Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive

[Sunsurge]

Maybe the problem is that people put too much of their stock in their sexual identity?

If I were gay, I wouldn't flaunt my orientation as my identity. I wouldn't be super into the communal aspect. Sure, it'd be a hotly controversial part of me, and a part of me that will affect things I do, but it wouldn't be something I really put investment into. It'd just be part of who I am and that's it.

See if I were to put a lot of stock in that, I believe I'd be pretty offended at anything resembling opposition to that. I'd probably be pretty militant against stuff like this. I would be really into everything related to this part of me and dedicate my time, resources, and energy to it all. Like, I know me. When I'm really into something, I'm REALLY into something. This doesn't apply to everyone but you get my point?

So maybe, just maybe, people should not put so much stock in their sexual identity?

This is EXACTLY the problem. But...at the same time, for a lot of gay people, it is the only thing they have. I would go into a really long explanation, but suffice to say, when people are rejected/abused/bullied for ONE part of who they are, they tend to latch onto it, and then it becomes ALL they are in a sense.

I'm bisexual, but for me, it doesn't DEFINE me. It only defines if I currently have a girlfriend or boyfriend. It's not a conversation starter (or even in conversations I have-usually), and while I DO care, and I am INVOLVED, I don't let it take over and I can look at things pretty objectively.

This for instance, is not really THAT big of a deal at all. I don't think people should get really angry at anything even resembling opposition, because it's just silly. I'm glad IS put gay marriage in it. Is it perfect? No. But I'm happy they DID it.

And I DEFINITELY don't think it was wrong for them to put it in the game, because having visibility--no matter how poorly executed--is a big thing, and I'm really glad they put it in.

[Kirokan]

I think I'll just wait for Nintendo or IS's response to the matter before deciding on my thoughts.

Again, while it may seem like a fiasco here, I wonder if they notice or even care? And if so, would they really comment on it? : \

[Othin]

Maybe the problem is that people put too much of their stock in their sexual identity?

If I were gay, I wouldn't flaunt my orientation as my identity. I wouldn't be super into the communal aspect. Sure, it'd be a hotly controversial part of me, and a part of me that will affect things I do, but it wouldn't be something I really put investment into. It'd just be part of who I am and that's it.

And how exactly do you claim to know this?

It's easy to make assumptions when you don't have all the information.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Maybe the problem is that people put too much of their stock in their sexual identity?

If I were gay, I wouldn't flaunt my orientation as my identity. I wouldn't be super into the communal aspect. Sure, it'd be a hotly controversial part of me, and a part of me that will affect things I do, but it wouldn't be something I really put investment into. It'd just be part of who I am and that's it.

See if I were to put a lot of stock in that, I believe I'd be pretty offended at anything resembling opposition to that. I'd probably be pretty militant against stuff like this. I would be really into everything related to this part of me and dedicate my time, resources, and energy to it all. Like, I know me. When I'm really into something, I'm REALLY into something. This doesn't apply to everyone but you get my point?

So maybe, just maybe, people should not put so much stock in their sexual identity?

It's pretty easy to not put much stock in your sexual identity if it's one everyone assumes is the default: one which doesn't put you at far greater risk of bullying, social ostracisation, and extreme cases your family disowning you and/or suicide. If you haven't had to deal with that, don't presume to judge the choices of those who have.

Really, the biggest mistake Intelligent Systems had made was actually introducing gay marriage into the game. Now every tiny detail related to characters' appearance, dialogue, relationships with people of the opposite sex, of the same sex, etc. will be scrutinised (or casually misrepresented as something else) by the craziest and most hysterical dwellers of the internet. I promise you this is just the first of the many, many ridiculously asinine gay FE scandals still to come, all because IS put themselves into the spotlight with that first notorious decision.

The game would have gotten some bad press for being 100% heteronormative anyway... y'know, like Awakening already did. Not enough to dent its success, of course, and Fates will be the same way. Just based on my casual observations so far I believe the announcement of the gay marriage options (which was official and Nintendo-sourced, unlike this narrow-reaching clickbait crap we've seen for articles on this topic) has done far more to enhance the game's publiciity than things like this have done to drag it down, and I can't see that changing.

[MitoRequiem]

Her support with Foleo seems relatively benign, at least.

​http://pastebin.com/mPyG72CG

Some of Soleil's behaviour is questionable, but it's in-character nonetheless. And it (like many other children supports) doesn't have an absolutely terrible S-rank, due to the lack of a spontaneous shoehorned marriage.

what a convenient ninja

Thank you for posting this <3

[Sias]

I thought that the main point that was wrong here is that the support is just plain stupid.

