Main Aqua discussion thread.

[Pepper]

Awakener since your hear and I'm kinda lazy to find it in the game could you tell us when Kamui finds out about Aqua's life drain Pendent in IK and tells her to quit using it?

[Awakener_]

Awakener since your hear and I'm kinda lazy to find it in the game could you tell us when Kamui finds out about Aqua's life drain Pendent in IK and tells her to quit using it?

Should be the point where the party went to the IK, I didn't finished the stream of IK since i still wanted to left some of the game unspoiled.

[The DanMan]

Reminder that Sumia/Chrom pretty much dissapears (besides the infamous punch scene) after Sumia joins.

I'd actually argue Ninian/Eliwood was a bit more pushed, as it's there in steady amounts throughout a much larger part of the game.

[Iron Griffin]

Reminder that Sumia/Chrom pretty much dissapears (besides the infamous punch scene) after Sumia joins.

I'd actually argue Ninian/Eliwood was a bit more pushed, as it's there in steady amounts throughout a much larger part of the game.

Well there was also that little rescue scene that had ship tease written all over it as well and her "Get A Hold of Yourself" moment when she slaps Chrom back into his senses during his depression over

Emy's death

not to mention that infamous glitch when Lucina joins where you see a phantom Sumia creepily watching if Marrible is the mother hmmmmmmm.

But yes compared to Ninian/Eliwood its really nothing. I think they were also paired in the novelization from what I heard.

[CocoaGalaxy]

This probably isn't the right place to comment on this, but ironically, the more I read the story, the more "impressed" I am with Azura.

I totally didn't connect the dots even though I knew them, I must be blind.

Azura suggests to make Garon sit on the Hoshido Throne. Mikoto mentioned it back in Chap 4/5 I think, that it has the whatever special powers it has, so it actually was a sensible suggestion.

Whether or not it is justified in the big picture of things is another matter though

[Pepper]

This probably isn't the right place to comment on this, but ironically, the more I read the story, the more "impressed" I am with Azura.

I totally didn't connect the dots even though I knew them, I must be blind.

Azura suggests to make Garon sit on the Hoshido Throne. Mikoto mentioned it back in Chap 4/5 I think, that it has the whatever special powers it has, so it actually was a sensible suggestion.

Whether or not it is justified in the big picture of things is another matter though

"It was actually smart move on her part", story is still not good in Nohr in Ik while still a bad plot I did like that Aqua and Kamui took charge as the leaders of the party. edit sorry I didn't put air quotes to show my sarcasm.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Pepper

[Azz]

This probably isn't the right place to comment on this, but ironically, the more I read the story, the more "impressed" I am with Azura.

I totally didn't connect the dots even though I knew them, I must be blind.

Azura suggests to make Garon sit on the Hoshido Throne. Mikoto mentioned it back in Chap 4/5 I think, that it has the whatever special powers it has, so it actually was a sensible suggestion.

Whether or not it is justified in the big picture of things is another matter though

While yes that is a good suggestion.It also involves invading Hoshido and you know the deaths of two of your Hoshidan siblings.

[RedMage]

While yes that is a good suggestion.It also involves invading Hoshido and you know the deaths of two of your Hoshidan siblings.

Yeah, this. Why couldn't they try to tell the Nohr siblings first? It's not like they don't know that Garon is doing a lot of crazy stuff, like ordering mass murders.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Yuina

[Thane]

Azura suggests to make Garon sit on the Hoshido Throne. Mikoto mentioned it back in Chap 4/5 I think, that it has the whatever special powers it has, so it actually was a sensible suggestion.

The general consensus seems to be that it's a terrible, terrible idea, and it's made even worse by the fact that Azura and Kamui don't actually tell the Nohrian siblings about it, something which is lampshaded by Leo.

I think it's one of the major reasons why Conquest is an utter failure as a story.

[Gomez_Addams]

Yeah, this. Why couldn't they try to tell the Nohr siblings first? It's not like they don't know that Garon is doing a lot of crazy stuff, like ordering mass murders.

Asking them to betray their country, their people, and their beloved father... on some cockamamie story that for all they know Kamui made up.

[B.Leu]

Asking them to betray their country, their people, and their beloved father... on some cockamamie story that for all they know Kamui made up.

