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Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive


EJ107
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So Soliel is just another of these girl that like flirting, loving, dating cute girls but won't committed in a more serious relationship with them (romantically bi but sexually straight). Plenty of these girl archetypes existed in Japanese medias that is imported to the West.

It will be like me liking a girl romantically enough to be my girlfriend but not enough to be my wife.

Edited by Awakener_
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That is just an excuse not to have her as a Bi Option.

Perhaps Kamui thinks that Soliel is annoying? Or doesn't like Soliel's hair? There's a bajillion trivial reasons as to why female Kamui wouldn't be interested.

The second paragraph is a fair compromise. If the writers wanted a female character that was an echo of her father, that's fine, but they really didn't need to give her his other traits (will go into this via PM if interested).

Same could be said for all the other S Ranks the player doesn't choose.

To me this is very wrong as Soleil is established very firmly as into being into women and FeKamui has the option to be Bi.. But only with a Tharja Clone. There's no reason why they had to stop with 1 male and 1 female bi option only when the cast is that large. That and you must go third path to even have both option on the same path.

Worse yet is how the Bi characters are portrayed as unhinged and "crazy" while Soleil, who embraces loving women, is stuck with "Cure the gay away".

Edited by Pretty_Handsome
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Perhaps Kamui thinks that Soliel is annoying? Or doesn't like Soliel's hair? There's a bajillion trivial reasons as to why female Kamui wouldn't be interested.

The second paragraph is a fair compromise. If the writers wanted a female character that was an echo of her father, that's fine, but they really didn't need to give her his other traits (will go into this via PM if interested).

I don't think IS really put much thought into gay romance. There are only 2 gay characters and one of them (Shara) seems to be only a Kamui-sexual, rather than a legit bisexual. All orientation compatible people can marry but Femui can't marry Soleil. Why? Because Femui isn't consistently written. Soleil is a lesbian-leaning bisexual forced into a game that only has a framework for heterosexual pairings.

So Soliel is just another of these girl that like flirting, loving, dating cute girls but won't committed in a more serious relationship with them (romantically bi but sexually straight). Plenty of these girl archetypes existed in Japanese medias that is imported to the West.

It will be like me liking a girl romantically enough to be my girlfriend but not enough to be my wife.

Dufuq does this even mean? "Mom, just because I have a girlfriend, doesn't mean I'm gay. We're in a romantic relationship but we always say 'no homo' before kissing!"

The denial game is too strong.

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Dufuq does this even mean? "Mom, just because I have a girlfriend, doesn't mean I'm gay. We're in a romantic relationship but we always say 'no homo' before kissing!"

The denial game is too strong.

Don't know where you get that from, all I'm saying is that Soliel might be interested in only girlfriend/boyfriend type of relationship with the girls but not beyond that. Because if she is committed for more serious type of relationship, she will have a S rank support with female Kamui who is compatible with all units that is bi or opposite gender. Edited by Awakener_
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Tbh, whilst I do like any concepts that work on the prospect of romantic friendships (shit's been erased by modern society), I think that's reaching a little too far.

You're all attempting to apply in-universe reasoning to justify a conundrum that is easily solvable via meta-analysis. If we really were going to apply Occam's Razor, then the simpliest solution is that Soleil was created to be a romancable/gropable "girl crazy" female counterpart to NotOwain. Everything else is secondary. One can draw interpretations from her character, but you're working off a flawed premise, so you'll never reach a coherant conclusion.

Edited by Irysa
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Don't know where you get that from, all I'm saying is that Soliel might be interested in only girlfriend/boyfriend type of relationship with the girls but not beyond that. Because if she is committed for more serious type of relationship, she will have a S rank support with female Kamui who is compatible with all units that is bi or opposite gender.

Let's say that Soleil is completely heterosexual and that all her supports where talks about her love for girls and even explicitly tells another character that she is bisexual don't exist. Why does Femui not respond to her advances? Femui at least should be into Soleil even if Soleil is "not-serious gay".

