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Let's talk about millennials.


feplus
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The purpose of labels is not to perfectly characterize everyone within that label.

1. Labels help with succinct communication.

2. Labels are a good starting point for observing group trends.

I already said this. eclipse doesn't like labels because he wants to preserve individuality. But everyone fits roughly into labels, voluntary and involuntary ones.

Labels are imperfect. Labels serve a useful purpose. A strong aversion to labels indicates something distinctly millennial about a person's psychology.

Bolded part is trivially false, since, for example, people who don't believe in God are perfectly characterized with the following label: atheist.

Since "millennial" isn't a label which concerns people's beliefs, it cannot preserve individuality. "Atheist" however can preserve individuality. So, no analogy can be made.

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"Atheist" does not perfectly describe atheists. What kind of atheist are you? Are you an ignostic? Are you a skeptic? Do you believe there are strong positive reasons to reject God's existence?

I no longer have any idea what you're trying to accomplish here beyond contrarianism.

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I find the labels thing very strange as I see people exceedingly willing to label people with terms like 'CIS-gendered', 'sexist', 'mysoginistic', 'rape culture', and so-forth all the time. Heck, I didn't even really join GG so much as I was informed I was on their side before I even knew it existed simple because I believed game media shouldn't be corrupt. Now-a-days simply not believing every rape accusation immediately seems to get you labeled 'anti-feminist' even if said rape is impossible. 'George Washington raped me in a dream! Now all of America must pay be back!" "That isn't rape." "ANTI-FEMINIST WOMAN HATER!"

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Bolded part is trivially false, since, for example, people who don't believe in God are perfectly characterized with the following label: atheist.

Since "millennial" isn't a label which concerns people's beliefs, it cannot preserve individuality. "Atheist" however can preserve individuality. So, no analogy can be made.

No one ever said that the terminology was supposed to as accurately describe someone as terms such as "atheist." However, it doesn't fail to be a useful term simply because it's a larger generalization, so long as those communicating understand how it is being used. I don't think feplus ever said that, "he is atheist" is as descriptive of a person's beliefs as, "he is a millenial" is. Simply that studies tend to show that people of this generation tend to behave differently to those from earlier generations on the whole. It's purposely not descriptive on a singular level, the term analyzes a generation.

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God, this is all serious? Have fucking mercy on my worthless hide, there are people here honestly getting into this shit. I have to admit I thought essays about millenials (and, it is to be presumed, their flaws) were such a marginal, insubstantial enterprise as to almost doubt their existence entirely.

Do we have to talk about millenials? At least the way I'm assuming we are meant to, from the first page of responses snowballing in KIDS THESE DAYS! negativity? Do we really fucking have to? Can we get all the other generational stereotypes out of the way first, just to draw the sheer misanthropic pointlessness of age group bickering into the center of the spotlight? Then the topic could at least be called half self-conscious of what it invites.

There's so much that could actually lead to an interesting, productive, fun-for-me discussion, just briefly touched on in the bit of the thread I've managed to seriously read, and yet it speaks to the mass of bile that so much else in it has allowed my craw to stick in itself that I'd rather prove the generalization's disingenuous point, or rather one among its many, and not even fucking start.

I'd feel at least a little bit guilty about writing off a whole topic where somebody at least went to the trouble of posting some links, but what a draining first page to overload my sense of confirmation bias this thread has offered.

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God, this is all serious? Have fucking mercy on my worthless hide, there are people here honestly getting into this shit. I have to admit I thought essays about millenials (and, it is to be presumed, their flaws) were such a marginal, insubstantial enterprise as to almost doubt their existence entirely.

Do we have to talk about millenials? At least the way I'm assuming we are meant to, from the first page of responses snowballing in KIDS THESE DAYS! negativity? Do we really fucking have to? Can we get all the other generational stereotypes out of the way first, just to draw the sheer misanthropic pointlessness of age group bickering into the center of the spotlight? Then the topic could at least be called half self-conscious of what it invites.

There's so much that could actually lead to an interesting, productive, fun-for-me discussion, just briefly touched on in the bit of the thread I've managed to seriously read, and yet it speaks to the mass of bile that so much else in it has allowed my craw to stick in itself that I'd rather prove the generalization's disingenuous point, or rather one among its many, and not even fucking start.

I'd feel at least a little bit guilty about writing off a whole topic where somebody at least went to the trouble of posting some links, but what a draining first page to overload my sense of confirmation bias this thread has offered.

