Kiseki Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Actually, quite frankly, how is anybody on our S list who isn't Rosaluma any better than Yoshi? People just don't ever use Yoshi. (?) I personally feel that Yoshi could also be one of the best in the game. It's just that no one has really pushed the character to his full potential yet atm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 People just don't ever use Yoshi. (?) I personally feel that Yoshi could also be one of the best in the game. It's just that no one has really pushed the character to his full potential yet atm. Yoshi has some glaring flaws, like his gimpable recovery and his grab being one of the laggiest on missing. He's overall a really solid fighter, but he just lacks stuff the other top tiers have. He isn't super safe on shields for the most part either. Among other things. I seriously don't get the community's obsession with Sheik. Seriously: "wins literally every matchup"? Are you kidding me? Tell that to my Charizard--I don't think it got the memo. And it's not just Sheik either! Sonic? Pikachu? Look, guys, I get it, I know that speed is good and all, but a good character needs to have some KO moves, too! Actually, quite frankly, how is anybody on our S list who isn't Rosaluma any better than Yoshi? Sheik has the tools to win in the neutral game against nearly every character, in skilled hands she goes even further beyond that and becomes a threat that is very difficulty for any character to fight against. Speed isn't what gives characters like Sheik, Sonic and Pikachu edges alone, its the fact they have very good off stage games, very solid grab games, some safe ways to KO, they win neutral quite often, they have a number of advanced techniques. Their movesets are pretty lagless, they just have good tools, great frame data, safe moves vs shields. Speed isn't all they have, a number of higher tiers don't have super amazing speed (see Luigi, Ike, Villager etc). The 3 of them in particular also have excellent gimpping games which fixes their on stage KO issues they may face, but I think you're overstating it If speed was literally everything then what is preventing characters like Toon Link and Metaknight to be any higher then mid-tier? Charizard is a fun character, I get where you're coming from. Zard has a good series of KO moves, some good grabs now, some actual follow ups, but he is still a heavy character who is easy to juggle and doesn't have fast enough moves to content with people at times, his jab and fire breath are nice neutral tools but.. He relies on reads currently and in good hands Zard can be a solid fighter, I dno how far a singles Zard can get though. Doubles has been seeing some success for him though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Tell that to my Charizard--I don't think it got the memo.I beat a Sheik with Zelda once. Zelda OP, Sheik trash tier. A tier list doesn't tell you "[Character A] will beat [Character B] every time." It tells you, in general, which characters are more likely to win in the right hands. Can a skilled Charizard beat a skilled Sheik? Certainly. But that alone doesn't change anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 OKAY, THEORY TIME Jedi (and others) have said a lot of this, and likely many of you know this stuff already, but... In Smash (and other fighting games), there are three states the game can be in. 1) Neutral, in which neither player has the advantage. This is the most common gamestate. 2) A state of advantage. This comes in many forms: I could have my opponent in the middle of a combo, I could be juggling them, they might be offtage, or it could be as simple as positional advantage (stage control). This is the gamestate you want to be in most often, obviously. 3) A state of disadvantage. Here, your opponent is in a position of advantage (see above), and your goal is to either reverse the situation (not easy, or always possible), or to reset the gamestate back to neutral. A more detailed (and probably more correct, in parts) writeup can be found in this post on Smashboards; it's a really good read, I highly recommend it. SO. The reasons that Sheik is so good are: a) Sheik wins neutral. She has fast, low commitment tools with which to apply safe (!) pressure to her opponent. Fair is safe on shield, needles are one of the best projectiles in the game, etc. She is also fast, has a good grab, and a multitude of movement options. Wavebounced Needles are great for microspacing (also good for mixing up your trajectory in the air), etc. etc. b) Not only does she win neutral (a), but when she does so, she puts herself in a position where she can capitalize heavily. She has an amazing combo game, an amazing combo game out of throw (which is huge in this game, given how strong an option shielding is), etc. She can combo her opponent offstage, which puts them in an edgeguard situation; Sheik has an excellent edgeguarding game. Bouncing Fish, needles, fairs, nairs, bairs, etc. She is one of the best characters in the game at edgeguarding. c) Lastly, she has exceptional tools to easily reset to neutral from a disadvantageous position. Her recovery is phenomenal: walljump, wallcling, Bouncing Fish, and Vanish not only teleports but also has a jump at the beginning, with invincibility for much of it. When being juggled, Bouncing Fish enables her to completely change her position and momentum. etc. Sheik is really good at all times of the game. Yeah, she struggles with killing outright. But she piles on enough damage and is safe enough that at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 OKAY, THEORY TIME Jedi (and others) have said a lot of this, and likely many of you know this stuff already, but... In Smash (and other fighting games), there are three states the game can be in. 1) Neutral, in which neither player has the advantage. This is the most common gamestate. 