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Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive


EJ107
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For those who care at this point, Destructoid has put this blog post at their front page:

The Fire Emblem Fates controversy: Clearing up the muck

Certainly is a better explanation that that Imgur post.

That post fails to mention how a characterization like Soleil's was used for laughs for ages. And that the western world no longer finds it funny.

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Letting Femui be able to S-rank Soleil would have done a lot to improve people's impression of the character (although the Mamui support would still be problematic). If there are no other gay/bisexual women in the army, then Soleil would be SOL, such is life, but we know Femui can be gay so there is no excuse. "Bait and switch lesbians" are terrible.

.

.

.

SOL...Soleil...Everything makes sense now.

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Letting Femui be able to S-rank Soleil would have done a lot to improve people's impression of the character (although the Mamui support would still be problematic). If there are no other gay/bisexual women in the army, then Soleil would be SOL, such is life, but we know Femui can be gay so there is no excuse. "Bait and switch lesbians" are terrible.

.

.

.

SOL...Soleil...Everything makes sense now.

What, you mean the crazies who don't understand the context of japanese trope comedy? The only people who think Soleil are lesbian/bisexual are westerners seeing unfiltered japanese tropes that are localized for a reason, because crap like this happens.

-Throw a kid into a dark pit full of cats to cure their fear of felines? CHILD ABUSE. Except no, it's a simple gag in Ranma 1/2.

-Naruto accidentally forced into kissing Sasuke? THEY MUST BE GAY. No wait, it's just a cultural level of friendship that is much farther apart in the west.

-Hell, there's an anime right now that has a guy kissing other guys on a semi-regular basis. The crazies in this thread would declare him gay or at the very least bisexual because they simply do not understand cultural context.

-Naoto from Persona 4 wants surgery to be a man! No, not really. She wants to be treated like a male because the japanese workforce as late as 2008 when the game came out was still incredibly sexist on how women were treated and respected.

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Point is, while Soleil should have been made a bisexual and able to S-rank both male and female characters, the only truly offensive thing in the M!Kamui + Soleil support line is the date-rape-drug move that Kamui pulls early on.

As long as that is made consensual during translation, I won't have anything against this support. (it may not be perfect, but it won't be god awful anymore)

What MaMU did was nothing close to date rape. It wasn't consensual, yes, but the drug did not force her to fall in love with MU. In fact, MU was taken aback when Soleil revealed that she fell in love with the female version of him, meaning that that was not his intention when he gave her the potion. All he wanted to do is help her overcome her tendency to pass out, which could have proven fatal if it happened on the battlefield.

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Don't see why Soliel has to be able to S-rank girls just to be considered a lesbian. That's a huge assumption. You don't hear people raging that Zero can only S-rank one male, despite liking both boys and girls. Just because you like someone doesn't mean you'd be willing to marry them.

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It wasn't consensual, yes,

That's the problem, dude. Nobody actually thinks Kamui was planning anything sinister, but he is still showing a lack of respect for boundaries.

Just because you like someone doesn't mean you'd be willing to marry them.

Yet every single boy/girl pairing that isn't a blood relation leads to marriage.

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What MaMU did was nothing close to date rape. It wasn't consensual, yes, but the drug did not force her to fall in love with MU. In fact, MU was taken aback when Soleil revealed that she fell in love with the female version of him, meaning that that was not his intention when he gave her the potion. All he wanted to do is help her overcome her tendency to pass out, which could have proven fatal if it happened on the battlefield.

^ yeah people drug their friends all the time in real life to help them loosen up, actually i am being serious it is called alcohol. I mean if it was just a drink that happened to have more alcohol than soleil thought or just giving her some alcohol expressly just for the purpose of helping her relax would people be as outraged?

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Zero can marry every woman he supports, but not every man.

Kamui can marry every character of the opposite gender apart from Kanna, but only Zero/Shara as the same gender.

Soleil is bisexual with a preference for girls, falls in love with M!Kamui when he looks like a girl, but can't marry F!Kamui.

It's a double standard.

@goodperson; the former would be alright because Soleil knows she's drinking alcohol, and presumably consents to it.

Consent is the key point people seem to be missing.

Edited by Baldrick
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^^ But consenting to drink a light beer is quite different than drinking heavy alcohol and a new drinker might not know the difference. And i am sure this happens in completely benign ways irl. It is not compelty respectful but hardly as bad as it is made out to be.

