Anyone up for petitioning NoA for some minor gameplay changes?

[Mad_Scientist]

Without going into very many spoilers (especially as I am trying to purposefully avoid them myself), there are some aspects of Fates that I feel are held back by Japanese culture when it comes to a release in the West. I'm not saying one culture is better than the other, but I feel these two facts would not go over very well in the West (and I do think most here feel the same):

*Zero and Shara are the only same-sex options. There needs to be at least a few more. Seems a shame the only options are locked into each route (at one each) and happen to be rather psychotic characters. Not to knock on them, but why are the sole two options psychotic? I don't think it would be too hard to write up some of the S conversations and one would think they would just reuse the CGs from the opposite-sex scenes.

*Some of the skinship quotes. Namely, the S-rank ones. I love me some fanservice, but some of those go straight into super pervy territory. I mean, honestly, some of your siblings still call you "brother" or "sister" after you already marry them, not to mention a good deal of these quotes are really sexual. In fact, I think this will already be taken out of international releases, but you never know.

Good idea? Bad idea? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I just hope it isn't too late, which I think it might be.

I suspect that NoA will probably adjust the skinship quotes when localizing the game, no petition needed. Honestly, the S-Rank skinship quotes don't bother me. They're lewd, but they're also between characters who are married (and presumably having sex fairly regularly, judging by the children) and are being made in a private room. So I'm kind of meh on them.

Honestly, it's the whole skinship thing itself that I still find weird and more than a bit off-putting, but I doubt NoA is gonna rip out gameplay feature like that.

As for adding S rank supports, that's not actually a minor gameplay change. Because they'd have to write new story material to do it. This goes beyond what I typically see in localization. Now, what I would like to see (and what I think may have a higher chance of happening, though still a very low chance) is some free DLC that adds additional support related content, including more same sex S supports. This would presumably be made by the Japanese creators, and not the localization team, and would just be localized along with the rest of the content (and perhaps included automatically in the US version of the game depending on when it's made available in Japan.)

Still not likely to happen, but maybe if the same sex romances are popular enough in Japan they'll consider it.

If Wikipedia tells me the truth, then about 5% of the population is openly gay (responds as gay to surveys). That's 1 in 20 or 2 in 40, so the representation actually seems pretty accurate to me.

As for S rank supported characters saying pervy stuff when you start touching them, that also seems pretty legit to me. That's what married people do when they start rubbing each other's faces!

Actually, an accurate number on the percentage of gay/bi/lesbian people is really hard to come up with, and estimates varie. But regardless, it's irrelevant for this game. There is absolutely zero reason that a fictional game set in a fantasy world has to conform with estimated real world demographics about gay people.

As a little side note I've seen 1% of the population being not straight thrown around by anti-gay people, 15% thrown around a few times, 5% most commonly, and once a study that showed 20% (although in that one the scientists had a very broad definition of gay).

Yep.

Regarding same-sex pairings, yeah there should be more options than just the sociopaths, but if that's how it is in the JPN version, then that's how it should be in the western versions. I'm not a fan of gameplay/mechanic changes between different regions of the game.

Regarding the S-rank skinship lines, these will probably be toned down to some extent, but lets not act like these are anything shocking or overly vulgar. They aren't nearly as lewd as people are hyping them up to be. And the chances of this game being rated M because these is absolutely zero.

That's why I think the only chance of getting more same sex romances is if they're released as part of a DLC.

Almost as if sexuality is a spectrum and hard to define, wait...

(I know I'm preaching to the choir here. I'm just having some fun lol)

And as for comparing the population ratios, the only thing that matters when it comes to not going overboard. I think we all agree one option each is kinda too few, especially when they can still be romanced as the opposite sex

And guys, I know this is a long shot by any sense of the word, but I still find these facts to just be lame. Also, how may people are aware that Bravely Default was censored and rather heavily? Aged up the characters, modified some of the skimpier outfits and took out some of the pedo jokes (as in "Ha! Ha! That old man is saying pervy things to a 15 year old girl!" type of jokes).

