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I've never found Isadora to be anything more than "meh" in the runs that I used her. She's not awful, but there are much better picks for mounted units.

I'm gonna have to agree with you here... been playing the game since 2003, and I've never once liked Isadora. She's got some massive speed for a xx/1 paladin and some decent Strength, but then she's got 6 Constitution... yay. Okay, you can give her the Body Ring, but there are other units I'd rather give the first Body Ring to, such as Florina, Fiora, Lucius, Serra, Priscilla, Rath, Canas, Lyn, or Eliwood. They aren't necessarily better in a vacuum, but if I had to list units better than her that deserve it, I'd put all of these.

Well, maybe not Rath if you're doing an efficiency run, but for a standard ranked run, absolutely. Tiny note that I want to make: unlike Isadora, Rath with Body Ring will always be able rescue Hector, promoted even, if that's something you're into.

... Anyway.

You get to the second one and that one should go to Athos or an aforementioned unit, but let's face it, if you haven't given her the Body Ring by then, she's already been somewhat of a liability. Her one really good stat and growth is hampered by her lack of Con.

Now, this is not to say the list above is full of characters who should always get the Body Ring over her or characters that even need it. In fact, of that list, the only one I'd argue that would get a gigantic benefit from it is Florina, because she can't use more than an Iron Lance without losing tons of defenses and potentially not double-attacking. However, with all the magic users, it enables ease of use for heavier, stronger tomes while retaining their necessary Speed stats... which I think goes a lot farther than Isadora being able to hold Iron Lances without a penalty.

Having potential control over the weapon triangle means so little when you lose 2 speed from an Iron Lance, 4 speed from using an Iron Axe or Steel Sword, 5 from a Javelin, 6 from a Hand Axe, and so on. She generally doesn't get doubled because of this, which is the only good thing I can say about it, but really, you still have to contend with a paladin that has 28 starting HP and single digit defense for a while because she's got a paltry 20% defense growth, as a melee unit... or you could stick to Hand Axes and Javelins and lose 5 or 6 speed. Nice.

I could rant a lot more about why I dislike Isadora, but I don't want to derail the thread too hard.

Edited by Brinzy

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I'm gonna have to agree with you here... been playing the game since 2003, and I've never once liked Isadora. She's got some massive speed for a xx/1 paladin and some decent Strength, but then she's got 6 Constitution... yay. Okay, you can give her the Body Ring, but there are other units I'd rather give the first Body Ring to, such as Florina, Fiora, Lucius, Serra, Priscilla, Rath, Canas, Lyn, or Eliwood.

I find those to be pretty questionable candidates for a Body Ring. I mean, most of them aren't even mounted, and magic users not named Athos rarely have need for a Body Ring in the first place. As for one of those who ARE mounted...

Now, this is not to say the list above is full of characters who should always get the Body Ring over her or characters that even need it. In fact, of that list, the only one I'd argue that would get a gigantic benefit from it is Florina, because she can't use more than an Iron Lance without losing tons of defenses and potentially not double-attacking.

And with the Body Ring, she can't play taxi for Hector or Geitz. Besides, there really shouldn't be many instances where Florina's naturally high AS isn't acting as a buffer for any AS loss she may suffer from using Iron or even Killer or Silver Lances. Even without a Body Ring. Edited by Just call me AL

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My point is that even if they don't need Body Ring as badly as Isadora, the fact that she needs extra boosts to be worth using is already very off-putting to me.

It's true that Florina can't play taxi for those units if she gets the Body Ring. If you're the type to do efficiency runs, it is something to consider since she's definitely a top tier rescue unit. However, if you're the type to do ranked runs, I'm of the opinion that there is never a reason anyone should get a Body Ring over Florina if you're using her, much less a unit that is inferior in virtually every single regard to Florina sans being able to use stuff like axes... yay?

Florina - like everyone else on my list - doesn't need it like Isadora does, which I think speaks against Isadora. They still actually gain decent benefit from it. You made a comment against one of the casters I listed - was it Canas? I think Body Ring + promotion putting him at 10 Con and only losing 2 speed from Luna is gigantic when you're facing units like Kenneth, Sonia, Ursula, and Limstella. Especially Limstella. It does a lot more than Isadora could ever hope to do.

So, let's say you do give her the Body Ring. Her offense is decent, being able to double attack, but she gets clobbered pretty quickly from my experience because if you use anything that's too heavy for her against several units, she stops doubling, and if you use something lighter, she doesn't ORKO a lot of other melee units. Even if you train her, her growths in everything but HP and Speed are pretty low... and she starts with low HP and has Con working against her speed.

I don't know, I just can't understand the appeal to using her when you could use literally any other mounted unit up until that point for far better results. I guess she doesn't require a promotion, so that's nice.

Edited by Brinzy

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My point is that even if they don't need Body Ring as badly as Isadora, the fact that she needs extra boosts to be worth using is already very off-putting to me.

She only needs a Body Ring for stuff like being able to use her strongest accessible weapon without AS loss. I'm only saying that she's easily one of the best candidates for a Body Ring, if not THE best.

It's true that Florina can't play taxi for those units if she gets the Body Ring. If you're the type to do efficiency runs, it is something to consider since she's definitely a top tier rescue unit. However, if you're the type to do ranked runs, I'm of the opinion that there is never a reason anyone should get a Body Ring over Florina if you're using her.

But again. Florina has naturally high AS. Chances of her needing a Body Ring are near zero. And who says that strategies that apply to efficiency runs can't apply elsewhere? Besides, you probably wouldn't even be using stat boosters in Ranked runs anyways due to them helping out your Funds rank.

Florina - like everyone else on my list - doesn't need it like Isadora does, which I think speaks against Isadora. They still actually gain decent benefit from it.

But again, a Body Ring does more to hurt Florina than it does to help her. Same could be said for her sister(s).

You made a comment against one of the casters I listed - was it Canas? I think Body Ring + promotion putting him at 10 Con and only losing 2 speed from Luna is gigantic when you're facing units like Sonia, Ursula, and Limstella.

Serra and Priscilla might not even get a promotion in the first place. So there's less incentive for either of them to get a Body Ring. And Aureola's the only reason I can think of to ever want to give a Body Ring to Lucius, but even then, it's not like Lightning tomes are rare. Besides, you only need 15-25 AS to double Ursula (I doubt one would be slow enough for Ursula to waste all of her Bolting uses, though.), 10-15 AS to double Sonia (The 10 AS is for if she still has Bolting on her), and 6-18 AS to double Limstella (The 6 AS also applies to if she has Bolting on her.). I don't think Canas should have any trouble doubling either even with a Body Ring. (But then again, he is kinda mediocre.)

So, let's say you do give her the Body Ring. Her offense is decent, being able to double attack, but she gets clobbered pretty quickly from my experience because if you use anything that's too heavy for her against several units, she stops doubling, and if you use something lighter, she doesn't ORKO a lot of other melee units.

A single Seraph Robe and a single Dracoshield give her durability rivaling that of the best unit in the game. Which is something to consider when using her.

Even if you train her, her growths in everything but HP and Speed are pretty low... and she starts with low HP and has Con working against her speed.

Her growths are good enough to ensure that she can be used, period. Even the absolute best unit in this game doesn't exactly have high growths, but can find some of the best long-term use around regardless.

I guess she doesn't require a promotion, so that's nice.

She can also apply her offense whenever and to whomever you have her fight. And if offense isn't needed, she can help speed things along with rescue chains.

I don't know, I just can't understand the appeal to using her when you could use literally any other mounted unit up until that point for far better results.

Other mounted units being better doesn't make her terrible. Being a mounted unit who's a competent fighter can, and often does, go a long way in an FE game. Edited by Just call me AL

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You make a lot of great points. I may try to use her a little in the future. However, something I wanted to mention... is you have room to use stat boosters in ranked runs in general. Isadora not requiring a promotion technically means she's paying for her Body Ring and then some. I realize this means I'm now agreeing she's a good candidate for Body Ring because of this, but that's the magic of making good points. : )

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The only characters I'd avoid like the plague are Renault, Nino, Bartre, Dorcas, and Dart.

This is their first run. So Eliwood Normal mode. Nino will not perform poorly even if you don't focus the experience solely onto her for a couple of chapters. In fact, any character will be great if you dump enough experience into them, so I don't agree that you should avoid any characters.

Pick the ones you like the most for your own personal reasons (character, class, portrait, stats, whatever), and roll with them.

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This is their first run. So Eliwood Normal mode. Nino will not perform poorly even if you don't focus the experience solely onto her for a couple of chapters. In fact, any character will be great if you dump enough experience into them, so I don't agree that you should avoid any characters.

Pick the ones you like the most for your own personal reasons (character, class, portrait, stats, whatever), and roll with them.

It's not so much that Nino will perform poorly as it is that she's a serious pain to get going, in large part because FE7 enemies are weak and because Night of Farewells is annoying as fuck. As to the "any character can be great if you dump enough experience into them", I'd say Renault's enough of a counterpoint. Not that I'd trust Bartre or Dorcas to become respectable, either, between their piss-poor speed growth (in Dorcas's case), piss-poor speed base (in Bartre's case), and Warrior promotion gains being among the worst in the GBA era...

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This is their first run. So Eliwood Normal mode. Nino will not perform poorly even if you don't focus the experience solely onto her for a couple of chapters. In fact, any character will be great if you dump enough experience into them, so I don't agree that you should avoid any characters.

Pick the ones you like the most for your own personal reasons (character, class, portrait, stats, whatever), and roll with them.

I have to agree with this, I never had a problem in any of the FE games using whoever I liked the best and that has to do with their personality/looks instead of their stats. I even used Dorcas and Bartre several times and they always end up plenty strong, same with Marcus.

Although the only character that I just found "Meh" is Isadora, I just never bothered much with her.

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You know what, now that I really think about it, no, Isadora IS pretty bad.

Serra and Priscilla might not even get a promotion in the first place. So there's less incentive for either of them to get a Body Ring. And Aureola's the only reason I can think of to ever want to give a Body Ring to Lucius, but even then, it's not like Lightning tomes are rare. Besides, you only need 15-25 AS to double Ursula (I doubt one would be slow enough for Ursula to waste all of her Bolting uses, though.), 10-15 AS to double Sonia (The 10 AS is for if she still has Bolting on her), and 6-18 AS to double Limstella (The 6 AS also applies to if she has Bolting on her.). I don't think Canas should have any trouble doubling either even with a Body Ring. (But then again, he is kinda mediocre.)

A single Seraph Robe and a single Dracoshield give her durability rivaling that of the best unit in the game. Which is something to consider when using her.

Her growths are good enough to ensure that she can be used, period. Even the absolute best unit in this game doesn't exactly have high growths, but can find some of the best long-term use around regardless.

She can also apply her offense whenever and to whomever you have her fight. And if offense isn't needed, she can help speed things along with rescue chains.

Other mounted units being better doesn't make her terrible. Being a mounted unit who's a competent fighter can, and often does, go a long way in an FE game.

First off, if you're not promoting the healers, then that means you're doing an "efficiency" run. You are using a ton of mounted units to begin with just so you can do rescue chains and get Hector to where he needs to be as soon as possible on most maps. You mention giving Isadora a Body Ring earlier... and then you mention giving her a Seraph Robe and a Dracoshield. Why in god's name am I giving a statistically inferior unit THREE stat boosters, when giving her those stat boosters still keeps her strictly worse than Kent, Sain, Lowen, Florina, and Fiora?

"But being worse than those who share your class doesn't mean that you can't use another one"

Okay sure, that's true. Then let's talk about a unit that is better than her in a different class that still does her job. If you're doing an "efficiency" run, why wouldn't you want to promote Priscilla early on and just use her instead?

10/1 Priscilla:

HP 22.15
Mag 10.8
Skl 10.5
Spd 10.8
Luck 11.55
Def 6.05
Res 12.5
xx/1 Isadora:
HP 28
Str 13
Skl 12
Spd 16
Luck 10
Def 8
Res 6
Sure, Isadora has more HP and speed, but Priscilla is also mounted, heals, always has range, hits lower Res, gains way more experience from combat, has a legitimate 15 Aid breakpoint (minor but real plus), and doesn't actually need the Body Ring. I still think giving Priscilla a Body Ring so she doesn't lose AS with Thunder is a much better investment than giving it to Isadora, who still loses speed with anything that isn't an Iron Lance and apparently needs two more stat boosters just so she isn't dead weight. What a waste of stats.
You could even give those same items to Priscilla, and then suddenly 10/1 Priscilla would have MORE HP, the same Def, and more Luck/Res than Isadora... while retaining the class advantages of being a Valkyrie, all while being on a team with superior Paladins that don't care if Isadora can use an Iron Axe.
There's actually no reason to use Isadora and NOT promote Priscilla in a serious run. If you're actually using Isadora, who is causing Priscilla to be benched anyway? Nobody else is a mounted caster, so if you're doing those efficiency runs, you should absolutely promote Priscilla since nobody else can contest a Guiding Ring. This doesn't even begin to acknowledge that Isadora is naturally flimsy anyway, so you are patching up a flimsy unit that stays pretty underwhelming. I mean... xx/20 Isadora has the same Strength as 10/20 Priscilla. She has higher HP and Speed, but Priscilla doubles trash mobs anyway, attacks at range, and has higher Luck + her full AS with Fire, which closes any Avo gap between the two.
... This is all 10/xx Priscilla.
If you're doing anything else... like a casual run through Fire Emblem... or a ranked run... or playing a hard mode anyway... there is never a reason you wouldn't promote Priscilla.
As for Canas being mediocre... well, nobody else but Athos can do what he can do, namely Luna, which already gives him a large reason to be used. Sure, maybe he won't need the Body Ring either, but if you're giving Isadora three stat boosts for an arbitrary reason, I think giving Canas a promotion item that he can easily earn (Luna advantage vs. Erk/Lucius) + giving him any stat boost(s) of your choosing - even though he doesn't need them - is worth it. Especially since, well, he's better than Isadora.
I'm really struggling to see why you'd give Isadora three stat boosters when two other mounted units that you could pamper to turn out far better appear on her joining chapter and every other mounted unit in the game that comes before her is strictly superior. I thought about incorporating her in my ranked run, and there really isn't a reason to do so.