Rehab continues his trend of always posting all the correct opinions on every topic!!

One generation has always complained about the next for basically the entire history of recorded civilization, and there are always just enough vaguely true aspects of their complaints to make some people in the latter start to believe it out of edge or alienation or what have you, but it's never really been particularly true. Incredibly enough, humanity has continued to survive, and dare I say even improve, and I doubt the attitude of "millennial" is going to change that.

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Also lol @ baby boomers. They're the greediest, most entitled generation and hearing them jerk off about how kids today just don't wanna work haaaaaaard is just laughable. Their parents are the ones who put in the hard work. Their parents are the ones who passed and funded the New Deal, who fought in and won World War II, who had top income tax brackets over 90%, who passed and funded all those social safety nets the Boomers have indulged in and yet refused to pay for. They've wanted everything their parents set up all while demanding tax cuts for themselves and programs that they don't think benefit them be slashed.

If there's any generation with a "something for nothing" mentality, it's our parents' generation, not ours.

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I don't understand what is wrong with talking about millennials. If it is just to say 'kids these days!', then the topic doesn't deserve attention, but instead it doesn't appeal to that. It seems feplus' intention was to discuss about how millenials generally are and bring out the issues they have, not brag about Ye Glorious Olde Days. If the generalization on millennials is false, I've yet to see evidence.

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@Rehab: You are obviously passionate about this topic being a non-issue. I invite you to explain why with specifics and evidence.

says the person who made an assertion citing barely any specifics and zero evidence for what he perceives to be the cause for millenial problems

i agree that millenials are too invested in studying useless topics in university; a prime example is the creator of this topic.

If the generalization on millennials is false, I've yet to see evidence.

burden of proof is not on me to show that one generation is very similar to a previous generation

Edited by dondon151
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@dondon: I could report you for hostility, but I worry the moderators would remove your delectable post. Are you genuinely under the impression that philosophy is not a profitable degree? Are you incapable of a brief Google search?

My opening post has plenty of sources. It is reasonable to expect those who challenge it to provide sources in return.

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@dondon: I could report you for hostility, but I worry the moderators would remove your delectable post. Are you genuinely under the impression that philosophy is not a profitable degree? Are you incapable of a brief Google search?

My opening post has plenty of sources. It is reasonable to expect those who challenge it to provide sources in return.

:smug: :smug: :smug:

You linked to what amount to a couple economic statistics and then make no attempt to actually connect them to your point, and the rest of your post is baseless conjecture about internet and social media. Other than that, you are making the argument that people have made pretty much every single generation (and most new communication technologies) since the beginning of recorded history. Generational conflict is a thing. People reacting strangely to change is a thing.

Edited by Defeatist Elitist
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Re-read the opening post again. Its entire purpose is to draw connections between the data and my personal observations.

You are free to accuse me of being a nostalgist, but this is a lazy approach. Any criticism of the current generation could be framed that way. It's unproductive.

And smug faces? I'm asking people to remain civil, stay on-topic, and make sound arguments. That's not smug.

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Most obvious is the rise of the internet and social media. This leads to more frequent, but also more superficial, social interaction. Because face-to-face communication is rarer, people do not develop the interpersonal skills they need. It also emphasizes the importance of image over substance; better to appear a certain way than actually be that way.

Second is how our generation was victim of a relentless self-esteem campaign. The Everyone Gets A Trophy movement was, I think, deeply damaging. We were coddled, told we were snowflakes; no one limited our ambitions or gave us a realistic depiction of the world. "You can do anything!" is an attitude that, ironically, has led many millennials to doing nothing.

It also explains our generation's general aversion to criticism and reluctance to pursue profitable career choices. Think about the rise of safe spaces, trigger warnings, and softly enforced thought crimes. These have been introduced under the guise of tolerance, but they're more likely a means of protecting millennials from uncomfortable challenges. Here's a good article on the subject. And the false belief that the world is everyone's oyster leads people to spend hundreds of thousands on degrees like sociology, anthropology, women's studies, and other "soft" disciplines. Admirable pursuits, but not financially viable for most.

Thirdly, we live in the wake of the Cultural Revolution and are suffering its consequences more than any prior generation. The reason superficial irreligiosity and casual sex are on the rise (and marriage is on the decline) is a byproduct of mixing radical new social norms with millennials' narcissism and hedonism. Tinder and Grindr are applications designed to bypass inconvenient personal interaction and get to the good bits with naughty bits. It's embarrassing. New Atheism has carved out a sizable space in public consciousness despite being ridiculed even by atheist philosophers.

