Topazd Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Wait. They say what? .... Okay, I think I can now speak on what Fates is going to be. A demeaning pile of dung that treats its audience like malicious perverts, that is. I don't know who wants to fantasize over such a kind of relationship, but they should probably take a long, hard look at themselves. You're going to love this! [spoiler=Apparently the skinship dialogue for Takumi]Tc... What Haa... What are you trying to do Uu... C-cut it out Don't treat me like a kid...! Don't pet my head! Don't act like my senior... Hey Haa... Are you bored? Geez... That's ticklish... W-what? Waa! You're in plain sight! I'll catch a peek! Don't mess with peoples' faces like that Really, just what are you trying to do-! Fufu Haha What are you getting all quiet for? It can't be helped... Geez stop it already Mother sewed these clothes for me I'm not all that muscly am I Ahahaha, it tickles there! You really like playing around like that don't you Hey Ehehe... Look over here Stay with me forever Don't go off and die ok... Nn? What is it? I love you... nee-san I'm happy you're together with me n...? Is something wrong...? I'll... protect you... Please don't go anywhere... You're so warm ...Are you tempting me...? You can touch me wherever you like but... if I get in the mood you brought it on you know...? If mother saw this, what would she think...? It kind of, feels like we're doing something wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Obsidian Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 You're going to love this! [spoiler=Apparently the skinship dialogue for Takumi]Tc... What Haa... What are you trying to do Uu... C-cut it out Don't treat me like a kid...! Don't pet my head! Don't act like my senior... Hey Haa... Are you bored? Geez... That's ticklish... W-what? Waa! You're in plain sight! I'll catch a peek! Don't mess with peoples' faces like that Really, just what are you trying to do-! Fufu Haha What are you getting all quiet for? It can't be helped... Geez stop it already Mother sewed these clothes for me I'm not all that muscly am I Ahahaha, it tickles there! You really like playing around like that don't you Hey Ehehe... Look over here Stay with me forever Don't go off and die ok... Nn? What is it? I love you... nee-san I'm happy you're together with me n...? Is something wrong...? I'll... protect you... Please don't go anywhere... You're so warm ...Are you tempting me...? You can touch me wherever you like but... if I get in the mood you brought it on you know...? If mother saw this, what would she think...? It kind of, feels like we're doing something wrong. Mother would probably ask herself what crime she did commit to deserve being part of such a game. Definitely not supporting this with my money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen Cloud Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Keep in mind that these things might be paraphrased, wrongly translated or taken out of context. Not to mention that you, as the player, will hear the lewd lines of ONE character at most per play through. I have read worse stuff in some Manga that are otherwise great. You can pretty much ignore the skinship, ignore a few lines of dialogue in manga or anime. I don't like dem boobies in Magi The Labyrinth of Magic - still a wonderful series, though. I won't judge anyone for dropping a series because of this, but that hardly makes a game or manga the spawn of Grima. And if you really can't live with this optional feature in the game then you can just move on. Pick a game and pray. The thing with games is that you are always in for some surprises, good and bad ones. Edited June 27, 2015 by Fallen Cloud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPGatWill Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I agree that having a defining trait in itself doesn't turn a character into a mere caricature; it's a helpful tool that helps determine their function within the narrative and make them unique - and that is all fine and dandy. However, it depends on what these defining traits are, how they are fleshed out, how they relate to the wider context of the narrative, what tone they set, and whether they are actually helpful in making these characters more interesting. And that's, basically, where our disagreement seems to stem from. I did not like the personalities of the cast in FE13 (our grand example of a FE title with lots of fanservice as a focus) at all - in fact, I found them downright nauseating. The basic plot of Awakening was, as far I remember, a rather basic affair, convoluted by time travel shenanigans. In any case, the world of these characters was about to be destroyed by an existential threat named Grima - and some characters had even witnessed what a pleasant state the world would find itself in if this giant dragon-moth or whatever it was would enter the stage. Yet, none of the playable characters really conveyed a sense of urgency - given the fact that her whole company was slaughtered, Cordelia's survivor guilt is not really a major focus and that support deals a lot more with her (rather unrealistic) self-esteem issues, and Lucina gave us a little bit of angst, but none of that was really explored. (Despite her mission, she couldn't even muster the spine to execute you in order to save the freakin' world - because, after all, her personal feelings are much more important than the fate of millions. We fight for our friends - how much more narcissistic can a cast become?) Besides that, their defining traits were often reduced pure gimmicks - which found it's expression not only in the ending, where everyone just repeated that one trait that defined them while uniformly coming to the same conclusion, but even in their critical quotes, where they would say their little lines before ripping their opponents head off. Caring Sumia, bless her heart, would let out a nationalist war-cry, and shy dancer Olivia would be enraged about her opponent staring at her delectable features during battle. None of this conveyed any gravitas, any moral dilemma - it's self-absorbed teenage stuff that shows no concern for other beings. Earlier FE's tried to bring in some ambiguity and moral tension, but when you get such a fanservice-y title, these things aren't of any importance - it's the player and his waifus who matter. Furthermore, the character didn't fit the tone of their setting - they behaved like little brats on a field trip, having some fun kicking the baddies in their respective asses and having some saccharine teenage romance in between. Chrome came across as self-centered to the point where he would even leaving his realm in a time of crisis in order to search for you, the allmighty Avatar; one of the female characters (I can't remember who it was) was of course, all about your player character to the point of stalking and implicitly date-raping you; while most others were wholly consumed by their little crushes and insecurities that would better fit in a high school novel. They were a bunch of self-absorbed teenagers, not real people who are fighting a war. And maybe I'm repeating myself, but earlier casts in the Fire Emblem series weren't like that, for the most part - they had wider interests, they behaved like people with their backgrounds and contexts plausibly would behave; of course, most of them were attractive and could appeal to certain demographic, but they weren't pandering - Knoll might be irresistible for girls (and guys) who like it angsty and gothic, but his character would behave like a guilt-ridden scientist who is horrified by what he helped creating probably would. And that's where the problem with fanservice comes into play - it leads to characters that are intended to romantically appeal to an teenage audience, and players with all kind of fetishes; accordingly, they are fully build around these particular type of tropes. In FE:A, you had the rabbit girl for our fellow furries, the brooding, angsty swordsman who just needs to meet the right girl to get over his inner demons <3, the nerdy girl, the goth girl, the muscular jock without a shirt, the adorable klutz, even an improperly clad 6-year old girl for the paedos. Some characters are resurrected to give you a bit more variety - utterly helpless amnesiacs you can advantage off if you're so inclined, for example. And in their supports, all these characters behaved exactly like you would expect them to behave - they give you their fixes by showing the same titillating character traits over and over again, and they will not ever reject you, because they're here to give you a bang for your buck. And that's a problem - it reduces the types of characters we see, the interactions we get, the themes that are explored. Ambiguity, rejection, moral conflict, age, philosophical viewpoints, social standing are either left