Fates Lore Speculation (Major Spoilers)

[Lhyonnaes]

Greetings, everyone!

In the past couple days, I've been doing some lore speculation based on what I currently know about Fates (which has expanded a bit over the days, but the earlier posts still stand). I've posted some of this up over on reddit and over on tumblr, but I figure that it would be a good idea to put in some links here on SF, as well.

NOTE THAT YOU SHOULD ASSUME MAJOR FATES SPOILERS IN ALL OF THESE LINKS

Post 1: The Implications of Dragon's Vein (Preliminary Ideas)

Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/3b6j55/history_of_the_emblem_tinfoil_hat_edition_the/

Tumblr: http://lhyonnaes.tumblr.com/post/122544095789/history-of-the-emblem-tinfoil-hat-edition-the

Post 2: Team Ylisse World Police

Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/3bhvdt/team_ylisse_world_police_more_fates_lore/

Tumblr: http://lhyonnaes.tumblr.com/post/122584911304/team-ylisse-world-police-more-fates-lore

Post 3: On the Children of Dragons

Tumblr: http://lhyonnaes.tumblr.com/post/122757914359/on-the-children-of-dragons-even-more-fates-lore

Post 4: The Misused Gift

Tumblr: http://lhyonnaes.tumblr.com/post/122795599519/the-misused-gift-fates-lore-speculation-again

(If it would be more proper for me to post these up as inidivual posts and not links, I would be happy to - I just thought it would be more compact to post things up in this way)

Feel free to post up any questions, comments, or criticisms that you might have. Always happy to discuss my theories.

[CocoaGalaxy]

Bit of a long post you have there. It is just

"Dragons are magical, so those with some Dragon Blood (I.E. the Royals) have some special powers"

Everything does seem more or less so though, not much to say

[Lhyonnaes]

Well, it's a bit more complicated than that. "Dragons are magical, people with dragon blood do cool stuff," while true, isn't really productive when trying to understand more about the way the world works.

[VincentASM]

Something that caught my eye.

[spoiler=The dragons of Fate]I believe "Toryumaru" doesn't exist and is simply a mistranslation of Invisible Demon Dragon. AKA Hydra.

Also, Hydra and Anankos are the same thing. Except one name is from the Japanese version and the other from the English version. Like Macbeth and Iago.

BTW, if you haven't seen this, you might like it.

[JupiterKnight]

Dark Water Star Dragon doesn't work. The part about him being a Water Dragon made it clear it is neither White (Light/Hoshido) or Black (Dark/Nohr).

Anankos being mistaken for a different guy was due to Garon seeking consul with it, which the characters themselves assumed was the Dark Dragon of Nohr. But since Garon was replaced with a Water Familiar it was actually a monster seeking advice form its master.

Odin also isn't entirely sure if it's the past or not as well, because his supports with other characters besides his daughter he mentions other worlds that they came from.

Edit: Dang VincentASM you beat me to it and even posted a link to what I was talking about. Although now that I'm rereading it it does makes me wonder if the Dragons are the ones who reside in the Invisible Kingdom. After all they became spirits and hid themselves. What better place to live than an Invisible Nation no one knows about?

Edited June 29, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Lhyonnaes]

Interesting. Good information there. Thanks.

1) I was mostly kidding about the whole Dark Water Star Dragon thing. He's neither dark nor light, yes, but he's still pretty sinister.

2) I've still seen some evidence in favor of there being two different "aspects" to the Big Bad dragon, an actual separation between light and dark. Something with masks in the third route. We'll see if it comes together or doesn't - but ultimately, if there's not two aspects, it doesn't really matter. That's just a sort of side point that doesn't actually matter for any of my theories.

3) We've got more supports which point towards us clearly being in the past - I believe Not! Tharja says something to that effect.