Edited by goodperson707
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Say do we also have a 25+ pages of a thread complaining about Henry switching body with Sumia without her consent like we did with Fates? Or we did initially didn't take that support out of context like this one did and not cause a jerknee meltdown over it, as well as fully understanding that it a non-sensical and comical support that not suppose to be taken seriously?

Henry: H-Henry! Wh-what's happening? What have you done to me?!

Sumia: Isn't it obvious? You're me, and I'm you! Clever curse, eh?

Henry: AAAAAARGH!

Sumia: Whoa! Careful with my vocal chords there! Besides, you're the one who wanted to cast spells, right?

Henry: This is NOT what I had in mind!

Sumia: Well, you're about as magic as an old sock, so this was the only way. And while you cast some hexes, I'm going to ride your pegasus all over camp! Woo-hoo! I'm gonna swoop down on people and drop stuff on their heads!

Henry: B-but, wh-what if you fall off?! You might hurt me!

Pretty sure Henry didn't have Sumia's consent...

If Nintendo didn't censored/changed SumiaxHenry, why should they censor/change this one? Can someone explain it to me?

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Say do we also have a 25+ pages of a thread complaining about Henry switching body with Sumia without her consent like we did with Fates? Or we did initially didn't take that support out of context like this one did and not cause a jerknee meltdown over it, as well as fully understanding that it a non-sensical and comical support that not suppose to be taken seriously?

Henry: H-Henry! Wh-what's happening? What have you done to me?!

Sumia: Isn't it obvious? You're me, and I'm you! Clever curse, eh?

Henry: AAAAAARGH!

Sumia: Whoa! Careful with my vocal chords there! Besides, you're the one who wanted to cast spells, right?

Henry: This is NOT what I had in mind!

Sumia: Well, you're about as magic as an old sock, so this was the only way. And while you cast some hexes, I'm going to ride your pegasus all over camp! Woo-hoo! I'm gonna swoop down on people and drop stuff on their heads!

Henry: B-but, wh-what if you fall off?! You might hurt me!

Pretty sure Henry didn't have Sumia's consent...

If Nintendo didn't censored/changed SumiaxHenry, why should they censor/change this one? Can someone explain it to me?

Cuz muh feels, and drugs In soelil being a trigger that had no warning

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While Sumia didn't know the exact curse Henry was going to use, she did make a deal with him beforehand to let him ride her pegasus if he got her to cast magic. Plus, since the support starts with Sumia!Henry reacting to the change of body, and Henry!Sumia reacting to that reaction, we can infer that she was a willing and able participant when Henry cast the curse. She wasn't ready for the exact effects of the curse, but all signs point to her consenting to it. ADD: FURTHERMORE, as soon as Sumia demanded to reverse the Hex, Henry showed her how to do so with his body instead of goofing off on her pegasus.

Contrast putting a foreign substance in someone's body without any of their prior knowledge at all, or any of your knowledge on how it might effect them. Way to false equivalency.

Edited by Tamarsamar
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While Sumia didn't know the exact curse Henry was going to use, she did make a deal with him beforehand to let him ride her pegasus if he got her to cast magic. Plus, since the support starts with Sumia!Henry's change of body, and Henry!Sumia reacting to that reaction, we can infer that she was a willing and able participant when Henry cast the curse. She wasn't ready for the exact effects of the curse, but all signs point to her consenting to it.

Contrast putting a foreign substance in someone's body without any of their prior knowledge at all, or any of your knowledge on how it might effect them. Way to false equivalency.

But did Henry have Sumia's permission to use her body? Did he tell her he gonna use her body before doing it?

Soliel asked Kamui to help but also didn't expected his action.

Both support involve one female asking a male for a favor, both male done it but without their respective female's consent and both female had a initial shock in respond to the male's action. If the argument is people of the West will find this type of action unacceptable, why is one of the support acceptable and even found cute by people of the West?

And if we're suppose to take these supports seriously, shall we blow up another thread about how CamillaxZero is sexually objectifying male? Another one for Joker making comment about murdering to Pieri? Another one for Lazward on how he is drugged, roped and robbed? And so on?

Also this overreaction has no merit in the first place for the fact that this is the Japanese version. we don't even know the official English version of this support, if Nintendo themselves find this support questionable (which I see there no reason for) they will change it. Making people themselves look like idiots for overblowing this support which we not even suppose to see in the first place.

I just hope Nintendo didn't change this support in reaction to this drama, because next time idiots are gonna take it to a mile for demanding censorship for anything they don't like. You don't like the pies in Awakening right? Well there might be more coming in the future.

