Topic of Marriage, Supports, and Children.

[nordopolica]

Its clear from the get-go that there are way too many S-supports in Fates with most feeling rushed thanks to things like the child mechanic which I still feel was completely unnecessary for Fates. In addition there is a butt load of pandering with characters getting turned into romance options when really then they shouldn't be among these being the child characters and your siblings on both sides.

I don't care if they are not really your blood turning them into more love interests screwed with the really awesome idea presented by Fates in the beginning

Then there are the complaints of not enough husbandos and waifus or not enough bi options or not enough gay options or something that doesn't cater to a person's preference or some fetish which comes back to my other mentioned issues of trying to please everyone it become less about telling a good story with good characters and becomes more about "Oh look how cute this pairing is!" or "My little waifu is so moe I want to pet her and squeeze here and call her Debby!" or "Man why can't I see these two together *pouts*".

I feel that its crap like this that takes away from possible meaningful and deep connections with characters which is why I agree with those that say that there should be a limited number of romantic supports and possibly changes in the system that makes the growing bond more natural. Hell throw in some platonic relationships as well but in general make the supports have both weight and heart.

Yeah the

sibling thing will never stop irking me. They had an opportunity to make a family-oriented, emotionally charged storyline and threw it away for more waifu options. I don't care that they're not you're blood siblings, it's still weird and disappointing, tbh, especially with how most of the Hoshido side's S supports were handled.

And the fact that most paired endings

are so shallow that they are literally just two half-endings pasted together with little to no personalisation. At least Awakening had endings that seemed fluid with the pairing and CHANGED at least a little.

I don't know if I'm more disappointed by the way supports were handled all the state of paired endings.

[Aquakat]

Um... sorry to switch the current subject... but has anyone found Sakura's supports with Saizou and Kaze?

[Thor Odinson]

Unfortunately none that I could find through a google. I think Sakura x Saizou is on feifsupport (tumblr)'s request list, but that list is also absolutely massive

[amaicherii]

I checked on the pastebin compilation but it seems they haven't been translated yet >__<

Well, as regards the marriage stuff and all that, people will always have different opinions. Everyone won't always agree with everything. But I think feedback and reviews are good ways to voice your opinions on games so that the game developers can see them and analyze the possibilities for the next one to be even better.

Edited July 17, 2015 by amaicherii

[Aquakat]

Darn, okay. I've just heard cute things for Sakura-Saizou's supports, and I think the C support for Kaze-Sakura is translated here in the OP?

[IceBuster573]

Yeah the

sibling thing will never stop irking me. They had an opportunity to make a family-oriented, emotionally charged storyline and threw it away for more waifu options. I don't care that they're not you're blood siblings, it's still weird and disappointing, tbh, especially with how most of the Hoshido side's S supports were handled.

And the fact that most paired endings

are so shallow that they are literally just two half-endings pasted together with little to no personalisation. At least Awakening had endings that seemed fluid with the pairing and CHANGED at least a little.

I don't know if I'm more disappointed by the way supports were handled all the state of paired endings.

Huh...do you think that's something localization would take notice of?

[Yari]

Huh...do you think that's something localization would take notice of?

Honestly? I don't think so. They'll probably keep it the same way but we can always hope.

[capmalachi]

I vanished from translation like three days or something, oops...

Anyway, Shinonome+Sophie C-S http://pastebin.com/w7LZpv6R

That was pretty cute actually. I still prefer Matoi but I could happily run this pairing on playthroughs where Matoi is his cousin.

I had to laugh a bit at her second to last line, about the prince on a white horse. "…No, I'm the one who gets on a horse. But Abel isn't white, so… "

[Robird]

The one thing I don't understand is why IS feels the need to make every character able to support every character of the opposite sex. Sure, it allows for more customization of pairings for each playthrough, but in a lot of cases, these characters have nothing in common or have no reason whatsoever to interact, and because of that, a lot of these characters' defining traits get milked way more than they should. Take Felicia, for example. Being a clumsy maid is cute and all, but it starts to get annoying when it's the main topic of almost all (over 20!) of her conversations. I can see why Kamui would be able to support with everyone, but not so much for the rest of the cast.