4) With regards to that linked information, there does seem to be some sort of Ending Winter-style event - but the dragons ditched their bodies and became spirits, instead of being manaketes. Interesting. Not sure how to reconcile that with the fact that Corrin doesn't seem to be feeling any ill effects for most of his life as he stands around as a non-manakete dragon, and the fact that the land seems to have more magical resonance than it does in other settings.

EDIT: I do think that the last boss of the Third Path isn't the same as the last boss of the Hoshido Path, though, but you're saying that they should be the same dragon. Is dragon-ified Garon perhaps not the full manifestation of Hydra/Anakanos?

Edited June 29, 2015 by Lhyonnaes

[JupiterKnight]

One of the screenshots for the third route shows his "Spirit" or Invisible Form, which is indeed a Light/Dark Masks. Or Purple and Yellow in this case since that's the colors used for them.

Technically Kamui nearly gave in to his instincts in said chapter where Aqua calms him down, but he was able to revert back. Being half-dragon probably means his instincts are less likely to take over, but if he transforms while really angry or sad it happens instantly.

The monster Garon (Water Familiar) is hinted to be Garon in both paths and at this point we don't know for sure. At the least he appears to be harnessing the power of the Dark Dragon of Nohr for its own purpose rather than the Dragon being an aspect of Hydra/Anankos. We'll need more information to know what that form is.

The family assumed Anankos and the Dark Dragon were the same because they've likely never heard the dragons name before, but its likely the Dark Dragon is a different entity.

Edited June 29, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Lhyonnaes]

About those masks, are there any indication that they're different beings, or just that the one being is a pair of masks? I think that was the point where there might have been some confusion. Especially because there does seem to be a Dragon of Nohr and Dragon of Hoshido, separate from Hydra.

The deal with Corrin in chapter 5 isn't really related, I don't think. The description there seems suspiciously similar to the dragonic degeneration that precluded the Dragon War in Archanea, but the dragons here responded by discarding their bodies rather than living as manaketes. Corrin's probably experiencing temporary crazyness due to trauma and the unfamiliar surge of draconic energy that comes with the first transformation, not degeneration.

Garon is probably the same on both paths, yes - It doesn't really make too much sense otherwise. I'm eager to learn more information about that transformation, though, because we're missing an important piece of the puzzle there. Garon is a creation of Hydra, but he's also able to channel energy from ou nameless Nohr black dragon...

There's less Invisible Kingdom involvement in the Hoshido route, from what little I saw, so maybe the Hoshido route transformation is an attempt to sort of keep up the charade. Goop Garon doesn't go all goopy, he channels partial draconic energy (in line with what could be expected), etc etc. Dunno why exactly that same charade wouldn't be kept up in the Nohr route, though, and that's just a consequence of lack of information.

[CocoaGalaxy]

A new idea that I thought of might be the location, perhaps the location of Nohr's Capital and Hoshido's Capital might influence Garon's ability to transform and/or maintain his "human form"?

Aside from that, assuming I have time for it, I guess I'll note down which chapters have the Invisible Soldiers when going through the chapter information.

It'll be bare bones though.

[JupiterKnight]

I know there's artwork of the Dark mask, but I don't know if there's one for the Light. Could be they are part of the same unit anyways so they didn't make one for the Light Mask.

Edited June 29, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Lhyonnaes]

@ Cocoa: Could bee. That would seem to imply that he's more of a creation of the "Dark" part of Hydra than the "Light" part, though, if he can't keep the human form disguise in Hoshido, which would in turn point more towards two aspects of Hydra. Not sure if that's still a conceivable outcome.

@ JupiterKnight: Yeah, they could certanly be the same unit. That's fair.

Another thought, based on linked information - "The dragon that was neither white nor black conveyed three prophecies in a song in order to be killed by someone." Song certainly makes me think of Azura, though I also think it's odd that Hydra would have created her if he's currently in the whole human hating business. And does this imply that his own future that he saw was unavoidable? Our information here is just too limited, and what we know doesn't add up.

