"The Light That Shines in the Dark" - Nohr Story Discussion

[astrophys]

I honestly expected that some of the paths' stories would be problematic.

I mean, SMT also seems to have this problem, with Law and Chaos pretty frequently being pretty clearly worse off than Neutral. Law and Chaos often feel that they go off the crazy deep end and involve stupid or petty or overly extremist evil.

Granted, SMT contains all of the routes in one game, but in fairness to FE: IF, their branching points happen FAR later in the game, typically towards the endgame, whereas IF branches early in the game instead.

Basically, I kind of saw issues like this occurring.

I'm still looking forward to the games for their gameplay merits, the real reasons that I play them. I mean, I wouldn't have played Awakening nine times if I was doing it just for the story. And from all reports I'm hearing it seems like gameplay wise Fates is shaping up to what likely will be a get game, SRPG-gameplay wise, better than Awakening, even if the individual stories or the lack of details in other routes are legitimate issues (as largely, we can separate the gameplay from the story, seeing that the story largely provides an excuse or pretext for the gameplay).

Of course, I like doing character supports, as well…. most of them I've been looking at on paste bin have seemed okay, although I'm uneasy (understatement) about that Kamui x Soleil one. But even Awakening had a few ones that I was uneasy with (Nah x Inigo, for example). I'll just make a point of ignoring that support if it really turns out that bad in localization or skipping it with the start button or something.

[Auro Astum]

Well that kinda sucks. I was supremely hyped for the Nohr route. I'm still going to play all three routes once it hits here but dang. Hype balloon has been popped.

[Sky Soldier]

A couple of things:

1) It is my understanding that the war between Nohr and Hoshido had been going on for some time like one of those old-fashioned European "Thirty Years War," "Hundred Years War" type deals. It probably couldn't have been something that would have been stopped by mere words since each populace would have strong opinions about the other country.

2) Aqua's plan seems to be the only way the writers could come up with to work in a climactic showdown against your Hoshido siblings. But, my interpretation was that they 'needed' to have Garon use the throne or otherwise have him near the Hoshido dragon of light's power in order to expose/destroy him. They used the invasion as an excuse (since the royal family of Nohr would otherwise never be able to go near the capital), but the Hoshido siblings never got an opportunity to hear their explanation, they just saw them as an invading force until Kamui and the others have the chance to explain things to them.

3) Where did that Sakura/faceless rumor start then? I was seriously believing that for a long time and thought the rest of the story would match that level of intensity/choice.

4) Can someone explain Ch. 18 then to me? The one protect chapter where you and your Nohrian forces protect your Hoshido siblings from Garon's troops? I thought that would be the point that you and your siblings decide to strike against Garon? From what I understand of the conversations between the Hoshido and Nohr siblings during your battle royale with them (Ch. 22 - 25), it is apparent that the Nohr siblings know that they are rebelling against Garon and are trying to keep all casualties to a minimum, but that Garon catches on and starts monitoring their plans personally, screwing things over?

Edited July 1, 2015 by Sky Soldier

[JupiterKnight]

Anankos can control people's hearts. So controlling the hatred in Takumi's heart would be something he could do even if Takumi's soul had already passed on. Something I've seen in some animes about how the body remembers even if the soul/heart is gone.

Edited July 1, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Thane]

Guys, don't talk about the third path without spoiler quoations. A lot of us have been spoiled far more than we would have liked due to such negligence. The same goes for Hoshido spoilers; this is just to discuss the Nohr path, which we can do openly due to both the thread tag and my warning in the original post.

Don't talk about the third path at all, if you can avoid it.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Thane

[Sky Soldier]

Don't talk about the third path at all, if you can avoid it.

Just want to clarify if this was directed at me. I don't think anything I posted is from the third path since I am trying like hell to avoid anything about it, but I haven't played the games myself yet so I don't know what was mentioned in Nohr and what was clarified later.

[Iron Griffin]

When is the third route even being released? From the way it sounds people have already got their hands on it.

[Kirokan]

Just want to clarify if this was directed at me. I don't think anything I posted is from the third path since I am trying like hell to avoid anything about it, but I haven't played the games myself yet so I don't know what was mentioned in Nohr and what was clarified later.

I think that whole "Akthanos" thing is third path : ( I have literally never read his name on either paths, and the thing about Takumi and hatred was explained that way in Nohr with no other explanation or mention of who the master behind the darkness is or anything.

More proof they were saving reveals to the third path from these two...