2) A state of advantage. This comes in many forms: I could have my opponent in the middle of a combo, I could be juggling them, they might be offtage, or it could be as simple as positional advantage (stage control). This is the gamestate you want to be in most often, obviously. 3) A state of disadvantage. Here, your opponent is in a position of advantage (see above), and your goal is to either reverse the situation (not easy, or always possible), or to reset the gamestate back to neutral. A more detailed (and probably more correct, in parts) writeup can be found in this post on Smashboards; it's a really good read, I highly recommend it. SO. The reasons that Sheik is so good are: a) Sheik wins neutral. She has fast, low commitment tools with which to apply safe (!) pressure to her opponent. Fair is safe on shield, needles are one of the best projectiles in the game, etc. She is also fast, has a good grab, and a multitude of movement options. Wavebounced Needles are great for microspacing (also good for mixing up your trajectory in the air), etc. etc. b) Not only does she win neutral (a), but when she does so, she puts herself in a position where she can capitalize heavily. She has an amazing combo game, an amazing combo game out of throw (which is huge in this game, given how strong an option shielding is), etc. She can combo her opponent offstage, which puts them in an edgeguard situation; Sheik has an excellent edgeguarding game. Bouncing Fish, needles, fairs, nairs, bairs, etc. She is one of the best characters in the game at edgeguarding. c) Lastly, she has exceptional tools to easily reset to neutral from a disadvantageous position. Her recovery is phenomenal: walljump, wallcling, Bouncing Fish, and Vanish not only teleports but also has a jump at the beginning, with invincibility for much of it. When being juggled, Bouncing Fish enables her to completely change her position and momentum. etc. Sheik is really good at all times of the game. Yeah, she struggles with killing outright. But she piles on enough damage and is safe enough that at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Can we add this to the OP? It's really well written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Can we add this to the OP? It's really well written. I mean we probably shouldn't add the "and therefore Sheik is the best" part to the OP, since everyone can easily come to that conclusion on their own that would bias the voting. e: although it might be useful to show an example thought process? might be better done for a mid-tier where we can talk about weaknesses as well, tho Edited August 14, 2015 by Euklyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) OKAY, THEORY TIME Jedi (and others) have said a lot of this, and likely many of you know this stuff already, but... In Smash (and other fighting games), there are three states the game can be in. 1) Neutral, in which neither player has the advantage. This is the most common gamestate. 2) A state of advantage. This comes in many forms: I could have my opponent in the middle of a combo, I could be juggling them, they might be offtage, or it could be as simple as positional advantage (stage control). This is the gamestate you want to be in most often, obviously. 3) A state of disadvantage. Here, your opponent is in a position of advantage (see above), and your goal is to either reverse the situation (not easy, or always possible), or to reset the gamestate back to neutral. A more detailed (and probably more correct, in parts) writeup can be found in this post on Smashboards; it's a really good read, I highly recommend it. SO. The reasons that Sheik is so good are: a) Sheik wins neutral. She has fast, low commitment tools with which to apply safe (!) pressure to her opponent. Fair is safe on shield, needles are one of the best projectiles in the game, etc. She is also fast, has a good grab, and a multitude of movement options. Wavebounced Needles are great for microspacing (also good for mixing up your trajectory in the air), etc. etc. b) Not only does she win neutral (a), but when she does so, she puts herself in a position where she can capitalize heavily. She has an amazing combo game, an amazing combo game out of throw (which is huge in this game, given how strong an option shielding is), etc. She can combo her opponent offstage, which puts them in an edgeguard situation; Sheik has an excellent edgeguarding game. Bouncing Fish, needles, fairs, nairs, bairs, etc. She is one of the best characters in the game at edgeguarding. c) Lastly, she has exceptional tools to easily reset to neutral from a disadvantageous position. Her recovery is phenomenal: walljump, wallcling, Bouncing Fish, and Vanish not only teleports but also has a jump at the beginning, with invincibility for much of it. When being juggled, Bouncing Fish enables her to completely change her position and momentum. etc. Sheik is really good at all times of the game. Yeah, she struggles with killing outright. But she piles on enough damage and is safe enough that at the end of the day it doesn't matter. this is amazing. for this, i would waifu you if i could. it makes me wonder if you are related to