out or relegated to the sidelines - sanitized or mentioned in passing - when a game becomes a dating sim. In that way, this focus on fanservice, which is an outgrow of this mentality, does take away from the story and my enjoyment of it. I am fully prepared to admit that these are, of course, generalizations, and might not fit every single case. Gregor's support seems to be one of the better ones in the game - though, for me, is it a bit ruined by a cheap, non-sequitur marriage ending. Still, this is the general impression I got, and I do think it is a valid one. Now, of course, this is all about Awakening, and as everyone else, I can't fully comment on Fates. But it seems hell-bent on verifying my worst suspicions; for instances, we get tons of opportunities to ogle our virtual love interests in swim-suits and frolicking around some beaches. Doesn't this strike you as implausible? Doesn't this run counter to the established time and setting, and kill of any tension the supposedly dark story tries to build? True, even during war, people need to relax, but has it to be on such a high-school level? These are supposed to be adults, and young adults, raised in a hierarchical feudal society, after all - can you imagine Henry V. playing volleyball with his companions on the beaches of Normandy? What purpose does this serve besides us drooling over their figures? I'm not against attractive characters and silly moments (Fire Emblem always had them, and I'm not expecting a dead serious game with Shakespeare-level writing) but you can have that without killing the atmosphere. Apart from that, we get some lewd comments out of our husbandos by feeling them up a little, and good ol' Xander has no problem to fuck his adopted sister he has known since childhood, because getting off on incest is apparently a thing. Here, shipping and fanservice agains ruins some potentially good characters. (And for god's sake, have some class, people!) Plus, from the few spoilered supports I've read, the writing doesn't seem to get much better. Please keep in mind that these are subjective impressions, as all aesthetics are - there is no universal solution to what constitutes good writing, and my taste and reading may differ vastly from yours. I just tried to clarify my standpoint, and you are welcome to disagree. Yeah, I can understand where you're coming from now. In my experience, I feel pretty differently about it. Characters who try to find fun and enjoyment in the middle of war are a bit more relatable to me, not only because I myself have never and hopefully will never be in a war, but also because if I imagine myself in that situation, I'd try to find fun where and when I could. You could argue that them frolicing on a beach goes against the realities of war, but at the same time it's not as though army platoons aren't given time off to enjoy themselves. A lot of time they go out to bars or beaches and spend their days doing things they enjoy. When I think of Fire Emblem supports in the context of "These guys are doing things they enjoy during their freetime" it doesn't really bother me as much. Your right I did focus on awakening a bit much there, as I was trying to illustrate the point. From what I've read the plot in Fates is much better, and the supports may end up feeling a lot like awakening and they may not. I'd rather give it a chance before consigning it to terrible or pandering nonsense though. There's ways to write deep and interesting characters that technically pander to people's taste as well. So I guess we sort of agree to disagree there. Not that you don't make solid arguments. It's not just Japanese media that gravitates towards tropes, all media from everywhere does. Tropes are fine, they're just a tool and are not the concern. The concern is the type of trope and the extent it is played up. For example, the basic concept of a tsundere isn't really a problem, because some people really just are kind of bitchy until you get to know them. It's the contemporary overexaggerated moment to moment bipolar mood swinging aspect that becomes the polarising factor. Common sense applies here because going extremes in any area will ostracize moderates, and change indifference to loathing in those who have incliations against that angle. Then you've got stuff like tokusatsu imitators and chuunibyou wannabes...this goes beyond romanticised and enters the area of comedies and parody. The acuteness and intensity of a character's behaviour increases the acuteness and intensity of the feeling felt towards them. If a character does nothing interesting and says nothing interesting, you do not actively dislike or like them because they have no identifiers. If they do or say things then you begin to make judgements. If they do or say things to an extreme, your judgements will likely become more extreme as well. Nobody said simply having a defining trait made someone a caricature. Caricatures in writing are characters who have an exaggeration of some characteristics and oversimplification of others. You need both to qualify, and you'll find most of FE13's cast revolve around an exaggerated presentation of a personality gimmick that completely overwhelms and oversimplifies the rest of their character. I can't speak for this game as a whole in that respect but it is not an unreasonable assumption to make at this point when looking at precedent and the fact that there are bunch of clones who even have the same personalities. Additionally, it is not just critics that are assuming things here, fans are too because they were making distinctions about who to marry, kill, and fuck before the game even came out. You are simply reiterating the point I made before. "Characters are created with exaggerated traits at the forefront so as to allow a player to easily identify their preferential units with which to experience more content/dialogue/etc with. This plays into the fact that rather than existing for their own sake, the characters obviously exist for the player." Being "easily identifiable" just strengthens the argument that the game is making it plainly obvious that this is your playground and all the characters in the game are pets for you to play with, and is thus diminishing it's own tone and ability to make people take it's narrative aspects seriously. There is no compelling reason as to why they have to be easily identifiable as individuals from the get go without accepting that it's to facilitate the player. Honestly this is something of a looping scenario, your units are exaggerated in order to acutely please players so they can identify which of their pets are the most appealing to play with because the units are exaggerated to the point of polarising people so players need to identify which is pleasing to avoid being displeased. And regardless, one can form impressions of an individual without them being exaggerated, even in a short span of time. And these games have enough optional script to facilitate it. If you're balking at the prospect of being in the dark and using and reading interactions of people that you might not end up liking in the end then frankly that comes off as very insular. As for the rest of the post detailing other aspects of characters, you're again forgetting that because of the way the game presents it's cast, people act based on that first impression because they find whatever it is about that impression appealing. That's the thing that predominately sells the character, not the later stuff. You're already sold at that point instead of it being tentative. Additionally it is somewhat vexing as to how people keep trying to focus on this single "exaggerated character" criticism whilst trying to sidestep the larger issue at hand. It is but one factor in the overall concern, and is honestly dwarfed by the fact that the game enables you to grope all your soldiers or oogle them in underwear whilst they'll say all sorts of gross subservient shit like "It is an honor to be touched by you". Okay, I'm trying to fully understand but forgive me if bits slipped past me here. You do agree that using the trope is not inherently bad, but in how well they use and develop the character from that trope. For example, a Tsudere style character who is well written and developed as opposed to one who simply rockets between punching you and blushing. Here is where you believe FE13 had much of it's problem. I do agree that a few characters present very strong fronts, but I found most if not all the characters had deeper issues lying beneath. This is especially true about the future children, many of whom use these facades to pretend/bet away questions about the future, which was really horrible. Now, again this depends on your opinion regarding those supports, but I found most of them interesting in their own right. I believe most of the backlash came from how similar the supports were (Like Olivia's generally being about her shyness), the S ranks having no sufficient build up (an issue they likely won't manage to solve until another installment or two, I'd bet. Writing good relations that can be interpreted as friendship or romance depending on where the player stops building that support is difficult), and that the children didn't have different dialogue with their parents (a restriction of having everyone marry everyone else being possible). Are you wrong in these thoughts? Personally, I don't think so. However, this is also where we reach our disagreement (Amicable, of course). Video games are made for people to play. More so, the Fire Emblem series now has the Avatar, which is meant to be You/Your character fighting alongside your army in this universe. It's what brought me fully back into the fire emblem fold. I felt that Fire Emblem 7's tactician system was great, and that what IS needed to do was expand upon that system. It took them a few installments, but they've now gone that direction. I like that, but I also understand others may not. however, just because a character is made to be appealing or to get across certain tropes in a limited time to the player does not make them uninteresting. again, this is where our disagreement comes in. I don't think of them as pets or things to be played with, I think of them as new characters with new personalities that I may or may not want to explore. However, if all I got was a unit every chapter without even an introduction to that unit, I doubt I'd be as interested. Admittedly yes, this is because the game is not making an active effort to make me care about that character. Sure, it could also be my bias, I prefer the game to introduce these characters and give me glimpses into who they are before I put more time into them and you may think that's wrong or that entirely defeats the point. I understand our opinions differ here. One thing I will agree with and hope for: I think it would be cool to see improvements to the script. Of course I want each character to be even more interesting and in depth. That would be awesome. I'm just one of those who's actually pretty satisfied with what I got in awakening and Fates has shown enough to win my confidence. As for your last point, I think most people ship things knowing full well most of their ships will change once they have the game. It's just a fun way for me to keep my hype going during a long wait. As for the Outfits and stuff, I just consider it another option. I don't have to touch it if I don't want to. I probably won't looking at how hard it seems to be to farm resources and you have to give up precious resources for those outfits. I dunno. Reserving judgment there. Thanks for debating with me though. I see your points of concern. hopefully we find that happy middle ground in here somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Goodfellow Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) [stuff] I apologize if what I said offended you. It was intended to provoke thought, not anger. Though I disagree, I will not "correct" you and will endeavor to be more articulate in the future. Edited June 27, 2015 by Robin Goodfellow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Obsidian Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Yeah, I can understand where you're coming from now. In my experience, I feel pretty differently about it. Characters who try to find fun and enjoyment in the middle of war are a bit more relatable to me, not only because I myself have never and hopefully will never be in a war, but also because if I imagine myself in that situation, I'd try to find fun where and when I could. You could argue that them frolicing on a beach goes against the realities of war, but at the same time it's not as though army platoons aren't given time off to enjoy themselves. A lot of time they go out to bars or beaches and spend their days doing things they enjoy. When I think of Fire Emblem supports in the context of "These guys are doing things they enjoy during their freetime" it doesn't really bother me as much. Your right I did focus on awakening a bit much there, as I was trying to illustrate the point. From what I've read the plot in Fates is much better, and the supports may end up feeling a lot like awakening and they may not. I'd rather give it a chance before consigning it to terrible or pandering nonsense though. There's ways to write deep and interesting characters that technically pander to people's taste as well. So I guess we sort of agree to disagree there. Not that you don't make solid arguments. Well, my issue isn't so much characters having fun in the middle of war - that was always are part of the series, and some of my favourite supports are a bit on the wacky side. What irks me about this particular thing is that it's just a blatant excuse for more objectification (because let's be honest, that's the only reason why it was excluded), and that it's just such a mood-killing situation that doesn't fit a medieval/high fantasy setting. But Fates seem to have a lot of worse problems with its approach to its characters, which were now graphically demonstrated to me by these snippets from the face rubbing thing. And really, given our current state of information, Awakening seems much better in comparison to this game right now. Edited June 27, 2015 by The Obsidian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sakuramei Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) I just wanted to add my 2 cents since I voted "Yes" on the poll. I started with Awakening for one and I know a lot of people are upset with any of the love things altogether, but I just find the skinshipping and all the... obviously forced shots of chests and overly skimpy outfits (Not saying Awakening didn't, but I feel it's even worse in this game) or overly skimpy in certain areas plus the obvious fanservice-y cutscenes. Plus that one bathing suit that can't seem to properly cover any of the girls. I also find the S-Rank comments in the Skinshipping (and really the whole mode to an extent. Patting heads = kind of cute, but rubbing faces and etc. is kind of weird and the way they move reminds me of other heavily love sim games) pretty uncomfortable. I know it's technically "optional", but there's several pieces of dialogue that let you learn more about the characters (Not the S-Rank at least, but like C-A) and learning about the characters is my favorite part. Plus, there are outfits and things that are unlocked as well (which I believe do require the S-Rank...). I just wish it was done differently. I still plan to get the game (honestly have bigger concerns than this), but I would be lying if I said it didn't bother me. Especially considering I enjoy streaming games and I feel like I'm just going to feel awkward trying to stream this :( Edited June 28, 2015 by Sakuramei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irysa Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) I apologize if what I said offended you. It was intended to provoke thought, not anger. Though I disagree, I will not correct you and will endeavor to be more articulate in the future. Please, I wasn't "offended" by what you said. I was merely pointing out your hypocrisy. If you think it isn't hypocritical to try to talk about people being "fixated on controlling our own subjective realities and trying to make the world conform that we can't even be civil with people who are part of our own subculture." whilst simulteanously comparing attitudes opposing gratuitous fanservice to hate groups, then you'll have to elaborate or sustain your position a bit more. Disagreements cause division, obviously, but your point about intolerance doesn't carry any weight when I don't believe anybody (or at least, myself) has said "this kind of thing should never exist", and have instead complained that it doesn't fit the series or the tone. Okay, I'm trying to fully understand but forgive me if bits slipped past me here. You do agree that using the trope is not inherently bad, but in how well they use and develop the character from that trope. For example, a Tsudere style character who is well written and developed as opposed to one who simply rockets between punching you and blushing. Here is where you believe FE13 had much of it's problem. I do agree that a few characters present very strong fronts, but I found most if not all the characters had deeper issues lying beneath. This is especially true about the future children, many of whom use these facades to pretend/bet away questions about the future, which was really horrible. Now, again this depends on your opinion regarding those supports, but I found most of them interesting in their own right. I believe most of the backlash came from how similar the supports were (Like Olivia's generally being about her shyness), the S