[Spoiler] Camilla's S support options

[eclipse]

By the time I got to it, it calmed down. However, keeping this unlocked isn't a guaranteed thing. If things blow up again, I'm locking it.

EDIT: Regarding the "loved you for a very long time" thing, Jaffar/Nino does that. And Sigurd/Deidre was similar, as well.

Edited June 26, 2015 by eclipse

[Book of Ereshkigal]

My memory is fading, may I ask which characters say something akin to I have been in love with you forever during S-Rank for Awakening?

And do the same character say the same I have been in love with you forever to other characters too during S-Rank?

Chrom x Maribelle

Milord, I am...deeply and madly in love with you! I always have been so, even when we were but children.

LissaxFrederick (I admit this one is a little bit of a stretch)

Frederick

And what dream was that?

Lissa

To marry my first love, obviously! It's kinda every girl's dream.

LissaxStahl

Lissa

...... Oh, Stahl, yes! Yes, of COURSE I'll marry you! I've loved you forever!

RickenxMaribelle

Ricken:

Oh, Maribelle! I've been in love with you since the moment we met! I'll make you happy! I swear it!

That's all I felt like digging up before boredom.

Lissa does it twice, yeah.

Edited June 26, 2015 by L95

[ninjapokemon]

^ Interesting, but not entirely convincing.

Maribelle says I have loved you since early on to Chrom. Maribelle doesn't say the same thing but it is Ricken who says I have loved you forever to Maribelle. Debunked.

Lissa says Frederick is first love. Lissa says I loved you forever to Stahl. First love > forever as forever can just be a hyperbole. DEBUNKED

Your theory isn't holding up that well tbh.

Edited June 26, 2015 by ninjapokemon

[NekoKnight]

I can kind of see OP's point, minus the slut shaming. While other characters claimed to have loved people 'since forever', love isn't so central to their character, as it is with Camilla. You could be forgiven for not knowing Lissa has always been in love with Stahl but Camilla's affection for Kamui is hammered in from her introduction. That said, it's possible (probable) that Camilla still loves Kamui even if she ends up marrying someone else. It's only a contradiction if she claims to have loved more than one person since forever.

Only chrom x village girl is canon.

He didn't just marry 'a' village girl, he married ALL of them. In all the hamlets and in every village. Chrom is a humungous slut!

[Book of Ereshkigal]

^ Interesting.

So "I have loved you since forever" is only CANON for that SPECIFIC pairing in your PLAY THROUGH.

Because you viewed that particular S-Rank, that means it is canon, however if you don't view that particular S-Rank, even though you already "know" it by reading it online etc, then it is not CANON for that play through.

Is the above correct? The Schroindinger cat thing.

...?

I don't... think that is what canon means...

[...]love isn't so central to their character, as it is with Camilla. You could be forgiven for not knowing Lissa has always been in love with Stahl but Camilla's affection for Kamui is hammered in from her introduction. That said, it's possible (probable) that Camilla still loves Kamui even if she ends up marrying someone else.

This makes me think, Camilla's kinda a Catria/Cordelia in that situation, huh.

Edited June 26, 2015 by L95

[Sunwoo]

I don't get what the point of this topic is anymore.

Even if we have been "in love" with someone forever, romantic feelings are not static. Feelings change, sometimes because we realize we don't like that person in that manner, or because the person does not return our affections and life goes on. If Kamui decides to marry someone else (like, say, Belka) does that mean Camilla should never get married and never move on with her life and never try to find someone else she cares about?

And while a big part of Camilla's character is that she is very devoted to Kamui, why does the "love" between them have to be in a romantic way? Unlike Tharja or Cordelia, who are clearly devoted to Robin and Chrom in a romantic way, Camilla dotes on Kamui as a sibling above all else. Heck, Oboro's profile feels that it was an important part of her character to state that she is in love with Takumi, and she can support with people who are not Takumi. And I've never seen anyone call her a slut or something over this. So what is this obsession with Camilla?

I don't think it's even Camilla's "attraction" or "obsession" with Kamui that makes people want to call her a slut. It's the way she looks.

[Jedi]

I agree ^

Also I guess I myself am a slut for having feelings for a girl for 8 some years, and realizing it was faulty after she was really not honest with me at times a possible relationship could be formed then I let go, and have feelings for someone else now. Despite the fact that during those 8 years I felt I loved the former, things changed. Life changed.

Geez, we have brains for a reason its called using them.

And to the topic at hand, nothing in story supports Camilla being anywhere near a slut.

[ninjapokemon]

...?

I don't... think that is what canon means...

This makes me think, Camilla's kinda a Catria/Cordelia in that situation, huh.

Yes, actually, canon is your pairings for a particular play through:

1) Say if Apple is S-ranked with Orange. Apple says I have been in love with Orange since the first time I met you. This is now canon for first play through.