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You mention giving Isadora a Body Ring earlier... and then you mention giving her a Seraph Robe and a Dracoshield. Why in god's name am I giving a statistically inferior unit THREE stat boosters, when giving her those stat boosters still keeps her strictly worse than Kent, Sain, Lowen, Florina, and Fiora?

The same reason why you would give the best unit in the game some Speedwings. Especially considering how poor his Spd growth is and how mediocre his Spd average is. Besides, Isadora would only need two of those stat boosters including the Body Ring at the least. Not to mention, Sain, Kent, Florina, or Fiora might not be promoted by the time Isadora joins. And Lowen, though he is overall better than her, has shakier offense than she does, and has less long-term use. (For reference, Lowen has bases of 7 in Str and Spd, and a 30% growth in both.) By the time any one of them have better offense than her, it's late in the game.

If you're doing an "efficiency" run, why wouldn't you want to promote Priscilla early on and just use her instead?

You underestimate just how hard it is to be able to level a healer quick enough to even reach promotion time. Not to mention, there's only three Guiding Rings before Pale Flower of Darkness or Cog of Destiny. Either of Canas or Lucius would want those rings first, and Priscilla could just as easily deal with being unpromoted. Nevermind the fact that none of them might even reach promotion time when Isadora joins.

I still think giving Priscilla a Body Ring so she doesn't lose AS with Thunder is a much better investment than giving it to Isadora.

The fact that Priscilla will be unable to rescue Hector says otherwise. Like Florina, Priscilla stands to lose something by taking a Body Ring as opposed to Isadora.

You could even give those same items to Priscilla, and then suddenly 10/1 Priscilla would have MORE HP, the same Def, and more Luck/Res than Isadora... while retaining the class advantages of being a Valkyrie, all while being on a team with superior Paladins that don't care if Isadora can use an Iron Axe.

That doesn't mean that Priscilla makes the best use of those items. Especially since Isadora's primary role is being a combatant while Priscilla's primary role is being a medic.

There's actually no reason to use Isadora and NOT promote Priscilla in a serious run. If you're actually using Isadora, who is causing Priscilla to be benched anyway? Nobody else is a mounted caster, so if you're doing those efficiency runs, you should absolutely promote Priscilla since nobody else can contest a Guiding Ring.

Again, Canas and Lucius exist. And healers are tricky to level up on efficiency runs.

This doesn't even begin to acknowledge that Isadora is naturally flimsy anyway, so you are patching up a flimsy unit that stays pretty underwhelming. I mean... xx/20 Isadora has the same Strength as 10/20 Priscilla

How being like a 16/01 Kent with with no investment equates to being "naturally flimsy" is beyond me. Again, her only real signs of "flimsiness" are her CON and durability, which can be fixed. True, by lategame, her growths would have caught up to her, but that by itself doesn't make her "bad".

If you're doing anything else... like a casual run

I'm pretty sure one would get away with promoting Priscilla early on in a casual run. Seeing as you can take as much time as you want on a casual run.

As for Canas being mediocre... well, nobody else but Athos can do what he can do, namely Luna, which already gives him a large reason to be used.

Luna's not actually that great of a weapon. You literally only get two or three of them, it has 35 uses, and no Mt. True, it negates Res, but that only means that it's most effective against enemies with high Res. Which is usually just bosses or anything that a melee weapon can take does with no trouble. It's often better to use a Flux tome against the common enemy, seeing as it has Mt, and enemies generally have poor Res.

Sure, maybe he won't need the Body Ring either, but if you're giving Isadora three stat boosts for an arbitrary reason

I hardly think that giving a stat booster to whoever makes great use of it counts as "arbitrary".

I think giving Canas a promotion item that he can easily earn (Luna advantage vs. Erk/Lucius) + giving him any stat boost(s) of your choosing - even though he doesn't need them - is worth it.

Even though he doesn't make the best use of those stat boosters? His bases are mediocre, and his growths are. He likely won't start doubling anything until he promotes. And he's not mounted. He's like a magic-using Eliwood without the horse post-promotion, a cheaper promotion item, and a potentially earlier promotion time. (Though there is more benefit to promoting Canas than there is to promoting Eliwood. Heaven Seals, why are you so expensive?)

Especially since, well, he's better than Isadora.

No horse. Somewhat iffy offense. I honestly have a hard time seeing how he is "better" than Isadora.

I'm really struggling to see why you'd give Isadora three stat boosters when two other mounted units that you could pamper to turn out far stronger appear on her joining chapter

And aren't stronger than her when they do appear. And only one of them, Rath, is actually worse than Isadora. As he has no 1-range option until promotion. His bases, even when coming out of Lyn's story, don't do anything to help alleviate that.

and every other mounted unit in the game that comes before her is strictly superior.

Which, again, doesn't mean that she's bad. You could very well say the same thing about Farina, but that doesn't change that she's a good unit herself, despite the high recruitment cost. It could also be said about Nino, though in her case, she actually is bad.

I thought about incorporating her in my ranked run, and there really isn't a reason to do so.

Saving money on a promotion item isn't a valid enough reason? I ask this because of the fact that she's prepromoted. Edited by Just call me AL

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The same reason why you would give the best unit in the game some Speedwings. Especially considering how poor his Spd growth is and how mediocre his Spd average is. Besides, Isadora would only need two of those stat boosters including the Body Ring at the least. Not to mention, Sain, Kent, Florina, or Fiora might not be promoted by the time Isadora joins. And Lowen, though he is overall better than her, has shakier offense than she does, and has less long-term use. (For reference, Lowen has bases of 7 in Str and Spd, and a 30% growth in both.) By the time any one of them have better offense than her, it's late in the game.

Sain, Kent, Florina, and Fiora not being promoted doesn't actually mean that Isadora gets free stat boosts. She may be in a better class, but up until this point she has done nothing and will still trail behind your other units very easily. I don't see how Isadora being a paladin is a significant advantage compared to the other units, especially seeing how they're statistically similar before promotion to Isadora, just off of memory. Actually, let's take a look:

At level 16, Kent's got similar offense and higher durability than Isadora... and then he levels up some more or promotes anyway.

At level 16, Sain has 4 less speed but more durability and far more Strength... and then he levels up some more or promotes anyway.

At level 16, Florina has similar endurance to Isadora (few less HP and Def vs. a lot more Spd, Luck, and Res) and almost as good offense... and then she levels up some more or promotes anyway.

Fiora being 16 is a stretch. If you get her one level up per chapter, not counting the one she joins on nor 19xx, she would be about level 10, which is very, very modest considering she is legitimate on every map leading up to Isadora's recruitment. However, since she gains more experience and has even more superior maps coming up (desert map, Linus, map where flight is a huge plus, etc.), it is not a stretch to say that she will catch up. 20/1 Fiora vs. like level 6 Isadora... ties in Strength and wins everywhere else.

20/1 Lowen gets 3 less Speed and 1 less Skill than Isadora... and completely stomps on her durability while maintaining similar Strength and higher Con so he can actually use heavier weapons a lot more efficiently than Isadora. You know, without a Body Ring or Angelic Robe.

... And all of those units come before Isadora.

Why is Isadora being babied, again? It might "only" be a few stat boosts, but these are stat boosts you could give to literally anybody else for far better results. Just because Isadora gets 25% more health with an Angelic Robe doesn't mean that giving it to her is the best for your army when you could give it to a unit that gets, say, 20% more health but is already stronger elsewhere and can actually do something with it.

You underestimate just how hard it is to be able to level a healer quick enough to even reach promotion time. Not to mention, there's only three Guiding Rings before Pale Flower of Darkness or Cog of Destiny. Either of Canas or Lucius would want those rings first, and Priscilla could just as easily deal with being unpromoted. Nevermind the fact that none of them might even reach promotion time when Isadora joins.

So we're using and promoting Canas, Lucius, AND Erk? None of which are healing for your party before promotion or have better mobility or Aid? If we're stacking two pegasus knights, a wyvern knight, and three paladins, not counting Isadora who is a joke, why would I opt for three foot units to hit 20 and then promote before Priscilla? If you had to choose one just one unit out of those that promote with the Guiding Ring, you would always choose Priscilla over anyone else because she's one of two units that can heal early to mid game and the only one that is also mounted.

It's clear that this metagame of stacking mobility to end chapters super fast favors many of the mounted units, so why are we suddenly pretending that Priscilla would not be used over ONE of the three casters? Given she's a backline unit, and given the existence of Physic, Barrier, Torch, and even Unlock, I don't see how you couldn't level her easily. Ninils helps to level her even faster assuming that Ninils can't keep up or if it's unsafe on the frontlines, and then you can double Barrier, or double Torch, or double Physic, or mix it up for a minimum of 30 xp per turn.

Priscilla gains an easy level going into Noble Lady of Caelin, and she should level twice on Whereabouts Unknown. She should level up again on Pirate Ship, and then once again when you hit The Dread Isle (you will have Torch Staff at some point here). She can easily level up on Imprisoner of Magic, which is a 10 turn chapter, and between Dragon's Gate (16 turns + access to Unlock for turns where there's no damage), and New Resolve (9 turns + Torch + Ninian), getting three levels will not be difficult. She should be level 12 by the time you even see Isadora, and then on that very same chapter, you can invest in two Barrier staves, each one worth 2.55 levels, and at least one Physic Staff.

Then you spam Priscilla on the desert chapter because Ninian can't actually help anyone else out reliably, and suddenly before you know it, Priscilla is 15. She should be promoting no later than Night of Farewells if you're being lazy about it, and she can promote easily in Pale Flower of Darkness at level 20, if not sooner.

According to you, there are "only" three Guiding Rings before Pale Flower of Darkness, and last I checked, Canas nor Lucius can get XP without taking experience away from your other units. They join at a higher level, sure, but how does Priscilla not get an easy promotion over ONE of them?

If these efficiency runs that people do are really as fast as people want to make them sound, then would you even recruit Lucius to begin with?

tl;dr Priscilla gets to promote when she wants.

The fact that Priscilla will be unable to rescue Hector says otherwise. Like Florina, Priscilla stands to lose something by taking a Body Ring as opposed to Isadora.

Rescuing promoted Hector is useful for ONE chapter. Just one. I guess if it's absolutely dire to get Hector up to Limstella as fast as possible, then Priscilla and Florina have a distinct advantage over Isadora. If it isn't that important... then that would only mean Florina getting the Body Ring (or Priscilla, for that matter - although she definitely has less use for it than Florina) isn't actually as big a detriment as you made it sound like earlier.

That doesn't mean that Priscilla makes the best use of those items. Especially since Isadora's primary role is being a combatant while Priscilla's primary role is being a medic.

It certainly means that Priscilla not needing those items is a big deal. You can opt to not give them to Priscilla and to give them to any other unit that's better than Isadora, or you can give them to Isadora and...... still be a worse unit than every other highly mobile unit? Sure if you want. Or, you can give them to any other unit and see real results where they now can extend even further into the enemies and not die, or they can take advantage of heavy weapons like Steel Lances/Axes without losing any Speed.

Or you can simply not use 24000 worth of stat boosts to begin with, if you're S-ranking. There's a real advantage to saving items there.

How being like a 16/01 Kent with with no investment equates to being "naturally flimsy" is beyond me. Again, her only real signs of "flimsiness" are her CON and durability, which can be fixed.

Lacking durability is the very definition of being flimsy.

The question here is why is it worth "fixing" Isadora for 24000g when you could improve many other units that will definitely be fielded over Isadora? And I put fixing in air quotes because 20/10 Florina, the frailest of the units mentioned earlier, would only have 3 less HP and 2 less Defense but 7 more Luck and Resistance (magic heavy chapters, anyone?), than an Isadora who has taken three stat boosts... and superior offense by far with 3 more Strength, 4 more Speed, and 6 more Skill.

Again, this is the one I'd consider the most frail of those five, who actually is better than a boosted Isadora. Also I didn't factor in the Angelic Robe from Lyn's mode, which actually does go straight to Florina.

Luna's not actually that great of a weapon. You literally only get two or three of them, it has 35 uses, and no Mt. True, it negates Res, but that only means that it's most effective against enemies with high Res. Which is usually just bosses or anything that a melee weapon can take does with no trouble. It's often better to use a Flux tome against the common enemy, seeing as it has Mt, and enemies generally have poor Res.

Even though he doesn't make the best use of those stat boosters? His bases are mediocre, and his growths are. He likely won't start doubling anything until he promotes. And he's not mounted. He's like a magic-using Eliwood without the horse post-promotion, a cheaper promotion item, and a potentially earlier promotion time. (Though there is more benefit to promoting Canas than there is to promoting Eliwood. Heaven Seals, why are you so expensive?)

No horse. Somewhat iffy offense. I honestly have a hard time seeing how he is "better" than Isadora.

So, Canas.

- access to 70 uses of Luna, which is overkill for what he needs to do with it, which is kill bosses and maybe use for one turn on a map like Cog of Destiny to wipe enemies out. Nobody said that you're using Luna against low Res enemies. Speaking of bosses, did you know that after Linus, the only bosses in the game with more Def. than Res. are Brendan, Darin, Linus (again), and Jerme all on one chapter, and that they still sport very high defenses, making Luna worth it for nearly the entire game?

