You misunderstand, my exchange isn't about not understanding Via's play or mindset. It was about using said knowledge to get the information I actually wanted from how they responded.

I'm not particularly bothered by it because you didn't vote on it or list it as a main read, but I don't really get what you're saying here. What were you expecting to get from Via and how do you interpret what you got from them?

Just reread your posts and I'll also note that my unvote wasn't a case drop. My vote on kirsche was entirely RVS and I just unvoted because I don't think their aggressive pursuit came from scum. Why keep the vote under those circumstances?

[Shin]

First of all, are you scum Vhaltz? It worked when Mitsuki did it, I sware.

Looking at your interactions with kirsche, I think your vote extended a little bit beyond RVS. And if it didn't, why did you keep it for so long?

Whilst your latest post is an improvement over your initial reluctance to participate, I don't like how defensive you are responding to Prims and YOLO. If you're getting worked up by a mafia game, it's best to take a step back for a while. I don't want to get into a debacle about it, but it's not helping your case. I mean, the reads below the vote make some sort of sense.

Snike's actually worth bringing up, I can kinda see where Vhaltz is coming from. It's a massive flip from unsure to scum, especially since he pretty much admit's he's using Via's metaread on Vhaltz to justify it. Witholding a vote to keep one on Rapier, which still hasn't been particularly well explained, looks a lot like supporting a lynch without wanting to be directly associated with it.

##Unvote

##Vote: Snike

This may seem like a massive turn around, "lol Shin, you're scumreading your top scumread's scumread. Scumreadception.", but looking back, his list of one liner reads are incredibly shallow. Snike, how about we have some FUN.

For the record, I still think Vhaltz is pretty scummy, and I really don't think he could be scum at all with Snike.

[RoseSGS]

Wow, 5 pages in under a day. My other game's probably only going to get 4 pages in total. (It's really slow though, and two people are probably going to be modkilled).

There's HBC here as well? /off-topic

Anyhow... reads:

Quote: (took me a sec to realise that was his name) I like him and his posts. He feels rather transparent imo, and makes an obvious attempt at scumhunting. Town read. Probably strongest current read I have.

Vhaltz: I feel I should comment on this bandwagon, but tbh I'm not even sure why there's a wagon on him. I was skimming... and then, bam, votes on Vhaltz. Can someone quote me the post where it all started?

Most other people are kinda null. Don't really like Yolo's anti-town attitude, but it's not necessarily indicative of scum.

[Percivalé]

shiiin are you saying that whole thing was a huge social experiment reaction test

I could get behind a Snike wagon but I need to actually properly read what I missed which I can't do until I get back from my class today so brb.

[Vhaltz]

First of all, are you scum Vhaltz? It worked when Mitsuki did it, I sware.

Looking at your interactions with kirsche, I think your vote extended a little bit beyond RVS. And if it didn't, why did you keep it for so long?

Whilst your latest post is an improvement over your initial reluctance to participate, I don't like how defensive you are responding to Prims and YOLO. If you're getting worked up by a mafia game, it's best to take a step back for a while. I don't want to get into a debacle about it, but it's not helping your case. I mean, the reads below the vote make some sort of sense.

Nope

I didn't feel like voting anybody else, also didn't really feel like unvoting until I was pretty certain that kirsche was town which didn't really happen until #100.

I'm just generally annoyed with Prims since last postgame so you can ignore that if you like, it's just my way of telling him he shouldn't complain so much about bad meta and bad reads if he can't actually read me worth shit or bring up tells that matter. Wrt Yolo I just thought it was more productive to let it be as a general explanation, but if they still can't make sense of my posts when looking at them from the point of view I mentioned he can just go ahead and ask about specific stuff.

@Rose can you elaborate what you mean with "Yolo's anti-town attitude"?

[Zkirsche]

Oh boy. For the record, I wasn't drunkposting, being drunk is my PR which I have dropped because it is too annoying to emulate in a proper discussion.

No, he did get the message.

He just decided to stick to his vote because it benefitted him (if scum) or decided to stick to his vote because he thinks that what counts is the intent that Excellen had in mind when they first produced their vote and wasn't yet aware of the meta discrepancy (if town).

But he was aware of the meta discrepancy shortly after in post #56 and could have reacted to it.

Why do you think massclaiming would give us anything in a setup that is probably made in such a way that scum has weird fucking roles in the first place?

I don't, that was a joke.

it's pretty easy to infer Vhaltz did not think Llen was scummy based on what he said.

That is true but that is not my point, my point being that Vhaltz would be actively pushing his thoughts more as town. There is a benefit for scum to letting the argument continue and by not directly calling out and explaining to Rapier why town!Excellen would act that way, he is letting that happen.

There is a difference between saying "Llen RVS meta has changed and you're behind on it" and "Llen the RVS meta has changed and you're behind on it. Rapier, Llen is simply being behind on the meta, his vote isn't really that scummy."

At this point I recognize that I am partially* trying to project myself onto Vhaltz but for an ED1 case it is legit and worth looking out for if this is his attitude going into the rest of the game. *It is not the usual type of projection though as I feel like it is a much more widespread (see: Paperblade and Prims itg) townie approach (it is why I am townreading these two).

#115 is good #nobias #turboVhaltz

Kirsche's initial voting reason for Vhaltz + the aggressive remark strike me as off, honestly. Former for bringing in the reason of not advancing the game state which felt like it was semi-lifted from the antecedent prims post. I'd like to look at him later, if Rapier improves.

