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Do you think BK actually MEANT to kill Greil?

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(which was pretty counter intuitive since not only do so few people know of the medallion's existence, even less so know where or what it is. Killing the man off or giving him a grave wound is a bad idea if no one really knows where it is except him).

The Black Knight probably knew all along that Mist had it; he had seen Mist take it about ten years prior, she was still alive, and if anyone else had even touched it, they probably would have killed her (and left considerable additional carnage--and the Black Knight probably knew that too).

Edited by Paper Jam

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I do think he was out to kill Greil or at the very least that he knew that a dead Greil would be the result of his little 'I want to surpass my former master" motive. To be honest the whole surpassing his master thing kind of made me think of the Black Knight as a complete and utter scumbag. He basically killed a man and orphaned his kids because he needed to boost his precious ego. As far as motivations go I consider that a bit pathetic and it made see him as less of a respectable knight and more of a common killer.

Sure he did have a job in retrieving the medallion, but I believe I remembered Lehran saying that Greil's death was not in his cards and that BK acted on his own.

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I do think he was out to kill Greil or at the very least that he knew that a dead Greil would be the result of his little 'I want to surpass my former master" motive. To be honest the whole surpassing his master thing kind of made me think of the Black Knight as a complete and utter scumbag. He basically killed a man and orphaned his kids because he needed to boost his precious ego. As far as motivations go I consider that a bit pathetic and it made see him as less of a respectable knight and more of a common killer.

Sure he did have a job in retrieving the medallion, but I believe I remembered Lehran saying that Greil's death was not in his cards and that BK acted on his own.

Well I mean he is sorta the bad guy to begin with. I thought it made him out to be more psychotic and obsessed than anything else.

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Well I mean he is sorta the bad guy to begin with. I thought it made him out to be more psychotic and obsessed than anything else.

True and that would be fine, but my dislikes comes from the fact that I always thought Radiant's dawn's endgame treated him with a lot more respect then he deserves. The game paints him as the last true knight and Ike's final teacher, while I'm just seeing a common killer.

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True and that would be fine, but my dislikes comes from the fact that I always thought Radiant's dawn's endgame treated him with a lot more respect then he deserves. The game paints him as the last true knight and Ike's final teacher, while I'm just seeing a common killer.

I thought of it more like the silver lining. As bad as it was to have Ike lose his father to the Black Knight without it happening he would not have gotten as strong as he did and later help save the continent. As for respect maybe more as an opponent rather than as a person.

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The Black Knight didn't exactly murder Greil in cold blood; in fact, it was about as fair a duel as it could have been (as far as the Black Knight knew, anyway).

Remember, the Black Knight outright gave Greil a weapon that could pierce his armor; it was Greil's decision not to use it. And the Black Knight warned Greil that continuing to fight with his axe would result in his death; it was Greil's decision to keep fighting anyway.

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I do think the Black Knight fully intended to have a fight to the death. The only regret he seemed to have was that it went so easy, not that Greil died at all which isn't the reaction he would have if Greil's death really wasn't an intended outcome. BK's behavior during and especially after the fight are to malicious to make me believe it was an accident.

Its a bit of a shame because the Black Knight's relation with Greil and Ike is the most important thing about him. Its a bit of a letdown that his reason for killing Greil boiled down to him just wanting to find out if he could do so. Greil's words let me to believe there was some kind of grudge between the two of them but sadly it all ended up being less interesting than that.

I heard it said the Black Knight killed Greil because he would know his identity but I think even Greil himself might not have known what was beneath the helmet. When conversing with Lehran about being a branded and thus aging slower Lehran asks ''And you wish to conceal this fact fact, don't you? Is that why you rarely remove your armor, even when indoors?''. Furthermore, Greils old friend Tauroneo does not seem to know that the Black Knight is Zelgius. His wording when Ike tells him that a man in black armor killed Greil seems to indicate he knew the black knight was Greils student so it could be he only saw Zelgius in his armor.