- access to Nosferatu for easy self healing as long as he's not getting ganged on

- top tier unit for boss killing, which will in turn help with Tactics

- always ranged and has real utility that isn't easily replicated.

- comes before Isadora

Being a 3rd or 4th healer on a mid to late game team (omitting Serra) while being the ONLY Luna user is a lot better than being the last horse unit that needs three stat boosters to be decidedly inferior to your counterparts that do your same exact job a lot better.

20/1 Canas has bases that destroy Isadora's when you factor in her Con weighing down her only "higher" stat, which is Speed. 20/10 Canas vs. xx/10 Isadora shows that he only has slightly less Speed and Luck for higher stats everywhere else and all the benefits I named earlier, which includes boss killing, healing, range, and availability. All Isadora has is a horse and a largely meaningless control over the weapon triangle when you consider how she's weighed down and flimsy anyway.

Oh but right, we're giving her 24000g worth of items so she's less flimsy because somehow, Isadora being the one who desperately needs an HP/Def/Con boost automatically makes her the best recipient of those items even though I've shown that she's still inferior with the boosts.

How is Canas not a better unit than Isadora? Now that I've broken it down, I find he's MUCH better than her. If having a horse was all it took to justify using a unit over another unit, Vaida would be amazing.

And aren't stronger than her when they do appear. And only one of them, Rath, is actually worse than Isadora. As he has no 1-range option until promotion. His bases, even when coming out of Lyn's story, don't do anything to help alleviate that.

I won't go into deep detail with Rath, because at that point it is a tossup. I will say that babying Rath to 15 by letting him kill flying units, mages, and melee units that can't counter and spending 10,000g on promoting him and watching his offense soar past Isadora's by having uncontested access to the Brave Bow, better Strength, similar Speed, superior Con and significantly better ranged combat is a good enough reason to use him over Isadora. Maybe not a good enough reason to use him period, but definitely a large enough reason to not make him worse than Isadora, a unit that even you give 24k worth of items to.

Which, again, doesn't mean that she's bad. You could very well say the same thing about Farina, but that doesn't change that she's a good unit herself, despite the high recruitment cost. It could also be said about Nino, though in her case, she actually is bad.

Saving money on a promotion item isn't a valid enough reason? I ask this because of the fact that she's prepromoted.

Actually, availability is important and not being available does count against you, because it means that up until that point, you've done absolutely nothing for your team, and since there are very, very few things that units can do to hurt you besides die, I am inclined to believe that being worse than five units that come before you and staying worse than those units DOES make you bad.

Farina's biggest problem is recruitment price, but you're not really going to argue that spending 20k and then 10k on promotion for Farina, a unit that comes later than Isadora but is most definitely better than her with training, is somehow a big deal when you're spending 24k on Isadora, right?

Speaking of Funds, no, saving 10k on a promotion item really isn't a big deal. S-ranking funds is not exactly a daunting task. You're given more than enough funds to make reasonable decisions and not think twice about your wallet, such as promoting units you're using, even if they're Eli or Lyn. It's only a big deal if you're spending 50k on a promotion or if you're flushing 24,000g down the drain on bad units.

Really, I'm not even trying to be combative here. I don't see why on earth you'd ever bother with Isadora, and honestly I'm surprised that there are people who think highly of her. Even more surprising to me is that you can argue against Priscilla being used but have no qualms with dumping so much into Isadora.

Edited by Brinzy

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Sain, Kent, Florina, and Fiora not being promoted doesn't actually mean that Isadora gets free stat boosts.

But the fact you're making a decent unit stronger, might mean exactly that.

I don't see how Isadora being a paladin is a significant advantage compared to the other units

It's a small advantage, I'll grant you. But it's significant enough to her for someone to either give her a 7 in a unit rating topic, or put her between Fiora and Canas on an HHM tier list. (There's certainly some topics on here that do both as a matter of fact.)

At level 16, Kent's got similar offense and higher durability than Isadora... and then he levels up some more or promotes anyway.

At level 16, Sain has 4 less speed but more durability and far more Strength... and then he levels up some more or promotes anyway.

And only one of those would be able to get a Knight's Crest when Isadora even joins (unless you've gone through Lyn's story, which isn't guaranteed), and don't have the appropriate weapon levels to be able to compete with her until later on.

At level 16, Florina has similar endurance to Isadora (few less HP and Def vs. a lot more Spd, Luck, and Res) and almost as good offense... and then she levels up some more or promotes anyway.

Any Spd adantage Florina would have over Isadora is negated by her AS loss. Not to mention, there's no guarantee that she'll be able to use Silver Lances by then.

Fiora being 16 is a stretch. If you get her one level up per chapter, not counting the one she joins on nor 19xx, she would be about level 10, which is very, very modest considering she is legitimate on every map leading up to Isadora's recruitment. However, since she gains more experience and has even more superior maps coming up (desert map, Linus, map where flight is a huge plus, etc.), it is not a stretch to say that she will catch up. 20/1 Fiora vs. like level 6 Isadora... ties in Strength and wins everywhere else.

Which will, again, be late in the game.

20/1 Lowen gets 3 less Speed and 1 less Skill than Isadora... and completely stomps on her durability while maintaining similar Strength and higher Con so he can actually use heavier weapons a lot more efficiently than Isadora. You know, without a Body Ring or Angelic Robe.

But his Str's more shakier than Isadora's because of the growth and base stat involved. And Isadora can easily double enemies he can't, or at the least isn't likely to be able to. (Such as the mercs in Ch 27.) Not to mention, Lowen might not even get a Knight's Crest because of the shaky offense.

Why is Isadora being babied, again? It might "only" be a few stat boosts, but these are stat boosts you could give to literally anybody else for far better results. Just because Isadora gets 25% more health with an Angelic Robe doesn't mean that giving it to her is the best for your army when you could give it to a unit that gets, say, 20% more health but is already stronger elsewhere and can actually do something with it.

Your team's overall performance with Isadora included is noticeably better by giving her stat boosters than it is when someone who doesn't need those boosts, or makes horrible use of those boosts, gets them.

So we're using and promoting Canas, Lucius, AND Erk?

Who says we're promoting Erk? All I mentioned were Lucius and Canas. Nowhere in any of my posts did I mention Erk. Besides, in contrast to either of Canas or Lucius, Erk has less to gain from taking a Guiding Ring. His staff level won't reach A until very late in the game at the least. And the fact that Pent exists gives you even less of a reason to promote Erk.

Given she's a backline unit, and given the existence of Physic, Barrier, Torch, and even Unlock, I don't see how you couldn't level her easily. Ninils helps to level her even faster assuming that Ninils can't keep up or if it's unsafe on the frontlines, and then you can double Barrier, or double Torch, or double Physic, or mix it up for a minimum of 30 xp per turn.

IIRC, Torch is only usable on maps with FOW. And buyable high EXP staves don't come in until the very chapter where Isadora does join.

Priscilla gains an easy level going into Noble Lady of Caelin

Assuming she can get 10 heal uses in 2 chapters.

and she should level twice on Whereabouts Unknown. She should level up again on Pirate Ship, and then once again when you hit The Dread Isle (you will have Torch Staff at some point here). She can easily level up on Imprisoner of Magic, which is a 10 turn chapter, and between Dragon's Gate (16 turns + access to Unlock for turns where there's no damage), and New Resolve (9 turns + Torch + Ninian), getting three levels will not be difficult. She should be level 12 by the time you even see Isadora.

Not if you're trying to get everything done as quickly as possible. Especially when you're ranking, and are making up for those maps where every turn you take hurts your tactics ranking.

According to you, there are "only" three Guiding Rings before Pale Flower of Darkness, and last I checked, Canas nor Lucius can get XP without taking experience away from your other units.

Implying that there's not enough EXP to keep everyone you're using strong enough throughout the whole game. Which there is.

They join at a higher level, sure, but how does Priscilla not get an easy promotion over ONE of them?

How does Priscilla actually mind being promoted before either of Canas or Lucius? The fact that she's a staff user means that she should be able to help even without a promotion.

Rescuing promoted Hector is useful for ONE chapter. Just one.

For rescuing Hector, period, Noble Lady of Caelin, Whereabouts Unknown, Imprisoner of Magic, Dragon's Gate, Pale Flower of Darkness, Night of Farewells, Cog of Destiny, and Victory or Death, are all hardly "just one chapter".

I guess if it's absolutely dire to get Hector up to Limstella as fast as possible, then Priscilla and Florina have a distinct advantage over Isadora. If it isn't that important... then that would only mean Florina getting the Body Ring (or Priscilla, for that matter - although she definitely has less use for it than Florina) isn't actually as big a detriment as you made it sound like earlier.

Except for the fact that it actually is a big of a detriment as I made it sound earlier.

It certainly means that Priscilla not needing those items is a big deal. You can opt to not give them to Priscilla and to give them to any other unit that's better than Isadora, or you can give them to Isadora and...... still be a worse unit than every other highly mobile unit?

The question here is why is it worth "fixing" Isadora for 24000g when you could improve many other units that will definitely be fielded over Isadora? And I put fixing in air quotes because 20/10 Florina, the frailest of the units mentioned earlier, would only have 3 less HP and 2 less Defense but 7 more Luck and Resistance (magic heavy chapters, anyone?), than an Isadora who has taken three stat boosts... and superior offense by far with 3 more Strength, 4 more Speed, and 6 more Skill.

There's a difference between "making good use of a stat booster" (and I've already mentioned how Priscilla doesn't make good use of a Body Ring"), and being the most optimal user for a stat booster. Could Priscilla make good use of a Draoshield or a Seraph Robe? Maybe. But she's never on the front lines at least very often. Isadora on the other hand, is. Could Florina make good use of those same two items? Maybe. But her growths in her durability areas aren't anything all too special even in comparison to Isadora's. (60% HP and 15% Def vs 75% HP and 20% Def.) To say nothing of the fact that Florina has no WTC until promotion, and her sword level takes a while for it to get out of E. Point is, one would stand to gain more from giving Isadora a Body Ring and either a Seraph Robe or a Dracoshield than other units. Literally, her only other real competitor for a Body Ring is Athos, whereas her only other real competitor for a durability-boosting item is Marcus.

Again, this is the one I'd consider the most frail of those five, who actually is better than a boosted Isadora. Also I didn't factor in the Angelic Robe from Lyn's mode, which actually does go straight to Florina.

And again, there's no guarantee that one would go through Lyn's story.

- access to 70 uses of Luna, which is overkill for what he needs to do with it, which is kill bosses and maybe use for one turn on a map like Cog of Destiny to wipe enemies out. Nobody said that you're using Luna against low Res enemies. Speaking of bosses, did you know that after Linus, the only bosses in the game with more Def. than Res. are Brendan, Darin, Linus (again), and Jerme all on one chapter, and that they still sport very high defenses, making Luna worth it for nearly the entire game?

Except the only real bosses you'd ever want to use Luna on are Ursula, Sonia, Limstella, Nergal, the Fire Dragon, and maybe Brendan. The last three of which face greater danger from Athos.

- access to Nosferatu for easy self healing as long as he's not getting ganged on

And doesn't do jack when he's doubled. Which is not helped by the 5 AS loss Canas gets from using Nosferatu.

- top tier unit for boss killing

Only for the lategame. And before then, guys like Marcus, for example, are better.

has real utility that isn't easily replicated

On the contrary, given that other magic users such as Lucius and Pent exist. His only real utility that isn't easily replicated is killing the bosses I've named.

20/1 Canas has bases that destroy Isadora's when you factor in her Con weighing down her only "higher" stat, which is Speed.

This is assuming that he's promoting at that level when Isadora comes. Which isn't likely to happen.

All Isadora has is a horse and a largely meaningless control over the weapon triangle when you consider how she's weighed down and flimsy anyway.

You clearly underestimate just how useful having a horse can be in an FE game, and overestimate just how strong the enemies in this game are as a whole. Isadora's WTC is hardly "meaningless" when she's killing things like chapter 22's 29 HP, 11 def Axereaver dracos, for example.

How is Canas not a better unit than Isadora?

Again, No horse, and somewhat iffy offense.

If having a horse was all it took to justify using a unit over another unit, Vaida would be amazing.

True. Having a mount isn't enough to justify using a unit over another. In Isadora's case, she joins early enough to make the horse matter. Granted, she has worse availability than Sain, Kent, Florina, and Fiora. But it's as I keep saying. That. Does. Not. Make. Her. A. Bad. Unit.

I won't go into deep detail with Rath, because at that point it is a tossup. I will say that babying Rath to 15 by letting him kill flying units, mages, and melee units that can't counter and spending 10,000g on promoting him and watching his offense soar past Isadora's by having uncontested access to the Brave Bow, better Strength, similar Speed, superior Con and significantly better ranged combat is a good enough reason to use him over Isadora. Maybe not a good enough reason to use him period, but definitely a large enough reason to not make him worse than Isadora.

And you overestimate just how easy it is to get Rath's offense to a respectable level. Him being bow-locked until promotion means that he's taking counters that would require him to be attacked at range for him to retaliate. Meaning he's getting a large net bulk of his EXP from player phase, and through the same means as Wil and Rebecca, who are both inherently worse than him. And on promotion, he gets an E in swords. Yay? My point is, how strong Rath turns out isn't the problem, it's trying to make him strong.

Actually, availability is important and not being available does count against you, because it means that up until that point, you've done absolutely nothing for your team, and since there are very, very few things that units can do to hurt you besides die, I am inclined to believe that being worse than five units that come before you and staying worse than those units DOES make you bad.