Censorship and dialogue chances and even art/graphic changes are one thing, but how often has a localization of a game added brand new original content that was not at least present in some form (DLC, special edition, etc) in the Japanese version?

whether or not the statistics match real life doesn't really matter, these games focus on a (relatively) small group of people and take place in a pretty fantastical setting. More same-sex romances would be a good thing, and they'd hardly destroy the credibility of the setting where you are, y'know, also a dragon

I'd support any kind of letter or petition for that.

Definitely agree, but as I said I think this will only happen if its something that's added to all versions.

I say it's more equal, just different. They see it more as something you keep to yourself (but straight people can still totally be straight in public >.>). And it's a little hard to see them as being less opposed when even the U.S. has same-sex marriage everywhere now. They just have Shibuya for that, if I am not mistaken.

It's more complicated than just "worse, better, or equal." Both Japan and the US have their own issues with the treatment and depiction of gay people, their own problems. But one thing to note is that Japan doesn't have a strong presence of Christians who are offended by the very existence of gay people in media, and so Nintendo doesn't have to worry much about suddenly inciting tons of "think of the children!" anger if they happen to include more gay people. Or more bi people, to be precise.

I get that realism may not be a big factor to everyone, but I know it matters to some people and it matters quite a great deal to me. While what you said is true, its a fantasy game with dragons and magic, the characters (to my understanding) are still human and I find it considerably easier to accept them and become immersed in the story when they behave like humans. Now I do realize that such a small sample size would allow for quite a bit of variation from population norms, and I also understand that different societies might have varying levels of homosexuality based on culture (I have been led to believe that homosexuality was fairly prevalent in ancient Rome). But I think the cultures in the game is pretty are pretty clearly based on feudal Europe and Japan where I believe homosexuality was quite taboo.

I feel that for many people humans acting like humans is important in story telling. Otherwise, we could write off every preposterous thing that happens in any fantasy story as a result of the setting.

Adding a few gay supports wouldn't really bother me, I actually do like them, but adding a bunch would probably make me roll my eyes. I think its important though, that people consider that there isn't an inherent "good" to adding gay supports, it is subjective.

Many of the characters literally are descended from dragons, they aren't all human. Also, this argument really falls flat to me. Realistic human behavior is not the same thing as exactly conforming with estimated demographics on gay people. Realistic human behavior is those characters in the game, regardless of their orientation, acting, well, realistic. If a character is written to be incredibly shallow and unbelievable and behaves in absurd ways, the character being straight won't somehow add to the realism. If a character is well written and behaves in nuanced and interesting ways, the character also being gay won't somehow make them unrealistic.

Also, homosexuality wasn't as taboo in ancient Japan as you think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan#Ancient_Japan

Nor was it in Rome, though both cultures had some odd quirks related to what type of homosexual relationships were and weren't acceptable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome

But the fact is, neither Hoshido nor Nohr are real life cultures, and the depiction and attitudes regarding homosexuality throughout the world and history is so varied, that there is absolutely nothing "unrealistic" about a culture with a vaguely medieval level of technology having accepting attitudes about it. I mean, do we cry and scream about how unrealistic it is that there are so many women characters, women who serve in the military, and that there isn't rampant sexism oppressing them and relegating them to second class citizens at best?

And as for eye rolling, what's eye rolling to me is the fact that literally every single character of the opposite sex who is not also Kamui's child who joins the party can fall in love with Kamui. I mean, really? There's not a SINGLE person in the army that says, "you know, I'm just not interested"? Considering that, they could make half the cast bi, and I wouldn't find it any more eye rolling or unbelievable.

[raazychx]

I don't want them to censor the game. It should be left as is.

Americans are too sensitive.

[Beddict]

I'm all for more same-sex marriages, I just can't see it happening in Fates unless it's DLC. They'd have to write multiple new supports, code it into the game, possibly translate it if the Japanese writers are doing the writing, and if not they'd still have to go over everything with IS. Just a few supports could still equal a lot of work. By all means, chuck more into FE15 when it releases, but I doubt it will happen for Fates.