Kamui didn't do anything wrong, they knew him all of his life and are devoted to him, moreso since we're talking about the Nohr path., and I'm pretty sure they don't really care about Garon that much. :p

The only remotely possible reason as to why they would think of not trusting Kamui: Some very convenient jerkass/idiot ball given there and there, or a very convenient plot not unlike that other one from the third path.

Eh, it reminds me of Tales of the abyss. :p

Edited July 24, 2015 by B.Leu

[The DanMan]

Asking them to betray their country, their people, and their beloved father... on some cockamamie story that for all they know Kamui made up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't everybody not named Marx suspect their "father"?

[Thane]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't everybody not named Marx suspect their "father"?

Suspects what? Garon is a killing machine and Xander accepts everything through clenched teeth, even though he had already saved Kamui against his father's wishes earlier in the story, so we've got some nice examples of character regression.

We should just forget Conquest even exists.

[Gomez_Addams]

Suspects what? Garon is a killing machine and Xander accepts everything through clenched teeth, even though he had already saved Kamui against his father's wishes earlier in the story, so we've got some nice examples of character regression.

We should just forget Conquest even exists.

There is no regression. Marx is ready to bend the rules a bit to save lives. He is not ready to commit treason.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Gomez_Addams

[The DanMan]

Suspects what? Garon is a killing machine and Xander accepts everything through clenched teeth, even though he had already saved Kamui against his father's wishes earlier in the story, so we've got some nice examples of character regression.

We should just forget Conquest even exists.

"We should just forget Conquest even exists."

Okay. And it seems like we've already forgotten that the majority of the people on this forum want a more challenging, strategical gameplay experience. Plus, Nohr generally seems to have the better/more popular characters.

I understand that you hate the story, but at the end of the day it's a videogame: how many games are there with great gameplay and crap stories? Yes, there's the way it was advertised; yes, there's the numerous story issues. But everything I've heard about the gameplay makes me confident it's going to be an enjoyable game. You want a good story? Read a book.

[Thane]

There is no regression. Marx is ready to bend the rules a bit to save lives. He is not ready to commit treason.

Since I really have to go soon, I considered being cheeky and quoting you saying "I will never understand how people can think like that" or whatever it was. However, since that's an unbelievably stupid reply, you'll have to make do with a few disjointed thoughts as to why I think that argument doesn't hold water.

Garon considers not obeying his every whim treason, so Xander has already committed treason no matter how you look at it; Kamui blocking that fireball made Garon so angry that he had to more or less beg for forgivness and was given a mission as atonement.

Xander reaches the conclusion that his father has to be stopped by himself in the third route.

The plan from the very get-go is ludicrous and only made possible thanks to yet another one of Azura's plot devices.

It's just poor writing in general, since it's first and foremost not interesting in the slightest to watch the main characters acting like spineless cowards and accepting everything through clenched teeth. It makes them all look bad, Xander in particular because he's in the center of it.

Not sure if this should be related to the previous point or if it's even relevant at all, but I still can't get over what was pretty much a lie in the marketing; you're not reforming the country from within, you're a yes-sayer until the penultimate chapter.

Like I said, I've really got to go, but those are my quick thoughts on the matter, and I hate leaving someone hanging; you could always check out my "The Light That Shines in the Dark" thread about Nohr's story in case my answers weren't enough

"We should just forget Conquest even exists."

Okay. And it seems like we've already forgotten that the majority of the people on this forum want a more challenging, strategical gameplay experience. Plus, Nohr generally seems to have the better/more popular characters.

I understand that you hate the story, but at the end of the day it's a videogame: how many games are there with great gameplay and crap stories? Yes, there's the way it was advertised; yes, there's the numerous story issues. But everything I've heard about the gameplay makes me confident it's going to be an enjoyable game. You want a good story? Read a book.

But...I am reading books...I'm reading Sherlock Holmes at the moment.

Stories in games are the most important aspect to me, and the story was hyped up so damn much and they failed to deliver on every level.

Sure, if I completely ignore the awful story then Conquest is brilliant; in more or less every debate I've been in I've praised the gameplay and the map designs.

I still sort of want to repress my memories of the story.

Now I've got to skedaddle.