Actually, having bases and growths that aren't good enough to be able to face many of the enemies in the game is actually what determines who's good or bad. Isadora doesn't have that problem. Availability's also a factor, true. But it's not a crippling factor unless the unit in question is someone like Nino.

Farina's biggest problem is recruitment price, but you're not really going to argue that spending 20k and then 10k on promotion for Farina, a unit that comes later than Isadora but is most definitely better than her with training, is somehow a big deal when you're spending 24k on Isadora, right?

You're confusing "better" with "stronger". Farina may become stronger than Isadora, yes. Farina's recruitment cost is mainly what makes her worse than Isadora. Largely because Farina's recruitment isn't guaranteed.

Speaking of Funds, no, saving 10k on a promotion item really isn't a big deal. S-ranking funds is not exactly a daunting task. You're given more than enough funds to make reasonable decisions and not think twice about your wallet, such as promoting units you're using, even if they're Eli or Lyn. It's only a big deal if you're spending 50k on a promotion or if you're flushing 24,000g down the drain on bad units.

None of which are named "Isadora".

Really, I'm not even trying to be combative here. I don't see why on earth you'd ever bother with Isadora

There's nothing that dictates that you're allowed to use no more than 3 or 4 Pallies, a Valk, and 4 or 5 fliers, or anything that ever says that an additional mounted unit at any time is a bad thing. The better question is "why not?".

and honestly I'm surprised that there are people who think highly of her.

Shouldn't that by itself tell you that Isadora's better than you seem to think? I'm not claiming she's "the best unit ever" or anything. But at the same time, most of the people on these boards, including yours truly, aren't those who fawn over units like Rebecca, Nino, Bartre, or Dart, as units.

Even more surprising to me is that you can argue against Priscilla being used but have no qualms with dumping so much into Isadora.

I wasn't arguing against Priscilla being used. Only against her being promoted and getting some items she hardly makes the best use of. Edited by Just call me AL

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Your team's overall performance with Isadoa included is noticeably better by giving her stat boosters than it is when someone who doesn't need those boosts, or makes horrible use of those boosts, gets them.

Why use stat boosts at all, when they contribute 8,000 each to your Funds rank? Unless you don't care about Funds, that is...

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Why use stat boosts at all, when they contribute 8,000 each to your Funds rank? Unless you don't care about Funds, that is...

True. But when playing efficiently, or even just playing the game, it doesn't hurt to make the most of what you have. Edited by Just call me AL

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Late edit: I just realized that the threads you linked do not account for ranked. Had I known this, I wouldn't have put any stock into either of those threads. Of course Isadora is better in an unranked mode, because costing more than other units to get going while ignoring what makes the other units so strong to begin with both work in her favor. Still not good, but nonetheless...

----

For the sake of saving space and time, I will condense my argument a bit further.

First and foremost, those threads you linked say a few things. In the standard tier list thread, Isadora is Upper Mid and right next to Canas. This one seems a lot more accurate to me, because in that other thread, Matthew and Serra are a 6 when Isadora is an 8. If you're doing a true ranked run - 5 stars in each rank - there is no possible way Matthew isn't a top tier, and Serra is no lower than high tier. Personally I view them both as top tier because one helps Funds like nobody else can and the other helps Experience like only one person reasonably can, while having a level lead.

To say that Isadora is an "8" while they're a 6 is reason enough for me to completely ignore that thread. This isn't a slight against Isadora; this just means that whatever metrics they're going by is completely unimportant to this discussion.

Now, looking at the standard tier list thread, I would say like 70% of who she is above is justified because they have crippling flaws. I would not argue that Eliwood, Canas, Guy, Lyn, and Dorcas are worse than her, because all of these units contribute quite well to the experience rank (the most difficult rank, IMO). Furthermore, they are all a lot more likely to improve Tactics; between Prf. weapons, Luna-killing, or high early game base stats, they can all realistically make a difference in their early to mid game chapters, or in the case of Canas, single-handedly shave turns off of bosses, which yes, is a gigantic deal. You said this yourself:

Except the only real bosses you'd ever want to use Luna on are Ursula, Sonia, Limstella, Nergal, the Fire Dragon, and maybe Brendan. The last three of which face greater danger from Athos.

That's six bosses right there where Luna would help. What you're ignoring or not counting is that Luna has high accuracy and crit rating while ignoring boss Res from everyone. This means that Canas, having high Res himself, would be the best mage for killing the other mages (you left out Kenneth), a strong candidate for killing scary melee units (Darin, all five encounters with the Reed family), and the myriad of dangerous units you run into throughout the game, like the female druids in Cog of Destiny.

http://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/characters/boss-data/hard-mode/stats/

Really, take a look. You can't say that Luna isn't that big a deal when... it very clearly is. Don't forget that enemies that sit on thrones gain 5 Resistance, 20 Avoid, and 2 Defense. No Res change for gates, but 3 Def instead. Luna does not care about any of this.

You're not using anyone who uses a bow, so if you want to have a ranged unit support you in killing a boss on a throne or any enemy that is tough and walled back, Canas is godly.

----

As for the stuff about Priscilla, you said that we aren't likely promoting Erk because Pent exists... which I don't agree with either, but if that's the case, then there's really no reason to not promote Priscilla when you get the 3rd Guiding Ring around or before she hits 20. The HHM tier list places Priscilla in top, where she belongs, because she contributes to Exp in a unique way before promotion and then gets an Exp bonus after promotion... so not promoting her would be completely silly.

I realize you didn't exclusively say to not use Priscilla, but what you did argue is that Priscilla's offense is not that great and not a big deal, compared to Isadora. Offense is just icing on the cake for her. My main takeaway point is that Priscilla being great at many things and comparable in one thing to Isadora is a big deal. To be willing to spend 24k worth of items on Isadora but argue against spending 10k on a godly unit is insane to me. Canas and Lucius promoting do absolutely nothing to hurt Priscilla promoting, so why wouldn't you do it when she's the best unit for the Experience rank?

Training your healer - even when you're rushing through for Tactics, which Priscilla is well equipped to do - is an insurmountable accomplishment that Isadora cannot touch.

tl;dr how can you argue against promoting Priscillla but have no qualms with spending 14k more gold on Isadora?

----

For rescuing Hector, period, Noble Lady of Caelin, Whereabouts Unknown, Imprisoner of Magic, Dragon's Gate, Pale Flower of Darkness, Night of Farewells, Cog of Destiny, and Victory or Death, are all hardly "just one chapter".

We were talking about promoted Hector, which was one of your arguments against Florina and Priscilla getting the Body Ring.

But, if you want to talk about unpromoted Hector, which you seem to want to based on the maps you listed, not only are some of these maps places where Florina and Priscilla exist, consider that giving a Body Ring to Isadora will render her incapable of rescuing unpromoted Hector.

So Isadora burns 8k gold and is now the only mounted unit not named Vaia totally useless for helping Hector get to the throne faster via Aid, or she doesn't get it and ends up with garbage durability because anything not an Iron Sword slows her down significantly. Her weapon triangle "control" - which you mentioned against Florina - comes with a minimum of a 4 AS loss with an Axe if you don't give her the Body Ring, but if you give it to her, the thing you've been talking about with her Aid and helping Hector is impossible. Suddenly Isadora using axes isn't actually a decent advantage for her.

You know what this means? Isadora does not help efficiency runs at all with the Body Ring, and she also does not help standard ranking with the Body Ring, because she's incapable of helping the most important unit that needs to be rescued, which gives all the other units an even larger reason to be used over her. This isn't just "Oh they're better so Isadora is not good." This is "Isadora is actually not good, and they're better, which does not help her situation."

I admit that her speed being high is a blessing that allows her some nice DA action. I'm just considering that this awesome DA action is tied to 28 HP, 8 Def, and 6 Con which will still hit her Avo even if she can DA. That's worse than like... level 12 HHM Guy. Oh, and while her HP increases decently and her Avo goes up, her actual Defense stays bad and her Con stays the same. She is frail the entire game no matter how you try to slice it, unless you spend 24,000g on her. That is a big investment... and no,

True. But when playing efficiently, or even just playing the game, it doesn't hurt to make the most of what you have.

it absolutely DOES hurt, because you could spend that 24k on:

- promoting a lord and having some left over, so now a lord can continue to contribute to experience and tactics rank

- giving like two stat boosts to other units, like the Angelic Robe to Florina that you supposedly don't get automatically from Lyn's Mode (even though the tier list assumes Lyn's Mode.......)

- promoting two other units and having some left over, so now they can contribute to experience and tactics rank

- promoting a Thief late game and doing 32x for a massive XP boost to your most difficult rank - which you can calculate if Funds will let you do this because all that's left for Funds is S-rank weapons

- secret shop items if you really were hard up for gold (not recommended but certainly better than giving Isadora +2 Def)

Oooor you could not spend it for similar reasons.

You realize that these are real opportunity costs you're throwing away just so Isadora gets 3 shot instead of 2 shot later in the game, right?

Apologies if I did not address everything you wanted me to address, but I wanted to make my point a bit more salient.

EDIT: There was one more thing I wanted to address.

There's nothing that dictates that you're allowed to use no more than 3 or 4 Pallies, a Valk, and 4 or 5 fliers, or anything that ever says that an additional mounted unit at any time is a bad thing. The better question is "why not?".

While it is true that there's no direct penalty for stacking additional mounted units, you also need to consider if you really need one more Rescue - the one that's actually weakest of mounted units if you use a Body Ring. One more Axe user - the only one with atrocious Con. One more mounted melee unit - the one with some of the worst combat stats around. One more Paladin - the one that costs 24,000G instead of 10,000G for a superior unit, or 8,000G if you boost Marcus, or free if you don't.

"Why not?" Because you have units that don't do what she does that also can be fielded.

Every promoted caster heals and has ranged attacks. All but Nino are valuable. Staff utility in this game is real. 1-2 range and hitting Res at the same time is fantastic.

Matthew and Legault have jobs that can only be replaced by each other. If there are valuable items, they get a slot. Period.

Nobody does what Ninils does. They automatically get a slot.

There are other vastly superior combat units that aren't mounted, not mentioned already. These include Raven, Hawkeye, Geitz, Harken, and Guy. They may have disadvantages to Isadora such as no horse or coming later or being sword-locked, but their positives may include availability, boosting the experience & tactics ranks, and/or being simply superior at combat.

"Why not?" Because you have many units in her position that are better.

After a certain point, you don't need 9 mounted units - Isadora being the 9th behind Marcus, Kent, Sain, Lowen, Fiora, Florina, Heath, and Priscilla.

After a certain point, you don't actually need a sixth Axe user on your team, and make no mistake when I say Isadora is worse at using axes than Hector and every other Paladin.

After a certain point, you need to realize that spending 24,000G on someone who can "make the best use of the stats" means nothing when she's still completely inferior to everyone else.

I cannot stress the last point enough. Yes, I've seen you say that everyone else being good doesn't make Isadora bad. What I'm trying to drill home here is Isadora with three unwarranted stat boosts being worse than every other mounted unit - slightly or largely - is completely terrible, because you're burning up money to take a weak unit and make her not as weak, when you could spend your money elsewhere like I outlined above.

I firmly believe that this unit is incredibly overrated. Sure, a lot of people say that she's really good, but that doesn't change any of my points about how she has to be pampered so that she's usable. Every deep argument I've seen in favor of Isadora involves stat boosts, because even people who defend her admit that she's already under par when you get her and needs a boost to not get slaughtered. That's why you're giving her three boosts, right?

Edited by Brinzy

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Late edit: I just realized that the threads you linked do not account for ranked. Had I known this, I wouldn't have put any stock into either of those threads. Of course Isadora is better in an unranked mode, because costing more than other units to get going while ignoring what makes the other units so strong to begin with both work in her favor. Still not good, but nonetheless...

What makes you think that assuming a ranked run matters more? Besides anyone who's good on an unranked run is good on a ranked run. The fact that they might need stat boosters to improve their performance only means that they're slightly less effective on a ranked run. Which shouldn't be too much trouble to work around, one way or another.

First and foremost, those threads you linked say a few things. In the standard tier list thread, Isadora is Upper Mid and right next to Canas. This one seems a lot more accurate to me, because in that other thread, Matthew and Serra are a 6 when Isadora is an 8.

That's because one of those RTUs (specifically, the one that wasn't done by one of the foremost gameplay experts in this fandom) don't account for availability as much as tier lists do. It wouldn't be too surprising that either Matt or Serra would get anything lower than a 7 for instance because the two of them, quite honestly, are pretty poor combat units.

If you're doing a true ranked run - 5 stars in each rank - there is no possible way Matthew isn't a top tier, and Serra is no lower than high tier. Personally I view them both as top tier because one helps Funds like nobody else can and the other helps Experience like only one person reasonably can, while having a level lead.

It's completely possible to do a "true" ranked run, without promoting a unit that doesn't need a promotion to contribute such as Priscilla or Serra.

To say that Isadora is an "8" while they're a 6 is reason enough for me to completely ignore that thread. This isn't a slight against Isadora; this just means that whatever metrics they're going by is completely unimportant to this discussion.

For the record, dondon's thread gave Serra an 8, Matt a 7.5, and Isadora a 7.

Now, looking at the standard tier list thread, I would say like 70% of who she is above is justified because they have crippling flaws. I would not argue that Eliwood, Canas, Guy, Lyn, and Dorcas are worse than her, because all of these units contribute quite well to the experience rank (the most difficult rank, IMO). Furthermore, they are all a lot more likely to improve Tactics; between Prf. weapons, Luna-killing, or high early game base stats, they can all realistically make a difference in their early to mid game chapters, or in the case of Canas, single-handedly shave turns off of bosses, which yes, is a gigantic deal.