me, seeing as you made such an amazing post like i would have. keep up the good work. <3 sheik is also good because *cues MC hammer* doc is really underrated. Edited August 14, 2015 by PichuMaster3000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 this is amazing. for this, i would waifu you if i could. it makes me wonder if you are related to me, seeing as you made such an amazing post like i would have. keep up the good work. <3 sheik is also good because *cues MC hammer* aww stop it, you. you’ll make me blush <3 (I mean the first part of it is just what I remember from the post I linked to, and the second part is just articulating sheik's strengths) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnell Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Japan plays way more patiently and carefully than we do; Sonic is good at not taking risks and fits such a patient playstyle iirc, but it doesn't work so well in our meta. agreed about Rosa > Sheik being kinda wtf the sole fact that Sheik is generally agreed to win the Rosa MU should put her over Rosa, since they're considered basically the only competition for each other. but Sheik also wins literally every matchup. there's really no way that Rosa > Sheik You are right in terms of Sonic. He definitely is the ultimate safe character, which fits Japan's playstyle. However I don't think he's completely incompatible with our meta. Granted, he hasn't been top 8'ing national tourneys as frequently recently, but there are almost always at least 2 Sonics in the top 15-20 of any given major tourney. Further, it's almost always different Sonics at the top of tournaments, so it's not a situation like with DKWill where everybody is pretty sure the character is still iffy but is piloted by an amazing player. Even many of the other high tier characters only have 1 really notable player, like ESAM to Pika and Ally to Mario. Sonic doesn't have one single standout champion, but there are a dozen or so solid Sonics out there. So I still think he deserves top tier, if only the bottom of the tier. What I really want to see more of is the Mii Fighters. Seems like a lot of pros are afraid to main them due to threats of bans/restrictions. Outside of tourney drama, though, the recent patches have been very kind to the Miis. I've seen some great Swordfighter gameplay from Trela, and Gunner is a super aggravating camper. Brawler is obviously amazing, at least with upb2, but even he is still unexplored. I feel like a lot of their low positioning on tier lists is due to their history pre-patches and due to general negligence/fear of players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 You are right in terms of Sonic. He definitely is the ultimate safe character, which fits Japan's playstyle. However I don't think he's completely incompatible with our meta. Granted, he hasn't been top 8'ing national tourneys as frequently recently, but there are almost always at least 2 Sonics in the top 15-20 of any given major tourney. Further, it's almost always different Sonics at the top of tournaments, so it's not a situation like with DKWill where everybody is pretty sure the character is still iffy but is piloted by an amazing player. Even many of the other high tier characters only have 1 really notable player, like ESAM to Pika and Ally to Mario. Sonic doesn't have one single standout champion, but there are a dozen or so solid Sonics out there. So I still think he deserves top tier, if only the bottom of the tier. As a Sonic player, he stands out to me as a character who can be safe or super aggressive, I actually play him pretty aggressively, which throws people off by default. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 The difference between Rosalina and Sheik could probably be negated by literally a single vote. It's not that one's ranked significantly higher than the other, otherwise they wouldn't be in the same tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnell Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 As a Sonic player, he stands out to me as a character who can be safe or super aggressive, I actually play him pretty aggressively, which throws people off by default. Honestly, I would call the best Sonics super safe AND aggressive. Sonic has the good fortune to be able to dive at the opponent to apply pressure with virtually no commitment. If, at any second, the opponent shields or looks to be counterattacking, Sonic can just zip right back out unharmed. He's a constant annoyance who never lets up the pressure, and lays on reasonable damage if his opponent ever flubs their shield/dodge. This is especially true with customs and Hammer Spin Dash, which boosts his hit-and-run game even more. Fighting Sonic just requires a lot of patience and consistency, since you are likely playing defense more than offense. Sonic's downside is that he isn't as overwhelmingly threatening as someone like Sheik or ZSS. Especially with his bthrow nerfed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Honestly, I would call the best Sonics super safe AND aggressive. Sonic has the good fortune to be able to dive at the opponent to apply pressure with virtually no commitment. If, at any second, the opponent shields or looks to be counterattacking, Sonic can just zip right back out unharmed. He's a constant annoyance who never lets up the pressure, and lays on reasonable damage if his opponent ever flubs their shield/dodge. This is especially true with customs and Hammer Spin Dash, which boosts his hit-and-run game even more. Fighting