Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive

[Irysa]

...I really don't think it's possible for the commuinity to get worse at this point. We're at a lower than LoL level, just not as big.

It can always get worse as long as the divisions can increase further. Whilst there are definitely divides between the old guard and new arrivals as it stands, I think that divisions within each sub group could stand to become accentuated.

And really this-- it's not even that bad. There's worse tropes, and worse supports ahem.

That's fairly subjective. I agree that there's worse, but when you're at a point of shifting through the muck, there's not much value in trying to categorise the degrees. Ultimately your own lived experiences and preferences will determine what you find to be the most "problematic" dialogue.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Irysa

[Tamarsamar]

granted my ideal conclusion would be to remove self insert romance all together, or make sure that you can't fuck children in the first place, but that has less of a chance of happening then nintendo taking notes about this event.

Which is really unfortunate, but I would really appreciate at least that second item, and more importantly, I would also appreciate if they fired whichever creep failed to understand such a rudimentary, fundamental, and basic concept such as consent. (And, quite frankly, the most offensive thing in this thread by far is the sheer number of posters in here who do not understand that either and would rather turn this into an "us vs. them" polemic. Seriously, grow up, guys.)

Most importantly, however, I hope that NOA localization gives me another reason to provide funding for their paychecks.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tamarsamar

[eclipse]

Oh, and before it gets out of hand. . .

This is NOT the thread to bitch about the community. You're a part of it. Complaining is part of the problem. If it's that bad, do something to improve it, or go elsewhere.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I... I was linked to this thread from a "major" gaming news outlet. What? This was not the way I expected to end up posting on SF again.

What started off as a small comment ended up as a long-winded meander through queer theory, oh my.

[spoiler=Long Digression in Queer Theory Read at Your Own Peril]I guess the one thing I would add to this is beware the assumption that Soliel is *intended* to be lesbian/bi. Fantastical sexual deviance is very very different from real lived queerness, and a fictional character's over-the-top attraction to girls is not necessarily indication she was intended to be read as a queer person. It's much more likely that in the mind of the writers this trait was simply a set up for ad-nausea gender-bender jokes, and her essential "straightness" was never really in question (think of the way that women are free to admire each others physical beauty without being read as "gay"--I suspect this is more like than not an expression of a similar, though more pronounced idea, that it is possible to express same-sex desire without being a "homosexual subject"). Soliel never, to my knowledge, self identifies as queer or lesbian or bi or anything--in fact no such word ever seems to be used about her (could be wrong about this one, though). This points to me to the notion that her desire for women while real is intended as nothing more than a kind of surface performance--if anything it seems her desire is more towards the *feminine*, as seen in Foleo, rather than to women in particular, although she couches it in terms of women.

Of course, in counterpoint to this we know she *does* expresses very real desire for women, which she is self-conscious of, so I can see where a reading of her as a queer subject might come from. This is less to suggest she be beyond critique and more to suggest that that critique probably shouldn't be rooted in the assumption that she was "supposed" to be queer. In fact, this almost suggest something worse, a world where queerness is a kind of disassociative heterosexuality, where genuine queer subjects are impossible since they simply become folded back into heterosexual ones--notice how in her interactions with women she overwhelmingly takes a "mans" aggressive role, even while she's very "feminine" in presentation. This also suggests new readings of that support where she argues with the fujoshi--both of them are shown to be engaging in this distancing strategy. She desires women in the same way the fujoshi is supposed to imagine a boy desiring boys, as something at arms length from the self. We can see her perhaps performing heterosexual desire from the "male" position, in a kind of flip dismissal of her own "femininity". Of course, were this desire actually enacted, it would be something like the butch (the "masculine" lesbian), but it isn't, and that's the very point, this contradiction in terms between performed "maleness" and embodied "femininity". ...maybe, but I'm getting into waters that are making me uncomfortable, hence the scare quotes.

It needs to be reiterated--what we're looking at (perhaps) is not a queer subjectivity but a heterosexual fantasy that touches on queer things (of course, I wouldn't be a good queer scholar if I suggested those were actually entirely discreet). When Soliel aggressively flirts with women she is doing it in a kind of drag, but shes also enacting a kind of aggressive (but also sentimental) sexuality that "more ok" because shes a women. This makes sense if we read her as a fantasy site of the male player. Alternatively, this also suggests an entirely different reading in a Takarazuka context, where sex is downplayed in favor of a nebulous "beauty", and the question of gender is elided because were talking about relationships that happen on a totally non-physical level. In fact, looking back I'm more inclined towards this one since she doesn't engage in any illicit physical activity towards women--for example, groping excused by "but were both girls". This is also worth serious critique as a general rule, since it constitutes a shocking dismissal of queer persons (of course, queer person-hood is much less strong in Japan, where queerness has long been considered a safe domain of fantasy). This is of course all to say that when it turns out she desires men all along there should be nothing surprising about it--since what we're looking at is probably nothing more than a conduit of male heterosexual desire. This character isn't real, there is no "real" lesbian underneath her performance, only a male writer.