Sorry, Thane, I'm jumping out of this thread. I think too much more will be revealed. Apologies in advance.

EDIT: After some research, Akthanos (actually Ananthos)'s Japanese name is Hydra, who they do mention before. So thankfully this wasn't too bad : )

When is the third route even being released? From the way it sounds people have already got their hands on it.

Supposedly later this month, but it got leaked or something, and there is some info in the text dump too...

Edited July 2, 2015 by Kirokan

[NeonZ]

the thing about Takumi and hatred was explained that way in Nohr with no other explanation or mention of who the master behind the darkness is or anything.

After the boss is beaten, they mention that his feelings had attracted an unknown force. The unknown force just receives no identity in Nohr's story, but it wasn't just Takumi's feelings by themselves.

強すぎる思いが、未知の力を引き寄せてしまったんだろうか…

Yes, they were obviously saving the reveal of the exact nature of that force to the third path... however, there's that codified backstory that's already accessible that basically spells out its identity and origin. It's just not said in the main story. That's more than what Grimma got in the end.

[Mighty Kamina]

My biggest issue with Nohr's story was the crystal ball that showed the true Garon exploding, and Azura obtaining it. However, I do believe that if Kamui had tried to tell the Nohrian siblings the truth about Garon, I don't think they would have believed them at that point. I also would have liked the invasion of Hoshido to have started earlier. Takumi's forgiveness comes out of left field as well. I would've liked him to be more resentful, or just the Final boss without any sort of possession.

However, Kamui's disgruntled acceptance of Garon's orders didn't really bother me. Kamui knew that they were on very thin ice with Garon from chapter 7 and onward, so they couldn't just disobey him openly without leaving and siding with Hoshido, and we all know how that would turn out for the Nohrian family. Garon's exposure, and the reactions from the siblings made sense to me.

This might be my bias for the Nohrian characters talking, but while I did have my issues with the plot, most of it made sense to me. We'll see if that holds with a better translation though, as my Japanese isn't what you'd call great.

It is a bit irritating that we can't get a good explanation on this unknown force without the third route. I also find it a bit funny that the Hoshido path has more character deaths, when the Nohr path was advertised as darker.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Monado Boy

[Seifus]

Now that I have time to think about it, I'm going to do what Iron Griffin is doing and reserve judgement until I play the route. No doubt that I will enjoy both the Nohr and Hoshido routes no matter their flaws. After all I did enjoy Dragon Age 2 despite its flaws, and I have friends who don't enjoy Lord of the Rings whereas I love it to death. I also do not want to speculate and interpret what happens in the Nohr route because I feel like that I'll be parrotting what others are saying.

[Kirokan]

I honestly expected that some of the paths' stories would be problematic.

I mean, SMT also seems to have this problem, with Law and Chaos pretty frequently being pretty clearly worse off than Neutral. Law and Chaos often feel that they go off the crazy deep end and involve stupid or petty or overly extremist evil.

Granted, SMT contains all of the routes in one game, but in fairness to FE: IF, their branching points happen FAR later in the game, typically towards the endgame, whereas IF branches early in the game instead.

Basically, I kind of saw issues like this occurring.

I'm still looking forward to the games for their gameplay merits, the real reasons that I play them. I mean, I wouldn't have played Awakening nine times if I was doing it just for the story. And from all reports I'm hearing it seems like gameplay wise Fates is shaping up to what likely will be a get game, SRPG-gameplay wise, better than Awakening, even if the individual stories or the lack of details in other routes are legitimate issues (as largely, we can separate the gameplay from the story, seeing that the story largely provides an excuse or pretext for the gameplay).

Of course, I like doing character supports, as well…. most of them I've been looking at on paste bin have seemed okay, although I'm uneasy (understatement) about that Kamui x Soleil one. But even Awakening had a few ones that I was uneasy with (Nah x Inigo, for example). I'll just make a point of ignoring that support if it really turns out that bad in localization or skipping it with the start button or something.

Yes, let me say it is a fun game for sure, and certainly difficult on the Nohr side, superior to Awakening. The music is excellent too. This thread is about the story, for people who care about it or prioritize it over gameplay (like me).

Yes, that Kamui x Soleil...xD but for the most part I think you'll be okay.

After the boss is beaten, they mention that his feelings had attracted an unknown force. The unknown force just receives no identity in Nohr's story, but it wasn't just Takumi's feelings by themselves.

