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Topic of Marriage, Supports, and Children.


UnknownUber
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Okay, a little late to the party, but let's dig into it here (and I mean no offense with this; this just me expressing my opinion):

Spoilered for length

1. In Awakening. Awakening =/= Fates. The problem being is the amount of throwbacks to Awakening, but that's a different topic.

2. One of the most popular features that brought in many new fans. That, to me, is a bit disturbing. Fire Emblem is (or at least was) a Strategy RPG, not a dating sim. People who bought the game because of that I don't understand; they've got much better options for games like that. I think most of us here are sick of the "Waifu Emblem" nonsense that's tossed around. Yes, this may sound like I'm hating on those who enjoy it, but to reiterate: Fire Emblem is an SRPG. The "Dating Sim" elements are written and executed very poorly, and people who are interested in those types of games are much better off looking elsewhere; if that's someones prime source of enjoyment from the series they're better off looking elsewhere.

3. If there hadn't been that many fans, Fates wouldn't even exist. Let me clear things up, here: the series was not in as much danger as most think. The borderline commercial failure of the Tellius games did put a good dent in it. Shadow Dragon and New Mystery of the Emblem each sold about 250,000 (and the latter was Japan only). Actually, if you take a look at the series GBA onwards, that's a respectable amount. Nintendo told IS to exceed 250,000 most likely so they could make up for PoR/RD. And I think if Awakening hadn't been quite as successful, then Fates would have been one game with maybe a solid story, instead of multiple versions with lackluster stories.

Anyway, as for how supports should be handled, I really think 6-10 is the sweetspot, with an even mixture of platonic and romantic options. For romantic options, (as someone who I'm to lazy to remember the username of suggested) A supports should end with the pair starting a relationship. I think that S should be the pair deciding they will get married, and not doing so until the postgame.

I was just stating my opinion. You don't have to agree with everything I say. I certainly know that Fire Emblem is and RPG; if I wanted to play a game with dating elements I would play an otome game. And YES, to tell you the truth, it certainly does seem that you are hating on those who do enjoy those aspects of the game.

And as regards Fire Emblem Awakening, yes it WAS almost the last game in the series HAD IT NOT sold as well as it did. This interview proves my point: http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/fire-emblem-fates/0/3

I have nothing else to say on the matter.

Edited by amaicherii
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I don't know if anyone's seen this one yet, but I found it through tumblr:

Asama / F!Kamui C-S

http://pastebin.com/jLk1CV1X

Again, just a random find. I have no idea whose it might be.

That was actually pretty sweet. Asama is so chill. And is it just me, or was the flow from A - S less... clunky than usual?

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I don't know if anyone's seen this one yet, but I found it through tumblr:

Asama / F!Kamui C-S

http://pastebin.com/jLk1CV1X

Again, just a random find. I have no idea whose it might be.

That was actually pretty sweet. Asama is so chill. And is it just me, or was the flow from A - S less... clunky than usual?

I've seen it! :D

I must say I didn't expect that at all and it was a great support!! I loved it!! <3

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If requests are still being accepted, I'd like to request Zero x Belka at some point.

All of Zero's supports have been gold so far, and I kinda want to see what he's like with another shady type like her.

Speaking of which: Here's Zero x Elise. He likes making her cry and telling her she has a sexy body. And turns her M. What is this I don't even... 0_o'

Edited by eharper256
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Speaking of which: Here's Zero x Elise. He likes making her cry and telling her she has a sexy body. And turns her M. What is this I don't even... 0_o'

I expected that to be worse than it was from your description, but I'm still noping pretty hard. No way am I ever pairing them up.

Edited by capmalachi
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I was just stating my opinion. You don't have to agree with everything I say. I certainly know that Fire Emblem is and RPG; if I wanted to play a game with dating elements I would play an otome game. And YES, to tell you the truth, it certainly does seem that you are hating on those who do enjoy those aspects of the game.

And as regards Fire Emblem Awakening, yes it WAS almost the last game in the series HAD IT NOT sold as well as it did. This interview proves my point: http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/fire-emblem-fates/0/3

I have nothing else to say on the matter.