[JupiterKnight]

Hydra can see the future so it's not too far fetched he could see himself going crazy and try to subvert it to some degree.

Also I checked the Japanese filename the Dragon Garon becomes is the Dark Night Dragon. So it is the Dragon of Nohr rather than Hydra.

This links to the pics of the Dark Mask, The Invisible Dragons symbol, and Golem.

http://imgur.com/a/AEMmo

[Lhyonnaes]

Well, yes. it's just a sort of odd situation - if Hydra can see the future, and if Hydra hates humanity for their missuse of his gift, then why doesn't he just not give them the gift in the first place? Was it too late? The linked text seems to imply that the prophecy occured before humans rose to prominence. Can he not change the future that he sees, and can only try to make preparations for subverting it later? Doesn't that sort of go against the whole "the future is not written" message from Awakening? End result, I'd like more information.

Thanks for checking the Japanese, though. It's still a bit confusing, wondering how the Nohr dragon is related to Hydra, but it's good to know that that's what's up, for sure. Something else to note - the glowing red thing in Dragon!Garon's head is very similar to what is in Goop!Garon's chest. Not terribly surprising, but good to know - perhaps Garon's transformation to a dragon isn't drawing on a specific dragon itself, but drawing on generalized draconic power to become the "Dark Night Dragon", and there isn't actually a real Dragon of Nohr in the first place?

Also, do we know what role the Golem plays, beyond being what seems to be a powerful animated servant of the Invisible Kingdom?

[JupiterKnight]

Well there had to be a real dragon as those links mentioned. People sided with different dragons in those dragon wars, and were rewarded land and became the Royal Families. The safest bet is that Garon had something connected to Nohr's Dark Dragon which the Water Familiar is now using, but this is purely speculation at this point. It's sorta hinted this might be the case because the red eye on the Dark Dragon is also found in Slime Garon's chest.

Also you might want to take into fact that at this point in time it's suggested Hydra is insane, so they might not even be abusing its gifts but thinks they are. Just like Kamui betrayed him by surviving the Hooded Man's assassination attempt.

Here's the pic with the Light Mask.

http://imgur.com/cnRxlud

The Golem is just a monster like the Faceless. I just wanted to post his face.

Edited June 30, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Lhyonnaes]

Well... maybe. I'm not sure if we can treat those nebulous accounts of the past as 100% true. People fought with dragons, we can be pretty sure about it. But we're to believe that there are still sort of guardian dragons for the Nohr and Hoshido noble houses, and they happen to be largely unrelated from Hydra while still mirroring the light vs dark dichotomy, and their power can be channeled by an artificial creation of Hydra's?

That seems a bit of a strech to me.

The deal with the big red eye thing seems to me an indication that Goop Garon -> Dragon Garon is a bit less of a literal transformation than we're lead to believe. It seems to me an indication that he's not so much summoning up or transforming into a previously-existing Nohr dragon, but invoking his own power (or Hydra's power, as the case may be) to transfigure himself. It's a bit of a subtle distinction, but it I think it's a notable one.

As for Hydra's level of sanity, the sort of mythologized narration implies that he's a "monster" now, but this does not imply total insantiy. Certainly, he's not full degraded, though it's possible that, like Loptyr, he might be... a little be derranged.

It's interesting that you bring up Corrin's survival of the assassination attempt, because I think that it's actually a very similar situation - it seems to me like Corrin's "purpose" was always to be a tool of Hydra's. By refusing to die in accordance to Hydra's plans, Corrin did, if you apply a bit of twisted logic - indeed betray Hydra, albiet unintentionally, by going against the direct will of a being who probably considers itself his "master". It could be very well the same with Hydra's gift (which I still think is more likely to be Dragon's Vein than anything) - Hydra wanted them to use it to do x, they did y with it instead, and now he's mad. But all that implies that he did not necessarily have a perfect vision of the future. Perhaps he bestowed the Dragon's Vein to humans knowing that they would need to use it to rule effectively without his guidance (and indeed, maybe even need it to combat the monster that he would become), and their use of it as another tool for warfare is what enrages him.