強すぎる思いが、未知の力を引き寄せてしまったんだろうか…

Yes, they were obviously saving the reveal of the exact nature of that force to the third path... however, there's that codified backstory that's already accessible that basically spells out its identity and origin. It's just not said in the main story. That's more than what Grimma got in the end.

Ah, indeed. They did not give a mention, and the only vaguest hint is the mention of Hydra (named Ananthos in English, or something like that) which was in the second chapter of the Nohr story.

I played Nohr first so already forgot some things from it. But indeed, a lack of name and any reasoning beyond is still third path pushing...

Now that I have time to think about it, I'm going to do what Iron Griffin is doing and reserve judgement until I play the route. No doubt that I will enjoy both the Nohr and Hoshido routes no matter their flaws. After all I did enjoy Dragon Age 2 despite its flaws, and I have friends who don't enjoy Lord of the Rings whereas I love it to death. I also do not want to speculate and interpret what happens in the Nohr route because I feel like that I'll be parrotting what others are saying.

Yes, this is an important lesson I think many miss when reading Thane's post. Please keep in mind this is Thane's impression, and some may share it if they find the points to be undesirable, but really it comes down to your own impressions and preference. : )

[Nyanko]

Are the Nohr characters any good at least? I liked what I saw of the Nohr siblings during the Treehouse footage.

[Kirokan]

Are the Nohr characters any good at least? I liked what I saw of the Nohr siblings during the Treehouse footage.

Yep! The general consensus is that the Nohr Royal Siblings are more interesting than the Hoshido ones. I agree, too, : ) The side characters on the Nohr path too have a nice variety in design and personalities.

[Indignation211]

I am the crappiest writer I know and yet even I have managed to come up with several ideas to improve the story. For now I'll share the one that keeps most of the existing elements intact.

The first big change comes with the crystal ball scene. Now instead of just Kamui, all of the siblings are let in on the big reveal: that the man whom they thought was their father is actually an impostor (and monster) who murdered their real father. Between that and their misgivings about the direction Nohr has been going as a kingdom, the siblings vow to bring down the impostor and reform the kingdom themselves. However they cannot simply assassinate Garon right then and there, he has fanatical supporters throughout the kingdom who would turn on the siblings at the slightest hint of treason. Furthermore it is clear this impostor is some inhuman monster who cannot be killed through conventional means. Which brings us to the other big change in this scene, they do NOT learn about the throne of Hoshido here, in fact the siblings leave this scene with a clear end goal but no knowledge of how to achieve it.

So now the siblings are openly following Garon's orders but also secretly searching for clues on how to defeat him. The battles in the various duchies can be used for this purpose. The siblings must gather clues in secret lest the likes of Ganz or Iago expose them and get them all branded traitors.

Eventually the siblings get all the pieces they need and put them together. They can use the throne of Hoshido to expose Garon's true form and then use Aqua's song to weaken him. Of course with their history of war it is unlikely the Hoshido royals will simply allow this and are also unlikely to believe anything the Nohr royals say without seeing Garon's true form for themselves. With no other recourse the campaign to conquer Hoshido is launched with the main priority being securing the capital.

Once the capital is secure the siblings now have everything they need to make thier move against Garon. They plan a grand ceremony in the Hoshidan capital where Garon will assert himself as the new ruler of that kingdom. This will of course involve Garon sitting on the throne which will spring the siblings' trap. Once Garon is exposed by the throne and weakened by Aqua's song the siblings pull out any other special weapons they acquired and have the big climactic battle.

With Garon exposed and defeated the siblings are able to take control of Nohr (and possibly Hoshido too) and work together as a family to rebuild their war-torn land and possibly reform some of the more evil polices Garon had put into place.

[Nyanko]

Yep! The general consensus is that the Nohr Royal Siblings are more interesting than the Hoshido ones. I agree, too, : ) The side characters on the Nohr path too have a nice variety in design and personalities.

Well, that's good to hear. I was more drawn to Nohr's characters anyway.

[Lhyonnaes]

So... a question or two for people who are working more with firsthand information, from someone who's working with secondhand informaiton.

It seems to me like Nohr's plot is fairly dependant on character flaws. Corrin is sheltered and naive, and is faced with the conflict of not willing to betray or oppose the siblings that he knows, not wanting to give Garon any more of an excuse to have him killed, and not wanting to inflict undue damage upon Hoshido. The royal siblings, due to their upbringing, are consciously or not unwilling to see their father as the monster that he is, and - though willing to defy him in minor ways largely for the sake of family, are effectively conditioned not to try to really quesiton his rule or to take up arms against him.