This could indicate that the Black Knight was always part of Zelgius' life in Daein and that he himself only came out of his armor when he joined Lehran.

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I personally felt that the Black Knight had fully intended to fight his former master- and if that meant death, he would accept it. However, the line "Is that it? No challenge, no resistance" always gave me the thought that he didn't think that would be the killing blow. I would imagine that the Black Knight had fully expected Greil to counter, parry or something- to keep the battle going, until some final "do or die" moment. But instead, after only a few glancing slashes meant to poke and prod an experienced foe, one connected and killed him. Sure the attacks were unquestionably meant to be fatal, and he probably expected after fighting his master to both of their full ability to strike a final blow and then investigate the location of the medallion, his main goal was the fight. He wanted to experience the thrill he had imagined for years, fully knowing what it could potentially mean.

So to me, Zelgius intended for this fight to be their final confrontation. The way I think he wanted it to go was something like this. If Greil would have been defeated and lived, Zelgius likely wouldn't have delivered a final blow just to keep his identity a secret or to feed his ego that way. He probably would have demanded to be acknowledged as stronger, and in return, be told the location of the medallion. He would have been happy to have lived up to his fantasies, been praised one last time by his master and then went back to the role he chose for himself fulfilling both parts of his mission- personal and professional. Of course, reality didn't work that way and then Greil died in the least ideal way. To him, it would have been like two pro-boxers who spent months preparing for their championship fight- and in the first round, one of the boxers goes in for a jab, taps the other guy's nose knocking him off balance ever so slightly- only for him to slip on a wet spot on the mat, fall face first into the the pole and knock himself out on it. Sure the first guy becomes the champion, but it sure doesn't feel like it- not to the audience, and not to the fighter either.

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The fight always annoyed me since the BK was like "Here, take this blade, the only weapon capable of piercing my armor." and Greil was like "No way dude, let me use this axe which has a weapon disadvantage and is incapable of even damaging your armor." Greil deserved to lose hard (Yeah yeah I know that game mechanics don't apply to cut-scenes, but it still annoyed me).

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The fight always annoyed me since the BK was like "Here, take this blade, the only weapon capable of piercing my armor." and Greil was like "No way dude, let me use this axe which has a weapon disadvantage and is incapable of even damaging your armor." Greil deserved to lose hard (Yeah yeah I know that game mechanics don't apply to cut-scenes, but it still annoyed me).

Well, Didn't Greil slid his sword tendons long before the dual with BK? So all in all he wouldn't have been able to use Ragnel even if he wanted to and even if he knew it was the only weapon that could damage BK.

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The fight always annoyed me since the BK was like "Here, take this blade, the only weapon capable of piercing my armor." and Greil was like "No way dude, let me use this axe which has a weapon disadvantage and is incapable of even damaging your armor." Greil deserved to lose hard (Yeah yeah I know that game mechanics don't apply to cut-scenes, but it still annoyed me).

Also that Greil didn't know about the whole blessed armor thing <_<

I feel like y'all are giving the PoR BK too much credit with this. Remember this is a guy who stopped short of killing Ike, an opponent so inexperienced one half-hearted hit basically incapacitated him, literally only because staying any longer meant having to deal with Caineghis and who also threatened to "visit horrors" upon Mist if Greil didn't tell him where the medallion was. Sure you could claim the reason is only an excuse and that the threat was hollow, but there's no reason for him to save face in that situation, and nothing in the game gives any indication that he has any real sense of honor. He doesn't fight Greil in the fort because he's surrounded, and he only lets Ike live in their later encounters because, first, at the port, he was in no place to stop him since they were almost out of there, and second, he wanted to see how Ike would develop. Also, he had no problem with killing Ranulf, who also had literally no way of harming him and wasn't even more than a nuisance.

That was one of the things that bugged me about RD. PoR had all this great character development and writing that RD just pooped all over.