As I said, those whose primary source of enjoyment in Awakening comes from the "shipping" aspect are much better off playing something more catered to their tastes. It's as much as "Why do people like this so much? There are much better alternatives for them" as me bemoaning the series direction and resources being pumped into it rather than the core SRPG gameplay. The aspect they enjoy is very poorly written and executed. I don't hate them; I'm just a little dumbfounded on why they find FE appealing in that regard when there's, say, Persona (which does a much better job of it). As I said, these are just my opinions.

Alternatively, the people who do like it so much are just a vocal minority that IS decided to embrace due to how easily appeased they seem to be.

To repeat myself: I'm not hating on them; I'm confused by them (if "shipping" is their #1 enjoyable aspect of FE).

Yes, I knew that. The sales Awakening needed to surpass: 250,000. About the average for series sales. The previous two games sold about as much. When looking at the Radiant Duelogy (which sold sub 200,000, and were console games to boot), it seems likely that it was just Nintendo's way of motivating IS to make some profit to help make up for those lackluster sales. What is more surprising is IS's apparent lack of self-faith. Everything Awakening did always gets the defense "It saved the series!" when, really, it wasn't in too much danger in the first place.

But anyway, supports.

Elise/Suzukaze: That was cute. Still don't like pairing of Elise with anybody.

Elise/Zero: I'm on the Nope Train with the rest of you.

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I have to agree that "The DanMan" has a point about the shipping aspect of FE being done better in other series or genres.

I'm suspecting that part of the issue is perhaps a lack of mainstream awareness of these other series or genres that might handle the shipping in a manner that might satisfy shipping fans more.

I mean, Fire Emblem isn't necessarily fully main-stream itself yet (although its grown much larger than its original niche), but its from a highly familiar company (Nintendo & Intelligent Systems, with Nintendo giving familiarity) that there are probably a lot more people who are aware of it than say, obscure visual novels, outright dating sims, etc.

So I suspect that they flock to Fire Emblem because its something that they're actually aware of that satisfies their shipping desires.

I myself, I admit, enjoy doing shipping in Awakening and look forward to doing so in Fates, but it was never my #1 reason for playing the games; my #1 reason is that I like strategy genres (RTS, turn-based strategy, strategy RPG) and decided to give the series a try; Awakening was the most accessible entry for me to do so when I decided to try it out, in the sense that I had a 3DS already and Awakening was still widely available in retail circulation.

The shipping stuff that I happen to also like is just a bonus alongside the strategy stuff that I actually play the game for. Its not the best quality shipping stuff, but I'm not playing primarily for the shipping stuff either, so that's okay with me.

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If requests are still being accepted, I'd like to request Zero x Belka at some point.

All of Zero's supports have been gold so far, and I kinda want to see what he's like with another shady type like her.

Speaking of which: Here's Zero x Elise. He likes making her cry and telling her she has a sexy body. And turns her M. What is this I don't even... 0_o'

Localization is gonna have a field day with this one. There are other supports that are probably gonna have to change, but pedophilia is just like knee jerk no territory, and really this support seems like it. SINCE THEY CAN MARRY. IS do you just make some of these lines and supports to make life difficult for the translators?

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People, stop using the word pedophile. With Elise the correct term would probably be hebophile (referring to preteens-early pubescents).

Then there's Ephebophile for teenagers. Which depending on Elise's age may actually be more accurate (I doubt she's only 12. around maybe 14 seems more accurate, which is around the border of the 2 terms). Not to mention most of people we could ship her with are probably below the legal drinking age themselves, so a lot of it can come down to cultural values as opposed to anything else.

And if it makes you feel better, most of Elise's supports do have to do with the 2 being in love legitimately as opposed to some sort of fetish on the part of the older party, so it really can be boiled down to cultural differences on the age of consent and reasonable age difference (I believe in our culture it's vaguely that the acceptable range is between .5n+7 and 2(n-7) inclusive. which, if Elise would be 14, would actually only put other 14 year olds as acceptable partners. Huh. Guess it's not a perfect system.)