IS really should just have limited supports between opposite sexes to around four to six or something, only having characters with similarties or history together being able to support with one another (Kagerou only being able to support with Suzukaze, Kamui, Saizou and Ryouma for example, pretty much no one is planning to pair her up with Tsukuyomi or something from what I've seen so far). I'd rather have a smaller amount of well-written and interesting conversations than a crapload of rushed conversations that all revolve around the exact same topic.

Also, less incest in the localization would be appreciated, heheh. Making Mikoto and Shinmei childhood friends / very distantly related instead of being siblings would be a good start.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Ghost Fart

[Iron Griffin]

^ I agree.

I feel maybe about 5 possible romantic supports and perhaps 5 for buddy/platonic connections would be a good number. As you mention context is important a history or familiarity between the characters serves a good foundation. There would be a less need to butt rush the writing.

Honestly I would even extend this to the main characters as well in future games this whole self-insert/blank slate thing does more harm than good I think that IS should focus on creating well-rounded characters instead of this Waifuing system. Doing this would allow the players to connect and have a better understanding of such characters. Look at some of the supports for Kamui a lot of them feeling like they are playing it safe and don't have that spark that other match ups have because IS didn't give him/her that much of an identity.

If I was going into anti-shipping goggles mode when putting Kamui's supports together with the mind set he/she is his/her own character it would look a little something like this...

So lets say its one game two branching paths instead of three for example. And lets say Kamui is actually a 3 dimensional character.

Lets use Male Kamui in this example his main supports would be mostly his siblings since Family was originally the main idea with Fates so in one path it would be the Hoshido siblings and in the other Nohr so that is 4 supports already.

Now lets give him a few other like for Romantic one would obviously be Aqua(The game is quite vocal about this anyways), Felicia, and then two more depending on the route taking perhaps them being a man and a woman who are the Bi/Gay options. Then for others You could have Cyrus/Silas and Gunther. Right there you have 10 supports that you can give plenty attention to.

And for Female Kamui you don't have to flip it over but could possibly give her a bit of a different roster if it adds replay value.

This only and idea if I wanted something more concrete I would have spent a lot more time on it :P.

Making Mikoto and Shinmei childhood friends / very distantly related instead of being siblings would be a good start.
^^^^^
Yeah that is going to be fun.

[Yari]

I wouldn't mind if marriage didn't change. I would like more platonic supports too but if marriage stays the same for the next games I wouldn't mind it at all. They can take away the player avatar they can take away the 2 gen just want to enjoy the game and be able to make weird crack pairings cannon in my playthroughs. I might be alone in this but whatever. And more same-gender marriages should be a thing in the next games.

[astrophys]

I'm honestly fine either way with Avatar x character marriage, as well as character x character marriage existing, but I was also perfectly content in games like The Sacred Stones where there was no Avatar and marriage was reserved for the epilogues (and even then, not between all male-female pairs either).

Now, that said, given that it exists in Awakening and Fates, I am going to make use of the marriage/"waifu" system, including marrying my Avatar to the characters whom I prefer (such as Cordelia & Matoi).

The "waifu" system, for me, is not something I think "this must be there or else I won't buy the game!" I honestly don't care if it gets included or not. I will certainly "waifu" characters in games where such a system exists, but if it doesn't exist, then that's perfectly okay too.

FE8 (my 2nd FE) didn't have that. Genealogy has marriage, but not involving a player Avatar. Final Fantasy Tactics, FF Tactics Advance, and FF Tactics A2 didn't have a "waifu" system. Neither did Disgaea… I've played more SRPGs without such a system than ones that I have with one… And for strategy games, none of the Advance Wars had such options either… I enjoyed them perfectly all. Or RTS games (different genre, but still strategy)…. I love those things too.

Honestly, I'd be perfectly fine with things if they moved back to a system with no Avatar, a Lord is a defined character in their own right (like Sigurd, Ephraim, Eirika, etc.), and had a more restrictive list of support options.