Bosses aren't the be-all-and-end-all of the entirety of the enemies in this game. Not to mention, Prf weapons are only helpful for so long before they finally manage to break (and there's other weapons that do their jobs). High earlygame stats matter more if the unit that has them is on a horse and has stuff like WTC (like Marcus). And as for EXP rank contribution, those you listed aren't unique in that they can contribute towards it. But at the same time, you don't see units like Nino in the high tier because using her greatly helps the EXP rank, now do you?

That's six bosses right there where Luna would help. What you're ignoring or not counting is that Luna has high accuracy and crit rating while ignoring boss Res from everyone. This means that Canas, having high Res himself, would be the best mage for killing the other mages (you left out Kenneth), a strong candidate for killing scary melee units (Darin, all five encounters with the Reed family), and the myriad of dangerous units you run into throughout the game, like the female druids in Cog of Destiny.

And this ignores that melee units can help dispatch magic users with greater proficiency than someone who uses an overrated tome (this includes Kenneth, who has WTA over Canas), the fact that even Marcus has trouble with the Reed Bros. (who are easily taken out with a Berserk staff use in Endgame), and that Darin can be easily taken care of with anti-armor weapons. The only magic users that melee units would face the greatest trouble from are Sonia, Limstella, and Nergal. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't reach them faster than someone who's primarily a spellcaster, though.

http://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/characters/boss-data/hard-mode/stats/

Really, take a look. You can't say that Luna isn't that big a deal when... it very clearly is.

Again, bosses aren't the be-all-and-end-all of the entirety of the enemies in this game. Nevermind the fact that there's only few of those bosses that Canas would be realistically facing in the first place.

As for the stuff about Priscilla, you said that we aren't likely promoting Erk because Pent exists...

There's also the fact that he has less to gain from a Guiding Ring use than even Serra. A fact that's highlighted by his E staves upon promotion and lack of Dark Magic.

The HHM tier list places Priscilla in top, where she belongs, because she contributes to Exp in a unique way before promotion

EXP rank contribution has nothing to do with it. The reason why she's in top tier is the reason why she doesn't mind not getting a promotion: Because she's a mounted medic who's around for earlygame and midgame.

so not promoting her would be completely silly.

EXP gain and a way to defend herself would be the only real things that Priscilla would even earn from a promotion in the first place. Coupled with the fact that healers gain EXP at a slow rate, I hardly see why not promoting Priscilla is "completely silly". Even dondon, the aforementioned expert, acknowledges Priscilla is hard to raise, and wouldn't mind if she didn't get a promotion.

Canas and Lucius promoting do absolutely nothing to hurt Priscilla promoting, so why wouldn't you do it when she's the best unit for the Experience rank?

How many times must I spell it out for you? Healers gain EXP at a slow rate. She's only getting 11-12 EXP per staff use before more expensive staves come by. Which isn't helped by the fact that the first 12 chapters can be easily completed in 6 turns on average. Even if the fact that Priscilla's on a horse helps her be within range of any potential healing targets, there's still the issue of those targets even existing in the first place.

But, if you want to talk about unpromoted Hector, which you seem to want to based on the maps you listed, not only are some of these maps places where Florina and Priscilla exist, consider that giving a Body Ring to Isadora will render her incapable of rescuing unpromoted Hector.

There shouldn't be any reason why Isadora is rescuing Hector in the first place when you've got two, and later, four units that can do that job.

or she doesn't get the Body Ring and ends up with garbage durability because anything not an Iron Sword slows her down significantly.

And outside of ranks, I have trouble understanding why someone would want to gimp a unit who makes among the best use of such an item. Its like asking why would you give Marcus a Speedwing? or why you would give Caeda a Seraph Robe?

You know what this means? Isadora does not help efficiency runs at all with the Body Ring, and she also does not help standard ranking with the Body Ring, because she's incapable of helping the most important unit that needs to be rescued, which gives all the other units an even larger reason to be used over her.

It's not as big of a deal as you're making it seem. Seeing as her offense is pretty respectable for her jointime, and giving her something that can help her offense can help her maintain a spot of the team for a good while.

This isn't just "Oh they're better so Isadora is not good."

That's precisely all I'm hearing from you. Because you're the only one who seems to vehemently think that Isadora's an absolutely terrible unit when such a notion has been disproven already. And a long time ago at that.

I admit that her speed being high is a blessing that allows her some nice DA action. I'm just considering that this awesome DA action is tied to 28 HP, 8 Def, and 6 Con which will still hit her Avo even if she can DA. That's worse than like... level 12 HHM Guy.

Who isn't on a horse or has any WTC.

- promoting a lord and having some left over, so now a lord can continue to contribute to experience and tactics rank

Considering that a Heaven Seal can be sold to help stock up at the armory, you get more from not opting to promote a Lord at all. To say nothing of the fact that you're getting results from using Eliwood and Lyn that don't exactly do much to justify the effort.

- giving like two stat boosts to other units, like the Angelic Robe to Florina that you supposedly don't get automatically from Lyn's Mode

Implying that Florina needs a stat booster to be useful.

- promoting two other units and having some left over, so now they can contribute to experience and tactics rank

The only units get the most out of a promotion are Sain, Kent, Canas, Lucius, Raven, the fliers, and Rath. That isnt to say that all of them are gonna be promoted. And Lol @ thinking Isadora cant contribute towards the EXP rank herself, when possible.

- promoting a Thief late game and doing 32x for a massive XP boost to your most difficult rank - which you can calculate if Funds will let you do this because all that's left for Funds is S-rank weapons

This is pretty hypocritical here. You argue against spending around 16k on a mounted who makes good use of that money due to her combat being decent at the least, and yet youd argue in favor in spending around 50k on a grounded unit who has WORSE combat than the former? And for something that doesnt even require them to be promoted? Um What, exactly, am I reading here?

- secret shop items if you really were hard up for gold (not recommended but certainly better than giving Isadora +2 Def)

You have other means of paying for such items.

You realize that these are real opportunity costs you're throwing away just so Isadora gets 3 shot instead of 2 shot later in the game, right?

And other units have similar durability later in the game, even with taking a Dracoshield and/or a Seraph Robe despite not needing either. What, exactly, is your point here?

While it is true that there's no direct penalty for stacking additional mounted units, you also need to consider if you really need one more Rescue - the one that's actually weakest of mounted units if you use a Body Ring. One more Axe user - the only one with atrocious Con.

Which is buffered by her naturally high AS. Not to mention, most of the lance users in the game are weak enough for someone like her to take care of with no trouble at all.

One more mounted melee unit - the one with some of the worst combat stats around.

13 base Str and 16 base Spd are hardly what Id call the worst combat stats around.

One more Paladin - the one that costs 24,000G instead of 10,000G for a superior unit, or 8,000G if you boost Marcus, or free if you don't.

Again, not as big of a deal as youre making it sound.

Every promoted caster heals and has ranged attacks.

And all but one of them dont have mounts.

Matthew and Legault have jobs that can only be replaced by each other. If there are valuable items, they get a slot.

Not forever. The amount of items actually worth stealing decrease in number as the game progresses. By lategame, there isnt a reason to field either thief at all.

There are other vastly superior combat units that aren't mounted, not mentioned already. These include Raven, Hawkeye, Geitz, Harken

Geitz isnt guaranteed a slot on the team, as getting him requires you to use two units who are worse than Isadora is. As for Harken, he actually does give you a reason to use Isadora, seeing as hes her boyfriend.

and Guy.

Swordlock, no horse, and iffy offense. Next!

After a certain point, you don't need 9 mounted units - Isadora being the 9th behind Marcus, Kent, Sain, Lowen, Fiora, Florina, Heath, and Priscilla.

Again, having another mounted unit is never a bad thing.

After a certain point, you don't actually need a sixth Axe user on your team, and make no mistake when I say Isadora is worse at using axes than Hector and every other Paladin.

Axes arent really great of a weapon due to their general inaccuracy. Theres a reason why Dart for instance is often mentioned to be better off benched after a certain point in the game.

After a certain point, you need to realize that spending 24,000G on someone who can "make the best use of the stats" means nothing when she's still completely inferior to everyone else.

Which again, doesnt make her bad.

What I'm trying to drill home here is Isadora with three unwarranted stat boosts

Oh, come on, now. How does reducing her AS loss make one of those stat boosts unwarranted. I also forgot to mention that she might not even need a durability boost seeing as her HP growth is high.

being worse than every other mounted unit

Since when were Farina and Vaida every other mounted unit?

I firmly believe that this unit is incredibly overrated. Sure, a lot of people say that she's really good, but that doesn't change any of my points about how she has to be pampered so that she's usable. Every deep argument I've seen in favor of Isadora involves stat boosts, because even people who defend her admit that she's already under par when you get her and needs a boost to not get slaughtered.

Well, they do say that opinions can only go so far. If one maintains a viewpoint very few people actually agree with (if anyone), more likely than not, that viewpoint is wrong.

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What makes you think that assuming a ranked run matters more? Besides anyone who's good on an unranked run is good on a ranked run. The fact that they might need stat boosters to improve their performance only means that they're slightly less effective on a ranked run. Which shouldn't be too much trouble to work around, one way or another.

Because if the run is unranked, turn count, experience points, and funding don't matter anywhere near as much as they do in the discussion we're having?

This should be fairly obvious. Of course if you pretend that there's no gigantic penalty for shoving 24k worth of stats to a random unit - you know, while ignoring opportunity costs - then a unit is going to be seen as better. It is not completely true to say that a unit that is good on unranked is good on ranked, because some units that are good or even decent on unranked, like Dart and Farina, are a lot worse in ranked when their promotion or even just presence hits Funds and takes a slot from a unit that does more for less.

And if you're going to support unranked mode, then pray tell, what are you doing exactly that makes Priscilla so difficult for you to promote? I should also mention that earlier, you claimed Erk wasn't getting promoted because he doesn't have an A in staff and Pent exists... but yet here you are, justifying dumping all this money into Isadora when Kent, Sain, and Lowen exist.

What I'm saying here is you're contradicting yourself. You can't sit here and say that four paladins and three fliers that performs Isadora's role better doesn't hurt Isadora and then say that Erk somehow is invalidated by Pent existing. You also can't sit here and say that "oh well it's unranked so it's just as valid" and then come up with the notion that you can't promote Priscilla, or that you don't have time to. If you're going to factor in time, then you are, indeed, talking about turn count, and that is the Tactics ranking.

Let me make something clear: when I said Isadora is not good and you decided to respond to me, I was fully talking about ranked.

However, if you're the type to do ranked runs, I'm of the opinion that there is never a reason anyone should get a Body Ring over Florina if you're using her, much less a unit that is inferior in virtually every single regard to Florina sans being able to use stuff like axes... yay?

So... why are you talking to me about an unranked list that doesn't care if Isadora eats everything in the pantry and leaves the army with nothing? I mean, why stop there - since this is unranked, let's give Isadora every stat boost we have available to us, give her an A with Harken in three chapters, give her a second Body Ring and the Boots, and allow her to solo every map to prove how good she is... for reasons.
When you start talking about unranked play, you open up an entire world that is based on arbitration and is open to slippery slope. That is why I talked about actual metrics in the game that are not arbitrary, such as the Funds ranking which is hurt by Isadora, a pre-promoted unit, getting a gold investment higher than you'd EVER spend on anyone else.

That's because one of those RTUs (specifically, the one that wasn't done by one of the foremost gameplay experts in this fandom) don't account for availability as much as tier lists do. It wouldn't be too surprising that either Matt or Serra would get anything lower than a 7 for instance because the two of them, quite honestly, are pretty poor combat units.

It's completely possible to do a "true" ranked run, without promoting a unit that doesn't need a promotion to contribute such as Priscilla or Serra.

For the record, dondon's thread gave Serra an 8, Matt a 7.5, and Isadora a 7.

My point is not that these threads don't have insight. My point is these threads are based on metrics that I am not basing the game off of.

Also, you're walking into a losing battle if you say that ranked runs don't need to promote Priscilla and Serra when you're also promoting the idea of using Isadora and feeding her multiple stat boosts. Priscilla and Serra will contribute, very easily, far more experience from a pool that nobody else can touch until Pent or a caster promotes. Being lower level, they will contribute more raw experience. Once promoted, for 20,000g together, they will gain boosted experience from combat and will actually be a better choice for feeding kills to when possible (Experience & Combat ratings).

Add to this being able to push farther into the enemy line thanks to these units healing you (Tactics & Survival), needing just 600G Heal staves and Silver Card purchased staves to heal from a distance or get fast experience and just a simple promotion item (Funds), there is absolutely no good reason to NOT promote them.

Please don't try to tell me that your Isadora that is being fed three items worth more than Priscilla or Serra will spend the entire game is something that people should do, yet promoting the healers is something that you don't have to do. If I don't have to make one of the most sensible decisions in the game when it comes to ranking, I most certainly don't have to give Isadora any experience, let alone waste money on her.

Bosses aren't the be-all-and-end-all of the entirety of the enemies in this game. Not to mention, Prf weapons are only helpful for so long before they finally manage to break (and there's other weapons that do their jobs). High earlygame stats matter more if the unit that has them is on a horse and has stuff like WTC (like Marcus). And as for EXP rank contribution, those you listed aren't unique in that they can contribute towards it. But at the same time, you don't see units like Nino in the high tier because using her greatly helps the EXP rank, now do you?

And this ignores that melee units can help dispatch magic users with greater proficiency than someone who uses an overrated tome (this includes Kenneth, who has WTA over Canas), the fact that even Marcus has trouble with the Reed Bros. (who are easily taken out with a Berserk staff use in Endgame), and that Darin can be easily taken care of with anti-armor weapons. The only magic users that melee units would face the greatest trouble from are Sonia, Limstella, and Nergal. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't reach them faster than someone who's primarily a spellcaster, though.