Edited by MajorMajora
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Speaking of which: Here's Zero x Elise. He likes making her cry and telling her she has a sexy body. And turns her M. What is this I don't even... 0_o'

Honestly, I think the reason it's nope (even for me, and I'm not super-nope about it) is that she's so young, or at least acts that way. If she were written to be even a hair less naive about his intentions, I'd be totally fine. It's the implication that she has no idea what she's getting herself into that bugs me. She's a bright girl, and given a few of her amie lines and a culteral barrier, I think if she were real she wouldn't actually be that clueless, and is probably pretending, which is why I'm not super irked by it.

Edited by Glorie
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As I said, those whose primary source of enjoyment in Awakening comes from the "shipping" aspect are much better off playing something more catered to their tastes. It's as much as "Why do people like this so much? There are much better alternatives for them" as me bemoaning the series direction and resources being pumped into it rather than the core SRPG gameplay. The aspect they enjoy is very poorly written and executed. I don't hate them; I'm just a little dumbfounded on why they find FE appealing in that regard when there's, say, Persona (which does a much better job of it). As I said, these are just my opinions.

Alternatively, the people who do like it so much are just a vocal minority that IS decided to embrace due to how easily appeased they seem to be.

To repeat myself: I'm not hating on them; I'm confused by them (if "shipping" is their #1 enjoyable aspect of FE).

Yes, I knew that. The sales Awakening needed to surpass: 250,000. About the average for series sales. The previous two games sold about as much. When looking at the Radiant Duelogy (which sold sub 200,000, and were console games to boot), it seems likely that it was just Nintendo's way of motivating IS to make some profit to help make up for those lackluster sales. What is more surprising is IS's apparent lack of self-faith. Everything Awakening did always gets the defense "It saved the series!" when, really, it wasn't in too much danger in the first place.

Hatano-san27, who was working as the head of the sales department, he said "The Emblem series isn't making the numbers, so this is going to be the last one." And the members said "This is going to be the last one, so let's put in everything we want so we don't have any regrets.

Why else would the head of Nintendo sales department tell the development team of Intelligent Systems this?

My personal theory for why Intelligent Systems specified 250,000 copies is because that was the benchmark to make sure they don't lose money from making Awakening. Everything else is to make sure they comfortably profit. Nintendo Sales Department wants to see a lot of profit and not satisfying the bare minimum.

Edited by IceBuster573
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As I said, those whose primary source of enjoyment in Awakening comes from the "shipping" aspect are much better off playing something more catered to their tastes. It's as much as "Why do people like this so much? There are much better alternatives for them" as me bemoaning the series direction and resources being pumped into it rather than the core SRPG gameplay. The aspect they enjoy is very poorly written and executed. I don't hate them; I'm just a little dumbfounded on why they find FE appealing in that regard when there's, say, Persona (which does a much better job of it). As I said, these are just my opinions.

Alternatively, the people who do like it so much are just a vocal minority that IS decided to embrace due to how easily appeased they seem to be.

To repeat myself: I'm not hating on them; I'm confused by them (if "shipping" is their #1 enjoyable aspect of FE).

To be honest, I was really, really trying to stay out of this discussion. I'm a very non-confrontational person, so I try to avoid sticky debates like this subject. However, as someone who un-ironically loves the "shipping" aspect of FE, I thought I should, at the very least, try to explain why I like "shipping" in the FE games.

[spoiler=Sorry, this gets kinda ramble-y]I honestly love romance aspects in games. It's something I enjoy, especially if there's a self-insert character like the MU. If I know that a game has romance in it, then I'm more likely to buy it.

But if romance is the only thing I like going for a game, then I'll drop it immediately. This happened with me and Mass Effect; I really like the characters in that series (and wanted my Shepherd to romance Garrus. I still want this) but I absolutely hate shooters. I tried playing ME2 for the story and RPG aspects; didn't work. I just couldn't get past how much of a shooter the game is, even on the lowest difficulty. So, I dropped the game because I didn't like the core mechanics, even though I wanted to play for the side mechanics.

As for other games doing romance better than FE, I know. I've played Persona, both 3 and 4, so I know that those games do "shipping" a heck of a lot better than FE. However, they also have an additional 6 conversations to build things up, which they can get away with because those games are really, really long. I haven't re-played the games to completion even once because of their length. I've done similar things in the Dragon Age games because I'm a completionist, getting the side content I want and then kinda forgetting about that playthrough. FE, though... I've played all of the localized games at least 3 times. They're easier games to try things out in because they don't take 80+ hours to finish.