ranks having no sufficient build up (an issue they likely won't manage to solve until another installment or two, I'd bet. Writing good relations that can be interpreted as friendship or romance depending on where the player stops building that support is difficult), and that the children didn't have different dialogue with their parents (a restriction of having everyone marry everyone else being possible). Are you wrong in these thoughts? Personally, I don't think so. You may want to read this post and some of the subsequent ones as response, since I think I elaborate fairly well there. I have read a lot of supports for Awakening and I have to say that the main "identifier" for me as to who is who beyond their appearance is still very much rooted in their initial presentation, and has nothing to do with whatever small development they went through; mostly because there's very few poignant situations or conflict, and characters don't really move past their issues much either. However, this is also where we reach our disagreement (Amicable, of course). Video games are made for people to play. More so, the Fire Emblem series now has the Avatar, which is meant to be You/Your character fighting alongside your army in this universe. It's what brought me fully back into the fire emblem fold. I felt that Fire Emblem 7's tactician system was great, and that what IS needed to do was expand upon that system. It took them a few installments, but they've now gone that direction. I like that, but I also understand others may not. however, just because a character is made to be appealing or to get across certain tropes in a limited time to the player does not make them uninteresting. again, this is where our disagreement comes in. I don't think of them as pets or things to be played with, I think of them as new characters with new personalities that I may or may not want to explore. However, if all I got was a unit every chapter without even an introduction to that unit, I doubt I'd be as interested. Admittedly yes, this is because the game is not making an active effort to make me care about that character. Sure, it could also be my bias, I prefer the game to introduce these characters and give me glimpses into who they are before I put more time into them and you may think that's wrong or that entirely defeats the point. I understand our opinions differ here. Videogames are meant to be played, but I don't think games have to be centred around the player being pampered all the time. If you make characters behave like pets and allow the player to use them as such (people compare this feature to Pokemon amie and nintendogs all the time, but these are supposed to be people for goodness sake), then you are dehumanising the characters and making it obvious that they lack their own agency and purpose beyond the role of fufilling the player. Again, I wouldn't claim that past games in the series are notably exceptional overall for doing this, but there is at least an attempt to reach a point where characters are meant to feel like people who exist within the world, and you are an observer to that world, and can become immersed in it, as opposed to what we have now where most characters do not even attempt to feel geninue - they're there for your entertainment. One thing I will agree with and hope for: I think it would be cool to see improvements to the script. Of course I want each character to be even more interesting and in depth. That would be awesome. I'm just one of those who's actually pretty satisfied with what I got in awakening and Fates has shown enough to win my confidence. I don't believe that'll happen anymore, esp considering the voluptuous, subservient dialogue characters in this game have with the MC, but more power to you if you still have faith I guess. As for your last point, I think most people ship things knowing full well most of their ships will change once they have the game. It's just a fun way for me to keep my hype going during a long wait. As for the Outfits and stuff, I just consider it another option. I don't have to touch it if I don't want to. I probably won't looking at how hard it seems to be to farm resources and you have to give up precious resources for those outfits. I dunno. Reserving judgment there. To the first; that's a fair point and I hadn't really considered that. However, part of the reason early shipping is even a thing is because of how identifiable the characters are, so it's easy for people to imagine what they'll say or what their interactions will be like. This is part of the criticism I was raising. To the second, it still exists even if you don't want to do it, so you have to live with the knowledge that the game enables the player to grope their army and the characters will always submit. Edited June 27, 2015 by Irysa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPGatWill Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Please, I wasn't "offended" by what you said. I was merely pointing out your hypocrisy. If you think it isn't hypocritical to try to talk about people being "fixated on controlling our own subjective realities and trying to make the world conform that we can't even be civil with people who are part of our own subculture." whilst simulteanously comparing attitudes opposing gratuitous fanservice to hate groups, then you'll have to elaborate or sustain your position a bit more. Disagreements cause division, obviously, but your point about intolerance doesn't carry any weight when I don't believe anybody (or at least, myself) has said "this kind of thing should never exist", and have instead complained that it doesn't fit the series or the tone. You may want to read this post and some of the subsequent ones as response, since I think I elaborate fairly well there. I have read a lot of supports for Awakening and I have to say that the main "identifier" for me as to who is who beyond their appearance is still very much rooted in their initial presentation, and has nothing to do with whatever small development they went through; mostly because there's very few poignant situations or conflict, and characters don't really move past their issues much either. I don't believe that'll happen anymore, esp considering the voluptuous, subservient dialogue characters in this game have with the MC, but more power to you if you still have faith I guess. To the first; that's a fair point and I hadn't really considered that. However, part of the reason early shipping is even a thing is because of how identifiable the characters are, so it's easy for people to imagine what they'll say or what their interactions will be like. This is part of the criticism I was raising. To the second, it still exists even if you don't want to do it, so you have to live with the knowledge that the game enables the player to grope their army and the characters will always submit. You make some good points in that link. It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from either. I think my nonchalance in regards to some of that is in the very basic game design I've taken, along with all the narrative storytelling lessons I've learned. In a video game, these are MUCH harder to do. Unlike a novel, you can't tell the story you want to all the time. oftentimes, you need to tell a story that draws in and appeals to the player. This becomes even more important when you implement systems where the player is directly involved in the story. What's difficult is the solution. Unless they had a much longer development time and much more money to do it with, the support conversations likely can't be expanded upon/personalized to the point where they would be unique enough for every combination. even enough combinations just to avoid over repetition would possibly take weeks to implement, especially to avoid crossing stories between the 40+ characters. The only other way to potentially solve this would be to restrict the number of supports a character could have again. However, I think you'd agree that we likely won't see that happen. I am an optimist though. I was hoping there would be a small improvement in the variation this time around, with maybe some changes to the dialogue depending on if the characters were married. Sure, it may not happen, but I felt that was the next solid step. The awakening cast being stuck very much in their initial identifier I give you, mainly because one thing that I remember irking me is Cordelia's unchanged golden space and DLC lines about Chrom even after she was married. Bit of a bad impression can be given there, even knowing it was just 'general lines' the characters were meant to say. Will Face-rubbing make it ten times worse? i don't know. I know some people will still be irked by it even if they avoid it simply because it's there. I know I can be that way too. I'll continue being optimistic though. It's what I'm good with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimasho Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I don't think people should take fanservice too seriously...I'm not a fan of it either, but... I voted "no" but let's just say I'm going to be wearing earbuds when I do any face touching..