Why? What explains all this? Seems to me that our generation is defined by shallowness. Shallowness with regards to personal relationships, spirituality, commitments, job prospects, and our entitlements. I am very concerned.

You are my hero. I couldn't have said this better.

I have more friends who are in their thirties or above than I do with adults my age (I'm in my early twenties).

Technology has indeed reduced the quality of relationships. I've observed a date between a man and a woman at a coffee shop, and the two would occasionally pause and check their iPhones. What the heck. I would never pull out my phone in the middle of a conversation lest there were an emergency.

If I did, I would excuse myself and offer my apologies for the interruption. Again, I am not extrapolating this one interaction I noticed to the entire millennial generation, but I have noticed more and more of these people glued to their phones than interacting with others.

Don't even get me started on the Tumblr 'Social Justice Warriors', college safe spaces, or the new feminist thought police. Trigger warnings and safe spaces are infantilizing our youth. They can't handle any opinion that doesn't agree with theirs. Look at Christina Hoff-Summers and her talks at Oberlin College. The people there were extremely rude to her, calling her a "rape-denialist" and holding up protesting signs during her talk just because she believes that college women are not as likely to be raped as other women (who are worse off and in bad neighborhoods) and that she believes the gender wage gap is a myth. Hoff-Summers is a LIBERAL and former philosophy professor who identifies as a feminist! These kids (I refrain from calling them adults) can't handle someone else's beliefs if it doesn't coincide with their own! I thought college was a time to challenge your beliefs. Now it's a breeding ground for entitled individuals who develop a skewed perspective of the world.

As a gay man, I have been bullied for my sexuality in the past. Do I need safe spaces and trigger warnings? No, I had to overcome those bad experiences.

This is very true to me because I graduated from a very liberal, private college where I was surrounded by this.

Sorry for the rant. I don't want to say that I am better than these people -- I just want to see these people grow up and put their big-kid panties on and face life as a true adult.

EDIT: Holy moly, I plopped right in the mist of the "kids these days" debate.

Well, I volunteered in healthcare for almost 2000 hours as an MA of sorts and I have met and seen hundreds of patients. I have overheard off-topic conversations with some millennials who complain that they cannot find meaningful relationships because their partners are only in it for the casual sex. Again, this is personal experience and not the most sound form of evidence but I think this shows some generational change can be deleterious.

Edited by Leif
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thanks for the anecdotes, leify-boy

one might as well replace your whole rant with a picture of an old man shouting at a cloud and it would have just about as much content

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thanks for the anecdotes, leify-boy

one might as well replace your whole rant with a picture of an old man shouting at a cloud and it would have just about as much content

Ouch.

Well the Christina Hoff-Summers incident I referenced is an article I discovered a while ago.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/04/22/christina-hoff-sommers-lecture-leads-to-trigger-warnings-and-safe-spaces-at-oberlin-and-georgetown/

Again, it's not an article with statistical evidence, but merely something to provoke discussion.

I acknowledged that my anecdotes hold no concrete evidence (because I honestly don't have the time now to write an essay on this).

Change in inevitable, it's a given. However, generational change can be both good and bad.

Edited by Leif
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^LOL at using Breitbart as source. They're exactly the same as SJWs, except they're on the opposite side.

It's also funny that people think there are "useless" subjects at college. If money was an issue, everyone would be doctors or lawyers. Surely disciplines like Sociology and Anthropology, which like it or not are science like astronomy or physics, aren't "unimportant"... Slamming social science disciplines as "useless" is typical conservative drivel.

Edited by Cerberus87
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Don't even get me started on the Tumblr 'Social Justice Warriors', college safe spaces, or the new feminist thought police. Trigger warnings and safe spaces are infantilizing our youth.

As a gay man, I have been bullied for my sexuality in the past. Do I need safe spaces and trigger warnings? No, I had to overcome those bad experiences.

i don't get this. all a safe space is is a space where you're guaranteed (at least they're typically advertised as such) to not be judged/made to feel uncomfortable/shameful/etc. for who you are. i don't get how you could disagree with something like that.

you're twenty-something. are you trying to pretend your fellow homosexuals haven't also overcome their experiences, or are currently in the fight just because some of them want to join support groups? (a safe space is just a support group.)