Of course, part of the problem is that female Kamui can't marry her, despite the fact that she can marry this other girl... And really, their A-rank support reads like any other romantic one's A-Rank.

Yeah.

The writing of this support is pretty terrible all in all, and addition to the bad fanfic stuff like maaagic powder we have parts that seem somewhat inconsistent to what we've seen from Soleil's personality so far.

I mean, after noticing her inherent skill and the supports with her dad/F!Kamui/Ophelia/partially Foleo, you do get an idea about how you expect her to behave in similar situations. And then there's this support.

Why is she suddenly fainting around cute girls, when on other occasions she was happily flirting with them ?

And why can't she have lesbian S-supports as a bisexual who stated (Foleo/Soleil, I think?) that she likes women more than men? Especially after some of the supports she has with females?

And by the way, one of those articles said that: "she pretended this way to get revenge on her father but ended up regretting it when it became a habit".

I've never read this before, so I'm interested: In what conversation does she actually talk about it? Her recruitment? A specific support?

It would certainly explain things, although it's still somewhat weird.

Really, the biggest mistake Intelligent Systems had made was actually introducing gay marriage into the game. Now every tiny detail related to characters' appearance, dialogue, relationships with people of the opposite sex, of the same sex, etc. will be scrutinised (or casually misrepresented as something else) by the craziest and most hysterical dwellers of the internet. I promise you this is just the first of the many, many ridiculously asinine gay FE scandals still to come, all because IS put themselves into the spotlight with that first notorious decision.

Regarding this, I disagree.

I think the general consensus is that gay marriage is a good addition, but there are two things about it which some people think are badly handled:

First of all, homosexual pairings get no children.

And secondly, you have only one option per path (if at all). Characters that very well could've been bisexual considering their personality (Cyrus, Soleil, maybe Camilla and Aqua from what people mentioned so far) simply aren't.

Personally this doesn't really bother me all that much, but I believe as well that IS easily could've done better and I understand the people that complain.

[NekoKnight]

Jeez, I know IS is shit at writing romance but this is a new low (not as bad as Camilla x Zero but I digress). Even looking at the interaction in the most positive light, it's still garbage because of something so random and unfounded as "magic dust that makes you see people as the opposite gender". I'm going to agree with others and say that writing a character who is a bisexual with a heavy preference for girls, but have all her partners be men was nonsensical.

[Jackolantern282]

And how exactly do you claim to know this?

It's easy to make assumptions when you don't have all the information.

That's not the point here. Perhaps I shouldn't have said that, as I don't really know (it depends on the time period of me being gay; i'd likely be least accepted in elementary/middle school and more in HS, if perhaps you're wondering). I mean, no s*** it's easy for me to not put stock in my identity because I'm straight. I am not by any means oblivious to that.

I'm saying that there are some LGBT people who put too much stock in their sexual identity, hence their behavior here. There are some LGBT people who don't put a lot of stock in their sexual identity.

I'm not judging anyone here. I'm saying, if someone has been/is being bullied/harassed/shunned due to their sexuality, or dealing with depression/suicidal thoughts, I think that a step they don't need to take is rail against things such as this. Rather, they need help doing whatever they need to do to overcome whatever they need to.

It's a matter of priority, and finding and addressing the real problems.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[Soapbar]

Tbh, I'm just waiting for someone like Totalbiscuit or Jim Sterling to comment on this, their large Twitter following to then spread it around, and then for everyone to agree with them and follow the path of logic and the whole conversation comes to a screeching halt, because thats generally what happens.

Really, this has been overblown. Don't get me wrong, the support is bad but it's not homophobic like that article would have you believe. Furthermore, this is an unoffical fan translation so there's chances of mistranslation etc. FURTHERMORE, even if this support was 100% translated perfectly it was going to get nuked in the localization anyways (most likely)

[arvilino]

It seems a bigger deal is being made of the less important point than the other. The dubious part of the support is Corrin giving Soleil the Powder without permission, Soleil could be a woman, man, hemaphrodite and homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual and the topic of the support could remain quite the same as long as it's making Soleil see something as something else it shouldn't matter what sex or sexuality if this is being treated fairly.