(♡´艸`) But in reality, most of the lines aren't that bad ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueL Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Yeah, honestly. I can see where some people are coming from, the fanservice is quite a bit more apperent then previous titles, but at the same time, i've been hearing loads of people rave about how dark and good the story is. You can have both the more goofy and the more serious in the same game. They aren't mutually exclusive, also if you are in war. Morale has to be boosted somehow be it just having a cheerful time in a dining hall or relaxing in the spa with your fellows in arms, and if there was a couple? You'd bet your top dollar they'd be spending as much time with each other outside of the fighting as physically possible. That's how I feel about most of the fanservice in this game (excluding facerubbing). If you're going to have something like My Castle or the Outer Realms, it makes sense to have fun, relaxing things to do. A lot of people critical of fanservice talk about it dehumanizing the characters, but if you were in a war and had a magical base you went to after every battle, would you only want it to have weapon shops and a prison for foes? No, like Jedi said, you'd be ecstatic about a dining hall and spa. And IDK where these beach pics are coming from (avoiding spoilers), but if you could go to a beach in the middle of the war without losing ground or risking attack (which doesn't seem to be an issue with barracks or My Castle), you'd go. Does it change the fact that they're breaking the immersion of the story for unnecessary additions? No. Is the hot spring likely an excuse just to show characters semi-nude? Very likely. It might slightly pull you out of the story, but I think it's an acceptable sacrifice for most of My Castle's features, and more a player issue than a story issue. And by that I mean no one seriously writing up a detailed plot description will insert how they visited My Castle and did X, Y and Z between each chapter summary. Does it go against how past FE games were? Yes and so I understand why breaking this tradition bothers some other veteran FE fans. Both. They're intrinsically connected. True. I thought you meant both but I just wanted to be clear since you say I keep missing your main point. It's a distraction because it doesn't address the point I was actually making. Yes, if it wasn't the case that you could do that, it wouldn't be discussed, but the way it's being discussed is the concern. Ok. Come on, haven't you seen the kinds of posts flying around the internet? "Alright so, who are you gonna pair with who? I'm taking Camilla, Flannel is taking Elfie, Luna and Owain so they don't have a long distance Marriage, Lazward and Charlotte because if they agreed to an open relationship then fuck it he doesn't have to stay, Leon and Elise because let the fucker have his siscon romance, Xander and Azura because it's also incest, and I can't think of any other pairings I care for. Oh, if I have to choose who gets left out I choose Harold, he's ugly and his son no es bueno." Not even getting into people are literally making tierlists for who'd they'd fuck or not. If you think this kind of thing is somehow uncommon and you are the majority, you're sorely mistaken. I'm not going to say I haven't seen those but they're in the minority of the posts I see on the FEsub reddit and here, the only places I really go to for FE discussion. If you're referring to FE Fates discussion on places like 4chan, tumbler, /r/3DS, etc, I don't visit those places. (Emphasis on "I've seen". Not saying you're wrong on it being very common). I can see why you'd be offput if people spent a lot of time discussing that or that attitude in general since FE is traditionally about it's story, cast of characters and the war going on. I addressed this later in the post you're responding to. The point is to look at the overall trend within the game for how characters are created and why they are created, and I was drawing evidence to support my claim. Ok. Okay, but again, this is a distraction and I haven't said otherwise. I repeat, I raised such evidence as a way to support my claim about the overall trend in the game. This isn't a case of each singular aspect being solely responsible, it's the combination of them all together through which an impression is formed. Got it. Focused too much on a point. No it's not a singular thing and it's more complicated than that. It's not because "Duessel is a moral man" it's because I found his side story of being torn between his loyalty to his king and country against his own sense of justice to be compelling. I enjoy stories about characters caught between things they value highly and being forced to take decisions that reflect on what they care about most. Before, to serve the Emperor in itself was good, because the Emperor was benevolent. But it takes Duessel some time to realise that the two things are separate, as they've always been taken together for him. Duessel isn't some absoloute moral character in that respect, he wavers in a very relatable way, because he's trying to rediscover his purpose in life. It's really everything from his dialogue that leads up to his outburst in the pre Chapter 9 Ephraim script, and then that quiet resignation at to reality, in the realisation that the Emperor he knew is gone. When he meekly accepts orders, he's just defaulting back to his old behaviour because he doesn't know what else to do at that point, his reason to live has gone. He has to rediscover it. In a manner of speaking, reaching the opposite conclusion in a convincing way (aka Selena) is compelling as well, because the dilemma presented is interesting in itself. But it's the fact that Duessel manages to come out of it in the way he does that sells me; despite being left with nothing he redetermines his own purpose towards one of higher meaning. I really liked that. You write like a person who did well in English the way you write about characters. But anyway I think I have a better understanding now what you mean about the bios and liking the the characters for what they do and say rather than first impressions. Well tbh for Sumia it's more a case of "self deprecation moe" rather than "klutz" that defines her. That is still played up in just about every support she has. People don't really find "klutz" to be a desirable trait, it's the combination of being caring and incompetant that leads the doubt, which people see as "cute", and from there there's a basic desire to prop her up. She's meant to be like a sad puppy trying to climb into your bed, but being too small/silly to do it properly - there's a sense of "d'aww" at the situation, and you feel drawn to helping as a result. So basically that's a misappropriation of what her "gimmick" is. Well I think you're giving way too much credit to some people who dislike her (you're one of the few people I've seen in arguments about her to make this critique of her, a lot of people literally focus on her being a klutz) but I do understand you're point about her. If you were going to say she has a prominent trait, "self-depreciation moe" would be it. That being said, it truly doesn't come up in almost every support, unless by support you mean the entire group of supports per character rather than each individual C, B, A and S support. It's present in over half of them but I really wouldn't say it's played up, especially not the self depreciating part. At least not played up enough to call her exaggerated (I'm not saying you did). Minus her tripping problems (which don't come in supports) she is one of FE13's characters most capable of fitting in a prior FE game personality/behavior wise. Well, development takes into account what a character does. It's just an explict way of describing it. The point is to get away from first impressions being so predominately important. I agree with this. I think Awakening could have done a much better job of, to use vague terms, development and depth. Or as you put it it, making you like a character for what they done and said. I just think a good number of characters Confused by what you're getting at but I'll try to respond anyway. I'm saying that the characters are being made first and foremost with a design concern in mind to accomodate players, rather than to be individuals within a world. Again, I was presenting evidence to support that claim...you keep trying to focus on minor things to do with evidence, spinning it off into some different argument instead of rebutting the