But I digress. FE is a series I love for the the core gameplay. The fact that romance is an option just makes me like it even more. But I wouldn't even touch a game where the main objective is the romance/"shipping". I don't want to play a game where the end goal is to get in another character's pants; I want to play a game where I'm saving the world, ending a war, or going on an adventure. If there's the option for romance along the way, then I'll like it even better.

tl;dr "Shipping" is a bonus for me, not the selling point.

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To be honest, I was really, really trying to stay out of this discussion. I'm a very non-confrontational person, so I try to avoid sticky debates like this subject. However, as someone who un-ironically loves the "shipping" aspect of FE, I thought I should, at the very least, try to explain why I like "shipping" in the FE games.

[spoiler=Sorry, this gets kinda ramble-y]I honestly love romance aspects in games. It's something I enjoy, especially if there's a self-insert character like the MU. If I know that a game has romance in it, then I'm more likely to buy it.

But if romance is the only thing I like going for a game, then I'll drop it immediately. This happened with me and Mass Effect; I really like the characters in that series (and wanted my Shepherd to romance Garrus. I still want this) but I absolutely hate shooters. I tried playing ME2 for the story and RPG aspects; didn't work. I just couldn't get past how much of a shooter the game is, even on the lowest difficulty. So, I dropped the game because I didn't like the core mechanics, even though I wanted to play for the side mechanics.

As for other games doing romance better than FE, I know. I've played Persona, both 3 and 4, so I know that those games do "shipping" a heck of a lot better than FE. However, they also have an additional 6 conversations to build things up, which they can get away with because those games are really, really long. I haven't re-played the games to completion even once because of their length. I've done similar things in the Dragon Age games because I'm a completionist, getting the side content I want and then kinda forgetting about that playthrough. FE, though... I've played all of the localized games at least 3 times. They're easier games to try things out in because they don't take 80+ hours to finish.

But I digress. FE is a series I love for the the core gameplay. The fact that romance is an option just makes me like it even more. But I wouldn't even touch a game where the main objective is the romance/"shipping". I don't want to play a game where the end goal is to get in another character's pants; I want to play a game where I'm saving the world, ending a war, or going on an adventure. If there's the option for romance along the way, then I'll like it even better.

tl;dr "Shipping" is a bonus for me, not the selling point.

Thank you so much for sharing your opinion. In my case, I do like games which are purely romantic, but they usually have a very different type of gameplay which only involves making choices due to being visual novels.

I completely agree with you about wanting to play games which involve some kind of adventure (these kind of games are the ones I enjoy the most, specially when involving mysteries) and "shipping" is also a bonus for me and not the selling point. I too wouldn't buy a game with romance aspects if I didn't like the game mechanics. As I said in a previous post, if I wanted a purely romantic game I'd play an otome.

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Why else would the head of Nintendo sales department tell the development team of Intelligent Systems this?

My personal theory for why Intelligent Systems specified 250,000 copies is because that was the benchmark to make sure they don't lose money from making Awakening. Everything else is to make sure they comfortably profit. Nintendo Sales Department wants to see a lot of profit and not satisfying the bare minimum.

How direct is that quote? And as for your theory about the sales numbers, doesn't that contradict the facts? How many headlines were there saying "Awakening would have been the last in the series if it hadn't had sold 250,000"?

The previous two games were the Akaneia remakes which probably sold on nostalgia, but the utter lack of faith in the series is surprising at first. But that's a whole different topic.

tl;dr "Shipping" is a bonus for me, not the selling point.

Exactly; it's a small part of the experience. What started this was amaicherii saying that that aspect alone brought a bunch of fans to the series, which I, on its own, find dumbfounding and questionable; did that many tumblrinas buy the game? If she meant to say something else or I just misread it, then okay.

I'm sorry for this semi-derailment of the topic; I'd like to bring this back to supports, and not focus on a debate concerning the popularity of shipping and sales numbers.

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Exactly; it's a small part of the experience. What started this was amaicherii saying that that aspect alone brought a bunch of fans to the series, which I, on its own, find dumbfounding and questionable; did that many tumblrinas buy the game? If she meant to say something else or I just misread it, then okay.