Answer: This is still a very het-norm game with two (odd) exceptions.

You're all attempting to apply in-universe reasoning to justify a conundrum that is easily solvable via meta-analysis. If we really were going to apply Occam's Razor, then the simpliest solution is that Soleil was created to be a romancable/gropable "girl crazy" female counterpart to NotOwain. Everything else is secondary. One can draw interpretations from her character, but you're working off a flawed premise, so you'll never reach a coherant conclusion.

Correct. The writing of who Soleil is as a character is unimportant in the goal of letting men romance whomever they want.

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Let's say that Soleil is completely heterosexual and that all her supports where talks about her love for girls and even explicitly tells another character that she is bisexual don't exist. Why does Femui not respond to her advances? Femui at least should be into Soleil even if Soleil is "not-serious gay".

Robin didn't take the advances from Tharja pre-S too, you gonna need that S my friend. S is all that matter. But Soliel and female Kamui didn't have that S. This is one problem with current support system, it will look funny if one character is acting all lovey-dovey with another character in one support while that character is already married. This could just mean Soliel didn't pursue further beyond A support.

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Worse yet is how the Bi characters are portrayed as unhinged and "crazy" while Soleil, who embraces loving women, is stuck with "Cure the gay away".

Do me a favor and read Zero's supports in full. Still don't like him, but it's for different reasons.

I don't think IS really put much thought into gay romance. There are only 2 gay characters and one of them (Shara) seems to be only a Kamui-sexual, rather than a legit bisexual. All orientation compatible people can marry but Femui can't marry Soleil. Why? Because Femui isn't consistently written. Soleil is a lesbian-leaning bisexual forced into a game that only has a framework for heterosexual pairings.

Even if Zero's well-done, I'm still slightly annoyed that the same-sex pairings feel like an afterthought, as opposed to a genuine idea.

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Do me a favor and read Zero's supports in full. Still don't like him, but it's for different reasons.Even if Zero's well-done, I'm still slightly annoyed that the same-sex pairings feel like an afterthought, as opposed to a genuine idea.

The fact that you can't pair female Kamui with Azura AKA the main heroine and the girl that is so loyal and devoted to you, should already tell you how much they cared about it. Another fact that one of the bi character can be completely skipped without any problem is just another hint on how much they cared.

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Robin didn't take the advances from Tharja pre-S too, you gonna need that S my friend. S is all that matter. But Soliel and female Kamui didn't have that S. This is one problem with current support system, it will look funny if one character is acting all lovey-dovey with another character in one support while that character is already married. This could just mean Soliel didn't pursue further beyond A support.

The problem is people are assuming that the mechanic (marriage) serves the writing instead of the writing serving the mechanic. Soleil might self-identify as bisexual but because she has no same sex romantic partners (as a game mechanic) people jump through so many mental gymnastics to try to justify this.

"Merely pretending"

"Just likes to flirt."

"Is okay with dating girls but isn't 'for real' gay"

"She's just emulating her father."

and my personal favorite "It's a trope! You can't understand Japanese culture!"

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, people try to ram an obviously bisexual character into the frame of a strictly heterosexual character. If there were no S supports and we didn't have a game mechanic to "confirm" a character's sexuality, no one would doubt Soleil being bisexual. Because...she literally tells you she is.

Edited by NekoKnight
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Do me a favor and read Zero's supports in full. Still don't like him, but it's for different reasons.

Even if Zero's well-done, I'm still slightly annoyed that the same-sex pairings feel like an afterthought, as opposed to a genuine idea.

Zero is still a sadist and some of his supports are... Odd.

The problem is people are assuming that the mechanic (marriage) serves the writing instead of the writing serving the mechanic. Soleil might self-identify as bisexual but because she has no same sex romantic partners (as a game mechanic) people jump through so many mental gymnastics to try to justify this.

"Merely pretending"

"Just likes to flirt."

"Is okay with dating girls but isn't 'for real' gay"

"She's just emulating her father."

and my personal favorite "It's a trope! You can't understand Japanese culture!"