main point. I intentionally focused on that minor point because I wanted your opinion on it and I didn't fully understand your evidence. I think it's uninteresting, because it doesn't have the capacity to leave as strong an impact or to cause self reflection. It bothers me to see this series embrace that approach when it was aiming at something different before, and it was nice to have games to come to that ignored growing trends within the JRPG world for almost a decade. Ultimately, that's just preference though. I could try to make some argument of virtue or what the purpose of art is or whatever but being happy is important, so it's foolish to try to make an absoloute ruling on such a topic. I will say I do think that media with greater goals than mindless self indulgence are worth more, and that I think there's more to this than just preference, but going down that line is going to be long and complicated, because I'll just end up writing a buttload of random existentialist musings and maybe round it off with the usual patronising exclusivity that people as over-contemplative as me tend to arrive at. EDIT: I think there's also something to be said about the context within genres too I suppose. Characters from traditional FG series don't really need to be anything more than distinctive, because there the focus of the game is overwhelmingly on the mechanical interactions. But in narrative heavy games with room to characterise, it's dissapointing. I think I understand your point about the characters and I don't disagree with it. It's obviously ideal for characters to be able to have strong impact or enable self-reflection. Like I said in my prior post that you either ignored or didn't feel like responding too, reading about Jill overcoming the idea of Laguz being sub-human monsters was touching and was a really human moment. I've never claimed (in general, not referring to our argument) that Awakening did a good job at such things with it's characters. But people can still enjoy units who aren't quite 3-Dimensional (not saying you ever said it wasn't possible). *EDIT: 3-Dimensional relative to past FE games) Is it more of a gamble in terms of getting people to like characters this way? Yes because the characters appeal is less about what they do and say but rather about a notable trait that either appeals to you or it doesn't. But I was on the side that found them interesting. My points in defending Awakening's roster are: A) I disagree when people treat the roster as a whole as being inferior to past FE games. There are more than a handful of units in each prior FE game that aren't quite 3-dimensional. Not as many as Awakening, but still there. In short, I feel people gloss over the less interesting and well-rounded units of each past game and only seem to remember the well rounded ones. B) In a roster as big as FE's, you're not going to have an entire cast full of well rounded characters so I think inserting some really quirky characters are fine. Awakening inserted too many as a whole but doesn't stop me from being able to judge them individually. C) While they may seem less human for having certain exaggerated traits, I don't consider a character's with an exaggerated defining trait that lacks depth, motivations or development to be inherently worse than one who lacks such exaggeration but still lacks the depths, motivations or development that many FE13 characters did. But I understand that comes down to personal preference whereas it's harder to go wrong if you build a character who exists for their own sake. Speaking of exaggeration... D) Critical people tend to over exaggerate how often and how long certain exaggerated traits pop-up in FE13's supports. Yes, you'll never read a Miriel support and not be left with impression "well she likes to use big words" but there are many characters whose "gimmick" doesn't show-up in every support or almost every support. For most "gimmicky" characters their "gimmick" pops up at over 50% of the time. That's still a lot considering the quirks they have and relative to past FE characters, but doesn't quite approach being a caricature for me. Like how earlier you said Sumia being a self depreciaton moe is played up almost every support but, without counting each support, I'd say at least 40-50% of her individual supports she doesn't give you the feeling of "a sad puppy trying to climb into your bed, but being too small/silly to do it properly". E) Last, few or none of FE13's roster is actually 1-dimensional. Some might be barely 2-dimensional, and few reach 3-Dimensional status, but most are definitely 2D and I'd say a some are like 2.5 dimensional characters. As I said before, Validar is a 1-D character. He's evil for some illogical reason and we get little backstory on him. He only really expresses one side: being a malicious man bent on world destruction that he won't benefit from. No Awakening unit is nearly as shallow or limited as him. Most units have some combination of the following: motivation, development (granted it doesn't carry over between supports, but that's something that was in the GBA's supports too), history (albeit not explored enough for most of the cast) or do and say things to make them like-able or relatable beyond the impression their bio gives. But I understand that may not be enough to overcome some people's dislike of their exaggerated traits/behavior. edit: Additionally it is somewhat vexing as to how people keep trying to focus on this single "exaggerated character" criticism whilst trying to sidestep the larger issue at hand. It is but one factor in the overall concern, and is honestly dwarfed by the fact that the game enables you to grope all your soldiers or oogle them in underwear whilst they'll say all sorts of gross subservient shit like "It is an honor to be touched by you". I can't speak for anyone else but I'm not addressing the larger issue of "the game enables you to grope all your soldiers or oogle them in underwear whilst they'll say all sorts of gross subservient shit like "It is an honor to be touched by you"." because I don't disagree with you. If I didn't say it anywhere in this or my previous posts, let me make it clear that I dislike that being in the game and think it's a bad addition, I just, as we've already reached a stalemate on, don't think it dehumanizes them individually. I might feel different after playing the game if I have to use it a lot. Edited June 27, 2015 by BlueL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinehollow Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) But in reality, most of the lines aren't that bad ! The really lewd ones are probably Joker/Jakob's.He even has a cut line. On the topic:Eh.Some of it bothers me. I like Xander's S-support lines...I am weird. Edited June 27, 2015 by ShadowShine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irysa Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) You make some good points in that link. It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from either. I think my nonchalance in regards to some of that is in the very basic game design I've taken, along with all the narrative storytelling lessons I've learned. In a video game, these are MUCH harder to do. Unlike a novel, you can't tell the story you want to all the time. oftentimes, you need to tell a story that draws in and appeals to the player. This becomes even more important when you implement systems where the player is directly involved in the story. Eh, less a case of "can't" and "there are concerns other than vision". There isn't one set rule for game design philosophy anyway. People do make games and stories that challenge conventions and are not neccessarily pleasant experiences, and many of them are cult classics. Games have just always had the issue of being products primarily and creative works second unfortunately, and videogame auteurs are few and far between. However, it's not much to ask to not spread the game thin in terms of feature creep and content, and to focus on doing a few things well, rather than just half assing everything. EDIT: God dammit SF didn't tell me there were new replies in this thread and I'm about to sleep. I'll respond to you tomorrow BlueL. Edited June 27, 2015 by Irysa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) I haven't read all of these posts in too much detail, but I've read a fair bit, and there's something I think is a general theme here: why. Where is the motivation coming from? Whose objective are we pursuing? And then, of course, how the different answers to that question can manifest themselves. For instance, as people have said, going to a beach to relax from fighting for your life makes sense. The thing is that that doesn't seem to be the motivation (I think? I haven't spoiled myself for Fates and I never got bikiniDLC for Awakening). The motivation seems to