Apple canonically loves Orange and Apple's first love is Orange.

2) Now, Apple is S-ranked with Peach. Apple says I have been in love with Peach since forever. ​This is now canon for the second play through. Even though you know from the first play through that Apple loved Orange before S-rank has occurred, this knowledge is gained from the previous play through, and thus it does not hold in the current second play through.

Apple canonically loves Peach and has loved peach since forever. You interpret what forever means.

This is my theory and I propose this theory to TC to ease his worries.

And while a big part of Camilla's character is that she is very devoted to Kamui, why does the "love" between them have to be in a romantic way? Unlike Tharja or Cordelia, who are clearly devoted to Robin and Chrom in a romantic way, Camilla dotes on Kamui as a sibling above all else.

Look I hear you. But Camilla's affection towards Avatar is romantic in nature. She says so in her S-rank support. Unless Camilla continues to suggest she still holds romantic feelings towards Avatar when she S-ranked other characters and only until such words are uttered, my theory above still holds but shall now be changed slightly:

3) Apple is still S-ranked with Peach. But Apple says to Peach, I still hold romantic feelings for Orange. Apple says I cannot forget Orange as Orange is my first love. On the second play through and on this play through only, Apple still canonically loves Orange despite S-ranking Peach. This is different from 2) because Apple uttered such words.

Apple canonically holds romantic feelings for Orange, Apple's first love is Orange, despite being now married to Peach.

I hope I have put everyone to ease with my grand but very well thought out and logically superior theory.

Edited June 26, 2015 by ninjapokemon

[Ciarre]

3) Apple is still S-ranked with Peach. But Apple says to Peach, I still hold romantic feelings for Orange. Apple says I cannot forget Orange as Orange is my first love. On the second play through and on this play through only, Apple still canonically loves Orange despite S-ranking Peach. This is different from 2) because Apple uttered such words.

Apple canonically holds romantic feelings for Orange, Apple's first love is Orange, despite being now married to Peach.

Where's your proof that Camilla does this in other S supports? This sounds like some Cordelia level BS and I doubt the writer would've included this, especially since her being in romantic love with the avatar isn't a central part of her character. And no, it's not romantic love UNLESS you decide to S rank her, otherwise you can take it as "I love you as a sibling" or whatever.

[ninjapokemon]

^ You aren't wrong. But I am not wrong either. Why? Because my theory is about Apple, Orange and Peach. It is not about Camila.

My theory is about a way of thinking.

And in fact, theory number 1 and 2 is exactly what you are proposing right now. Theory 2 suggests previous knowledge of S-rank supports details iis not canon for subsequent playthroughs.

Apple's first love is Orange in play through 1. Though you know Apple loved Orange in play through 1, play through 2 is about Apple loving Peach since forever. Play through 1's knowledge does not hold.

My theory is so damn good.

[Terrador]

Except for the ~small~ matter of how in-universe, things happened before the playthrough. So naturally, things happened before the supports you put into place--including, yes, the nature of Camilla's initial affections for Kamui, whatever the nature of that is. So yeah, there might be inconsistencies with dialogue, or Camilla might be outright lying, if, in fact, the scenario presented by ninjapokemon reflects the game--and as far as I can tell, what's being claimed doesn't really have a base in the game. If memory serves, it's confirmed that Camilla does have the "I've loved you forever" line with Avatar, but let's be real--how long ago the romantic love started 1) isn't made explicit by that statement, 2) obviously can't be since they met, and 3) really does not matter in any substantial way.

But frankly, all of that doesn't matter to begin with, because there is no such thing as a canonical gameplay choice. There are canonical events that happen given gameplay choices, but the gameplay choices aren't actual canon. It isn't canon for Ike and Soren to A support, but if you do, Soren canonically follows Ike into the desert at some point following the events of Radiant Dawn. That's just the nature of the beast.

Caring about whether your waifu choice or given gameplay minutia is canon does nothing but give people headaches.

Also, a footnote on the sluts thing, since this bleeds into real life: stop caring. Seriously, just... stop. It accomplishes literally nothing but putting women down. Have fun with your misogyny if you care. There is nothing objectively wrong with boning everybody who's down for it. There's something wrong with treating partners poorly or dishonestly, yes, but there's no reason to say "that's a character flaw" until and unless it's presented.

To say nothing of this: if you care so much about policing women's sexual conduct that it bleeds into your evaluation of games, you have some mental cleaning up to do, and big-time.

/bahpost

[ninjapokemon]

^ Actually, Camilla does say in her S-rank support she has loved Avatar since they first met. Avatar is her first love. She then ponders whether this is what a breakup feel like should Avatar reject her love proposal.

Look I understand the general feelings expressed but all I am saying is the above is true. There is a VERY strong argument for Camilla's canon love interest, unrequited perhaps, to be the Avatar.