As for skinship, no point in changing it. It would either come out as horribly awkward or just removed entirely which is a waste of the work the developers did. The lewd lines are between married couples so I can't see why it's a big deal.

[Sunfall]

This petition is just absurd.

You are honestly expecting Nintendo to spend even more time on localization just to include a few more same-sex support options exclusively for western releases? For something that comprises a very minute portion of the game that everyone is blowing out of proportion?

Not that I'm against gay marriage or anything, but the way people talk about these same-sex supports makes you think their exclusion would be a grand dealbreaker to what has shaped up to be one of the most amazing Fire Emblems to date.

[georgetruman]

Many of the characters literally are descended from dragons, they aren't all human. Also, this argument really falls flat to me. Realistic human behavior is not the same thing as exactly conforming with estimated demographics on gay people. Realistic human behavior is those characters in the game, regardless of their orientation, acting, well, realistic. If a character is written to be incredibly shallow and unbelievable and behaves in absurd ways, the character being straight won't somehow add to the realism. If a character is well written and behaves in nuanced and interesting ways, the character also being gay won't somehow make them unrealistic.

Also, homosexuality wasn't as taboo in ancient Japan as you think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan#Ancient_Japan

Nor was it in Rome, though both cultures had some odd quirks related to what type of homosexual relationships were and weren't acceptable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome

But the fact is, neither Hoshido nor Nohr are real life cultures, and the depiction and attitudes regarding homosexuality throughout the world and history is so varied, that there is absolutely nothing "unrealistic" about a culture with a vaguely medieval level of technology having accepting attitudes about it. I mean, do we cry and scream about how unrealistic it is that there are so many women characters, women who serve in the military, and that there isn't rampant sexism oppressing them and relegating them to second class citizens at best?

And as for eye rolling, what's eye rolling to me is the fact that literally every single character of the opposite sex who is not also Kamui's child who joins the party can fall in love with Kamui. I mean, really? There's not a SINGLE person in the army that says, "you know, I'm just not interested"? Considering that, they could make half the cast bi, and I wouldn't find it any more eye rolling or unbelievable.

I guess I chose my words poorly. I shouldn't have said "humans acting like humans". What I was really trying to get at was that for some people, traits other than just characters' personalities matter when creating a believable scenario. I think an over abundance of gay characters is unrealistic and contrived. I think the abundance of female warriors is also unrealistic and contrived. I think that the children fighters are unrealistic and contrived. If the game were catered towards myself, the majority of the army would resemble Benoit. I understand that my tastes are in the minority, but I believe that my desire for the game world to be 'realistic' is just as legitimate as someone else's desire for romances that they can relate to. It's just a matter of personal preference.

I think there are quite a few 'eye rolling' aspects of the game. I think Camilla's outfit is eye rolling, I think the fact that characters are able to fall in love with such a giant array of people is eye rolling, I think Cyrus' hairdo is eye rolling, and I find quite a few other things silly too. Do I find these things detract from my enjoyment? Absolutely I would love if those things were toned down. Is it going to stop me from buying the game and probably enjoying it quite a bit? Absolutely not!

Also I was completely wrong about Medieval cultures being almost universally against homosexuality. If ole wikipedia speaks the truth, then there more cultures than I would have guessed that, while not necessarily celebrating homosexuality, tolerated it. Poland being a good example of a European country that never outlawed homosexuality.

Edited June 28, 2015 by georgetruman

[raazychx]

This petition is just absurd.

You are honestly expecting Nintendo to spend even more time on localization just to include a few more same-sex support options exclusively for western releases? For something that comprises a very minute portion of the game that everyone is blowing out of proportion?

Not that I'm against gay marriage or anything, but the way people talk about these same-sex supports makes you think their exclusion would be a grand dealbreaker to what has shaped up to be one of the most amazing Fire Emblems to date.

Agreed. This game looks absolutely astounding. I'm even getting a Japanese 3DS and downloading the games just to try it. (It's not as expensive as it sounds, I've got an extra 3DS sitting around.)