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Also that Greil didn't know about the whole blessed armor thing <_<

I feel like y'all are giving the PoR BK too much credit with this. Remember this is a guy who stopped short of killing Ike, an opponent so inexperienced one half-hearted hit basically incapacitated him, literally only because staying any longer meant having to deal with Caineghis and who also threatened to "visit horrors" upon Mist if Greil didn't tell him where the medallion was. Sure you could claim the reason is only an excuse and that the threat was hollow, but there's no reason for him to save face in that situation, and nothing in the game gives any indication that he has any real sense of honor. He doesn't fight Greil in the fort because he's surrounded, and he only lets Ike live in their later encounters because, first, at the port, he was in no place to stop him since they were almost out of there, and second, he wanted to see how Ike would develop. Also, he had no problem with killing Ranulf, who also had literally no way of harming him and wasn't even more than a nuisance.

That was one of the things that bugged me about RD. PoR had all this great character development and writing that RD just pooped all over.

No for sure the BK is an asshole a somewhat psychotic one at that but I do think he knows what he's doing. I mean he did pull off being Zelgius for awhile after all.

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No for sure the BK is an asshole a somewhat psychotic one at that but I do think he knows what he's doing. I mean he did pull off being Zelgius for awhile after all.

But being Zelgius isn't even that hard to be honest. Clearly he was already an established member of Begnion culture. So playing a role as himself isn't even that hard. And it's possible that Zelgius was in fact a spy against Daein. They may not have known Zelgius was under the guise of the black knight, but it's still easily explainable how this man got around. All you have to do to get into Daein with Ashnard is be tough and strong and you're guaranteed to rise through the ranks. So really, none of this is difficult, and actually makes the story of PoR make more sense. I mean, you really think they'd let someone as high ranked as Zelgius just disappear for long periods of time without complaint? No. Them knowing he's a double agent of sorts makes sense for things.

Plus, if RD has anything to do with it, Zelgius acting like he did in PoR isn't even entirely of his own plan. So it's possible that he did screw things up.

PoR BK is a villain through and through and definitely meant to kill Greil. Otherwise he wouldn't have even gotten into a scuffle with Greil in the first place, and literally would have told Greil "I won't fight you if you don't use this sword." Or at least told him that he HAD to use that weapon because it was the only way to defeat him in the armor. if you apply RD logic with PoR, the entire scene of Greil dying makes no sense. RD is like this strange retroactive perspective where they try to make BK out to be some sort of weird teacher for Ike... When the reality is that if BK really wanted Ike to learn, he would have just left Greil alive. Greil seeing Zelgius wouldn't have even ruined anything, because even if Greil DID recognize BK, there's not any real definitive evidence to prove BK = Zelgius. And even if this was a thing... It probably would have made for a better narrative. But I get it, they wanted Ike to lead the mercs rather than a man that was passed his prime (although an adult lord like that dies in combat and passes the torch on to his son would have been amazing).

Edited by Augestein

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No for sure the BK is an asshole a somewhat psychotic one at that but I do think he knows what he's doing. I mean he did pull off being Zelgius for awhile after all.

Oh, no disagreement on him being competent. I meant on the morality side, what with people saying things like he didn't mean to kill Greil or that he had resigned himself to the possibility or that there was some deeper reason for it. At best, he wanted to prove he was superior to Greil and had absolutely no qualms if Greil died; at worst, he fully intended to kill Greil just to prove he could. I personally lean towards the latter, especially since that's basically how he set up his showdown with Ike: One of us lives, one of us dies, screw you if you don't like it.

As Augustein said, he's a through-and-through villain in PoR, and then RD tries to get you to sympathize with him because no one ever loved him and he wanted to prove he was worthy. It seemed forced and never sat well with me, even going back to not liking the Zelg = BK fan theory when it was a fan theory (I feel old). Shinon's vomiting scene in PoR was more believably heartfelt and genuine.