Edited by Phoenix Wright
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^LOL at using Breitbart as source. They're exactly the same as SJWs, except they're on the opposite side.

It's also funny that people think there are "useless" subjects at college. If money was an issue, everyone would be doctors or lawyers. Surely disciplines like Sociology and Anthropology, which like it or not are science like astronomy or physics, aren't "unimportant"... Slamming social science disciplines as "useless" is typical conservative drivel.

There are useless degrees though. Especially when taught by poor teachers or poorly re-enforced by the college itself. ESPECIALLY if it goes out of its way to teach outright lies. The problem with 'gender studies' is that these courses have a massive tendency to alter the facts or outright lie to push an agenda. It would be on-par with going to study math only to have it be about how the great and glorious leader knows all the digits of Pi while Obama can't even count to 10... all without ever learning what Pi actually is or why it matters in the first place.

So yes, useless degrees do exist; especially when their goal is to do little more than brainwash people. Especially when you realize that there are actual college classes like 'Smash Bros Theory'

http://www.oberlin.edu/stuorg/exco/students/oldcourses/spring06.htm

So, yea. There are useless degrees.

i don't get this. all a safe space is is a space where you're guaranteed (at least they're typically advertised as such) to not be judged/made to feel uncomfortable/shameful/etc. for who you are. i don't get how you could disagree with something like that.

It's roughly on-par with hiding in the closet. Eventually you have to leave said 'safe space' to go about your everyday life. While it might feel nice to have a place to crawl back to, at the end of the day it's on-par with hiding in a closet because you fear the school bully will break into your house to bully you.

That's not to mention that many of these spaces are specifically for... shall we say... 'privileged ideologies'? What about men who get harassed or mocked for being straight? Do they get a safe space? What about men who are afraid of being raped? Do they get to enter the safe space for that? Do white people get it when they're afraid of black, hispanic, whatever people on campus? That's not to mention that, ultimately, it's just a room.

You're hanging a 'no girlz aloud' sign on your treehouse and expecting to be taken seriously by adults.

Edited by Snowy_One
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There are useless degrees though. Especially when taught by poor teachers or poorly re-enforced by the college itself. ESPECIALLY if it goes out of its way to teach outright lies. The problem with 'gender studies' is that these courses have a massive tendency to alter the facts or outright lie to push an agenda. It would be on-par with going to study math only to have it be about how the great and glorious leader knows all the digits of Pi while Obama can't even count to 10... all without ever learning what Pi actually is or why it matters in the first place.

So yes, useless degrees do exist; especially when their goal is to do little more than brainwash people. Especially when you realize that there are actual college classes like 'Smash Bros Theory'

http://www.oberlin.edu/stuorg/exco/students/oldcourses/spring06.htm

So, yea. There are useless degrees.

as someone who's at a particularly liberal university, and has taken classes where what you describe is somewhat true (meaning the professor had all sorts of bias, but the content of the course ranged from not so much to none at all), i'd like to ask for sources that back up this claim? that link is dead for me.

edit: also, so we're clear, weird and wacky classes like that exist so that kids aren't bored af while completing gen eds. i've never taken it, and won't but my school has a class on disney (which is actually somewhat intensive) and it's a helluva lot better than most classes offered for the specific gen ed. classes like disney, smash theory, etc. are cheap, easy, and fun. those should never (and i'd bet don't) serve as courses that help a student obtain a degree for their major.

It's roughly on-par with hiding in the closet. Eventually you have to leave said 'safe space' to go about your everyday life. While it might feel nice to have a place to crawl back to, at the end of the day it's on-par with hiding in a closet because you fear the school bully will break into your house to bully you.

That's not to mention that many of these spaces are specifically for... shall we say... 'privileged ideologies'? What about men who get harassed or mocked for being straight? Do they get a safe space? What about men who are afraid of being raped? Do they get to enter the safe space for that? Do white people get it when they're afraid of black, hispanic, whatever people on campus? That's not to mention that, ultimately, it's just a room.

You're hanging a 'no girlz aloud' sign on your treehouse and expecting to be taken seriously by adults.

no it isn't. it's more on par with aa or na stuff. people in narcotics anonymous know the struggles of being an addict, and within the group one is not judged, meant to feel ashamed, etc. it's nothing like you describe.

many safe-spaces are inclusive of all types of people.

seriously do you guys think people live real life like tumblr or something lol.