What aggressive remark? Is it the "I will fuck you up" post because that was a joke and playing to my drunkard PR. The next most aggressive thing I've said is the "lmao really?" which I said because, lmao really?

I'm not going to hide it: Prims brought my attention to it and I deemed it scummier than the rest of the game for the reasons outlined in #100. I have no qualm with sheeping or using other people's points, mafia is a team game after all. For example, Prims' points against you are good: what do you think of Shin's #124?

#118 is painful to read but appears to have good intentions (though I disagree with the closing remark on the Vhaltz explanation). #119 is the same.

Although your frustrations at people defending me are interesting, this seems like a good way to get people to produce a case rather than push one.

This is a very good point and is definitely something for people to look out for in the future. I was townreading him but now I'll keep my guard up.

WRT Kirsche, that's true but I feel like the game-state point didn't jive with the tone of the rest of his post (unless I'm a buffoon) and was added in after the reaction test point.

Nah those two points were put in at the same time, after I had inspected Vhaltz's post more thoroughly. The tone shift is just my trying to segue from an RVS claim (which was seriously despite the joking tone) into a serious vote.

What is your question regarding my case?

Vhaltz has on two occasions alluded to or outright stated he's trying to prevent town infighting.

Words are wind my friend, you should see that part of my case is me doubting that. As for my case being ass: Do you think that scum are more or less likely to push town and scumreads? That is the essence of my case, I think they are less likely as it ties them down to a read and also puts themselves into discussions and arguments and I think the way Vhaltz presented his first posts avoided that push. You yourself defend him because trying to stop town infighting is townie, which implies that letting town infight is bad. Wouldn't the most desirable thing be for scum to appear to discourage town infighting, let it happen while also not pushing ones opinions? That is what I claim Vhaltz is doing, so what part of that is ass?

If I am actively trying to incriminate Vhaltz then why do you imply that I am part of the town-infighting? Surely that is scummy, so I should not be a townread. I repeat the question that I posed to you 3 pages ago, its relevance stronger than ever: Is Shin still the scummiest player in this game? Reminder that I was not drunk at the time of #100 and that it is indeed my sincere thoughts on the matter.

#137 is a good post, though it has many low blows aimed at Prims. The conclusions that I've been desiring for a while are there, and much more importantly they are being pushed in our faces. It also seems like he is less concerned about people voting him than he was earlier. The Mancer town read mirrors my thoughts on him and the Via townread is nice because it shows that he is taking a step back and evaluating everything without bias. Only thing I really disagree with is the Bossanova read and:

can you provide some instance where "but he could've made that case sooner!" has actually caught scum?

Which is dumb because noone really keeps a track of these things past the last few games and so it can be put against a lot of attacks with the only retort possible being to reread every game over the past year, which is a stupid amount of effort. Not being able to provide examples of where it caught scum doesn't mean it hasn't caught scum nor does it make it poor logic to use to catch scum.

tl;dr #137 makes me more interested in

##unvote

##vote:Snike

and I have misgivings about Excellen and Bossanova for I don't think their content is very good. Neither really accomplishes anything with their posts: #108 is very mediocre and if it was simply removed the game wouldn't change at all, #110 is ok... but that's it. i just don't think Boss is trying very hard to be an active part of these discussions, Boss what are your thoughts on:

-Shin's #124

-Me vs Vhaltz?

-Prims' points against you.

Excellen could probably stand to answer the first and get a vote down on someone or explain why he's keeping it on Shin. Ftr Vhaltz isn't off my radar either but these lines of attack are more useful right now.

pedit: I was cut and now suddenly there's a huge Snike wagon lmao at least we're better at consoldiating this game it seems. @Rose: If you want to know the Vhaltz cases read post #100 and post number #115.

[RoseSGS]

Re-read a bit: Kinda understand the Vhaltz bandwagon, but thinks it's an over-reaction to one single incident. While we don't have much information this early on, this reaction's really a bit too strong. He did neglect acting after his post, but I don't think he deserves to be lynched for it.

[RoseSGS]

Actually, nvm about Yolo. I only read some of his posts, and only some parts of those posts as well. e.g. "Vhaltz shuld die"; and "I'm voting Vhaltz cuz I think he's scum". But I somehow completely disregarded everything else he said, and focussed on those quotes too much.

tl;dr Disregard my comment on his anti-town-ness.

Now that I reread, I'm liking Yolo more. His attacks are sound, and make sense. I don't agree with them, but I can't point out flaws in his arguments, and only provide counter-arguments.

[Vhaltz]

Which is dumb because noone really keeps a track of these things past the last few games and so it can be put against a lot of attacks with the only retort possible being to reread every game over the past year, which is a stupid amount of effort. Not being able to provide examples of where it caught scum doesn't mean it hasn't caught scum nor does it make it poor logic to use to catch scum.

There's an argument to be had that repeating a tell over and over doesn't make it effective. In my experience "they could have posted that earlier" is dumb at the levels of the appeasement tell because it's very exploitable for scum to use and town would never base a case around it, regardless of who uses it it's always there to make the case seem stronger when it doesn't mean anything. People sometimes miss things when they're reading, and if anything talking about something past means they actually made the effort to reread.

While I understand that it might be unreasonable to ask somebody to go back and find an instance where it was useful, if you can't really think of any off the top of your head and you can think of several times that you've used it as scum knowing it was BS, it probably means that it's rarely useful, if ever.

[Vhaltz]

@kirsche do you think Bossa!scum would come in, post a couple of stuffs and refuse to vote due to indecisiveness when I was currently getting wagoned for that exact same thing?