Edited by bottlegnomes

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But being Zelgius isn't even that hard to be honest. Clearly he was already an established member of Begnion culture. So playing a role as himself isn't even that hard. And it's possible that Zelgius was in fact a spy against Daein. They may not have known Zelgius was under the guise of the black knight, but it's still easily explainable how this man got around. All you have to do to get into Daein with Ashnard is be tough and strong and you're guaranteed to rise through the ranks. So really, none of this is difficult, and actually makes the story of PoR make more sense. I mean, you really think they'd let someone as high ranked as Zelgius just disappear for long periods of time without complaint? No. Them knowing he's a double agent of sorts makes sense for things.

Plus, if RD has anything to do with it, Zelgius acting like he did in PoR isn't even entirely of his own plan. So it's possible that he did screw things up.

PoR BK is a villain through and through and definitely meant to kill Greil. Otherwise he wouldn't have even gotten into a scuffle with Greil in the first place, and literally would have told Greil "I won't fight you if you don't use this sword." Or at least told him that he HAD to use that weapon because it was the only way to defeat him in the armor. if you apply RD logic with PoR, the entire scene of Greil dying makes no sense. RD is like this strange retroactive perspective where they try to make BK out to be some sort of weird teacher for Ike... When the reality is that if BK really wanted Ike to learn, he would have just left Greil alive. Greil seeing Zelgius wouldn't have even ruined anything, because even if Greil DID recognize BK, there's not any real definitive evidence to prove BK = Zelgius. And even if this was a thing... It probably would have made for a better narrative. But I get it, they wanted Ike to lead the mercs rather than a man that was passed his prime (although an adult lord like that dies in combat and passes the torch on to his son would have been amazing).

Well yeah, but they never confirm that Begnion knew he was the Black Knight or assigned him as a double agent. Sanaki definitely didn't know and its debatable whether the senate did either. The only person that knew was Lehran as far as I know. I do think Greil figures it out in the fight scene when he says "that voice I remember you...think you can beat me the man who taught you to fight?"

I think RD meant to use the BK as motivation rather than a teacher. Yeah I know that Ike refers to him as his last teacher but when you step back and think about it the BK killing Greil and being leagues ahead of Ike in strength and swordcraft was the catalyst for Ike to become as strong as he did. Like you said if the BK had this roundabout conspiracy to get Ike stronger that would mean he would have planned this with Greil which given the circumstances doesn't make sense.

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Well yeah, but they never confirm that Begnion knew he was the Black Knight or assigned him as a double agent. Sanaki definitely didn't know and its debatable whether the senate did either. The only person that knew was Lehran as far as I know. I do think Greil figures it out in the fight scene when he says "that voice I remember you...think you can beat me the man who taught you to fight?"

I think RD meant to use the BK as motivation rather than a teacher. Yeah I know that Ike refers to him as his last teacher but when you step back and think about it the BK killing Greil and being leagues ahead of Ike in strength and swordcraft was the catalyst for Ike to become as strong as he did. Like you said if the BK had this roundabout conspiracy to get Ike stronger that would mean he would have planned this with Greil which given the circumstances doesn't make sense.

Sanaki didn't know much, we can't confirm nor deny the actions of the senate. We know Lehran knew, and we also know that he can pull strings as well. I'd wager the senate had some knowledge of this. Think about it: Micaiah's whole rise to power was done as a plan to get Pelleas to sigh the piece of paper to get the senators to have control over Daein, oust the Apostle from a position of power and take over the country and rule. If you rule that these guys KNEW that BK was Zelgius and an ace up their sleeve and a dog that pretty much universally obeyed things from the higher ups and Lehran, this plan... Is actually kind of smart and pretty foolproof. People naturally rally behind Micaiah, and the Black Knight is a legendary figure in Daein. Nothing looks suspicious to the common folk for any of this. And yes, Greil was definitely aware whom the BK is. He says as such.