... I'm gay, by the way, and I'm happy enough that for the first time, there is an option for a gay pairing. I think that I'll still play as a female, though. Silas is cuter than Zero, in my opinion.

I would rather people appreciate what they have than go off and complain that there aren't enough options. I wouldn't be surprised if, during localization, Zero's character were changed quite drastically, so as to not risk any ire from fans.

[Nidna]

I'm not saying one culture is better than the other

No, that's pretty much exactly what you're saying. You want more pandering to your particular lifestyle, yet want options that pander to a crowd you're not a part of removed.

This petition is just absurd.

You are honestly expecting Nintendo to spend even more time on localization just to include a few more same-sex support options exclusively for western releases? For something that comprises a very minute portion of the game that everyone is blowing out of proportion?

Not that I'm against gay marriage or anything, but the way people talk about these same-sex supports makes you think their exclusion would be a grand dealbreaker to what has shaped up to be one of the most amazing Fire Emblems to date.

I've seen people saying that this "redeems the game for them", like they weren't going to buy it, but this minute little detail that spans a few minutes worth of conversations between characters is making them purchase now. That's also how the media is acting, celebrating it as a "victory for the LGBT community", as if places like tumblr complaining about the lack of it in Awakening had actually shaped the decision at all. It's a Japanese series that recently went the blatant fanservice route, naturally it's going to include yuri and yaoi at some point. That's also why the gay characters in question are "sadistic" or twisted, stuff like that is pretty fetishized in entertainment mediums aimed at otaku. Very little discussion from "professionals" surrounding the game up until the last 12 hours before release when gay marriage was revealed, then all of the sudden dozens of articles simultaneously posted celebrating (while bemoaning the "lack of options" because simply being satisfied with their supposed victory is too sensible) and continue to do so now.

I'm bisexual, I'm far from a "bigot", but I really dislike the fact that the game will probably be remembered the most as "the one that included gay marriage" rather than "the one that fixed just about everything wrong with Awakening, had one of the best soundtracks in the series, returned actual online multiplayer", etc.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Nidna

[Twylis]

I'm not sure how reasonable it is to expect the localisation team to write a bunch of support conversations from scratch.

​

​And I personally think the sociopath thing was largely coincidence; Nohr is filled with characters like that, and Tharja had already established herself as blatantly bi so she seemed like a pretty obvious choice. I stated in the other thread on this as well, I don't think that IntSys just arbitrarily chose which characters to make bi without any forethought; they likely checked which characters had the most positive responses from gay members of the game's focus groups and went from there.

​

​The version-exclusivity, to me, is much dumber - but it does seem fairly common for people to do one run as male and one run as female anyway, and doing a different route is a good opportunity for that.

No idea what the best course of action would be with the face-rubbing junk though

Like geeeeez those are gonna be cringe-inducing, especially if the voice acting isn't the toppest of notches

[Camilla]

At least you got any gay pairings at all.

One step at a time.

[xaszatm]

Honestly, some of these characters are so blatantly bisexual (i.e. Camilla) that I'm surprised that she doesn't have same-sex S supports so I would like to see more. That being said, have we really not learned our lesson from Tomadachi Life? There's a limit on how much a localization team can cover by themselves. Would I like more? Yes! But companies, and especially century-old companies like Nintendo moves at a snails pace. The fact that LGB couples exist at all is a miracle in it of itself.

[FutureKnightX]

I love how this thread devolved into "be grateful for anything at all!" and "you're such a prude for asking them to take out lines that make it sound like you're having sex with your sister!" 9at least make it so Camilla and the rest don't make the incest stuff so "incesty"). And I thought this was going well at first. At least stuff like "censorship" and "difficulty making more options" are actual arguments and not character attacks on someone you don't even know.

Look, I'm all for "one step at a time", but it would be nice to try and take another step at some point, yeah? It's highly unlikely it will be so soon, but hey, "you fail at anything you don't even try at" and all that. Most can agree (and think have) that while this is a good first step, this isn't the final one. In any future game they make where "romance simulator" is a part of it, there needs to be more than one option each when it comes to same-sex. I really hope this is just Nintendo testing the waters and seeing how people react before implementing more, I really do, but this is also the same company that never even thought of including same-sex options in Tamodachi Life when they really, really should have. I hope they get the message of "Good job, Nintendo! Now do more and come into the 21st century with the rest of us!"