Edited by Awakener_
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What, you mean the crazies who don't understand the context of japanese trope comedy? The only people who think Soleil are lesbian/bisexual are westerners seeing unfiltered japanese tropes that are localized for a reason, because crap like this happens.

-Throw a kid into a dark pit full of cats to cure their fear of felines? CHILD ABUSE. Except no, it's a simple gag in Ranma 1/2.

-Naruto accidentally forced into kissing Sasuke? THEY MUST BE GAY. No wait, it's just a cultural level of friendship that is much farther apart in the west.

-Hell, there's an anime right now that has a guy kissing other guys on a semi-regular basis. The crazies in this thread would declare him gay or at the very least bisexual because they simply do not understand cultural context.

-Naoto from Persona 4 wants surgery to be a man! No, not really. She wants to be treated like a male because the japanese workforce as late as 2008 when the game came out was still incredibly sexist on how women were treated and respected.

Yo there's a whole world of difference between cultural specificity and straight up queer erasure. Just because something wasn't written as "gay" or whatever doesn't mean it's wrong to think about it that way or that there was *nothing* queer that went into the conception of a character. By foreclosing on queerness like that you're basically claiming there is no queerness in Japan, which is a kind of gross orientalisim. Queerness in Japanese media is something way more than "just a trope"--it has meaning and significance even if it isn't exactly the same and the recognition of difference is the beginning of a critique and not the foreclosure of it. People have plenty of right to find a problem with a character who expresses overwhelming attraction to women and only ends up with men, regardless of how she was "supposed" to be.

A lot of you have empathy that's about three sizes too small.

Edited by Le Communard
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What point are you making?

That the mechanic trumps you. All het pairings lead to marriage.

And you can't even get away with saying that Nintendo is too afraid to put gay marriages in anymore. Because... they did.

The fact of the matter is... Soleil is straight.

She's not lesbian or bi.

Whether or not you think that's terrible is irrelevant. She's straight.

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While Sumia didn't know the exact curse Henry was going to use, she did make a deal with him beforehand to let him ride her pegasus if he got her to cast magic. Plus, since the support starts with Sumia!Henry reacting to the change of body, and Henry!Sumia reacting to that reaction, we can infer that she was a willing and able participant when Henry cast the curse. She wasn't ready for the exact effects of the curse, but all signs point to her consenting to it. ADD: FURTHERMORE, as soon as Sumia demanded to reverse the Hex, Henry showed her how to do so with his body instead of goofing off on her pegasus.

Contrast putting a foreign substance in someone's body without any of their prior knowledge at all, or any of your knowledge on how it might effect them. Way to false equivalency.

What? This doesn't make any sense to me. How is a bait and switch which end up controlling someone else body worse than magic powder? Hell, if Henry actually drugged sumia instead of using magic to switch bodies to make her cast magic, then the outrage would be exactly the same. This is a end doesn't justify the means kind of problem.

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​

That the mechanic trumps you. All het pairings lead to marriage.

And you can't even get away with saying that Nintendo is too afraid to put gay marriages in anymore. Because... they did.

The fact of the matter is... Soleil is straight.

She's not lesbian or bi.

Whether or not you think that's terrible is irrelevant. She's straight.

​ This line of reasoning is kind of ridiculous given that Soleil having a gay marriage option in contingent on there being other female bi members of the army, with the only instance of that being a Hoshidan whose attraction to f!Kamui is implied to be a exceptional case (i.e. an "if it's you, it's okay" type thing). The only potential area of comparison is her support with f!Kamui, but that's also inconclusive as f!Kamui seemingly rejects her advances (despite being fine with Shara's).

​

​And seriously, come on. The Soleil/Foleo support: http://pastebin.com/mPyG72CG

​

FOLEO: ... Um, er... Soleil, you do like girls, is that right?
SOLEIL: Ahaha. Do you really need to ask after all this time? Of course I do! I love cute girls!
FOLEO: Then are boys unacceptable? As, um... romantic partners...?

SOLEIL: I wouldn't say unacceptable, but girls are preferable by far. I mean, like, boys don't have any beauty, right? Looking at them doesn't get me all fired up.

Please note the context. Soleil is 100% bi; there's no two ways about it. It's just that nobody she supports with is.