Counterpoint--queerness has totally been gaining traction in Japan in recent years. What we might also be seeing is a "transitional" character--a character written in a culture with a kind of growing awareness that there is such a thing as "queer people" but one that doesn't quite know what to do with it yet and has one foot in two worlds (much like our own really). In which case what we might be seeing multiple strains of queer identity being worked out--the heterosexual fantasy coming into contact with the lived experience. Of course, the resulting hybrid is pretty awful, which is sadly par for the course. With this in mind I will also totally defend readings of Soliel as queer, especially because ambiguity is so essential to what constitutes queerness in the first place. There is plenty here in her narrative to look at it and see a queer person, and from that draw legitimately bad conclusions--I probably don't need to rehash those at this point. Simply because someone probably wasn't written as queer doesn't mean they can't be read as it.

Also the original support conversation has serious consent issues and is gross, even if it isn't "date rape" per se (whatever still totally disrespectful and awful behavior close enough).

Why was this post ultimately ignored entirely? This is a pretty good post and really is why Soleil is written the way she was. A male writer trying to be funny and project his own obviously heterosexual idea into the character. However, i feel like the localization is actually going to remove a lot of the aspects of perceived queerness from the character. We already have a character (Camilla) whos sexuality is very tenuous, but without it crossing too many boundaries. (i dont think Camilla's lines are gonna get heavily edited in localization tbh) Soleil is a different and yes, more problematic bag of peanuts than Camilla.

Looks like a bad support, but people are blowing it way out of proportion.

I actually agree with this. Like, i see why people are mad about it, and its really a dumpy ass support (and her mum's support is shit too). But like, its pretty par for the course cartoon BS im seeing in this support. Its a different time now, so thats why people are all up in arms. 20 years ago, this kind of support would have been seen as ubiquitously humorous. Japan has been a bit lacking in moving with the times on certain subjects. Queer baiting and jokes at expense of that are no longer really acceptable or even seen as very funny. Which is why i think Soleil is going to get a massive overhaul when the game jumps across the pond.

Believe me, it can get worse. But the rules here make it so that it doesn't, at least on this site.

However, I don't see why you'd want to be a part of a community you have such a low opinion of (this goes for several of you).

I think people are using SF as a mouthpiece and podium of sorts to air the dirty laundry. Theres too many amazing people here and in other parts of the webz for the fandom for me to outright abhor it.

As for Soleil herself...this is my idea for her to be localized...?

I was thinking of how they could rewrite Soleil

[2:26:18 PM] Floki Laufeyson: Instead of being all about "cute girls" and stuff, they could make her a flirt and a hopeless romantic. And why she freezes up on the battlefield isn't because of all the cute girls, but her thinking about beautiful people not being able to fall in love anymore because they are dead. And that idea is just really hard for her to deal with. And herself being the cause of it, causes a great deal of anxiety.

her supports with Mamui could be more like how since hes a prince, Soleil imagines all the fairy tale stuff Mamui gets to do. And she flirts with him hoping for the fairy tale. Mamui would discuss how his life is far from a fairy tale, and is actually quite difficult because of how he was treated. (like a bargaining chip) etc. The S Support has Soleil understanding that but still being sad. Mamui says "But its ok, I can at least give you the fairy tale of marrying a prince."

and her supports with her mum would be like Soleil wanting to her mother to read her a story.

"But Soleil, you are too old for fairy stories. Oh well ok, ill read one."

later supports have her mother reading the part of a story about a war, and Soleil says "oh skip that part, lets get to the romance!" and her mum going "Soleil, you cant just skip that part. In real life, you cant just skip it. One must understand that there is ugliness in the world."

The A one would have Soleil explaining why she wants to "skip that part".

"We are always at war and it hurts. WHen im in a story, I want it to be fun and full of romance. Reality often doesn't have room for that, like you said. So let me imagine this time with you."

[2:31:36 PM] Floki Laufeyson: PLEASE, LOCALIZATION TEAM.

she should have her head in the clouds, not be obsessed with "cute girls" and the game cracking jokes about that.

[2:32:30 PM] Floki Laufeyson: Inigo had his head in the clouds and this could be the aspect she inherits.

While i think people might get angry if localization removed the "girl lover" aspect, i think it would actually be in the character's best interest to do so. Instead of Girl Lover, she can be totally hopelessly romantic and fawn over pretty things. Liking to be around girls because they are pretty and discuss feminine things. But the thing she inherits from her father would be the romantic idealism.

[Tryhard]

I actually agree with this. Like, i see why people are mad about it, and its really a dumpy ass support (and her mum's support is shit too). But like, its pretty par for the course cartoon BS im seeing in this support. Its a different time now, so thats why people are all up in arms. 20 years ago, this kind of support would have been seen as ubiquitously humorous. Japan has been a bit lacking in moving with the times on certain subjects. Queer baiting and jokes at expense of that are no longer really acceptable or even seen as very funny. Which is why i think Soleil is going to get a massive overhaul when the game jumps across the pond.