I'm sorry for this semi-derailment of the topic; I'd like to bring this back to supports, and not focus on a debate concerning the popularity of shipping and sales numbers.

That wasn't what I meant at all. What I meant is that it helped bringing more fans but it wasn't the only aspect, of course. In my case, what brought me to fire emblem was the story and then I discovered the game mechanics and loved it even more cause' I love RPGs. Whatever, let's stop talking about this. We have different points of view. End of discussion.

Does anyone know if there are more Hisame supports translated?

Edited by amaicherii
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Coherent contribution??? Potentially. i'm so bad with opinion sharing why am i doing this to myself my heart beats fast

I think there's definitely a place for large amounts of romance and shipping in games. I play+help friends make a lot of otoge, they can be great fun! Unfortunately for FE, this series is not the place to shove that aspect to the front. Not to say I dislike the support system in its entirety, I do like it! I take my FE marriages seriously as everyone knows! It has its positives and negatives (as for Fates, unfortunately mostly negatives since they hecked it up with unnecessary and pretty disgusting supports) but I feel like they should try and tone it down.

It's true that it's helping them sell more, so I understand why they do it. Gotta keep the series going and make money and all. Personally, I'd be happier if it wasn't taken as The USP by so many people, but with the majority of otoge being less popular than FE, I can see why they're pushing for that audience too. However, when they're pushing it so far that the romance options are forced at the last second to contradict the very basis of the plot just so you can marry the Hot Ones, they HAVE to tone it down. I know they won't restrict many options for the MU, which is understandable but with a plot like Fates they should have made the pseudo-family units off-limits IMHO.

They've gotta start restricting romance options that don't make sense, giving us more gay/bi options (should the law allow it, I'm not sure how it's being handled in Japan, I'd like to hear more about this), making supports that don't lead directly to Suddenly, Marriage...there's a lot they could fix, but I don't think it's practical for their sales or even necessary to remove it or restrict it too far.

As another point, forcing child units to be recuitable may have worked in Awakening, but I don't think it truly has a place in Fates. I love a lot of the child units so it really hurts me to say that, but it's true that while the characters are sometimes excellent, it just didn't make sense like it did in Awakening. It was a real push.

As much as I enjoyed the game (mostly for the story+characters), Fates' support system and the weird as hell extra stuff (MyRoom, onsen) is not what I want in the future. I'll be upset if they pull the same thing again.

Side note, I absolutely don't envy the localisation team for this game. I know I've had to paraphrase stuff in translation to make it sound slightly less lewd than it would be put straight into English (eyes Zero) but there's so much in this game that just doesn't work over here in general, I really wonder how they'll deal with it.

Edit: Finished writing this after the discussion had come to a close uh oh damn my late ass. Don't respond and drag this on since people would rather have it ended

Which Hisame supports have you seen around so far?

Edited by fletch
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To be honest, I was really, really trying to stay out of this discussion. I'm a very non-confrontational person, so I try to avoid sticky debates like this subject. However, as someone who un-ironically loves the "shipping" aspect of FE, I thought I should, at the very least, try to explain why I like "shipping" in the FE games.

[spoiler=Sorry, this gets kinda ramble-y]I honestly love romance aspects in games. It's something I enjoy, especially if there's a self-insert character like the MU. If I know that a game has romance in it, then I'm more likely to buy it.

But if romance is the only thing I like going for a game, then I'll drop it immediately. This happened with me and Mass Effect; I really like the characters in that series (and wanted my Shepherd to romance Garrus. I still want this) but I absolutely hate shooters. I tried playing ME2 for the story and RPG aspects; didn't work. I just couldn't get past how much of a shooter the game is, even on the lowest difficulty. So, I dropped the game because I didn't like the core mechanics, even though I wanted to play for the side mechanics.

As for other games doing romance better than FE, I know. I've played Persona, both 3 and 4, so I know that those games do "shipping" a heck of a lot better than FE. However, they also have an additional 6 conversations to build things up, which they can get away with because those games are really, really long. I haven't re-played the games to completion even once because of their length. I've done similar things in the Dragon Age games because I'm a completionist, getting the side content I want and then kinda forgetting about that playthrough. FE, though... I've played all of the localized games at least 3 times. They're easier games to try things out in because they don't take 80+ hours to finish.