Again, bosses aren't the be-all-and-end-all of the entirety of the enemies in this game. Nevermind the fact that there's only few of those bosses that Canas would be realistically facing in the first place.

There's also the fact that he has less to gain from a Guiding Ring use than even Serra. A fact that's highlighted by his E staves upon promotion and lack of Dark Magic.

The unique thing about the units I listed compared to Isadora is that they don't need to be fed random stat boosts to succeed, they are all lower leveled than Isadora, they all come before Isadora, and they all have traits that make them actually attractive to use when you get them.

Eli & Lyn are lords that may be forced in deployment with very good weapons. Who cares if the weapon breaks later on - that's 40/45 uses of a powerful weapon that others cannot use. Furthermore, you're not obligated to promote either of them, so unlike Isadora who needs - yes, needs - stat boosters to be worth using permanently, you can just use Eli for early horse/bandit killing without destroying your Rapier totally, and you could actually use one weapon on Lyn and not spend a single gold for it. Again, if you're gonna argue something like, "Oh yeah, well the Horseslayer and Hammer can kill people too!", then I'm going to argue state that you were already given four superior paladins before Isadora has seen a map.

Canas has access to Dark magic. You can downplay how effective Luna killing is all you want, but the bottom line is that it's a unique tool that favors the use of Canas. While it isn't necessary to promote him, doing so will allow him to destroy late game bosses. Nobody said that the bosses were the only thing on the map - all I'm saying is that downplaying his ability to kill bosses on top of killing strong magic users and anything else on the map just like any other mage would is being disingenuous to why he's a good character and why you don't have to fish very hard to use him. You list reasons as to why you wouldn't promote Canas, but something tells me that an E in staff (when you have a minimum of two other strong staff users on the map anyway?) and a lack of Dark Magic (which is false, BTW) are not larger reasons to avoid Canas than, ummm, pumping 24,000g into a unit that's strictly outclassed by several more units?

You're going into detail about how you can do other things to kill bosses. Nobody said that you couldn't. What I'm saying - for the last time on this point - is that Canas offers something throughout the game that nobody else offers, and that + a good class, a low level, decent availability, and a game mode where Anima dominates makes him not just a good character, but a unique asset. I'm not splitting hairs about other strategies; I'm just reminding you that units that can do something that nobody or almost nobody can reasonably do (Hector, Marcus, Oswin early game, Serra, Priscilla, Matthew, Florina, Canas, and a few others depending on the time of the game) is a plus. A plus that Isadora does not have.

Guy & Dorcas don't have special draws to them like the above three. Rather, they are very strong early game and are strong enough to contribute meaningfully to the experience rank later on should you choose to wait. Getting 10-12 levels on these two units is not difficult because they're already gaining experience early on from being strong characters, and neither of them has to promote.

Isadora's only unique factor is that she needs, you guessed it, 24,000g to be used permanently.

As for Nino, she is one of those clearly flawed characters that I listed earlier that I can see being worse than Isadora, because if you actually decide to put resources into Isadora and then feed her kills, chances are you're using her for more than one chapter, unlike Nino who really shouldn't be fielded after that. What you don't understand is that you're given 28 turns to clear Night of Farewells, and even if you finish the map in half that time (which most people do, if not faster). In those 14 turns, Nino can contribute a lot more to the Experience rank than Isadora and be promptly benched the next chapter without taking a single stat booster or a promotion item. This does not mean that Nino is a better unit overall than Isadora, but it does mean that Nino needs nothing but a forced deployment to be worth a ton more than Isadora's forced deployment map.

Do you understand why I keep coming back to the stat boosters? Without them, Isadora goes from being underwhelming to pathetic if you're planning on long term use.

EXP rank contribution has nothing to do with it. The reason why she's in top tier is the reason why she doesn't mind not getting a promotion: Because she's a mounted medic who's around for earlygame and midgame.

EXP gain and a way to defend herself would be the only real things that Priscilla would even earn from a promotion in the first place. Coupled with the fact that healers gain EXP at a slow rate, I hardly see why not promoting Priscilla is "completely silly". Even dondon, the aforementioned expert, acknowledges Priscilla is hard to raise, and wouldn't mind if she didn't get a promotion.

Exp rank contribution has 100% to do with what I'm talking about, so if that's not what you're talking about, then this discussion is pointless.

How many times must I spell it out for you? Healers gain EXP at a slow rate. She's only getting 11-12 EXP per staff use before more expensive staves come by. Which isn't helped by the fact that the first 12 chapters can be easily completed in 6 turns on average. Even if the fact that Priscilla's on a horse helps her be within range of any potential healing targets, there's still the issue of those targets even existing in the first place.

There shouldn't be any reason why Isadora is rescuing Hector in the first place when you've got two, and later, four units that can do that job.

If you're doing speed runs of Fire Emblem - which you are because you're finishing every early chapter in 6 turns on average - can you explain to me why you would pick a unit as terrible as Isadora when you could take superior units that have been keeping the pace going and make them even better? If we're playing a game of Musical Chairs where only Hector can win, can you explain to me why we're giving a Body Ring to a unit that will immediately be unable to Rescue Hector? If Isadora is not there to Rescue Hector, why do we care if she's mounted again when she gets torn up easily and can't charge deep into the enemy lines to begin with? Why are we not fielding any of the foot units that are vastly superior to Isadora in combat or utility if the only utility she has isn't being used?

And outside of ranks, I have trouble understanding why someone would want to gimp a unit who makes among the best use of such an item. Its like asking why would you give Marcus a Speedwing? or why you would give Caeda a Seraph Robe?

Actually it's nothing like that, because Marcus and Caeda are very clearly good units. The other question is why would I want someone who is so gimp that I need to give them stat boosters on my team when I could field somebody else who doesn't need the stat boosters and either not use the boosters or give them to units that don't stay inferior with boosts.

But anyway, "outside of ranks" is outside of my point.

That's precisely all I'm hearing from you. Because you're the only one who seems to vehemently think that Isadora's an absolutely terrible unit when such a notion has been disproven already. And a long time ago at that.

Terrible is relative, and relativity is key.

Of course she's better than the likes of Karla and Wil. However, if you need to spend extra money fixing up a unit that is statistically inferior to the many other units that can do what she does, which I have already shown in this discussion, then it does make her a poor option, because in addition to justifying use over or with said units, you need to justify her use over at least one unit that you're dropping. You can say that Isadora's been proven to be so good long ago all you want (and your proof threads, for the umpteenth time, have nothing to do with ranked play - specifically 24,000g, which is precisely what I'm discussing), but when I see a unit that is statistically inferior to units similar to her, and I have a limited number of slots to fill where I need to use other strong units that aren't like Isadora? Yes, I'm going to view her as a terrible pick.

When I say terrible, I am saying "Isadora is a unit strictly better than like 15 rabble-rousers, and she comes with certain advantages over a few units about equal to her, but she is not better than units that share her class and units with superior utility and/or combat to her, so because of this she usually has to sit on the bench." Does that make you feel better? I hope so, because she's teeeerrible.

nitpicks about listed units

Saying stuff like "Oh Guy doesn't have a horse" is mad nitpicky coming from someone who said that you shouldn't promote Canas because he only gains an E in Staff. That would be like me invalidating Isadora compared to Vaida because "can't fly" or compared to Renault because "A in staff."

Also I find it very bemusing that you don't see a reason Florina could get one Angelic Robe - one of which is in a game mode separate from the main story which you want to pretend won't be played when the threads you linked assume it.

Also also, it's clear we're not even at the same page of this discussion because you're selling Heaven Seals for money now. Good grief. Then how about I sell those three stat boosters that you're arguing nobody else could use as well as Isadora for even more money? If nobody else needs them like she does and I don't use her, why not sell them, too?

The only units get the most out of a promotion are Sain, Kent, Canas, Lucius, Raven, the fliers, and Rath. That isnt to say that all of them are gonna be promoted. And Lol @ thinking Isadora cant contribute towards the EXP rank herself, when possible.

Uhhh, contradiction?

There's also the fact that he has less to gain from a Guiding Ring use than even Serra. A fact that's highlighted by his E staves upon promotion and lack of Dark Magic.

I'm just going to assume your rebuttal against me saying that 24,000g can be spent elsewhere is, "Well sure, you can promote some other units but here's ONLY like ten units that I think are worth it!" You know, while ignoring the rest of them. Also, the reason I included contributing to the experience rank upon promotion is because units at level 20 don't contribute to experience... so if you promote them... they can contribute to experience. I made that point as obvious as I reasonably could.

Besides, if you DO use Isadora in a ranked run for experience, she can only gain like 3-5 levels safely at most because 1) you have other units to use that gain exp faster than her, 2) you aren't boosting her in HHM ranked, and 3) she's already promoted and will only die horribly if you wait until units are much higher leveled to train her.

This is pretty hypocritical here. You argue against spending around 16k on a mounted who makes good use of that money due to her combat being decent at the least, and yet youd argue in favor in spending around 50k on a grounded unit who has WORSE combat than the former? And for something that doesnt even require them to be promoted? Um What, exactly, am I reading here?

My point here is that if I'm ranking the game and I get to the end of the game and realize I can burn Funds and stay at 5 stars while training Matthew to get a ton of free exp in 32x... it is worth spending that money instead of on a unit that is not going to be a staple member of your team because you only have a few staples to choose from since the other slots need to be filled by lower leveled units.

I'm not saying it is something you should do. I'm explaining to you that things you can reasonably do if you DON'T boost Isadora do not become possible if you take an inferior action.

And other units have similar durability later in the game, even with taking a Dracoshield and/or a Seraph Robe despite not needing either. What, exactly, is your point here?

First off that's a lie, if you're going to tell me that Isadora has the same durability late game as anyone on this list to name a few if they take 7 HP / 2 Def:

Hector

Eliwood (promoted)

Lowen

Kent

Sain

Florina

Fiora

Heath

Raven

Harken

Pent

Serra (would have SAME DEF at 20/10 as Isadora and more HP and a lot more Res and Luck)

Priscilla (see above)

then you are making things up.

Second, you named my point: Isadora is below these units to begin with in durability, except Priscilla (slightly more HP - ignoring massive Res lead against late game mages) and Serra (Priscilla with more HP). Bringing one unit up to subpar and losing the opportunity to either buff other units or spend that money on something else entirely is a big deal in a tactics game, whether you want to acknowledge this or not.

Which is buffered by her naturally high AS. Not to mention, most of the lance users in the game are weak enough for someone like her to take care of with no trouble at all.

13 base Str and 16 base Spd are hardly what Id call the worst combat stats around.

Again, not as big of a deal as youre making it sound.

Yeah, supposedly giving someone THREE STAT BOOSTS is not a big deal. Also I appreciate that you pointed out her Strength and Speed to say, "oh yeah her combat isn't so bad" while ignoring her trashy stats that would make her die easily. Not sure why though because even those aren't impressive.

Oh wow, 13 Strength, how impressive. That's 3 more than a level 5 HHM Raven! Wow, 16 Speed! That's.... uh, one more than a level 5 HHM Raven. Oh she has the same Skill... only two more Defense... less HP!?

Oh right, this is BASE Raven.

Hey if you want to gloss over all the shortcomings this character has to point out some Speed, can I remind you that this base 16 Speed of hers doesn't exist when you use any real weapon besides an Iron Sword?

And all but one of them dont have mounts.

This is a terrible rebuttal. Actually, this isn't even a rebuttal, this is a nitpick. Saying that "Oh but at least she has a horse" to try to invalidate the usefulness of promoted casters is flimsy, much like the character you're defending. You can't nitpick on Canas having an E in staff when Isadora doesn't even heal. Notice how I haven't ever said that Isadora is bad because she doesn't heal, because that's a flimsy ass nitpick. However, I did say that other characters healing is a good thing, and yes, there's a key difference.

I mean really, you wouldn't field trained casters just so you can use Isadora? Do you actually take advantage of 2 range? Do you understand why Isadora is one of the worst units for this? Casters having range at all times, along with maps with not-so-trivial enemies, means a horse advantage, especially late game, especially on a frail unit like Isadora, is not a gigantic deal when you need units that can ignore counters from most things and have high Res for the rest. It's only two movement, which isn't even flight so it can still be reduced.

Given how bad she is at ranged weapons, you should also understand that she is only "decent" at attacking from four squares while casters can attack 12 squares, which shores up their lower movement.

Once again, just because you think having a horse makes a unit worth using does not make it so. Part of what makes a horse useful is Rescuing - which Isadora is trash at because you gave her a Body Ring. Another part is being able to frontline and charge ahead - which Isadora is trash at because of her low concrete defenses and unimpressive Avo.

Not forever. The amount of items actually worth stealing decrease in number as the game progresses. By lategame, there isnt a reason to field either thief at all.

Good thing there's more to the game than lategame, you know, like the two chapters after Isadora joins where she won't get fielded over a Thief, or the later chapters like Battle Before Dawn where a thief not only makes the map easier but is required to grab the Earth Seal from the druid.

Geitz isnt guaranteed a slot on the team, as getting him requires you to use two units who are worse than Isadora is. As for Harken, he actually does give you a reason to use Isadora, seeing as hes her boyfriend.

LOL, you're actually going to sit here and say that people don't go to Linus map (22 turns vs. 11 turns, more arena usage vs. less arena usage, Geitz vs. Wallace) because they have to use Eliwood and Lyn, who get fielded in some maps anyway, exist before Isadora, and have actual maps where at least one of them is strong enough to be used (... every chapter except maybe 17)? This is pure nonsense.