The "mistaken" news article writers saw something that can be written a hot button issue surrounding a relevant special interest group, hence how "Fire Emblem Fates homophobia: Gay character in Nintendo 3DS RPG is drugged to turn her 'straight' was a article headline. What ideally should be seen as the arbitrary part of the support is being twisted into the main point specifically due to Soleil's sexuality.

[Shuuda]

Again, while it may seem like a fiasco here, I wonder if they notice or even care? And if so, would they really comment on it? : \

I can't say I honestly care that much (that sounds so egotistical in my head). That said, I'm curious whether it would acutally be a smart move on their part to respond. On the one hand, it would be good to get their take on it. On the other; I doubt anything they say or do would placate the masses of the internet. One camp's going to be shieking like monkeys no matter what.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Shuuda

[Sias]

That's not the point. Perhaps I shouldn't have said that, as I don't really know (it depends on the time period of me being gay).

The point is, is that there are there are LGBT people who put too much stock in their identity, hence their behavior here. There are some LGBT people who don't put a lot of stock in their identity. Some people put a lot of stock in it. Others don't.

I'm not judging anyone here. I'm saying, if someone has been/is being bullied/harassed/shunned due to their sexuality, or dealing with depression/suicidal thoughts, I think that a step they don't need to take is rail against things such as this. Rather, they need help doing whatever they need to do to overcome whatever they need to.

I don't necessarily think that bullied/depressed LGBT people who overemphasize their sexual identity are the ones complaining here. There surely are some of those, but I heavily doubt it's anywhere close to the majority.

As I described more detailed in my post above, I perfectly understand someone when he/she dislikes the lack of options and children for homosexual pairings.

[Sunsurge]

It's pretty easy to not put much stock in your sexual identity if it's one everyone assumes is the default: one which doesn't put you at far greater risk of bullying, social ostracisation, and extreme cases your family disowning you and/or suicide. If you haven't had to deal with that, don't presume to judge the choices of those who have.

Even so, he had a point. LGBT people DO put too much stock in their sexual identity. And then they go crazy at the slightest mention that is 'negative'. I see it all the time in Transgender people especially, who literally get offended at TINY things, that nobody meant harm by.

And I still think some of the people who are going crazy at this whole thing, are those people who can't separate their own personal identity from their sexual one. No matter what you've gone through, it doesn't make it right.

[arvilino]

I can't say I honestly care that much (that sounds so egotistical in my head). That said, I'm curious whether it would acutally be a smart move on their part to respond. On the one hand, it would be good to get their take on it. On the other; I doubt anything they say or do would placate the masses of the internet. One camp's going to be shieking like monkeys no matter what.

It probably isn't worth it, Nintendo responded to Tomodachi Life(already released in Japan, and the controversy sparking up about 1 month before its western release and very shortly after the UK for example legalized gay marriage) not having homosexual marriage and it only made it worse until they had to offer a second statement that they stated they'd aim to make future entries more inclusive. Which kind of puts them in a conundrum because they'll have to be ontop of both western and eastern culture, because if something else springs up just before release and they don't have it in the next game it's the same song and dance all over whether they've added homosexual relationships or not if for example they don't have disabled Miis.

With Soleil and FE Fates I think they'll be far better of not even responding to it, changing up the western support and let it cool down over the half a year or more before the western release rather than adding any fuel to the fire.

[Kirokan]

Tbh, I'm just waiting for someone like Totalbiscuit or Jim Sterling to comment on this, their large Twitter following to then spread it around, and then for everyone to agree with them and follow the path of logic and the whole conversation comes to a screeching halt, because thats generally what happens.

Really, this has been overblown. Don't get me wrong, the support is bad but it's not homophobic like that article would have you believe. Furthermore, this is an unoffical fan translation so there's chances of mistranslation etc. FURTHERMORE, even if this support was 100% translated perfectly it was going to get nuked in the localization anyways (most likely)

I can say the translation is fairly accurate from when I took a glimpse at the raw text dump the other day, as did a few other users.It could have used slightly more specific wording to point out what is being cured to avoid the misunderstanding. The issue is not the translation, but how it was interpreted. If professionals or people with a large following took a look at the translation, it would not make a difference. They would have to just reach the conclusion many here have reached and such through the interpretation of it and the like and pass on that conclusion.

That being said, if they pass on a logical conclusion, then it should still be fine.

I can't say I honestly care that much (that sounds so egotistical in my head). That said, I'm curious whether it would acutally be a smart move on their part to respond. On the one hand, it would be good to get their take on it. On the other; I doubt anything they say or do would placate the masses of the internet. One camp's going to be shieking like monkeys no matter what.