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, people try to ram an obviously bisexual character into the frame of a strictly heterosexual character. If there were no S supports and we didn't have a game mechanic to "confirm" a character's sexuality, no one would doubt Soleil being bisexual. Because...she literally tells you she is.

Indeed and that's the issue. Certain users trying to justify this abomination of writing.

I can't believe any of Soleil's supports were approved.

Edited by Pretty_Handsome
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The problem is people are assuming that the mechanic (marriage) serves the writing instead of the writing serving the mechanic. Soleil might self-identify as bisexual but because she has no same sex romantic partners (as a game mechanic) people jump through so many mental gymnastics to try to justify this.

"Merely pretending"

"Just likes to flirt."

"Is okay with dating girls but isn't 'for real' gay"

"She's just emulating her father."

and my personal favorite "It's a trope! You can't understand Japanese culture!"

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, people try to ram an obviously bisexual character into the frame of a strictly heterosexual character. If there were no S supports and we didn't have a game mechanic to "confirm" a character's sexuality, no one would doubt Soleil being bisexual. Because...she literally tells you she is.

I never taken her liking girls seriously in the first place with who her father is, didn't her support with Lazward have him compliment her for one upping him or something? This just reinforced my opinion that Soliel is meant to have non-sensical and comical supports about girls like her father. Because fainting around cute girls and need help overcoming it since she is fighting with and against them also wanting to be "cool" around them? What the fuck is that anyway? They failed hard if her support are meant to be taken seriously. Seriously her father will still flirt with girls even when he is married. I will taken her being bi more seriously if she is first, because I didn't take him seriously in Awakening so I won't take a gender-bent Lazward seriously. Either make her support more seriously about her liking girls and not stupid fainting shit like in her support with Kamui or I'm right on IS just wanted to do some stupid running gag from Awakening to here. Edited by Awakener_
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Oh my god, is this entire terrible thread assuming the supports were not an extended gag of Inigo's character? You actually took it as some serious anaylsis and/or repression? Goddamn, no wonder people said tumbler people are terrible.

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I never taken her liking girls seriously in the first place with who her father is, didn't her support with Lazward have him compliment her for one upping him or something? This just reinforced my opinion that Soliel is meant to have non-sensical and comical supports about girls like her father. Because fainting around cute girls and need help overcoming it since she is fighting with and against them also wanting to be "cool" around them? What the fuck is that anyway? They failed hard if her support are meant to be taken seriously. Seriously her father will still flirt with girls even when he is married. I will taken her being bi more seriously if she is first, because I didn't take him seriously in Awakening so I won't take a gender-bent Lazward seriously. Either make her support more seriously about her liking girls and not stupid fainting shit like in her support with Kamui or I'm right on IS just wanted to do some stupid running gag from Awakening to here.

So, than is Inigo gay than and his flirting with women nonsensical?

Clearly he must be into guys despite lusting after only women just like Soleil!

Edited by Pretty_Handsome
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So, than is Inigo gay than and his flirting with women nonsensical?

Clearly he must be into guys despite lusting after only women just like Soleil!

Absolutely! Hell even Virion agreed with me.

Inigo: Ugh, Father! That gorgeous girl was just about to say yes to a date! JUST about to! Did you really have to drag me off like that?!

Virion: Hunting the fairer sex is indeed a noble pursuit, as I know better than most... But we have a battle to prepare for, Inigo. Everyone else is ready to march. If you're mad, be mad at yourself for losing track of time.

Inigo: Oh, heh heh heh... Whoops... All right, time to go trounce some enemies and find a village lass to reward my efforts!

Virion: ......

"......" indeed, tell me again why I should take him serious?