be ~boob shot~ and ~ab shot~. When the motivation is not found internally, it necessarily weakens characters and/or plot. This isn't even a serious/funny issue. (at all, even the tiniest bit) Things can be absolutely farcical, this can be Spongebob, or Disgaea, but it's still critical that characters do things because they choose to. If FE wants to just be funny, I don't care, I just want to feel like there are people making choices within the story, not outside it. Edited June 28, 2015 by Rewjeo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimasho Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) The really lewd ones are probably Joker/Jakob's.He even has a cut line. On the topic:Eh.Some of it bothers me. I like Xander's S-support lines...I am weird. Oh, definitely; I had to stop watching for a few moments when hamayama was streaming a few days ago because...yeah, it got uncomfortable XD haha I liked Takumi's lines...until he mentioned the mom -___- Edited June 28, 2015 by mimasho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Griffin Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 These walls of text and the levels of salt. Tis a glorious sight indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awakener_ Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) These walls of text and the levels of salt. Tis a glorious sight indeed! Need not worry for us, we will enjoy all aspects of the game including game-play, story, fanservice, waifu and etc... But mostly Azura for me. Edited June 28, 2015 by Awakener_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shengar Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Mother would probably ask herself what crime she did commit to deserve being part of such a game. Definitely not supporting this with my money. I'll just quote this from different forum: The translator either didn't know Japanese very well, or didn't know at all and just used google translate or something.あなたの=anata no Your ドキドキしてるとこ、=dokidoki siterutoko, place that is 'doki doki'(an onomatopoeia for heart beats, or "throbbing") - so basically the place your heart is beating ie chest 肉を裂いて=niku wo saite tear flesh 見てみたいの…=mitemitai no... want to see So a better translation might be, "I want to tear open your chest and see inside". A little loose/lazy, but you get what it is supposed to mean. Please, don't take unverified, anonymous translation without grain of salt. The FE community already known to be rifted by Awakening's fanservice so it wouldn't be too surprising that the translation turned lewder than it should just to stir the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonicKeyblade00 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I don't mind the fan service at all. Never did, never will.But I do feel bad for the orignal fans of the FE franchise, where this is still sort of new (and raw) for them. Awakening came in as off-putting for these older fans and they didn't really like that game for a number of reasons.And Fates just multiplies the aspects that those fans did not like.Now while I feel sorry for those fans... the fact that Awakening was going to be the Final FE game and that said game also saved the entire franchise... well I feel that it is just a sign of the times sadly. The old FE model wasn't making any money. Fire Emblem was going to go the way of the "Mother/Earthbound" franchise or even the "F-Zero" franchise. So it comes down to whether you want to accept where the franchise is going or not.It's not a comfortable place to be, but it has happened to me on MANY franchises. Usually I'm on the side of the "older fan" but this is the rare occasion where I am on the other side as a "new fan, coming in". So I know how it feels. But I honestly believe that if Fates was made like Radiant Dawn or Sacred Stones or even Genealogy of the Holy War... that the franchise would slip right back down to those "disappointing" sales.So while I am happy with the way Fates is hanlding things and balancing old gameplay elements with new ones, I feel for the folks who just turn their head and cough. Sadly, I don't think there is any way to go backwards - to go back to the way things were. I just hope that they can enjoy the rest of us who are either fine or like or even love the way things seem to be going here on out.And I certainly wouldn't be insulting or mocking these folks. :/ Heck, there would have been no FE: Awakening of FE: Fates if we didn't get through FE 1 - 12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shengar Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Now while I feel sorry for those fans... the fact that Awakening was going to be the Final FE game and that said game also saved the entire franchise... well I feel that it is just a sign of the times sadly. The old FE model wasn't making any money. Fire Emblem was going to go the way of the "Mother/Earthbound" franchise or even the "F-Zero" franchise. So it comes down to whether you want to accept where the franchise is going or not. Fanservice alone does not grants FEA with 1.8 million sold copies. It's a fact that most fanservice laden game rarely able to gain 100k sales in Japan these days. Hyperdimension Neptunia for example, only sold 30k at average for each instalment and its PC release, only sold 80k-100k. It's a multitude of factors, from quality of presentation (graphic, animation, music), accessibility, marketing, good word of mouth, and excellent time of release that makes Awakening "saves" the series. Fanservices is only the cherry on top of the cake, it's never the main reason why it sold really well. But I think the existence of FE Amie shows how IS, like it fans did, overestimate the impact of fanservice on FEA's sales performance. It is such a shame because even without, with marriage still intact, the game would still sell very well regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) There are a lot of people responding to each other very rudely here. Intelligent Systems never promised any of us a 100% serious, gripping, character-driven plot with no deviation from the tone or continuity of past titles. People who cannot tolerate the mere existence of something that they disagree with (or that disagrees with them) are the most universally damning problem of humanity as a whole. That kind of thinking is the basis for every kind of hate group you can name. The game has not even been released in a version that I'd wager the majority of us can read, and already there are some of us who are crying foul about the watering down of plot and characterization. Our generation (I'm guessing just about all of us were born between 1982 and 2000) is so fixated on controlling our own subjective realities and trying to make the world conform that we can't even be civil with people who are part of our own subculture. It's very disheartening, and I wish that we could all just agree to disagree and give the game a chance (or not, and still not be rude about it). Complaining about complainers won't solve the problem. You can do things like ignore them and leave them to wallow in their own dissatisfaction. 'cept I'm a mod, so I have to read all of it. ;/ If you can't handle snarky or slightly belligerent rhetoric, perhaps an internet forum isn't the best place for you to be. Besides, it's quite apparent how the abundance of fanservice does indeed conflict with a lot of the themes the developers were shooting for. The fact that they had to alter the Hoshido route with 'oh, they're not really your siblings' is a good example of this. No-one is insisting that no silly characters or moments should exist, the problem is the sheer magnitude of the fanservice - when it starts to have a significantly detrimental impact. You choose to be belligerent/snarky. You can also choose to be neutral. This is NOT your right, and I'm deeply disappointed that you think it's acceptable behavior. This is NOT up for discussion. In other words: EVERYONE TONE IT DOWN. The problem is right now is that to me, it feels like people are complaining about things they don't like rather than say, does the fan service take away from the over all game-play and story? Which is a fair concern, but until the game makes it over seas we really can't make a complete judgement call. I do understand that with more fan-service there is a possibility of a lower quality game, but we should wait until we've played it and seen what the US version brings before we pass any serious judgement, praise or damnation. I'm a fan of giving it a fair first-hand shake. Though the touching weirds me out, I refuse to make anyone feel bad because I don't like it! First off all, no, I won't bite your head off, and I'm sorry if my post came off as rude or impolite - it might be due to the fact that English isn't my first language, and my ability to hit the right tone might be insufficient. After all, all