But if they choose to keep "waifu" elements, I'd be fine with that too… although I do wish there was a bit more support variety.

[RPGatWill]

This would be very difficult to do, but my wish for supports is actually this:

I can't see them getting rid of the Avatar system. Admittedly this is mainly because I love the concept myself, as I've always been a fan of it ever since the Tactician from Fire Emblem 7. Awakening was essentially a realization of this (Also the FE 12 we never saw, sadly, which I personally think did it a little better than Awakening). However, I hope they step away from the overly naive character to some extent. But how could they do this?

Add in some choice. The choice doesn't even necessarily have to majorly affect the outcome. Some of my favorite scenes in Awakening are where you as the player have a choice. Sure, events unfold the same either way, but do you make the harder choice to save more lives, or refuse it? It felt like it gave your avatar more personality, even when events played out the same.

I would improve this. Not only put choices in the main game, but also in the support conversations. If you have even one choice per conversation (3 for a C-A rank) you can feel a much more personal experience. Secondly, it's not impossible to assign relationship points to choices. Depending on how your character *clicks* with another (Cause say like, you're trying to romance a very militant person. If you make all the choices that are 'bashing' or 'against' military, he's not as likely to like you, right?) you can unlock an S rank between the Avatar and that character.

The potential problem with this would be people complaining that they have to make certain choices to make characters like them, but to be fair that's like real life. If you keep telling the military their wrong, they don't magically come around to your way of thinking, they just stop liking you. That way you could have different feeling A supports. Rivals, friends, confidants, while perhaps giving a better way to connect to the S supports when characters work better together.

Again, I know it's not likely to happen and a long shot by far, but that's what I think would help.

[Xeniferos]

I'm honestly fine either way with Avatar x character marriage, as well as character x character marriage existing, but I was also perfectly content in games like The Sacred Stones where there was no Avatar and marriage was reserved for the epilogues (and even then, not between all male-female pairs either).

Now, that said, given that it exists in Awakening and Fates, I am going to make use of the marriage/"waifu" system, including marrying my Avatar to the characters whom I prefer (such as Cordelia & Matoi).

The "waifu" system, for me, is not something I think "this must be there or else I won't buy the game!" I honestly don't care if it gets included or not. I will certainly "waifu" characters in games where such a system exists, but if it doesn't exist, then that's perfectly okay too.

FE8 (my 2nd FE) didn't have that. Genealogy has marriage, but not involving a player Avatar. Final Fantasy Tactics, FF Tactics Advance, and FF Tactics A2 didn't have a "waifu" system. Neither did Disgaea… I've played more SRPGs without such a system than ones that I have with one… And for strategy games, none of the Advance Wars had such options either… I enjoyed them perfectly all. Or RTS games (different genre, but still strategy)…. I love those things too.

Honestly, I'd be perfectly fine with things if they moved back to a system with no Avatar, a Lord is a defined character in their own right (like Sigurd, Ephraim, Eirika, etc.), and had a more restrictive list of support options.

But if they choose to keep "waifu" elements, I'd be fine with that too… although I do wish there was a bit more support variety.

I think this about sums up how I feel about the supports.

They're a nice touch, though I will agree that some characters just rehash the same thing over and over (Ala Lon'qu in Awakening, among a few others). Some variety or characters having a bit more backstory together wouldn't hurt at all, as it was mentioned before.

However, I'm content with having the variety and choices versus not having them at all.

I'll take the watered down supports in the name of pairing variety (children classes, frivolous things like child hair color, spouse combos, etc.) for gameplay purposes, though.

Can't have it all.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Xeniferos

[Landmaster]

I actually much prefer it this way than Chrom and Sumia's limited supports, if only because I like the options. Hair color and classes is, of course part of it, I'd be lying if I said it wasn't, but also because it always upset me after my first blind Awakening playthrough when I not only got Maiden!Lucina, but also missed Cynthia completely simply because they were so limited with supports and the timeliness of it (in Olivia's case).