Sonic just requires a lot of patience and consistency, since you are likely playing defense more than offense. Sonic's downside is that he isn't as overwhelmingly threatening as someone like Sheik or ZSS. Especially with his bthrow nerfed. He also funnily enough has trouble approaching for all his Speed, he lacks some consistencies in getting into peoples Zones if they have good zoning tools. Also can be somewhat hard to land as Sonic he doesn't have the best air to ground options. Good air options, but not good air to ground options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 The difference between Rosalina and Sheik could probably be negated by literally a single vote. It's not that one's ranked significantly higher than the other, otherwise they wouldn't be in the same tier.I mean that's all well and good, but Sheik is significantly better than Rosa; even if I shouldn't be taking issue with Rosa being higher than Sheik, them being even is still something I disagree with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Sheik is better, but I don't think she's significantly better. They're still the same tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) the sole fact that Rosa struggles in the Sheik MU (from what I've heard) should separate them appreciably having a poor matchup vs the best character in the game should do a lot to separate characters EDIT: to be fair, Sheik is Sheik's worst matchup as well Edited August 15, 2015 by Euklyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) the sole fact that Rosa struggles in the Sheik MU (from what I've heard) should separate them appreciably having a poor matchup vs the best character in the game should do a lot to separate characters EDIT: to be fair, Sheik is Sheik's worst matchup as well I've also heard differing opinions on that. ZeRo even said that he thinks Rosalina might beat Sheik in 1v1 (Source). Disclaimer: his above video was with customs in consideration. I'm not sure how many people in this topic are considering customs for our list, but customs have left the competitive scene since the video. Edited August 15, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I've also heard differing opinions on that. ZeRo even said that he thinks Rosalina might beat Sheik in 1v1 (Source). Disclaimer: his above video was with customs in consideration. I'm not sure how many people in this topic are considering customs for our list, but customs have left the competitive scene since the video. he said that either could beat either in that video... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) I've also heard differing opinions on that. ZeRo even said that he thinks Rosalina might beat Sheik in 1v1 (Source). Disclaimer: his above video was with customs in consideration. I'm not sure how many people in this topic are considering customs for our list, but customs have left the competitive scene since the video. I'm pretty sure he's said the opposite since then, and I'm 90% sure that Dabuz has said that Rosa loses the Sheik matchup as well, but I don't have a source on either of those. tbh I'm still kiiiinda unsure because Rosa seems like she has a really high skill ceiling that we're probably only barely scratched the surface of Edited August 15, 2015 by Euklyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 he said that either could beat either in that video..."She has a good head-to-head match-up with Sheik. I might be inclined to think that Rosalina may even beat Sheik in the head-to-head." He says the above word-for-word at the part I linked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami922 Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I'm not sure how many people in this topic are considering customs for our list, but customs have left the competitive scene since the video. They have? Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 "She has a good head-to-head match-up with Sheik. I might be inclined to think that Rosalina may even beat Sheik in the head-to-head." He says the above word-for-word at the part I linked. "...but I don't have results to back that up. But, in my opinion, it's either in Sheik's favor, or it's under Rosalina's favor." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) They have? Why?Hell if I know. As far as I can tell, competitive players just don't like them for no particular reason. To be fair, their implementation in the game (the way they're unlocked, etc.) doesn't help a damn thing. "...but I don't have results to back that up. But, in my opinion, it's either in Sheik's favor, or it's under Rosalina's favor."And? He said Rosalina may win it. Did he not? Edited August 15, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) i just wanted to point out that you said sheik may win it. he says he doesn't know who wins the matchup in the video, so saying zero thinks that rosalina wins the matchup is false. Edited August 15, 2015 by PichuMaster3000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 i just wanted to point out that you said sheik may win it. he says he doesn't know who wins the matchup in the video, so saying zero thinks that rosalina wins the matchup is false.Except I didn't say ZeRo thinks Rosalina wins the match-up. I said: I've also heard differing opinions on that. ZeRo even said that he thinks Rosalina might beat Sheik in 1v1 (Source). Might beat Sheik. And if she might beat Sheik, she might not beat Sheik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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