[The DanMan]

Since I really have to go soon, I considered being cheeky and quoting you saying "I will never understand how people can think like that" or whatever it was. However, since that's an unbelievably stupid reply, you'll have to make do with a few disjointed thoughts as to why I think that argument doesn't hold water.

Garon considers not obeying his every whim treason, so Xander has already committed treason no matter how you look at it; Kamui blocking that fireball made Garon so angry that he had to more or less beg for forgivness and was given a mission as atonement.

Xander reaches the conclusion that his father has to be stopped by himself in the third route.

The plan from the very get-go is ludicrous and only made possible thanks to yet another one of Azura's plot devices.

It's just poor writing in general, since it's first and foremost not interesting in the slightest to watch the main characters acting like spineless cowards and accepting everything through clenched teeth. It makes them all look bad, Xander in particular because he's in the center of it.

Not sure if this should be related to the previous point or if it's even relevant at all, but I still can't get over what was pretty much a lie in the marketing; you're not reforming the country from within, you're a yes-sayer until the penultimate chapter.

Like I said, I've really got to go, but those are my quick thoughts on the matter, and I hate leaving someone hanging; you could always check out my "The Light That Shines in the Dark" thread about Nohr's story in case my answers weren't enough

But...I am reading books...I'm reading Sherlock Holmes at the moment.

Stories in games are the most important aspect to me, and the story was hyped up so damn much and they failed to deliver on every level.

Sure, if I completely ignore the awful story then Conquest is brilliant; in more or less every debate I've been in I've praised the gameplay and the map designs.

I still sort of want to repress my memories of the story.

Now I've got to skedaddle.

Just to clear things up a bit, I was not trying to be offensive; it's just a bit tiring of seeing Nohr story hate freaking everywhere on the subforum.

[Gomez_Addams]

Garon considers not obeying his every whim treason, so Xander has already committed treason no matter how you look at it; Kamui blocking that fireball made Garon so angry that he had to more or less beg for forgivness and was given a mission as atonement.

Xander reaches the conclusion that his father has to be stopped by himself in the third route.

The plan from the very get-go is ludicrous and only made possible thanks to yet another one of Azura's plot devices.

It's just poor writing in general, since it's first and foremost not interesting in the slightest to watch the main characters acting like spineless cowards and accepting everything through clenched teeth. It makes them all look bad, Xander in particular because he's in the center of it.

Not sure if this should be related to the previous point or if it's even relevant at all, but I still can't get over what was pretty much a lie in the marketing; you're not reforming the country from within, you're a yes-sayer until the penultimate chapter.

I was referring to treason as Marx would see it. Marx, being an almost literal knight in shining armor, probably has a very different view on what constitutes treason than Slime Monster!Garon does.

I cannot comment to much on the plan, since I don't speak Japanese and have to rely on second-hand summaries for any information. It involves a crystal ball and the throne of Hoshido, and that's pretty much all I know.

And yes, Garon does indeed need to be stopped, but saying that Marx and the other characters are "spineless cowards" for not committing treason is wrong. Was Camus a spineless coward for remaining loyal to Grust? Were the Wolfguard spineless cowards for remaining loyal to Hardin, even after he got pale skin and glowing red eyes (usually a sure sign that a guy's turned evil)? Was Selena a spineless coward for remaining loyal to Grado, despite she herself acknowledging that its actions were unjust? Were Ishtar and Reinhardt spineless cowards for continuing to fight for the Empire?

[Pepper]

Reminder that Sumia/Chrom pretty much dissapears (besides the infamous punch scene) after Sumia joins.

I'd actually argue Ninian/Eliwood was a bit more pushed, as it's there in steady amounts throughout a much larger part of the game.

Awakening Pushed both Sumia and Waifu Robin at Chrom, Sumia got pushed in the first few chapters but Robin and Chrom got pushed much harder later especially after chapter 8.

[Pepper]

I was looking at the IK supports with Aqua and Kamu and I saw how they've both been indoctrinated to drink the kool-aid of their adopted nations, both of them till A seem to be kinda in disbelief that they left both sides still trying to justify the actions of both Nohr and Hoshido to each other.