Corrin's plan with Azura might be not the most intricately-thought-out plan, but it's a plan that, considering the characters at play in the story and the wider circumstances, seems to be understandable. It's a plan that at least seems to comply with Corrin's three main objectives, though it's not without problems.

So then, with the execution of that plan, the question that emerges is how does one fight an inherently unjust war while still preserving one's humanity, and is such a thing even possible?

Is that a correct assessment of what Nohr is doing, or at least trying to do? Am I forgetting or otherwise misconstruing some important elements? Do these conflicts and these themes actually come up, or am I just reading too much in to things?

Edited July 2, 2015 by Lhyonnaes

[Kirokan]

So... a question or two for people who are working more with firsthand information, from someone who's working with secondhand informaiton.

It seems to me like Nohr's plot is fairly dependant on character flaws. Corrin is sheltered and naive, and is faced with the conflict of not willing to betray or oppose the siblings that he knows, not wanting to give Garon any more of an excuse to have him killed, and not wanting to inflict undue damage upon Hoshido. The royal siblings, due to their upbringing, are consciously or not unwilling to see their father as the monster that he is, and - though willing to defy him in minor ways largely for the sake of family, are effectively conditioned not to try to really quesiton his rule or to take up arms against him.

Corrin's plan with Azura might be not the most intricately-thought-out plan, but it's a plan that, considering the characters at play in the story and the wider circumstances, seems to be understandable. It's a plan that at least seems to comply with Corrin's three main objectives, though it's not without problems.

So then, with the execution of that plan, the question that emerges is how does one fight an inherently unjust war while still preserving one's humanity, and is such a thing even possible?

Is that a correct assessment of what Nohr is doing, or at least trying to do? Am I forgetting or otherwise misconstruing some important elements? Do these conflicts and these themes actually come up, or am I just reading too much in to things?

The siblings don't really talk about "not" betraying him, but don't really talk about betraying him at all, either. They sometimes question him if he orders an arbitrary execution, but then usually roll with it, unlike Kamui who gets upset every time, gets reminded of execution, and so goes silent. It was odd that Kamui still wanted to go with Aqua's plan to invade Hoshido anyway to end the war knowing full well Garon is an execution crazed maniac, and that Ganz with him means trouble already. xD

Indeed, as you say, not a plan without problems, but certainly not the best approach if he especially wanted to preserve his Hoshido siblings, referring to how he knows Garon, Ganz, and Macbeth love to execute you then and there on the spot. I'm not quite sure how he was thinking he would get around those. He did with Hinoka, though causing her apparent death gave problems later leading to Ryouma's death anyway...

The other thing is Macbeth trails him everywhere, questioning what he was doing here, or there, and he still never thinks to better check if being followed, etc. Very odd to me he never thought "Macbeth may be around..." xD I bring this up mostly because he was trying to save Hoshido siblings like Hinoka in secret, yet didn't think about this.

In the end you are right that Nohr is trying to show Kamui handle saving Hoshido (siblings, doesn't seem to care as much for the country/populace), deal with Garon's conquest while staying in favor of him, etc. But, it does not touch on those themes. They do not even question how Kamui will handle it, they just refer to his naivety that he never improves from, and only gets supported when he is right, rather than adjusting to all that happens. I think this is partially because whenever they want him to kill someone (i.e. the Rainbow Sage, Ryouma), he always ends up getting lucky. Someone else kills them, or they kill themselves.

He doesn't actually get his hands dirty directly, much.

As such, they don't touch on the theme of unjust war while preserving humanity... xD

Edited July 2, 2015 by Kirokan

[Blade]

I am the crappiest writer I know and yet even I have managed to come up with several ideas to improve the story. For now I'll share the one that keeps most of the existing elements intact.

The first big change comes with the crystal ball scene. Now instead of just Kamui, all of the siblings are let in on the big reveal: that the man whom they thought was their father is actually an impostor (and monster) who murdered their real father. Between that and their misgivings about the direction Nohr has been going as a kingdom, the siblings vow to bring down the impostor and reform the kingdom themselves. However they cannot simply assassinate Garon right then and there, he has fanatical supporters throughout the kingdom who would turn on the siblings at the slightest hint of treason. Furthermore it is clear this impostor is some inhuman monster who cannot be killed through conventional means. Which brings us to the other big change in this scene, they do NOT learn about the throne of Hoshido here, in fact the siblings leave this scene with a clear end goal but no knowledge of how to achieve it.