Inigo obsession with girls started by Olivia but IS overblown his gimmick by having him to hit on any thing that is female. Soliel suffered this as well but even worst because she Lazward as her father. If IS tried to portray her as a serious bi character, first she can be anyone child BUT Lazward or even be a first gen character. Second tone down her overblown obsession with girls because they are cute thing and remove the whole "OMG A CUTE GIRL! (Fainted...)" the like that is from a comedy anime. Making it that she isn't a Inigo with a female body is a good start for me. Or despite all that have a S rank for her with female Kamui to show that she is committed for a serious relationship with her and not just holding hands, kissing or going out. But the problem is she is neither both.

Edited by Awakener_
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Absolutely! Hell even Virion agreed with me.

Inigo: Ugh, Father! That gorgeous girl was just about to say yes to a date! JUST about to! Did you really have to drag me off like that?!

Virion: Hunting the fairer sex is indeed a noble pursuit, as I know better than most... But we have a battle to prepare for, Inigo. Everyone else is ready to march. If you're mad, be mad at yourself for losing track of time.

Inigo: Oh, heh heh heh... Whoops... All right, time to go trounce some enemies and find a village lass to reward my efforts!

Virion: ......

"......" indeed, tell me again why I should take him serious?

Inigo obsession with girls started by Olivia but IS overblown his gimmick by having him to hit on any thing that is female. Soliel suffered this as well but even worst because she Lazward as her father. If IS tried to portray her as a serious bi character, first she can be anyone child BUT Lazward or even be a first gen character. Second tone down her overblown obsession with girls because they are cute thing and remove the whole "OMG A CUTE GIRL! (Fainted...)" the like that is from a comedy anime. Making it that she isn't a Inigo with a female body is a good start for me. Or despite all that have a S rank for her with female Kamui to show that she is committed for a serious relationship with her and not just holding hands, kissing or going out. But the problem is she is neither both.

It's not a matter of it being an exaggerated trait or that it's never intended to have comedic appeal. The question is "Do people assume Inigo is anything but heterosexual?" No, clearly he is not gay. But when we transplant that exact same personality onto another character people think she's just faking it and that it only exists for comedy. Double-standards.

People didn't need an S support to understand that Heather is gay, even if she is similar to Soleil.

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It's not a matter of it being an exaggerated trait or that it's never intended to have comedic appeal. The question is "Do people assume Inigo is anything but heterosexual?" No, clearly he is not gay. But when we transplant that exact same personality onto another character people think she's just faking it and that it only exists for comedy. Double-standards.

People didn't need an S support to understand that Heather is gay, even if she is similar to Soleil.

Of course she not entirely hetero, she shown interested in both gender I won't denied that but I can see why people will think otherwise given her circumstance and questioned how truly seriously she is about loving girls and not just being a running gag as like her father. For Soliel, my opinion still that of someone who like girls but won't committed beyond a girlfriend/boyfriend level as compared to males.

I think possibly IS's goal for Soliel is ultimately meant for us to say something like "Yup, that is totally

Inigo's daughter

no doubt.", the whole "I love girls" part is a afterthought as they didn't gave her a S rank support like Shara.

Edited by Awakener_
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That just makes Soleil sound like a poorly written (or at the very least inconsistent) character more than anything else.

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That just makes Soleil sound like a poorly written (or at the very least inconsistent) character more than anything else.

Indifferent on Inigo and but disliked Tharja, but shitton of people liked them. Girl that like fellow girl because of certain quality that males lack until the MC appear and that girl find that quality in MC is common archetype, anime is popular here and even more so in Japan. Awakening has a lot of anime tropes and archetypes, Awakening sold a lot. You can connect the dots why soliel is as it is. As a weeb who love Japanese media and as someone who watched too much animes to make a fuzz about it, I'm very used to this kind of stuff.

Edited by Awakener_
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That just makes Soleil sound like a poorly written (or at the very least inconsistent) character more than anything else.

She is (at least from what I hear). Which is what makes it amusing that this debate is still going on. People debating about gay conversion or why she can't marry any girls despite clearly being bi....it's really as simple as she's a victim of (apparently) being a poorly written character (if you believe she's just imitating her father) and stuck in a game that, like NeroKnight said, is hetronormative with it's marriage system. That pretty much sums up her issues and how this support could exist (minus Kamui drugging her) and I've seen multiple people state this yet people are still arguing about this.