However, theory 2 states that if in a subsequent play through, Camilla does not refer to Avatar as her first love, or loved him since they first met, etc, then in that particular play through, Avatar being the first love of Camilla does not hold.

It is really quite simple.

[Terrador]

...except not. Things happen regardless of whether or not people talk about them. I'm not going to talk about how I held a handle for my stepbrother when I'm telling the beau du jour, potentially my life partner, that he's hot shit and I want his body. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

E: And by proxy of another, clam the ego down. As for me: you do realize that nobody cares how smart you claim to be, right? At very least, nobody worth impressing.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Terrador

[georgetruman]

or Camilla might be outright lying

This is really relevant. I think it's important to remember that dialogue can be unreliable. Just because a character says something in a Support conversation doesn't mean that it's true.

[ninjapokemon]

...except not. Things happen regardless of whether or not people talk about them. I'm not going to talk about how I held a handle for my stepbrother when I'm telling the beau du jour, potentially my life partner, that he's hot shit and I want his body. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

E: And by proxy of another, clam the ego down. As for me: you do realize that nobody cares how smart you claim to be, right? At very least, nobody worth impressing.

Well I think I was exaggerating when I was saying how logically superior my theory is. I was half serious half not serious on that point.

You're right again but I'm not wrong you know? We can only work with what the game's scripts tell us. Because anytime you deviate from that, anything can happen based on anyone's imagination.

All I am saying is if based on the scripts and scripts alone, my theory works! :)

[tofu]

Can we honestly stop calling the female characters in this game sluts just because of their personality, character design, and supports?

Also

I'm so not surprised that nobody called Garon a slut since it's implied that the Norhian siblings have different mothers by Garon...

Double standards, eh? : /

Also, by your theory, both male and female Avatars in Awakening and Fates are probably the biggest sluts because they have the biggest S supports *rolls eyes*

Edited June 26, 2015 by tofu

[AlphaZero]

can·on¹

ˈkanən/

noun

1. 1.

   a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged.

   "the appointment violated the canons of fair play and equal opportunity"

   synonyms: principle, rule, law, tenet, precept; More
2. 2.

   a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine.

   "the formation of the biblical canon"

Just gonna leave this here because there is a BIG misunderstanding about the definition of canon here. Canon is something that is confirmed or very widely accepted by a community, not something you make up to justify cop-out writing. I really don't think anyone wrote that support trying to put any evidence insinuating any canon pairings whatsoever. Given that you can possibly never see this if you don't activate the S-Support or just choose to play as Femui. Also, using the word "theory" basically makes your claim to something being canon void as it is just what YOU interpret the text as.

[Tribute]

slut shaming holy war aside,

In what world do "potential" S supports constitute being a slut

AFAIK she isn't hanging out in your castle letting the whole whole cast run train on her. It seems perfectly normal that someone like her would get her pick of the litter for marraige options

Edited June 26, 2015 by Tribute

[Terrador]

...you're literally ignoring that I've pointed out your implicit claim that the past changes based on gameplay decisions. Camilla has some feelings for Kamui before the player ever boots up the cartridge--views one way events could pan out, if you would. If past events are described or not described in two different branches, that doesn't change what those events were, just how they're represented. I think I can safely say that your gameplay choices don't change what happened in the past unless the game implicitly says so.

slut shaming holy war aside,

In what world do "potential" S supports constitute being a slut

AFAIK she isn't hanging out in your castle letting the whole whole cast run train on her

This is a fantastic post, thank you. Edited June 26, 2015 by eclipse
Merged double post

[Terrador]

slut shaming holy war aside,

In what world do "potential" S supports constitute being a slut

AFAIK she isn't hanging out in your castle letting the whole whole cast run train on her

This is a fantastic post, thank you.

[CyberNinja]

I'm so not surprised that nobody called Garon a slut since it's implied that the Norhian siblings have different mothers by Garon...

Double standards, eh? : /

He ain't purty, he can't be a slooot...

jk

@AlphaZero

The advent of "headcanon" or (...sigh) "Cannon" means that misunderstanding will persist regardless of how many times the real definition is brought up.

Edited June 26, 2015 by CyberNinja

[Solkia]

I feel like Awakening has made us forget what supports are meant to do in the first place.

Camilla having a multitude of Support options makes her an ideal unit.

and slut is such an ugly word

[Camilla]

What a cute thread.

[eclipse]

What a cute thread.

Thank you for giving me every reason to lock this.

Now, my thoughts: Canon is the author's final word on the subject, and human memory is faulty. Hence, even if Camilla said that to Kamui, it's possible her newfound "OMG I CAN MARRY HIM!" thoughts are giving her past memories a nice, rosy color.

Lastly, Camilla's multiple supports is absolutely no reason to call her a slut. Women are free to socialize, and she's bound to one husband, just as the rest of the female cast is.