Pure.

Complete.

Total.

Unadulterated.

Nitpicky.

Nonsense.

Swordlock, no horse, and iffy offense. Next!

Oh iffy offense? Let's see, at level 3 he has 5 less Str, 1 MORE skill, and 3 less Speed. Almost the same durability by the way. By level 9, he has the same speed as Isadora and gets this before she even exists.

By the time he promotes, which actually could be when Isadora joins if one so chooses (although it should be slightly later, like on Linus map), Guy has 42 HP, 15 Str, 20 Skl, 20 Spd, 12 Luck, 10 Def, and 6 Res, plus free crit rating. You are absolutely crazy if you think Guy has iffy offense but Isadora with her 6 Con, less Strength, less Speed, and inferior raw defenses and Avo is better.

Sword locked? Who cares, Isadora gets mauled if she uses an Axe and can't go above Iron Lance without getting dumped on. Cool she can toss Javelins and Hand Axes... and drop to base 11 and 10 Speed respectively! How impressive, now she's not even doubling most units at range!

No horse? Who cares, Isadora only has two more Move with it and can't go far anyway without getting mauled. Besides, how important is her 8 move when her next maps are

desert

Genesis

Reed map w/ strong ass units ahead of her

three point map with narrow paths, forests, and units that'll murder her

defense map

snow map

three maps with units that will murder her for going ahead, especially Cog of Destiny where everyone attacks her at range and forces her to sit there and fight

map she won't get fielded on

defense map

map with strong units that she can't contribute much to because you gave her a Body Ring and she can't Rescue Hector

map she has no business being on

How about we talk about Isadora's lack of durability or her lack of availability or her lack of an actual reason to be fielded besides "well ummm u totally could to be cool"

Really, you're going to talk about a horse while we talk about the unit that is THE LEAST useful with her horse to attempt to invalidate Guy, an actual good unit?

Again, having another mounted unit is never a bad thing.

Having a bad unit is a bad thing. Giving that bad unit 24,000g of items is horrific.

Axes arent really great of a weapon due to their general inaccuracy. Theres a reason why Dart for instance is often mentioned to be better off benched after a certain point in the game.

So if Axes aren't that great of a weapon, and Isadora sucks with Axes, can you stop pretending like Isadora being able to use axes means anything? Thanks.

Which again, doesnt make her bad.

When this unit NEEDS boosts?

When giving said boosts cuts into Funds ranking?

When no other unit gets to use any of those boosts, despite how you swear nobody else, not even Florina with an Angelic Robe, could benefit from it?

When it's going to a unit that is not helpful on Tactics once she receives it, because giving her the stat boost makes her incapable of holding Hector while real combat units clear a path?

When said unit could be benched in favor of many units that are superior to her in combat and/or have greater utility because, once again, you give her an item that cuts into her only utility?

YES. That is the hallmark of a bad character.

Oh, come on, now. How does reducing her AS loss make one of those stat boosts unwarranted. I also forgot to mention that she might not even need a durability boost seeing as her HP growth is high.

Why would I reduce an AS loss on a character that doesn't warrant use to begin with when I could simply not use her, not use the boost, and spend the theoretical money elsewhere?

Please don't even try to argue that Isadora might not need the durability increase after all, because that's a gigantic joke which undermines your entire previous argument with no ground to stand upon because Isadora will have the worst defenses on your team of any promoted melee unit and her high movement and "high offense" will be compromised because of it.

Since when were Farina and Vaida every other mounted unit?

Oh hey look, you're nitpicking again even though I've clearly avoided comparing Isadora to Farina and Vaida this whole time.

At least by going out of your way to nitpick yet again, you've named Isadora the 3rd worst mounted unit after you've spent resources on her anyway. You know, behind Rath, who earlier I argued could be better than Isadora.

Well, they do say that opinions can only go so far. If one maintains a viewpoint very few people actually agree with (if anyone), more likely than not, that viewpoint is wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

What's funny is those that say Isadora is good are talking in a context that we aren't talking about, or at least I'm not talking about.

Oh by the way, there are people in this very thread that agree Isadora isn't worth using. You may recall that it was you, in fact, that have made statements against two different people otherwise, and a third who repeated what I said about dropping gold on her. Not me.

Edited by Brinzy

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I'm pretty sure Isadora occupies the list of units that LTC/Drafting people find a little underrated.

IMO, she's a decent unit with some investment. Not like the Pegs need body rings. I guess she could stand the AS loss from hand axe use if she has a body ring.

It's been a long time since I've even attempted ltc/drafting, lol. Hopefully someone with a long record of fe7 drafts that remembers Isadora's potential big contributions.

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Well, I am not speaking against her for the sake of speed running the game. I can clearly see why she'd be usable there.

I'm speaking against her for the sake of ranking the game.

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Because if the run is unranked, turn count, experience points, and funding don't matter anywhere near as much as they do in the discussion we're having?

Not many people argue for ranked because of the fact that some of the ranks contradict each other. Especially in the case of the fact that Funds and EXP works against Tactics.

This should be fairly obvious. Of course if you pretend that there's no gigantic penalty for shoving 8-16k worth of stats to a random unit - you know, while ignoring opportunity costs - then a unit is going to be seen as better.

I'm not pretending anything. Im only merely stating the facts. Besides, other units have bigger opportunity costs bigger than Isadora's. Like Dart, Farina, and the Lords for instance.

It is not completely true to say that a unit that is good on unranked is good on ranked, because some units that are good or even decent on unranked, like Dart and Farina, are a lot worse in ranked when their promotion or even just presence hits Funds and takes a slot from a unit that does more for less.

The thing is, both of them are mediocre even on unranked because the Ocean Seal could be used for other things, Darts offense even when promoted might end up causing a lost turn at the least and a reset at the most, and Farina might not be recruited because the players going fast if he or she has the money or not.

And if you're going to support unranked mode, then pray tell, what are you doing exactly that makes Priscilla so difficult for you to promote?

What part of "even one of this fandom's foremost experts says that Priscilla is hard to promote under a reasonable time frame" are you finding difficult to understand here? I have briefly explained this ten times already, yet all it seems youve been doing in response to this is sticking your fingers in your ears. I shouldn't need to repeat myself here. Besides, even though Ive outlined the presence of 3 Guiding Rings earlier, only one of them can be realistically obtained without slowing yourself down.By giving Priscilla a Guiding Ring, youre taking something away from either Canas or Lucius. Nevermind that Prsiclla's 10/01 perimeters are pretty horrid for combat.

I should also mention that earlier, you claimed Erk wasn't getting promoted because he doesn't have an A in staff and Pent exists... but yet here you are, justifying dumping all this money into Isadora when Kent, Sain, and Lowen exist.

Ive already mentioned that Lowen has shakier long-term offense than Isadora does. (Seriously, how are bases of 7 with a growth of 30% in both Str and Spd NOT shaky?) Not to mention, like with Guiding Rings, theres a limited number of Knights Crests. You cant promote Sain, Kent, AND Lowen. Nevermind the fact that their offense isnt realistically at Isadoras level by the time she joins.

What I'm saying here is you're contradicting yourself. You can't sit here and say that four paladins and three fliers that performs Isadora's role better doesn't hurt Isadora and then say that Erk somehow is invalidated by Pent existing.

I honestly dont see how Im contradicting myself. I didnt say that Erk is invalidated by Pent existing. I only said that theres hardly a point to promote him even without considering Pent. Lucius has C staves, Priscilla has a horse and higher EXP gain (and for the record, this doesn't change what I said about her being hard to promote, but I felt like I should mention her advantages in comparison to Erk's), and Canas has a big AS boost.

I mean, why stop there - since this is unranked, let's give Isadora every stat boost we have available to us, give her an A with Harken in three chapters, give her a second Body Ring and the Boots, and allow her to solo every map to prove how good she is... for reasons.

I mentioned Harken only to help point out that combat isnt the only thing shes good for. If youre not ranking or playing efficiently, theres no reason why couldnt get at least a C with him. And giving her every stat boost in the game wouldnt be necessary since she can make well do with just two.

When you start talking about unranked play, you open up an entire world that is based on arbitration and is open to slippery slope. That is why I talked about actual metrics in the game that are not arbitrary, such as the Funds ranking which is hurt by Isadora, a pre-promoted unit, getting a gold investment higher than you'd EVER spend on anyone else.

Except the Funds ranking fits every single word among the following in this paragraph: Based on arbitration, and open to a slippery slope. Trying to fulfill such a rank prevents the player from making the best with what they have. Even with items that are meant to be sold such as gems. And it's not the only arbitrary ranking on that list either, there is just one other: EXP.

My point is not that these threads don't have insight. My point is these threads are based on metrics that I am not basing the game off of.

Why should that matter? Its not like ranked is the only thing that determines which units are good and which units arent. And again, not many people argue for ranked.

Also, you're walking into a losing battle if you say that ranked runs don't need to promote Priscilla and Serra when you're also promoting the idea of using Isadora and feeding her multiple stat boosts. Priscilla and Serra will contribute, very easily, far more experience from a pool that nobody else can touch until Pent or a caster promotes. Being lower level, they will contribute more raw experience. Once promoted, for 20,000g together, they will gain boosted experience from combat and will actually be a better choice for feeding kills to when possible (Experience & Combat ratings).

Except, realistically, no-ones promoting both Serra and Priscilla. Ignoring that healers gain EXP slowly, by fielding Serra, youre spreading that EXP too thin, and youre down one combat unit. If youre planning on using a healer simply for EXP, its better to put your eggs in one basket, as it were.

Please don't try to tell me that your Isadora that is being fed three items worth more than Priscilla or Serra will spend the entire game is something that people should do, yet promoting the healers is something that you don't have to do. If I don't have to make one of the most sensible decisions in the game when it comes to ranking,

Once again underestimating just how hard it is to get a healer to promotion levels, period.

The unique thing about the units I listed compared to Isadora is that they don't need to be fed random stat boosts to succeed, they are all lower leveled than Isadora, they all come before Isadora, and they all have traits that make them actually attractive to use when you get them.

Which, again, doesnt make Isadora bad. Nor does it mean that they have better combat than her. Lowens combat may be good for the time you get him. But objectively better than Isadoras, it is not. Same goes for Florina, and Fiora. Not to mention, Marcus is the only one of those who actually has access to an A rank weapon by the time she joins.

Eli & Lyn are lords that may be forced in deployment with very good weapons. Who cares if the weapon breaks later on - that's 40/45 uses of a powerful weapon that others cannot use. Furthermore, you're not obligated to promote either of them, so unlike Isadora who needs - yes, needs - stat boosters to be worth using permanently, you can just use Eli for early horse/bandit killing without destroying your Rapier totally, and you could actually use one weapon on Lyn and not spend a single gold for it.

Which doesnt change the fact that Eli and Lyn need more investment in both of them to be effective units than Isadora does.

Canas has access to Dark magic. You can downplay how effective Luna killing is all you want, but the bottom line is that it's a unique tool that favors the use of Canas. While it isn't necessary to promote him, doing so will allow him to destroy late game bosses. Nobody said that the bosses were the only thing on the map - all I'm saying is that downplaying his ability to kill bosses on top of killing strong magic users and anything else on the map just like any other mage would is being disingenuous to why he's a good character and why you don't have to fish very hard to use him.

Im downplaying it because its nothing that cant be done by anything else that you have so late in the game. Its the same reason why earlygame often matter so much more than lategame.Nevermind that Canas magic may not even be high enough for him to even kill bosses with Luna in the first place. Lunas an advantage he has over Isadora, yes. But at best, its a minor one.

You list reasons as to why you wouldn't promote Canas, but something tells me that an E in staff (when you have a minimum of two other strong staff users on the map anyway?) and a lack of Dark Magic (which is false, BTW) are not larger reasons to avoid Canas

You do realize that I was talking about Erk, and not Canas, right? I also forgot to mention that Erk doesnt have a horse, which would let him reach enemies more easily. He also doesn't gain a significant AS boost unlike Canas.

What I'm saying - for the last time on this point - is that Canas offers something throughout the game that nobody else offers, and that + a good class

You mean a class that has the misfortune of wielding a bad weapon type.

and a game mode where Anima dominates

And you talk as if mages are a common enemy type. Last I checked, they arent. And even if they were, like I said earlier, theres more than one way to skin a cat.

Guy &Dorcas don't have special draws to them like the above three. Rather, they are very strong early game and are strong enough to contribute meaningfully to the experience rank later on should you choose to wait.

Neither of them have enough strengths to warrant waiting on them for either to contribute towards the EXP rank, nor do they have enough strengths to warrant any use, period, outside ofearlygame, or even midgame.

Isadora's only unique factor is that she needs, you guessed it, 8,000-16,000g to be used permanently.

Fixed that for you. And, again, its not as big of a deal as youre making it sound. Thats just as how much one would expect to spend when one wants to use Marcus permanently.

As for Nino, she is one of those clearly flawed characters that I listed earlier that I can see being worse than Isadora, because if you actually decide to put resources into Isadora and then feed her kills, chances are you're using her for more than one chapter, unlike Nino who really shouldn't be fielded after that. What you don't understand is that you're given 28 turns to clear Night of Farewells, and even if you finish the map in half that time (which most people do, if not faster). In those 14 turns, Nino can contribute a lot more to the Experience rank than Isadora and be promptly benched the next chapter without taking a single stat booster or a promotion item. This does not mean that Nino is a better unit overall than Isadora, but it does mean that Nino needs nothing but a forced deployment to be worth a ton more than Isadora's forced deployment map.