I think incompetence in their writing and the mostly heterosexual marriage system is much more likely for why Soleil turned out this way than any malicious intent/backward views on IS about romantic two girl friendships, gay conversion or anything else people have been throwing around.

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I'm not an active poster to these forums, in fact not really at all I just prefer to read. But I have a strong opinion on this and will try to adhere to all rules as properly as I can.

So let's get started on the easy one that based on what I've seen here is the general thing people have come to agree on. I'm assuming we all agree that Male Kamui is trying to cure Soleil of her fainting spells around girls and not her sexuality. I hope we can all at least agree on that after reading it a second time in a calm manner. And we all should agree she is romantically and sexually interested in men and women, though preferably swings to the girls side.

So let's hit the bigger yet not as prominent discussion to the original implications of this topic. It truly sucks that there are only two homosexual options in a game littered with heterosexual ones. It's sad that the ones they have are treated as an afterthought and clearly are. I'm certain the team they used to write these supports were in the same group as the pie brigade, and as such some are gonna be bad, it's a shame it was Tharja II and Zero's homosexual ones. The homosexual supports are new, it's probably somewhere along the lines of the case in Metroid where "What if this character was a girl?" popped up at the last minute in development and so some homosexuality was thrown in. Likely Soleil existed as she is before this though, so why not her? I can't answer that, but I can speculate. And it's likely because it was a last minute addition, it's not that they hate gays, it's that they didn't plan them out properly. Now that doesn't excuse poor writing, but it does explain small choice variety. So let's talk about Soleil's apparent bisexuality. She states that she likes men and women, but that girls are more preferable because they are cute. So clearly she could theoretically S-Support a man or a woman. I hope we can agree on that. So why does she just seem to suddenly become straight? I have no answer, I could blame writing but that's been done to death. I could say it was all a gimmick for development, but no one wants to accept that though. I could say, she's just emulating her father and isn't serious, but that seems rude to all the girls she would well compliment. So maybe IS/NintenHQ is against gays and had to "cure" her, but then why would Zero and Syara even exist? Or maybe she is interested in simply liking girls but not loving them, she did say they are great for romantic choices, so maybe she seeks romantic friendship but not a marriage with them, but will seek one with a guy because it is more natural to the world around her(given her heterosexual father). All of these are plausible explanations. I will stick with the likelihood that she was probably partially the last one I mentioned mixed with IS wanting her to have some shock to her, and then when the homosexual relationships was added in they just forgot about her. But it could be anything really.

Small side note: Fem Kamui is not homophobic in any way based on what I read in the translations, she has nothing against Soleil's liking for girls. She, as an uptight, sheltered, and cooped up in a tower royal princess, was shocked at what Soleil was saying, not to who or the implications thereof, but that she would be so bold in her speaking. To her speaking as such was considered intimate and thus embarassing in public, she would have likely reacted the same way with Soleil doing it to a guy, or possibly if Soleil were a guy saying those things to a girl, were the two close enough to speak on that. Smaller note: Male Kamui wasn't enacting his ownership of her by saying she couldn't flirt with other guys. He was playfully joking about her being unfaithful, plenty of the S-supports in Awakening did that, though right now I can only think of Nah's for an example of an extreme case like what some people are construing Male Kamui as. And he is being, once again, the tower dwelling royal with his charade on the touching her chest, just being a little pure there and is not demeaning her but trying to show his respect for her boundaries.

So let's get into the true hot topic, the drugging. First I will be clear, Male Kamui in no way performed date rape or anything of the sort. And saying that is the closest thing to date rape without being date rape is the same as saying handing someone a knife is the closest thing to forcing them to commit suicide without actually doing that. Which is ridiculous. However he did slip her something without permission which is bad, and I think it would have been infinitely better for him to ask beforehand but I think there is a reason not to. But let's entirely pick it apart.