No worries about that. I was more curious about the second part, about if they were to reply, how they would do it because there would be no one size fits all, so they may just stay silent to avoid it all, which is usually the case.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Kirokan

[EJ107]

Maybe the problem is that people put too much of their stock in their sexual identity?

If I were gay, I wouldn't flaunt my orientation as my identity. I wouldn't be super into the communal aspect. Sure, it'd be a hotly controversial part of me, and a part of me that will affect things I do, but it wouldn't be something I really put investment into. It'd just be part of who I am and that's it.

See if I were to put a lot of stock in that, I believe I'd be pretty offended at anything resembling opposition to that. I'd probably be pretty militant against stuff like this. I would be really into everything related to this part of me and dedicate my time, resources, and energy to it all. Like, I know me. When I'm really into something, I'm REALLY into something. This doesn't apply to everyone but you get my point?

So maybe, just maybe, people should not put so much stock in their sexual identity?

It's a bit more complicated than that.

I think that people care about the way non-straight characters are portrayed in media because it so heavily impacts how people are treated in real life. Things like bisexual characters "pretending to be bisexual to get back at their fathers but actually straight" (like Soleil apparently is according to that article, though it didn't explain which support this is actually revealed in), characters described as just "going through a phase" or being written off as gay/lesbian even though they show attraction to both genders... I find it all really irritating.

It's not because bisexuality is synonymous with my identity, because it really isn't. Like you said you would, I consider it just a minor part of myself and don't go around talking about it constantly or getting involved in "the community". I get annoyed by it because I am tired of the responses I get and comments people say, knowingly or otherwise, in real life. Even if you don't put much stock in your sexual identity It's so frustrating to constantly hear people saying things like bisexuality doesn't exist, or that they are lying, or deceitful... and those are really common things to hear. I don't get angry when I see bisexual characters presented badly because it offends me personally, because it doesn't. I get angry because it's having media like that that reinforces those things people say to me in real life, and when people insult me like that in real life it does offend me.

I'm not saying Fates overall is bad in this regard. Syalla and Zero both seem fine to me, and I am still overjoyed that they were included at all. I'm also far more concerned about how badly written this support is than it's connotations, I'm just explaining why it's something I care about.

Edited July 2, 2015 by EJ107

[ArticRalts]

You guys realize the fact that she NEVER marries a fellow lady means she's not nearly Lesbian or even Bisexual word of God here is that she actually isn't into other ladies that way no matter what she may say or do.

[Jackolantern282]

What I'm seeing here in general, is...

A lack of comprehension of the actual conversation

Complaints about the stupidity of Soleil's character and/or conversation(s)

LGBT being offended

I won't blame any camp here. I can understand assuming things before reading into them. I can understand disliking a characters' writing, or thinking something is poorly written.

With those being offended, it's just probably a sign of them being hurt, but using their energy to complain instead of helping themselves.

By golly, if you're hurting because of who you are, get help.

And I can certainly understand being offended or hurt.

I haven't been hurt much. Most of my hurt has been my problem, and others haven't been so lucky.

I've been hurt before. For years I put a ton of stock into my intelligence. I was a perfectionist.

When someone criticized me, or if I got something wrong, I would flip my sh**.and cry.

If someone laughed at me, I'd take it super personally. If someone corrected me, even if they weren't mean about it, I'd get hurt.

It'd be worse when it was unwarranted. When people were mean, not just critical.

My problem? Putting too much stock into what others thought of me. Was intelligence bad? No. But, I shouldn't have been so invested in it emotionally.

Think of the last time you got offended regarding something you put so much into. I can understand this, and I bet you all can too.

It's a bit more complicated than that.

I think that people care about the way non-straight characters are portrayed in media because it so heavily impacts how people are treated in real life. I find things like bisexual characters "pretending to be bisexual to get back at their fathers but actually straight" (like Soleil apparently is according to that article, though it didn't reveal which support this is mentioned in) or not existing at all or characters written off as being gay/lesbian even though they show attraction to both genders... I find it all really irritating.

It's not because bisexuality is synonymous with my identity, because it really isn't. Like you said you would be, I consider it just a minor part of my character and don't get involved much in "the community". It's because I am tired of the responses and comments people say, knowingly or otherwise, in real life. Even if you don't put much stock in your identity It's annoying to constantly hear people saying things like bisexuality doesn't exist, or that they are lying, or deceitful... and those are really common things to hear. I don't get angry when I see characters presented badly because it offends me personally, because it doesn't, I get angry because it's having media like this that reinforces those things that people say to or around me in real life that get under my skin.