Which would mean that, somewhat ironically, the gift would be used for its original purpose in the Third Route, when Corrin unites the royal families and they fulfill Hydra's original and sane wishes. I kind of like that interpretation.

The other possible interpretation for the gift would be the songs that Hydra created, though... that seems a little less likely to me, and certainly has less meta-plot resonance. And even with twisted evil logic, it would be hard to blame humans for ingratitude regarding them before they ever become relevant.

(And with regards to Golem dude, that's what I had thought. Just making sure there wasn't anything I didn't know).

[JupiterKnight]

Not really. Hydra is a dragon that's greater than them as a being that is neither Black nor White. That's why his symbol is a half white dragon and a half black dragon or why Kamui can use Dark and White Blood on the third route. Showing how both Hydra and its progeny can harness the powers of both and not just one, along with their own water powers.

It should be obvious that those bits should be taken as fact, because they even explain the origins of Kamui and all the Nohr/Hoshido siblings besides Aqua and that Hydra came to Mikoto.

The Water Familiar is not a dragon, which is the point of his Class name in Nohr. The Dark Night Dragon likely did exist at one point. Here are the two filenames: 暗夜竜_st_笑 and MJID_INTRO_暗夜竜: Dark Dragon. Dark Night (Anya) is the Japanese name for Nohr.

The eye thing gives credence to it likely being the Dragon because after you do enough damage to Hydra/Anankos all that's left is the eye he holds in his mouth and you have to defeat the eye. Just like Dark Night Dragon has only eye.

http://imgur.com/MhaqDmD

Edited June 30, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Lhyonnaes]

I'm not questioning the truth of those descriptions, but only questioning what solid conclusions we can draw from them about old times. They're quite vague on what precisely happened, and could be leaving out significant details - they're a good source for Hydra's initial prophecy and the relations of the siblings, but as a historical document describing those ancient wars, they're pretty crappy. If we care about the details of those wars, the info that we current have is... poor.

I don't doub that Nohr and Hoshido, at one point, had draconic allies. If they are still around, though, they're certainly pawns of Hydra... but if they're pawns of Hydra, this implies that they're still roughly sane and intelligent, and that in turns implies that they gave up their bodies and begame spirits. Or I suppse they could be chilling in alternate dimension land ready to whip up a body when needed.... regardless, with Goop Garon, I fully acknowledge that he's not a dragon. However, he is a creation of a dragon, and could probably be imbued with direct draconic power and transform himself. Certainly, even if there is a Nohr dragon, there's going to need to be some extra power floating around for that dragon to manufacture a body on short notice. And after we kill the dragon, it turns back in Garon. To me, this implies that it's a temporary transformation. Perhaps Garon could be tapping into a Nohrian dragon spirit for this transformation, but I'm not sure as to how the mechanics of that would work. He'd have to make contact with the spirit, channel energy, and construct a body for them to share, with the spirit being banished again after the dragon is defeated. Ultimately, if he's just getting power anways (and he certainly needs to), not sure if the spirit is necessary to that equation.

The detail about the symbolism of the single eye is useful, though. Thanks for that.

EDIT: I've now heard elsewhere that Azura is the daughter of that Nohr dragon, which as of yet still lacks a name. Which would seem to invalidate this most recent line of thought of mine.

SECOND EDIT: From the 3rd Path Azura x Corrin A Support: "In the ages of old… a god bestowed the people with power, as long as those people continued to devote their faith to him… Breaking the trust that this beneficial relationship would continue eons into the future was the humans. As the humans’ lust for power grew, they discarded their devotion, and a peaceful world was created only for mankind. Seeing the wretched humans who had forsaken their faith to him, the god’s body trembled in rage and went berserk…"

That... looks awfully like confirmation that Hydra's gift was Dragon's Vein.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Lhyonnaes