I brought her up because you were going on how EXP is a wonderful thing to contribute towards, whereas anyone can contribute towards it in some way. Im not denying that Ninos one of its biggest contributors, but at the same time, its nothing to write home about.

If you're doing speed runs of Fire Emblem - which you are because you're finishing every early chapter in 6 turns on average - can you explain to me why you would pick a unit as terrible as Isadora when you could take superior units that have been keeping the pace going and make them even better?

As I keep telling you, using terrible to describe Isadora is oxymoronic. All Im saying that, while using Marcus, Sain, Kent, Florina, Heath, and Fiora to keep the pace going, you can add Isadora to the team to quicken that pace.

If Isadora is not there to Rescue Hector, why do we care if she's mounted again when she gets torn up easily and can't charge deep into the enemy lines to begin with?

Thats just it. Shes not getting torn up easily. Using either a Seraph Robe or a Dracoshield helps ensure that can go on for longer than Chapter 25. As a matter of fact, she comes equipped with a Seraph Robe when she joins. Guess who makes great use of that robe.

Why are we not fielding any of the foot units that are vastly superior to Isadora in combat or utility if the only utility she has isn't being used?

Why are you implying that such a foot unit that isnt named Serra (who has staff utility),Ninils (who has refresher utility and rings), or Raven (whose real combat disadvantage is no WTC until promotion), is joining earlier than Isadora does?

Actually it's nothing like that, because Marcus and Caeda are very clearly good units.

And Isadoras a decent one.Which makes the situation similar.

The other question is why would I want someone who is so gimp that I need to give them stat boosters on my team

Given that were talking about someone who has an A in swords, a B in Lances, a D in Axes, and a horse, its not as gimp as you think. Its because shes on a mount that shes getting a Body Ring and either a robe or a shield in the first place. Youre underestimating just how much of a difference another mounted unit can make to your team.

or give them to units that don't stay inferior with boosts.

Which includes Isadora, who would make better use of said boosts because most other candidates have 5-6 MOV forever.

You can say that Isadora's been proven to be so good long ago all you want (and your proof threads, for the umpteenth time, have nothing to do with ranked play - specifically 8,000-16,000g, which is precisely what I'm discussing)

And again, not everyone considers ranks. Nor is Isadora terrible in ranked play.

When I say terrible, I am saying "Isadora is a unit strictly better than like 15 rabble-rousers

Erk, Lucius, and Canas all have equal offense and better availabilty, but no mount. Dorcas, Guy, and Lyn, all have better availability but no mount and worse offense. Eliwood can get a mount, but can only do so via promotion, and is otherwise in a similar situation to Lyn, Guy, and Dorcas. Dart has higher offense, but worse accuracy and costs more to promote. Rath is bow-locked, initially weaker, and would likely remain weaker than Isadora. Louise joins later and is bow-locked. Geitz and Harken have better offense but worse availability, have no horse, and isnt guaranteed to be recruited. Farina joins later, and isnt guaranteed to be recruited. Legault joins earlier, but has worse offense, costs just as much as Dart to promote, and his biggest contributions arent combat-related. Jaffar has roughly equal offense but worse availability and no mount. Vaida has better offense but worse availability. Athos has better offense but the worst availability in the game. And I dont think I need to explain Nino, Wallace, Wil, Rebecca, Karel, or Karla. That makes roughly 22 units in the game that shes better than.

Saying stuff like "Oh Guy doesn't have a horse" is mad nitpicky coming from someone who said that you shouldn't promote Erk because he only gains an E in Staff.

How is it nitpicky when, like Erk, Guys hardly the best user of his own promotion item? In his case, its his iffy offense for long-term use. Which isnt helped by the fact that he has a 30% Str growth.

Also I find it very bemusing that you don't see a reason Florina could get one Angelic Robe - one of which is in a game mode separate from the main story which you want to pretend won't be played when the threads you linked assume it.

Youre implying that every single FE7 player on this board are actually willing to go through a mode the majority actually hates. Which doesnt work for a multitude of reasons that would take too long to go in deep into.

Also, it's clear we're not even at the same page of this discussion because you're selling Heaven Seals for money now.

Theres a few ways one could get the most out of the Heaven Seals. Promoting either Eliwood or Lyn isnt one of them.Selling them is. Keeping them so I can S-Rank funds is another.

Good grief. Then how about I sell those two stat boosters that you're arguing nobody else could use as well as Isadora for even more money? If nobody else needs them like she does and I don't use her, why not sell them, too??

Her defensive growths are good enough for her to say ahead of enemy offense for a good while. Theres a difference between needing a stat boost and making great use of a stat boost. The only stat boost she needs is to her CON.

Also, the reason I included contributing to the experience rank upon promotion is because units at level 20 don't contribute to experience... so if you promote them... they can contribute to experience. I made that point as obvious as I reasonably could.

You only need roughly ten levels per unit to put the maximum effort into the EXP rank. Surely that should tell you theres some leeway involved.

Besides, if you DO use Isadora in a ranked run for experience, she can only gain like 3-5 levels safely at most because 1) you have other units to use that gain exp faster than her

By the time Isadora joins, enemies should be high-leveled enough so that her prepromoted stats shouldnt affect how her EXP gain is. Not to mention, prepromoted enemies outside of bosses start becoming more and more common.

2) you aren't boosting her in HHM ranked

Maybe. Maybe not. You never know with good funds allocation.

and 3) she's already promoted

Which is never a disadvantage.

and will only die horribly

Which shouldnt be happening. If it is, the players experience with the game might have to be called into question. Specifically, Isadora dying horribly doesnt mean that shes a bad unit. It only means that the player doesnt know how to use her at her fullest potential.

My point here is that if I'm ranking the game and I get to the end of the game and realize I can burn Funds and stay at 5 stars while training Matthew to get a ton of free exp in 32x...

The thing is, though, youre hurting yourself by promoting Matthew. Ignoring that Fell Contracts cost 50k, his attack parameters arent anything to write home about. Literally, his greatest contributions as an Assassin require Killing Edges. Something that most units dont even need to function.

it is worth spending that money instead of on a unit that is not going to be a staple member of your team because you only have a few staples to choose from since the other slots need to be filled by lower leveled units.

A lower-level isnt actually a benefit. In one of those threads I linked to, the OP even listed having a lower-level as a disadvantage that a unit can have, because it means that it takes them a longer time than desired for them to promote.

I'm not saying it is something you should do. I'm explaining to you that things you can reasonably do if you DON'T boost Isadora do not become possible if you take an inferior action.

And Im trying to explain to you that things you can rasonably do if you DO boost Isadora dont become possible if you take an inferior action.

First off that's a lie, if you're going to tell me that Isadora has the same durability late game as anyone on this list to name a few if they take 7 HP / 2 Def:

Hector

Eliwood (promoted)

Lowen

Kent

Sain

Florina

Fiora

Heath

Raven

Harken

Pent

Serra (would have SAME DEF at 20/10 as Isadora and more HP and a lot more Res and Luck)

Priscilla (see above)

then you are making things up.

Isadora has only slightly worse durability as those Ive italicized, and the same durability as those I've bolded, or better durability. (And this is without a Robe or a Shield.) If she takes a Robe or a Shield, those durability disadvantages are minimized, or eliminated in Pents and Florinas case. Also, Lck and Res arent really as important as you think. Mainly because enemies generally rarely either carry killer weapons or are an SM or Berserker in regards to Lck, and the bulk of the enemies dont include mages in regards to Res.

Yeah, supposedly giving someone ONE OR TWO STAT BOOSTS is not a big deal.

Again, its not as big of a deal as youre making it seem.

Oh wow, 13 Strength, how impressive. That's 3 more than a level 5 HHM Raven! Wow, 16 Speed! That's.... uh, one more than a level 5 HHM Raven. Oh she has the same Skill... only two more Defense... less HP!?

Oh right, this is BASE Raven.

Note that I did not deny that Isadora was worse than Raven. But her only real disagvantages compared to him are durability and availability. Im not sure why you act like this makes her terrible, though.

Hey if you want to gloss over all the shortcomings this character has to point out some Speed, can I remind you that this base 16 Speed of hers doesn't exist when you use any real weapon besides an Iron Sword?

Can I remind you that 1, her naturally high AS acts like a buffer for any AS loss against enemies shes killing, and 2, that she would appreciate the 2 AS increase for anything that calls for a Silver Sword or WTA?

This is a terrible rebuttal. Actually, this isn't even a rebuttal, this is a nitpick. Saying that "Oh but at least she has a horse" to try to invalidate the usefulness of promoted casters is flimsy, much like the character you're defending.

And this is coming from the same guy who said I made good points about her earlier. What happened to the mindset that once agreed with me on that? Besides, stuff like Javelins and Hand Axes exist, and Isadora isnt dying to anything that she has WTA over.

I mean really, you wouldn't field trained casters just so you can use Isadora?

Now youre just putting words into my mouth. Nowhere did I say you that shouldnt field casters when Isadora exists. But youre trying to argue that they have a significant advantage over Isadora when such an advantage is either slight at best, and nonexistant at worst.

Casters having range at all times, along with maps with not-so-trivial enemies, means a horse advantage, especially late game, especially on a frail unit like Isadora, is not a gigantic deal when you need units that can ignore counters from most things and have high Res for the rest. It's only two movement, which isn't even flight so it can still be reduced.

And this ignores the fact that a players ability to clear lategame maps benefits greatly from having a team thats nearly full of mounted units. You act like Isadoras durability automatically negates her use as a mounted unit when Ive repeatedly shown how her durability can be fixed through a single use of one of two items.

Given how bad she is at ranged weapons

Which, she isnt. Given how sucky enemies in this game generally are. A units use in an FE game is relative to how the enemies are, after all.

you should also understand that she is only "decent" at attacking from four squares while casters can attack 12 squares, which shores up their lower movement.

With what? Bolting? Or Purge? Theyre both too heavy for their users to reliably double with them, and they have too few uses and too few copies available. Eclipse has poor accuracy and cant kill anything, in addition to having the same problems that Bolting and Purge have. If youre not talking either one of those tome, then I dont know where youre getting the whole casters can attack 12 squares from, since Javelins and Hand Axes do make Isadora a ranged unit. Not a ranged caster, Ill grant you, but a ranged unit nonetheless.

Once again, just because you think having a horse makes a unit worth using does not make it so. Part of what makes a horse useful is Rescuing - which Isadora is trash at because you gave her a Body Ring.

By this logic, Lowen is trash because you promoted him because he supposedly fails at rescuing. Even when theres very few units that can ferry Hector in the first place.

Another part is being able to frontline and charge ahead - which Isadora is trash at because of her low concrete defenses and unimpressive Avo.

Being expected to reach 68 AVO w/WTC is hardly what Id call unimpressive Avo. And again, she has enough concrete durability to stay ahead of the enemies for a good while.

Good thing there's more to the game than lategame, you know, like the two chapters after Isadora joins where she won't get fielded over a Thief, or the later chapters like Battle Before Dawn where a thief not only makes the map easier but is required to grab the Earth Seal from the druid.

You say that like it implies that Isadora wont get fielded on either map at all, when such a thing is entirely possible, and beneficial in some cases.

LOL, you're actually going to sit here and say that people don't go to Linus map (22 turns vs. 11 turns, more arena usage vs. less arena usage, Geitz vs. Wallace) because they have to use Eliwood and Lyn, who get fielded in some maps anyway, exist before Isadora, and have actual maps where at least one of them is strong enough to be used (... every chapter except maybe 17)? This is pure nonsense.

And stuff like this makes me want to take you less and less seriously. You make it sound like using Eliwood or Lyn isnt much of a big deal, when doing so slows your team down. Which is excerberated by anyone whos playing through this game as quickly as possible. Remember one of those threads I linked, yeah, this is another thing the OP also says when going over Geitzs disadvantages.

Oh iffy offense? Let's see, at level 3 he has 5 less Str, 1 MORE skill, and 3 less Speed. Almost the same durability by the way. By level 9, he has the same speed as Isadora and gets this before she even exists.

The Str is the key part here. Specifically, how little of it Guy would have throughout the whole game. His strength means that his offense becomes crit-reliant. A fact that his swordlock does nothing to alliviate. At 14/04, Guy cant even 2RKO Mercenaries in Ch 27 with a Killing Edge if you dont happen to get a crit. Guess whos having a better time facing those Mercenaries. Id rather use someone who can kill stuff 100% of the time, which is someone Guy isnt. And because of his poor offense, Guys not the best candidate for the first Heros Crest, better than Dorcas and Bartre, definitely. But Raven? Heck no.

Sword locked? Who cares, Isadora gets mauled if she uses an Axe and can't go above Iron Lance without getting dumped on. Cool she can toss Javelins and Hand Axes... and drop to base 11 and 10 Speed respectively! How impressive, now she's not even doubling most units at range!

And this ignores that many enemies in this game carry Lances, so the chances of Isadora actually dying to any enemy is very slim if you think about it.

Im not gonna even attack the rest of this because its guilty of nitpicking. A thing youve been accusing me of without any good reason. Not to meniton they ignore the presence of units Isadora can ORKO with no trouble, the presence of lance-using enemies for those worried about giving her an axe, that shes hardly the only one with trouble on Cog of Destiny, and the fact that she can contribute towards Victor or Death and Endgame, period.

Oh by the way, there are people in this very thread that agree Isadora isn't worth using. You may recall that it was you, in fact, that have made statements against two different people otherwise, and a third who repeated what I said about dropping gold on her. Not me.

And yet you yourself said that Isadora is an overrated unit, which means that there are certainly more people who talk highly of her. Based on that fact, which one of us is in the minority, now?

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Sorry. I said I didn't want to derail the thread, and then I derailed the thread. I appreciate not infracting me.

Edited by Brinzy

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