But I digress. FE is a series I love for the the core gameplay. The fact that romance is an option just makes me like it even more. But I wouldn't even touch a game where the main objective is the romance/"shipping". I don't want to play a game where the end goal is to get in another character's pants; I want to play a game where I'm saving the world, ending a war, or going on an adventure. If there's the option for romance along the way, then I'll like it even better.

tl;dr "Shipping" is a bonus for me, not the selling point.

Thank you so much for sharing your opinion. In my case, I do like games which are purely romantic, but they usually have a very different type of gameplay which only involves making choices due to being visual novels.

I completely agree with you about wanting to play games which involve some kind of adventure (these kind of games are the ones I enjoy the most, specially when involving mysteries) and "shipping" is also a bonus for me and not the selling point. I too wouldn't buy a game with romance aspects if I didn't like the game mechanics. As I said in a previous post, if I wanted a purely romantic game I'd play an otome.

I was avoiding getting into this, but... I feel that I have to say something after this has been said...

I come for the gameplay. I stay for the plot. I linger for the characters and the romance. That is how I've been playing games for ages, and that's really not about to change now. I am a self-admitted fangirl, I adore romance of all sorts, and I've been writing fanfiction for well over eight years now, but I never got into the Fire Emblem series solely for the romance. It was the combination of the war/saving the world, fostering all sorts of bonds in turbulent times, and that old cliche of "finding glimpses of light in the darkness" that made me invest myself hard into this series. I would never call shipping a staple of Fire Emblem, but I will say that the addition of it was a definite draw for me considering my nature.

I want a game where I care about what the cast is doing, the plot keeps me tethered in their reality, and the world interests me. Of course, I usually want romance in my game, but if I can't find it in canon, I'll write it, and that's the perks of being an author. So, I was delighted when I first played Fire Emblem (Sacred Stones was my introduction to the series) and realized, "This is a game where I'm kicking ass and taking names for this ruined kingdom, and I get to play matchmaker with my comrades?! YES, PLEASE." I have never regretted a single thing about picking up that game out of sheer curiosity, and FE is probably one of my favourite fandoms I have ever been involved in because it satisfies all of my wants and gives me so much to work off of both as a fan and an author.

Now, whether or not we're leaning too far in one direction is a different argument, and whether or not it is done well is also another. I will be the first to admit though that any opinion I'd give would be far less than objective. I like to ship, and even if the supports are done poorly, that's what fanfiction is for, and I'm more than willing to do rewrites and supplemental headcanons to improve a relationship or patch over one or two plotholes that a support may have left open. It's more fun to me that way, and I've been doing it for so long that it's pretty much how I play a game now without even consciously thinking about it. I have been ruined by my years of fanfiction... but as long as Fire Emblem continues to give me games that tickle my fancy with plot, characters, world and romance, I think I'll remain as content as I can be.

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Last comment I'm making on sales numbers, but yes that quote is taken exactly how it is from the Iwata Asks interview. My theory is very shaky, but that's because it's an attempt to figure out how the previous information about not making 250,000 sales fits with the Iwata Asks interview.

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Pardon, have any other Saizou or Kaze supports been translated?

I don't know if this is new, but I just saw that the Saizou/Oboro support was translated.

"Saizou: You bitch! Why are you trying to take my clothes off! S-stop! Hey! Don’t take everything off!"

Because who needs context? XD

Edited by Grimalkenkid
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Pardon, have any other Saizou or Kaze supports been translated?

The most recent I've seen is Saizou/Oboro but dunno if you already saw it ;w;

And woah there are more Kaze supports since the last time I checked (sorry, I don't know which one is new) but maybe you already read them. These ones:

Kaze/Rinka

Kaze/Oboro

Kaze/Mozume

Kaze/Midoriko

Kaze/Kagerou

Kaze/Felicia

EDIT: Sorry fletch, just saw your comment about the Hisame supports. The only ones I've seen are the ones with Kisaragi, Midoriko and Shigure. I'd love to see the ones with F!Kamui and Hinata ;w;

Edited by amaicherii
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