Cons to discuss:

  1. It's clearly wrong as it was without her knowing and changed her perception of the world
  2. She could've had an adverse reaction
  3. Why not take her to a random village with cute girls or make use of the likes of Mozume and them?
  4. She's someone else's child, why not ask Laz?

Now then let's hit all those shortly, then I'll give a strong arguement at the end on them. Ends can never fully justify the means if the ends are immoral. However his actions were most likely not performed immorally and definitely not with ill intent, which gives him a slight pass on that(I will talk about the possible immorality later). Once again like the previous, she didn't have adverse reactions so no harm. But to explain it better: It is likely that no one would, as most magic powders in fantasy that I have read aren't just ground from random plants and then imbued with magic, but are usually just materialized from magic in the air thus having no chemical reaction for the bodies allergies to fight against. On the third, that would be pretty rough to do during the war and all that, and it's likely the girls at camp don't trigger the event, as can be seen with Ophelia and Foleo(though he's a man), but it's possible that they tried this outside of the support and it was fruitless(fancanon amirite?). And lastly, this will tie in the first two, Male Kamui most likely did take the matter up with Laz, who likely laughed it off or may have suggested the idea or something similar. Based on the translation(though I can't speak for original) it doesn't seem like Kamui just walked down to the Nohrian Expressmart and grabbed some stuff, he says he managed to get his hands on it. This implies to me that he searched for the powder, looked long and hard for it, did research on the problem, and likely talked it over with other people, that he looked into other alternatives, maybe even inquired her(or Father Inigo) about any allergies she has. After acquiring the "goods" he sought out to immediately implement them, the only morally grey area. So is it wrong or not? From Kamui's standpoint, and thus how I see it, not. To Kamui, he is certain that this alternative could produce results that would aid Soleil in helping with her fainting spells. And since she already asked him to help, he didn't need to talk to her ahead of time because he firgured this was part of the plan. It's also possible he didn't talk to her beforehand because he may have wanted to avoid the placebo effect. Where she saw guys as girls but actually didn't which would lead to it lasting possibly indefinitely instead of temporarily like it does, which would then be in the range of "curing the gay", but I digress. Kamui did it for Soleil's good with no ill intentions, and likely after fully researching the matter.

TL;DR?

Long story short: It was all done for helping Soleil, and with assumed permission to perform the act. He meant nothing malicious and likely sought other alternatives outside of magic ahead of time. He most likely, as the thoughtful person he was to work so hard, made sure nothing ill could happen from his actions taken, and simply did it out of camraderie and with all forethought taken. Until S-Rank, Kamui was just being the best bro Soleil needed.

At least this is all my take on it. Maybe I'm full of it, and IS/NintenHQ are just bigots, or maybe Kamui is a psychopath in the making, or maybe he is a massive idiot. Who knows, but I'll stick to what I can derive from canon with my limited knowledge.

So forgive me for the long post, had to think hard on this one, but I hope this can help people come to a close on this. Or maybe it will spark some research and people will make a perfect counter arguement that proves the opposite. Maybe I'll chat more in the forums instead of just reading in the future. Thanks for the thought project, I actually enjoyed it.

Edited by Cyngaege
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Indifferent on Inigo and but disliked Tharja, but shitton of people liked them. Girl that like fellow girl because of certain quality that males lack until the MC appear and that girl find that quality in MC is common archetype, anime is popular here and even more so in Japan. Awakening has a lot of anime tropes and archetypes, Awakening sold a lot. You can connect the dots why soliel is as it is. As a weeb who love Japanese media and as someone who watched too much animes to make a fuzz about it, I'm very used to this kind of stuff.

Just because something is popular doesn't mean that it's good.

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This is so terrible I can't even properly be mad

It's like it was written by some lonely fuck who has no idea how people actually interact with each other

It's just sad and kind of entertaining

That's the way I feel about romancing the Nohr siblings.

"I know that we saw each other as siblings our whole lives, but now that I know we aren't related, I wanna tap 'dat ass!"

- Said no real person ever

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