[B.Leu]

I was referring to treason as Marx would see it. Marx, being an almost literal knight in shining armor, probably has a very different view on what constitutes treason than Slime Monster!Garon does.

I cannot comment to much on the plan, since I don't speak Japanese and have to rely on second-hand summaries for any information. It involves a crystal ball and the throne of Hoshido, and that's pretty much all I know.

And yes, Garon does indeed need to be stopped, but saying that Marx and the other characters are "spineless cowards" for not committing treason is wrong. Was Camus a spineless coward for remaining loyal to Grust? Were the Wolfguard spineless cowards for remaining loyal to Hardin, even after he got pale skin and glowing red eyes (usually a sure sign that a guy's turned evil)? Was Selena a spineless coward for remaining loyal to Grado, despite she herself acknowledging that its actions were unjust? Were Ishtar and Reinhardt spineless cowards for continuing to fight for the Empire?

Spineless coward might not be the word for Camus and co, more like 'Very stupid, but tragic'.

You're comparing lot of one chapter time case, and an entire game case that is the main focus of the plot, it doesn't really compare, since you'll expect of quality and movement in this last one.

And yeah, in Conquest, everyone are cowards, but more importantly, they're very very dumb. That's saying something. :p

I was looking at the IK supports with Aqua and Kamu and I saw how they've both been indoctrinated to drink the kool-aid of their adopted nations, both of them till A seem to be kinda in disbelief that they left both sides still trying to justify the actions of both Nohr and Hoshido to each other.

And it's only on Kamui/Aqua ? How. Convenient. :p

Too bad it seem that both side apparently still continue in their BS even after joining you, thus destroying a perfect opportunity for good development.

Edited July 25, 2015 by B.Leu

[Abysswalker25]

Garon has probably inspired fear into the hearts of his children. At least, to a point where they are hesitant to stand against him openly right away because hes pretty crazy and might end up killing their friends or something to spite them, then try to have them executed. For all I know, they could have be all raised to follow Garon without striking back against him because they don't know how to do that unless they have proof that he is infact, a slime thing. They still subvert his orders if hes not around and they can get away with it but they don't openly stand against him for quite some time unless it is to help out Kamui or something. Only in the third path, when he legitimately becomes even -more- insane, do they decide enough is enough.

The way it ends up coming off is an abusive relationship, with the one/ones being abused making excuses for his actions. It doesn't seem logical, but unfortunately it really does happen in real life.

On a side note, it just shows you how both nations aren't too different in the end. They both kidnapped a royal child and they both brainwashed them into their way of thinking. Granted they really went for the obvious "Nohr is evil, Hoshido is super good" anyways.

[Skywolfe]

Garon has probably inspired fear into the hearts of his children. At least, to a point where they are hesitant to stand against him openly right away because hes pretty crazy and might end up killing their friends or something to spite them, then try to have them executed. For all I know, they could have be all raised to follow Garon without striking back against him because they don't know how to do that unless they have proof that he is infact, a slime thing. They still subvert his orders if hes not around and they can get away with it but they don't openly stand against him for quite some time unless it is to help out Kamui or something. Only in the third path, when he legitimately becomes even -more- insane, do they decide enough is enough.

The way it ends up coming off is an abusive relationship, with the one/ones being abused making excuses for his actions. It doesn't seem logical, but unfortunately it really does happen in real life.

On a side note, it just shows you how both nations aren't too different in the end. They both kidnapped a royal child and they both brainwashed them into their way of thinking. Granted they really went for the obvious "Nohr is evil, Hoshido is super good" anyways.

Speaking solely from experience, this was EXACTLY what I considered the relationship to be between the Nohrian siblings (mostly barring Elise due to her age and inexperience) and Garon to be like.

It's especially evident in Leon/Elise's B support rank, when Leon mentions to Elise how he used to be quite a gentle father, and Elise seems shocked that this is true. Considering Leon's age, and his fondness for his memories even though he admits the man from his childhood and the man Garon is now are two different people, I had no trouble at all seeing how it could be even worse for Camilla and for Marx as the eldest siblings. The "better" memories both taint their willingness to believe Garon is truly, through and through, an evil man (Marx suffers this the worst throughout Birthright and in the Invisible Kingdom), and the fear of him keeps them passive in his presence. (Camilla displays this best in the Invisible Kingdom, she's far more willing to be killed by Kamui in combat than she is to defy Garon outright despite her reservations.)