RD did mean for BK to be a teacher, and it really doesn't work very well. Ike losing his teacher when he was still trying to refine the style and have it become half-baked is more hazardous to Ike than anything else, and makes it difficult to even ensure that Ike will even obtain the skill required to defeat or best Zelgius. Stefan even comments on this in his recruitment conversation where he officially joins the team. He states that Ike's style is "incomplete" and says that he'll help Ike to complete the style. Gameplay wise, this is why you are given the Occult skill. Even though anyone can equip it, it's clearly meant to be "Ike's" even though he can't use it right then. It's also the fact that Ike barely got to see the Black Knight fight in a method to observe the style. He arrives on the scene, Ike is clearly in a panicked state. That's hardly the best time to actually learn skills from someone. After that, Ike escapes the Black Knight and never actually sees him fight again until he reaches the castle later in the game. Having the BK be anything more than a motivation is pretty poorly planned out. Leaving the guy as a villain and a jerk works better, as you literally could have had him just want to destroy the world like Lehran. And it makes sense, the man could have become very nihilistic after all of the years of abuse that he's seen and taken from people over the years.

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The senate as a whole definitely didn't all know the BK was Zelgius, since, quote from Numida in their pre-battle conversation: "Damn you, ghost! If it weren't for you, i'd be free to do whatever I want with Daein!" (Which, by the way, doesn't make much sense to me either considering by the time the BK showed up, the Begnion occupation had already been destroyed)

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I call into question whether he intended to from the beginning. The Japanese Burger King was using completely formal language. If it was the "I have surpassed you, I intend to prove it by killing you" mentality, he would have talked down on Greil in the tone the English one implies by the end.

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SoC's point is interesting, and certainly something that hadn't occurred to me. The English team may have reinterpreted the scene from the original Japanese; it would be the only thing, as, from what I understand, they played up the romantic aspect of Ike and Elincia's relationship a lot more. In that case, maybe the BK was less of a massive cock-breath in the JP version, which would mean less of a tone shift from PoR to RD. Do you happen to remember about the JP version of fighting Ike then and threatening Mist?

That said, the way he's presented in the English version is certainly at odds with his RD portrayal.

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I call into question whether he intended to from the beginning. The Japanese Burger King was using completely formal language. If it was the "I have surpassed you, I intend to prove it by killing you" mentality, he would have talked down on Greil in the tone the English one implies by the end.

I do have a question about that, does he always use formal language in the Japanese version? Or does he actually talk down to people, like say, Ike?

The senate as a whole definitely didn't all know the BK was Zelgius, since, quote from Numida in their pre-battle conversation: "Damn you, ghost! If it weren't for you, i'd be free to do whatever I want with Daein!" (Which, by the way, doesn't make much sense to me either considering by the time the BK showed up, the Begnion occupation had already been destroyed)

I can definitely believe that the entire senate didn't know BK = Zelgius. However, Lekain? that's right down his alley to have done this and manipulated others to do his bidding considering what RD attributes Lekain to have done. Honestly, he's a better villain than Sephiran, because at least he actually does stuff.

Edited by Augestein

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(Which, by the way, doesn't make much sense to me either considering by the time the BK showed up, the Begnion occupation had already been destroyed)

Not quite. In fact, what was left of the Begnion occupation force was just about to kill Micaiah when the Black Knight showed up.

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I do have a question about that, does he always use formal language in the Japanese version? Or does he actually talk down to people, like say, Ike?

He talks down to Ike. He even says "kisama".

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Not quite. In fact, what was left of the Begnion occupation force was just about to kill Micaiah when the Black Knight showed up.

True, but at that point the occupation was about to be over, no matter what would happen to Micaiah. The reason Jarod attacked Micaiah in the first place is because he knew he was going to die, so he wanted to take her down with him. So from Numida's perspective, the Black Knight's involvement really made no difference. He should be pissed at Micaiah, but he doesn't even recognise her when they fight.

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At least the disconnect of BK's character can be headcanon-explained, there's nothing at all that could possibly fix the hole made by RD's flashback scene that reveals that he knew Mist would most likely be holding onto the medallion. Now everything he did in PoR makes no sense and is pointless.

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