Edited by Twylis
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​

​ This line of reasoning is kind of ridiculous given that Soleil having a gay marriage option in contingent on there being other female bi members of the army, with the only instance of that being a Hoshidan whose attraction to f!Kamui is implied to be a exceptional case (i.e. an "if it's you, it's okay" type thing). The only potential area of comparison is her support with f!Kamui, but that's also inconclusive as f!Kamui seemingly rejects her advances (despite being fine with Shara's).

​

​And seriously, come on. The Soleil/Foleo support: http://pastebin.com/mPyG72CG

​

FOLEO: ... Um, er... Soleil, you do like girls, is that right?
SOLEIL: Ahaha. Do you really need to ask after all this time? Of course I do! I love cute girls!
FOLEO: Then are boys unacceptable? As, um... romantic partners...?

SOLEIL: I wouldn't say unacceptable, but girls are preferable by far. I mean, like, boys don't have any beauty, right? Looking at them doesn't get me all fired up.

Please note the context. Soleil is 100% bi; there's no two ways about it. It's just that nobody she supports with is.

Obviously she's merely pretending to be bisexual.

I wonder if anyone would deny a male character being gay if his personal skill was "boy lover".

Edited by NekoKnight
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It's always amazed me how far people will go to insist that characters (particularly bisexual characters) are straight when their behavior and dialogue shows they are anything but.

Imagine if Soleil was the exact same character but male instead. Would you see anybody trying to argue that he was gay?

Edited by EJ107
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Nobody in this fandom should be surprised by that kind of behaviour. The entire Ike x Soren thing still upsets some people.

What, you mean the crazies who don't understand the context of japanese trope comedy? The only people who think Soleil are lesbian/bisexual are westerners seeing unfiltered japanese tropes that are localized for a reason, because crap like this happens.

-Throw a kid into a dark pit full of cats to cure their fear of felines? CHILD ABUSE. Except no, it's a simple gag in Ranma 1/2.

-Naruto accidentally forced into kissing Sasuke? THEY MUST BE GAY. No wait, it's just a cultural level of friendship that is much farther apart in the west.

-Hell, there's an anime right now that has a guy kissing other guys on a semi-regular basis. The crazies in this thread would declare him gay or at the very least bisexual because they simply do not understand cultural context.

-Naoto from Persona 4 wants surgery to be a man! No, not really. She wants to be treated like a male because the japanese workforce as late as 2008 when the game came out was still incredibly sexist on how women were treated and respected.

People like you are the reason garbage like Cross Ange exists.

You're completely terrified of the concept of taking anything seriously, presumably because, god forbid, you might actually get dissapointed. And this kind of insensitivity is approaching it's peak when spiking people's drinks with hallucinogenics becomes funny. The topic itself is not even actually supposed to be humorous in context of the original support, it's just ignored. It's an aside to the primary goal of what this support's purpose is; a means for the self-insert male character to get down with and grope a girl who, at the least is superficially very much into girls. That's why she doesn't react negatively, because she's not allowed to, it would betray her purpose.

I will agree that the level of indignation is somewhat misproportionate, especially when as Awakener_ so handily points out that this game, and the previous game, are full of such tripe. If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. So for me it's more of a meta-level of dissapointment at the overall way the series approaches characterisation right now, wheras many others are being hypocritical in their criticisms. "Everything's okay as long as it doesn't personally bother me!". So the only solution is to simply not take the game seriously in any capacity, which, to me, kind of sounds like a problem for a game with such lofty pretenses about it's narrative elements.

Edited by Irysa
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If Soleil is strait I'll eat my hat, this entire debacle has spiraled this place into much weightier topics than is common here. If the immidate reaction that We had over this support is any indication Soleil will have a sizable character overhaul from east to west. What form Soleil v2 will take is anybody's guess.

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It's always amazed me how far people will go to insist that characters (particularly bisexual characters) are straight when their behavior and dialogue shows they are anything but.

Imagine if Soleil was the exact same character but male instead. Would you see anybody trying to argue that he was gay?

It's amazing when people declare standards the same across multiple countries when that's not the case. How hard is it to understand that, if Soleil was from an American game, I would be clearly defend her bisexuality or lesbian or whatever.

But she isn't. She's from Japan, who makes millions of animes and short novels and gags and comedy theaters based on teasing the line but ultimately not.

And yes, there have been plenty of animes and mangas and general Japanese media that have boys that show huge affection/love/hit on/kiss men but are clearly said not gay. The Japanese media don't care nearly as much about LBGT stigmas and using them wrongly.

Imagine if Americans watched a show from Germany with a 16 year old kid drinking wine everyday. It would be declared an awful treatment of children, because of different cultural standards.

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