It's easy enough to call them cowards, or to claim them as stupid, but I see them more as broken than spineless or idiotic. The man they quietly defy is, for better or for worse, someone they believe to be their father. Yes, he's cruel, and outright evil in many respects, but that's not the man they see, and it's important to look at things through their eyes rather than our own. He was once a gentle man who cared about them, and those memories are what they cling to even if they admit that the man Garon is now is hardly anything like the one they remember. Add into the mix that they were raised from infancy to be obedient simply because of their culture and status, it's really not surprising they're so conflicted in their actions against Garon.

Of couse, having said all of this, I admit wholeheartedly that my own experience is colouring my view. I can see exactly where the Nohrian siblings are coming from, and I don't blame them in the least for having this problem. If anything, I actually like them more because it reflects exactly how I've seen and acted myself in the past. It's a chillingly accurate representation of how familial abuse is.

[Pepper]

Spineless coward might not be the word for Camus and co, more like 'Very stupid, but tragic'.

You're comparing lot of one chapter time case, and an entire game case that is the main focus of the plot, it doesn't really compare, since you'll expect of quality and movement in this last one.

And yeah, in Conquest, everyone are cowards, but more importantly, they're very very dumb. That's saying something. :p

And it's only on Kamui/Aqua ? How. Convenient. :p

Too bad it seem that both side apparently still continue in their BS even after joining you, thus destroying a perfect opportunity for good development.

I wish they actually called them out on their shit for basically brainwashing them till adulthood I wish the supports for your siblings for both Aqua and Kamui were different and reflected the pair's new identity of being themselves not being ether royalty and had your siblings both Nohr and Hoshido realizing how deeply messed up this political game was and how both kidnapped kids have deep identity issues and both parties really asking if their any better then what they accuse each other of being, Could of had great character development all around missed opportunity.

Garon has probably inspired fear into the hearts of his children. At least, to a point where they are hesitant to stand against him openly right away because hes pretty crazy and might end up killing their friends or something to spite them, then try to have them executed. For all I know, they could have be all raised to follow Garon without striking back against him because they don't know how to do that unless they have proof that he is infact, a slime thing. They still subvert his orders if hes not around and they can get away with it but they don't openly stand against him for quite some time unless it is to help out Kamui or something. Only in the third path, when he legitimately becomes even -more- insane, do they decide enough is enough.

The way it ends up coming off is an abusive relationship, with the one/ones being abused making excuses for his actions. It doesn't seem logical, but unfortunately it really does happen in real life.

On a side note, it just shows you how both nations aren't too different in the end. They both kidnapped a royal child and they both brainwashed them into their way of thinking. Granted they really went for the obvious "Nohr is evil, Hoshido is super good" anyways.

They both are scummy for what they did and the game still puts Hoshido is a good light when they pretty much don't share trade to Nohr and the shit they pulled on Aqua she is pretty brainwashed into thinking Nohr is evil when she herself was born there and there are people who want her dead in Hoshido.

[Abysswalker25]

Its uh, some Stockholm syndrome going on I think. They were both pretty young when they got kidnapped. Kamui has always thought of Garon as their dad and despite him being cruel, their 'siblings' have been kind to them, treating them like their own despite that and it gives them a reason to decide to pick Nohr, solely for their loved ones. From what I've seen on youtube, they are surprised to hear that they are from Hoshido originally as well. Aqua was raised differently, but no less manipulated. Due to their treatment of her, while kind it was more subtle. They treated her fairly from what I could tell and she actually ended up liking Hoshido because of it. However, it doesn't excuse the fact she was still kidnapped from her original family, nor does it excuse kidnapping Kamui from theirs. Both are jerks, Nohr is just more obvious about it, and both sides will more or less try to 'deal' with you (apparently if you side with Nohr, Hoshido cracks down on anyone with ties to that kingdom and Garon.. well, his favorite pasttime trying to kill Kamui.) despite raising the two characters as their own anyways.

Ultimately, they are pawns of both kingdoms. So, screw both Nohr and Hoshido and do the IK route. : ]