So it may not make for the best supports for everyone (I don't expect all these characters to have amazing/unique supports with every character they can support with when there's so many) but it at least gives us more options. Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand the notion that some characters have no reason to support with others. They're all on the same squad and it stands to reason, at least to me, that they could all potentially support each other. I always was confused that Sumia could support with Gaius and Henry, but not some of the original Shepherds. But that's just me~

[Gomez_Addams]

I actually much prefer it this way than Chrom and Sumia's limited supports, if only because I like the options. Hair color and classes is, of course part of it, I'd be lying if I said it wasn't, but also because it always upset me after my first blind Awakening playthrough when I not only got Maiden!Lucina, but also missed Cynthia completely simply because they were so limited with supports and the timeliness of it (in Olivia's case).

So it may not make for the best supports for everyone (I don't expect all these characters to have amazing/unique supports with every character they can support with when there's so many) but it at least gives us more options. Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand the notion that some characters have no reason to support with others. They're all on the same squad and it stands to reason, at least to me, that they could all potentially support each other. I always was confused that Sumia could support with Gaius and Henry, but not some of the original Shepherds. But that's just me~

I agree. The more options, the better.

People seem to forget that even in the games with limited support options, it isn't like all the supports were well-written.

[Iron Griffin]

I agree. The more options, the better.

People seem to forget that even in the games with limited support options, it isn't like all the supports were well-written.

That does not excuse the poor quality of many of these supports. Just because something was not perfect in past installments does not mean the writers shouldn't try to improve them now.

[Gomez_Addams]

That does not excuse the poor quality of many of these supports. Just because something was not perfect in past installments does not mean the writers shouldn't try to improve them now.

My point was fewer supports do not automatically equate to better writing.

[Ryo]

By the logic of "more options = better", I can also argue the same for the lack of platonic supports between units of the same gender, or even between different genders. Especially in a game like Fates where same-gender supports also heavily affect the gameplay and contribute to replayability by determining the skill/class set of a unit. Should they be limited? From a gameplay perspective, no, because the players need as many options as possible. However, IS is currently doing the exact opposite. So why romatic supports can be nearly unlimited for the players to do their pairing and shipping, while non-romantic supports have to compromise? How is that fair?

Ideally, a unit should be able to support nearly every unit in the army regardless of gender. However, there is no way the writers would be willing to create such an amount of support conversations. The only way is to abort the whole conversation system, which I assume most people would be aversed to. Therefore, my point is limiting supports is not inherently a bad thing, since they are and will always be doing that to some degree. But the quantity of romantic and non-romantic supports need to be rebalanced. If non-romantic supports are always limited anyways, so should romantic supports, although it doesn't have to strictly follow a 1:1 ratio.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Ryo

[fletch]

I typed up a big reply to this topic but I'm not convinced I'm making sense so I'll post this, run away, and try again later

Elise+Suzukaze C-S http://pastebin.com/55PXCxEU

[eharper256]

I typed up a big reply to this topic but I'm not convinced I'm making sense so I'll post this, run away, and try again later

Elise+Suzukaze C-S http://pastebin.com/55PXCxEU

Oh gods its so cute.

It's funny as well, I was wondering earlier how cool it would be to have a Ninja Elise with a Magic-Based shuriken... this also gives good luck to Midoriko... so may now try it in one of my playthroughs.

[Dollysama]

Syalla + Deere C-A support: http://pastebin.com/u/Dollysama

I'm still working on their S support, so that will be up later. Please note my japanese isn't very good, so there is probably some mistakes in there.

God I hope nobody's already translated these XD

EDIT::: I've now uploaded their S support as well.

Read it here!

Edited July 18, 2015 by Dollysama

[Iron Griffin]

I noticed that the Kamui-Sexual characters have unique supports depending on the Avatar's gender. I've seen the ones for Izana and Crimson. Did anyone find the one for Yuugiri and F!Kamui?