I suspect that NoA will probably adjust the skinship quotes when localizing the game, no petition needed. Honestly, the S-Rank skinship quotes don't bother me. They're lewd, but they're also between characters who are married (and presumably having sex fairly regularly, judging by the children) and are being made in a private room. So I'm kind of meh on them.

Honestly, it's the whole skinship thing itself that I still find weird and more than a bit off-putting, but I doubt NoA is gonna rip out gameplay feature like that.

As for adding S rank supports, that's not actually a minor gameplay change. Because they'd have to write new story material to do it. This goes beyond what I typically see in localization. Now, what I would like to see (and what I think may have a higher chance of happening, though still a very low chance) is some free DLC that adds additional support related content, including more same sex S supports. This would presumably be made by the Japanese creators, and not the localization team, and would just be localized along with the rest of the content (and perhaps included automatically in the US version of the game depending on when it's made available in Japan.)

Still not likely to happen, but maybe if the same sex romances are popular enough in Japan they'll consider it.

Actually, an accurate number on the percentage of gay/bi/lesbian people is really hard to come up with, and estimates varie. But regardless, it's irrelevant for this game. There is absolutely zero reason that a fictional game set in a fantasy world has to conform with estimated real world demographics about gay people.

Yep.

That's why I think the only chance of getting more same sex romances is if they're released as part of a DLC.

Censorship and dialogue chances and even art/graphic changes are one thing, but how often has a localization of a game added brand new original content that was not at least present in some form (DLC, special edition, etc) in the Japanese version?

Definitely agree, but as I said I think this will only happen if its something that's added to all versions.

It's more complicated than just "worse, better, or equal." Both Japan and the US have their own issues with the treatment and depiction of gay people, their own problems. But one thing to note is that Japan doesn't have a strong presence of Christians who are offended by the very existence of gay people in media, and so Nintendo doesn't have to worry much about suddenly inciting tons of "think of the children!" anger if they happen to include more gay people. Or more bi people, to be precise.

Many of the characters literally are descended from dragons, they aren't all human. Also, this argument really falls flat to me. Realistic human behavior is not the same thing as exactly conforming with estimated demographics on gay people. Realistic human behavior is those characters in the game, regardless of their orientation, acting, well, realistic. If a character is written to be incredibly shallow and unbelievable and behaves in absurd ways, the character being straight won't somehow add to the realism. If a character is well written and behaves in nuanced and interesting ways, the character also being gay won't somehow make them unrealistic.

Also, homosexuality wasn't as taboo in ancient Japan as you think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan#Ancient_Japan

Nor was it in Rome, though both cultures had some odd quirks related to what type of homosexual relationships were and weren't acceptable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome

But the fact is, neither Hoshido nor Nohr are real life cultures, and the depiction and attitudes regarding homosexuality throughout the world and history is so varied, that there is absolutely nothing "unrealistic" about a culture with a vaguely medieval level of technology having accepting attitudes about it. I mean, do we cry and scream about how unrealistic it is that there are so many women characters, women who serve in the military, and that there isn't rampant sexism oppressing them and relegating them to second class citizens at best?

And as for eye rolling, what's eye rolling to me is the fact that literally every single character of the opposite sex who is not also Kamui's child who joins the party can fall in love with Kamui. I mean, really? There's not a SINGLE person in the army that says, "you know, I'm just not interested"? Considering that, they could make half the cast bi, and I wouldn't find it any more eye rolling or unbelievable.

I love, like, all of this, I really do. Lots of good points. But gotta correct you on the "localizations never really added anything not in the original". I get you mentioned that you weren't aware of any and acknowledged the fact that it was possibly incorrect. I just wanna say some stuff against that one point, but totally agree on the rest. I can think of two examples off the top of my head. Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World actually did this twice. Once for the NA version and again for the EU version (the updated re-release on the PS3 made the updates available to all regions, however). I believe the changes were slight bonuses to your file if the game detected Tales of Symphonia data for NA and a few attachments for Emil and Marta for the EU version.