these things we are discussing are by nature subjective and a matter of personal taste, so while we can disagree on certain points, I don't see why we should aggressive over something as insignificant as a video game. :) You seem relatively well-spoken, so if you're unsure about things like tone, I'll be happy to explain it to you via PM. It's something that native English speakers struggle with, even if some of them won't admit to it. Wait. They say what? .... Okay, I think I can now speak on what Fates is going to be. A demeaning pile of dung that treats its audience like malicious perverts, that is. I don't know who wants to fantasize over such a kind of relationship, but they should probably take a long, hard look at themselves. That's part of the reason why the touching weirds me out. HOWEVER. . .staying around here to complain about it will serve no good. AND THIS INCLUDES SEVERAL OTHERS OF YOU. So, I hope I don't have to read walls of text regarding anything else, because it's getting really old. EDIT: Unless you're commenting on my views regarding FE Amie, do NOT respond to this - that will be an automatic warning. Edited June 28, 2015 by eclipse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topazd Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I'll make an attempt at being somewhat more amiable, apologies for that remark. I haven't read all of these posts in too much detail, but I've read a fair bit, and there's something I think is a general theme here: why. Where is the motivation coming from? Whose objective are we pursuing? And then, of course, how the different answers to that question can manifest themselves. For instance, as people have said, going to a beach to relax from fighting for your life makes sense. The thing is that that doesn't seem to be the motivation (I think? I haven't spoiled myself for Fates and I never got bikiniDLC for Awakening). The motivation seems to be ~boob shot~ and ~ab shot~. When the motivation is not found internally, it necessarily weakens characters and/or plot. This isn't even a serious/funny issue. (at all, even the tiniest bit) Things can be absolutely farcical, this can be Spongebob, or Disgaea, but it's still critical that characters do things because they choose to. If FE wants to just be funny, I don't care, I just want to feel like there are people making choices within the story, not outside it. Very true, but I personally find DLC to be a slightly more favorable form of fanservice. At least, it's not something where I can declare it ruins the game merely by existing, since it theoretically doesn't exist in the main game (though it does since on-cartridge DLC and stuff). It's very apparent what the intent was, but OTOH the fanservice DLC episodes were marketed as such to begin with. There isn't any good characterization to be had there and I don't think the audience they're shooting for necessarily minds. I think they're a dumb addition, but not nearly as bad as many other things present here. And since people clearly keep buying them, I can't blame IS for making a profit out of that demand with something that isn't a part of the game proper (though on-cartridge DLC has it's own ethical issues). That's just me, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvilino Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) Fanservice alone does not grants FEA with 1.8 million sold copies. It's a fact that most fanservice laden game rarely able to gain 100k sales in Japan these days. Hyperdimension Neptunia for example, only sold 30k at average for each instalment and its PC release, only sold 80k-100k. It's a multitude of factors, from quality of presentation (graphic, animation, music), accessibility, marketing, good word of mouth, and excellent time of release that makes Awakening "saves" the series. Fanservices is only the cherry on top of the cake, it's never the main reason why it sold really well. But I think the existence of FE Amie shows how IS, like it fans did, overestimate the impact of fanservice on FEA's sales performance. It is such a shame because even without, with marriage still intact, the game would still sell very well regardless. Honestly with something Iwata said recently about their goal to raise the 3DS userbase in Japan I think that FE Amie and My Castle feature is something that may have been independant of FEA's massive sales success. I've said this in a few other topics but Nintendo's goal to raise the 3DS userbase in Japan is by appealing to more new female players and games like Animal Crossing, Nintendogs + Cats and Tomodachi Life established themselves as the systems biggest hitters outside of Mario and Pokémon(and even then Pokémon took notes from Nintendogs + Cats with Amie). Fire Emblem could utilize these elements itself because it has a base to work on(Support Mechanics and unit managament) and expanding on the relationship aspects and expanding the menus into a town hub is to appeal to the audience games that sold 4-7 million and appealing to a larger female and casual audience than targetting the audience of sub 100k games by appealing to otakus. In fact by adding in relationships features for the Animal Crossing/Tomodachi Life audience they'd draw in the otaku audience more as a side effect. But it's much easier to criticise as you can see by this topic by pretending they're for some reason aiming directly at a userbase that's more niche than Fire Emblem was before Awakening. Though I think in general just sticking to only what Awakening did wouldn't really give the series even a shot at growing and much less likely to increase the audience whereas stuff like My Castle could draw more new players and while also being something new and interesting to retain players who are already part of the playerbase. Which means if it proves popular enough it might equal Awakening's sales or if they're lucky beat it. Ofcourse as a long term player of the series face rubbing isn't what I play the games for. but fighting against it when everything I do like about the series is in and from what I've played been refined would be incredibly petty(and it is a tiny aspect, I'm up to chapter 14 and I've spent like 7-10 minutes total on the feature and that's fully using it every time the option re-appeared). The older Fire Emblem fanbase is not that big and already divided on how they perceive even the core gameplay between games so much that it'd ludicrous to expect every aspect of the game including story, characters and gameplay is tuned to meet my preferences(however gameplay-wise IS coincidentally made a lot of changes that I wanted the series to have for some time). Edited June 28, 2015 by arvilino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) It's not a comfortable place to be, but it has happened to me on MANY franchises. Usually I'm on the side of the "older fan" but this is the rare occasion where I am on the other side as a "new fan, coming in". So I know how it feels. But I honestly believe that if Fates was made like Radiant Dawn or Sacred Stones or even Genealogy of the Holy War... that the franchise would slip right back down to those "disappointing" sales. I can't really say I find that to be the case. Perhaps for Radiant Dawn, as that did sell poorly, but that could be a number of reasons. Awakening did very well for them at the correct time, but I don't think that they needed to do this in the next game... so either this is what they are making the series to be from now on, or they have no confidence in the game to stand on its own legs. It's no real surprise that many games in the series are radically different like Gaiden, Genealogy of the Holy War, Thracia 776, etc. It's a series that hasn't been static. I have to admit, if the next game isn't changing things like other games in the series have, I won't be bothered but will probably just lose interest. I will give Fates a chance, but at the same time I hope future games hold to the tradition of sticking to a few games before changing its formula. Edited June 28, 2015 by Tryhard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camilla Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) I find it hilarious that so many people are whining about Camilla being fanservicey because her boobs jiggle or because of the bottom half of her outfit when Ophelia and Nyx have on way less clothing than her. Ophelia's panties are even transparent! Then you can actually see part of Charlotte's vagina in her outfit. Orochi's design is almost in the same boat as Charlotte's, but the cut isn't as extreme. I can't even take the posts that link to Camilla's one second boob bounce or mention of Camilla's "inappropriate panties" as the examples for game fanservice seriously anymore. Edited June 28, 2015 by Camilla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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