[The DanMan]

I don't understand why some fans hate the marriage option so much...In Awakening it was one of the most popular features and it brought many new fans. If there hadn't been that many fans, Fire Emblem Fates wouldn't even exist. You know, because Awakening was suppossed to be the last game of the series. I understand that some supports aren't very good but there's no perfect game, right? The story is quite good, in my opinion, the characters have great design, the gameplay is very entertaining and you have a combo of 3 games to boot! Game developers always try to improve their games based on feedback from the ones who played them.

Okay, a little late to the party, but let's dig into it here (and I mean no offense with this; this just me expressing my opinion):

Spoilered for length

1. In Awakening. Awakening =/= Fates. The problem being is the amount of throwbacks to Awakening, but that's a different topic.

2. One of the most popular features that brought in many new fans. That, to me, is a bit disturbing. Fire Emblem is (or at least was) a Strategy RPG, not a dating sim. People who bought the game because of that I don't understand; they've got much better options for games like that. I think most of us here are sick of the "Waifu Emblem" nonsense that's tossed around. Yes, this may sound like I'm hating on those who enjoy it, but to reiterate: Fire Emblem is an SRPG. The "Dating Sim" elements are written and executed very poorly, and people who are interested in those types of games are much better off looking elsewhere; if that's someones prime source of enjoyment from the series they're better off looking elsewhere.

3. If there hadn't been that many fans, Fates wouldn't even exist. Let me clear things up, here: the series was not in as much danger as most think. The borderline commercial failure of the Tellius games did put a good dent in it. Shadow Dragon and New Mystery of the Emblem each sold about 250,000 (and the latter was Japan only). Actually, if you take a look at the series GBA onwards, that's a respectable amount. Nintendo told IS to exceed 250,000 most likely so they could make up for PoR/RD. And I think if Awakening hadn't been quite as successful, then Fates would have been one game with maybe a solid story, instead of multiple versions with lackluster stories.

Anyway, as for how supports should be handled, I really think 6-10 is the sweetspot, with an even mixture of platonic and romantic options. For romantic options, (as someone who I'm to lazy to remember the username of suggested) A supports should end with the pair starting a relationship. I think that S should be the pair deciding they will get married, and not doing so until the postgame.

[Sunwoo]

[spoiler=Support mechanic rant]The thing about supports in Awakening and supports in other FEs that had them, is that only in Awakening was marriage an actual gameplay mechanic. FE4 was before the support system was introduced, so that one doesn't really count even if it has a marriage mechanic.

In Awakening, time-traveling kids from the future was part of the storyline and so each pairable man and woman having a lot of options made sense -- it was literally a mechanic. In Fates, it doesn't make sense because children have no role in the story. We could've totally had S-supports that didn't lead to a proposal right then and there, and only indicated epilogue marriage at the end of the game. Fates doesn't really have an excuse to make everyone be able to marry each other, aside from "it's popular", and in a situation like that you sacrifice quality of supports to shove in something that doesn't really quite belong.

Each of the characters in Fates should've had limited marriage options, like Chrom and Sumia did. Maybe 4 on their own side that they can marry and 2 on the opposite side for a total of 6 options, not including avatar. Also, it would've been nice if there were some platonic opposite-sex supports (which have existed for a long time) that didn't lead to an ending.

"But what if people want to pair their character with someone the game would lock them out of? People wouldn't like that, you crazy person!" Yes, well, look at FEs 6-10. There were opposite-sex supports that were platonic and didn't lead to marriage (see: Lyn/Wil and Hector/Serra, and Priscilla/Sain, amongst others). Many people had limited options on who they could marry. Some couldn't marry at all, and in some cases it was impossible to pair everyone (Wil and Lowen's only endings were with Rebecca, and only one can marry her a given playthrough). People would probably whine if Fates went back to this system, but then they'd get over it. If anything, if a very significant amount of people are going to not buy the game JUST because they can't marry who they want to who they want when MOST games didn't let you do that and it wasn't a deal breaker then, that may be an indicator of how spoiled this fanbase got.

Elise and Suzukaze's supports were cute, and it's funny that she proposes to him. Too bad that they probably have a significant age cap between them ;/