And another actually occurred last year. A feature in Akiba's Trip had CG images for key points in the game. The NA game actually added some. You see, in this game, combat is done by everybody trying to strip each other (most people doing this are vampires and it all makes sense in context...kinda. It's all really tongue-in-cheek, though) and this game happens to celebrate your victory over a boss with a CG image of their clothes getting ripped off (yeah...). The game has 12 bosses. 6 male and 6 female. The JP version didn't have CG images for the male ones, just the female ones. They added the male ones for international release. One could imagine that they figured their JP audience wouldn't be able to fathom a buff guy getting stripped down to his briefs in a game that is basically super cheeky fanservice for everyone (you can even cross-dress! Both ways!), but figured their NA audience would like it. (And how is that argument that I'm too prudish coming along, folks?)

Sorry for rambling a bit there, but it was just nice to see a game do fanservice correctly. Too often it's been mostly catering to straight males with a few bones being thrown to straight females by just making a few of the males "pretty" when they could really easily do more and irritate a lot less people. But then again, this is really only a problem in Japanese games that do fanservice nowadays.

[puddingmonster]

As a homosexual person, I don't find the need to add more same-sex supports. I mean, of course it would be better. I'd do anything to be able to marry Flannel or Silas as a M!Kamui, but the thing is I'm just grateful that I am getting at least a choice to be gay. People need to be patient and realize that Nintendo is willing to do it now, and let's just wait and see their direction in the future. Baby steps people! And remember, love wins (I just got to put it in there).

And Zero and not!Tharja are not much of terrible choices as well. I think people are just thinking too much when they are complaining the fact that both of the gay options are people that can be seen as psychotic. I mean, they probably aren't your type, but that's just life. Not everyone is going to be able to return the favour of your undying and eternal love and affections. I'd say just be patient and hope for the best for FE15.

[Nébulya]

The first thing, I don't care. I'm not gay. But even in general, it would mean a lot of changes to conversation, so one in each path is enough. That's working for nothing, because that's just a game. :)

And finally, why changing things? I don't care, that's how the game has been made, and I don't want it to change. I'm from Belgium, and I hope the changes won't be too consequent.

[The Geek]

Now that I think about it, there are some pretty major changes that have been made to games in the localization process.

For instance, when bringing the Crash Bandicoot games to Japan, they had to change his smile from open mouth to closed mouth (showing your teeth is a sign of aggression in Japan I believe, at the very least it's considered rude) which would involve changing his character model.

Though in this case I honestly doubt we'll get anything to happen. Maybe it'll be like Bravely Default or the first generation Pokemon games where an updated version comes out and we get that, but other than that I doubt it.

[The Geek]

Crap, server bugged out and caused me to double post.

Edited June 28, 2015 by The Geek

[nocturnal YL]

@FutureKnightX

I'm not for or against this petition (I play games to have fun, not bring up serious discussions), but in case you need some arguments for localisations changing a game's contents, Radiant Dawn did that. Those additions show that text isn't the only thing that can change. They've got new weapons (thus new graphics and models), 16:9 screen ratio (extra coding and testing efforts, and extra graphics) and new base conversations (story change).

They also have half-width font and character width detection as opposed to relying on full-width characters and use a strict character count for character and weapon names in the DS games (all regions) and Awakening (overseas only). Other Nintendo-published titles like the third Golden Sun did that too.

So yeah, a game's source can change. And there is one more coming up: Odin's personal skill that involves naming weapons with 8 kanji characters.

[ZaHiro86]

People like OP are why I learned Japanese, so I can avoid moral panic and censorship

[JXA]

i would prefer to play the game without any cut contet, i don't want a half ass product just because some people get uncomfortable by something optional, this is why the Region locking is a problem

[FluffyWarlock]

Mind you, homosexuality is still not very accepted in Japan, from what I've heard. Hence why there's only two options.