As another example, Look at women who get angry about female characters who are portrayed badly. You can say that they are just "putting too much stock in their gender" and shouldn't be offended, but if somebody is harassed by a creepy guy on the bus and has men making sexist comments at them you can see why a particularly bad portrayal of a female character will get under their skin.

The thing is, is that leaving something out doesn't immediately mean dismissal of it not existing. I agree with you on the sexualization.

But...just because a game doesn't have female characters doesn't mean it's automatically sexist against women. And same goes for men as well.

Take things by a case-by-case basis.

Here, in Fire Emblem, this sexuality argument doesn't hold a lot of stock. There aren't a ton of LGBT characters here to begin with in this established fantasy world, and Fates is no different.

Now let's say you made a movie about MLK with no African Americans.

That would deserve criticism. THAT is exclusion. That is racist.

How about a movie realistically based in China, but with all causcasians? Racist.

How about a movie based on a true story in Los Angeles, with all men. That's sexist.

How about a game where every woman has big jiggly boobs (Senran Kagura). Unrealistic, sexist, objectifying.

So anyways...while people aren't exactly right in their criticisms of all this Fates situation, I certainly understand them.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[Ambulz]

Gods, this has spun out into a whole big thing, hasn't it? I admit I based my initial reactions on how others were reacting at first and I didn't even read very far into the context. A day and a half later now, and to me it's just another support where a few certain aspects have been blown wholly out of proportion.

At this point, the only thing I'm salty about is that Soleil isn't the lesbian option. And that's not a big deal.

[Jackolantern282]

To be honest this whole dilemma is not a big deal.

And here I am: I've put too much stock into trying to explain all this.

I'm going to do some other things with my time...

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[Shadow Knight]

I'm not homosexual but to me the supports don't even seem that offensive or wrong. They just seem incredibly dumb. It's like the person writing them thought that she would seem cute or something because of how shy she is.

It's... frankly it's just plain ridiculous and if anything the support just reinforces why you shouldn't try to suppress your wiring in the first place. If you're going to have a character commit to a certain gender than have them commit. But tbh I fully expected this with an early serious outing in LGBT relationship representation. It's the same thing that happens with race, gender, or any other inclusion topic. The first time is a complete train wreck, but as characters who represent minorities/interest groups begin to gain popularity so does their exposure and the respect that the developers have for them.

At least they added LGBT characters in the game this time around. And it's not like they left it up to interpretation either, there were explicit characters who could fall in love with members of the same sex. It will only get better with each game that gets released as long as the backlash is not too serious.

On the other hand if the backlash and controversy is too great it might dissuade IS from trying this again for awhile.

But in the end it's just typical piss-poor media work focused on generating controversy in order to increase click-throughs and page-views instead of handling the issue maturely and properly.

[Mad_Scientist]

So I saw a post going around that claimed that Solei is actually heterosexual but pretended to be bisexual in order to anger her father.

There was no source for this claim, and the post wouldn't go into details or provide an actual translation of the scene "because of spoilers".

I'm pretty sure this is all BS, but anyone here know anything about it?

EDIT: Oops, missed some of the posts mentioning this. Anyways, I remain highly skeptical about this claim.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Mad_Scientist

[Reflex]

https://imgur.com/gallery/Z46S9

If this summary of the Soleil situation hasn't been posted yet, it should be read. And I will repost it every page until everyone has read it.

[Mad_Scientist]

https://imgur.com/gallery/Z46S9

If this summary of the Soleil situation hasn't been posted yet, it should be read. And I will repost it every page until everyone has read it.

I saw that, and I don't believe it. The post claims it's going to refute the post, yet then refuses to actually post a translation or even mention a specific scene (is it a support conversation? What?) that does so because of "spoilers." I could be wrong, but for now I call BS on the "pretending to be bisexual" thing.

[EJ107]

I saw that, and I don't believe it. The post claims it's going to refute the post, yet then refuses to actually post a translation or even mention a specific scene (is it a support conversation? What?) that does so because of "spoilers." I could be wrong, but for now I call BS on the "pretending to be bisexual" thing.

I love how it talks about her as if she has some intricate character ark that culminates in the "reveal" that she is really straight.

Even if there is a specific support that says this, which is still up in the air, 95% of players won't ever actually see it.