So now the siblings are openly following Garon's orders but also secretly searching for clues on how to defeat him. The battles in the various duchies can be used for this purpose. The siblings must gather clues in secret lest the likes of Ganz or Iago expose them and get them all branded traitors.

Eventually the siblings get all the pieces they need and put them together. They can use the throne of Hoshido to expose Garon's true form and then use Aqua's song to weaken him. Of course with their history of war it is unlikely the Hoshido royals will simply allow this and are also unlikely to believe anything the Nohr royals say without seeing Garon's true form for themselves. With no other recourse the campaign to conquer Hoshido is launched with the main priority being securing the capital.

Once the capital is secure the siblings now have everything they need to make thier move against Garon. They plan a grand ceremony in the Hoshidan capital where Garon will assert himself as the new ruler of that kingdom. This will of course involve Garon sitting on the throne which will spring the siblings' trap. Once Garon is exposed by the throne and weakened by Aqua's song the siblings pull out any other special weapons they acquired and have the big climactic battle.

With Garon exposed and defeated the siblings are able to take control of Nohr (and possibly Hoshido too) and work together as a family to rebuild their war-torn land and possibly reform some of the more evil polices Garon had put into place.

Honestly, this sounds better, but you still kill every last Hoshidan out there. Meaning, the royal Hoshido siblings you've betrayed at chapter 6 won't come onto great terms. The cost to free a kingdom ruled by a imposter tyrant by warring thousands or even millions of Hoshidans... And your Hoshido siblings. The crystal ball is shattered so the Hoshido siblings won't believe your claims, and they're still torn by the fact that you sided with the enemy. Rejecting your blood to keep your bonds with your Nohr "siblings".

I'm not a writer that can write a masterpiece, but it's a nice idea you got going.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Fanatic&Ecstatic

[Lhyonnaes]

The siblings don't really talk about "not" betraying him, but don't really talk about betraying him at all, either. They sometimes question him if he orders an arbitrary execution, but then usually roll with it, unlike Kamui who gets upset every time, gets reminded of execution, and so goes silent. It was odd that Kamui still wanted to go with Aqua's plan to invade Hoshido anyway to end the war knowing full well Garon is an execution crazed maniac, and that Ganz with him means trouble already. xD

Indeed, as you say, not a plan without problems, but certainly not the best approach if he especially wanted to preserve his Hoshido siblings, referring to how he knows Garon, Ganz, and Macbeth love to execute you then and there on the spot. I'm not quite sure how he was thinking he would get around those. He did with Hinoka, though causing her apparent death gave problems later leading to Ryouma's death anyway...

The other thing is Macbeth trails him everywhere, questioning what he was doing here, or there, and he still never thinks to better check if being followed, etc. Very odd to me he never thought "Macbeth may be around..." xD I bring this up mostly because he was trying to save Hoshido siblings like Hinoka in secret, yet didn't think about this.

In the end you are right that Nohr is trying to show Kamui handle saving Hoshido (siblings, doesn't seem to care as much for the country/populace), deal with Garon's conquest while staying in favor of him, etc. But, it does not touch on those themes. They do not even question how Kamui will handle it, they just refer to his naivety that he never improves from, and only gets supported when he is right, rather than adjusting to all that happens. I think this is partially because whenever they want him to kill someone (i.e. the Rainbow Sage, Ryouma), he always ends up getting lucky. Someone else kills them, or they kill themselves.

He doesn't actually get his hands dirty directly, much.

As such, they don't touch on the theme of unjust war while preserving humanity... xD

Aaah, alas.

Well, thank you for the quick answer, at any rate.

[Fandangox]

Can anyone explain please what this "faceless sakura" rumor is?

[Thane]

Can anyone explain please what this "faceless sakura" rumor is?

A rumor that has been proven false and one that has zero to do with this thread.

[Fandangox]

A rumor that has been proven false and one that has zero to do with this thread.

Thanks, but that doesn't really answer my question?

Edit: Googled it.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Fandangox

[DualMix]

Thanks, but that doesn't really answer my question?

I would advise you to look elsewhere for your answer. You really won't find it here, sorry.

Can't think of something related to the topic... Except that I thought Nohr was going to be how Kamuir rebelled.

[RidellCrimea]

Well, it's unfortunate to know Nohr is the worse version, despite being marketed as the darker, more complex story of the two. Certainly decreased my hype quite a lot. I will play Nohr first as planned, but I won't expect too much great things from it story wise. At least it still has great characters, and maybe good game play.