Edited by Phoenix Wright
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@Snowy: You should be cautious in describing intellectual pursuits as "useless." Many degree options are financially unwise, but any discipline contributes to our total understanding of the world in some way.

@Phoenix: What are your thoughts on "safe spaces" / support groups that exclude minorities? Presumably you think it's acceptable to have a no-whites safe space; what about a no-blacks safe space?

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as someone who's at a particularly liberal university, and has taken classes where what you describe is somewhat true (meaning the professor had all sorts of bias, but the content of the course ranged from not so much to none at all), i'd like to ask for sources that back up this claim? that link is dead for me.

​It's a link to an old college course offering list in which they list 'Smash Bros theory' as a valid class. It's... pretty much what you think it is.

no it isn't. it's more on par with aa or na stuff. people in narcotics anonymous know the struggles of being an addict, and within the group one is not judged, meant to feel ashamed, etc. it's nothing like you describe.

many safe-spaces are inclusive of all types of people.

seriously do you guys think people live real life like tumblr or something lol.

The thing is that those groups are groups that are open to everyone more-or-less and, while designed to address a specific problem, are inclusive of everyone who has said problem regardless of any physical or sex complications, more-or-less. That's not to mention that they don't claim a room is a 'safe zone' but rather have designated times and meetings and are not unknown to do things as a group. That's not the same thing at all to reserving a room that might be a 'rape safe-space' then throwing out a man under the notion that 'only women can be raped'. Or people who feel discriminated against despite a lack of any actual discrimination going on. Just because they feel someone MIGHT be doing so.

And no, I do not. I had the grace of a normal college with decently smart people and no one trying to force an agenda.

@Snowy: You should be cautious in describing intellectual pursuits as "useless." Many degree options are financially unwise, but any discipline contributes to our total understanding of the world in some way.
I do not judge use by income. If I did being a teacher would probably be one of the most useless jobs around. But studying in a degree that basically does little more than teach how men are wrong/evil and oppress women/minorities through such things as 'evidence which is purely a white-mans construction so that they could claim that they were always right in an argument'... well...

(Yes, I admit that that is from tumbler and I have no clue as to if the person went to college or not, but I think you can get where I'm coming from regardless.)
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@Phoenix: What are your thoughts on "safe spaces" / support groups that exclude minorities? Presumably you think it's acceptable to have a no-whites safe space; what about a no-blacks safe space?

though i am arab, i'm also irish and am white as snow. when a person looks at me, what they see is an irishman.

i am allowed (and regularly attend) in one of the "safe spaces" at my uni. i think it's better to be accepting of all people, so long as those that attend aren't assholes. like i said, safe-spaces are just support groups. people of all walks have struggles than everyone else can identify with.

now, support groups also exist to tackle certain issues and allow only people that have that particular experience. those are cool too.

​ It's a link to an old college course offering list in which they list 'Smash Bros theory' as a valid class. It's... pretty much what you think it is.

read my edit

The thing is that those groups are groups that are open to everyone more-or-less and, while designed to address a specific problem, are inclusive of everyone who has said problem regardless of any physical or sex complications, more-or-less. That's not to mention that they don't claim a room is a 'safe zone' but rather have designated times and meetings and are not unknown to do things as a group. That's not the same thing at all to reserving a room that might be a 'rape safe-space' then throwing out a man under the notion that 'only women can be raped'. Or people who feel discriminated against despite a lack of any actual discrimination going on. Just because they feel someone MIGHT be doing so.

where does such a "safe space" exist? i only know of deluded people that think only women can be raped. an "actual" safe space wouldn't be like that. just like an "actual" aa meeting wouldn't kick out female alcoholics.

And no, I do not. I had the grace of a normal college with decently smart people and no one trying to force an agenda.

lol, that's impossible. unless you were surrounded by robots, professors, students, the school itself, all have an agenda to push. some universities (santa cruz, berkeley, cornell, etc.) are just a little more in-your-face about it.

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I understand the logic behind safe spaces. You want to deal with difficult issues by talking to people who can personally relate with those struggles. The advice of an "outsider" is less insightful and so less valuable.

But I'd rather us trend towards inclusivity. I am a minority in many respects, and I would not mind in the slightest for a person in "the majority" to offer me advice. You don't always need personal experience with an issue to make a contribution.

My main gripe, however, is that "safe space" is so often a euphemism for "echo chamber."

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