That makes it sound like you don't agree with me normally or that my thought that things have gone a little too far over this is strange. ;_;

People do find some things fine and others not, I think people pick and choose a lot, especially considering what we've seen is in FE14.

Still a bad support, though, and probably one that could have been easily avoidable. Oh well.

[Loki Laufeyson]

That makes it sound like you don't agree with me normally or that my thought that things have gone a little too far over this is strange. ;_;

People do find some things fine and others not, I think people pick and choose a lot, especially considering what we've seen is in FE14.

Still a bad support, though, and probably one that could have been easily avoidable. Oh well.

No no, its not you personally im addressing there, but the opinion expressed. :B Like you know, people being all "You lot are overreacting" and usually its like "NO WE ARENT OMG!" Hue~

It is an easily avoidable situation with Soleil, which is why i strongly suspect huge overhaul in translation

[Tryhard]

No no, its not you personally im addressing there, but the opinion expressed. :B Like you know, people being all "You lot are overreacting" and usually its like "NO WE ARENT OMG!" Hue~

It is an easily avoidable situation with Soleil, which is why i strongly suspect huge overhaul in translation

Ah, right.

The best word to describe this support for me is 'cringey'. It's like a friend telling a racist or sexist joke to an audience who aren't up for it, and waiting for the inevitable telling off or else an awkward silence ensues. Cue the difference between cultures here.

Though I'm not really familiar too much with the localization in Awakening, wasn't it that Henry and Nowi (and others too, I think, though I can't remember who) had vastly different characterization in the Japanese dialogue? I'd imagine it might be the same sort of thing. I'd strain to say that they could make it worse.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tryhard

[Loki Laufeyson]

Yeah, Henry was your basic, semi-edgy somewhat mopey guy in the Japanese version of FE13. Kind of a bit fat cliche, tbh. Localization made him hilarious trying to breathe new life into that kind of character. A cheery but sadistic mage is funner than Mr. Serious Pants We've All Met A Thousand Times Before.

Nowi, i dont remember what she was like in the Japanese version, but i do think they made her more of a teenager and less of an overt child in localization?
One character from fe13 that got somewhat of an overhaul, was Sully. She has far far more emphasis on her gender in the Japanese version. And not in a good way. The localization made her kinder to other female characters, and in general more about improving herself and not a manhater.

[Mad_Scientist]

so all the supports weren't written by the same group? cause that would explain a lot of the inconsistency's of awakening.

Yah, big games like this often have a team of writers working on them, especially to fill in all the side details (such as supports.)

Okay, regarding the character, I've yet to actually express my view. I think this support is horrifying, and not just almost offensive, but downright offensive.

I don't think it was intended to be that way, or to evoke the idea of gay conversion therapy.

Regardless of intent, they screwed up, and wrote something that did evoke that idea.

Soleil was probably not conceived as a "lesbian" per se. We all know how Fire Emblem characters sometimes have a gimmick to them, and sometimes this gimmick is basically the entire character. This is already frustrating in the best of cases, because it leads to shallow, one note characters.

Well, Soleil is clearly a character whose gimmick is that she loves the ladies. She's an even bigger ladies (wo)man than her father. She loves, loves, LOVES cute girls so much she constantly obsesses over them and constantly flirts with them and literally faints from seeing them and her personal skill is "girl lover" for crying out loud.

And so, regardless of whether words like "lesbian" or "bisexual" entered the minds of the people who wrote Soleil, what they created was a lesbian (or extremely lesbian leaning bisexual) character. Because they created a woman who is clearly attracted to other women, and that's what a freaking lesbian or bisexual woman is!

They were already on shaky ground just with this, because they had turned a sexuality into a character gimmick and made it THE central factor to her character. But then they then popped this woman-loving woman into a game design that had her able to marry a bunch of dudes. And came up with supports to try and justify it.

This is bad. It plays into terrible stereotypes about lesbians, that they can be "cured", that they just need to find the "right" man and they'll change their tune. Even if you view Soleil as technically bisexual (just with a strong leaning towards women) it then plays into terrible stereotypes and views about bisexual women, that they will never be happy unless they date a man, and will always eventually leave any woman they date in order to be with a guy. (Some lesbians actually refuse to even date bisexual women because this view is so ingrained.)

And so not only did they turn a character's sexuality into a cheap gimmick, they also played to terrible harmful views and stereotypes.

And then they made things even worse, with this atrocious Male Kamui support.

Fact: Male Kamui DRUGS her without her consent or knowledge, and this drug is some sort of magic hallucinogen.

Fact: Soleil "falls in love" with Male Kamui as a direct result of being drugged without her knowledge.

Fact: Soleil showed zero interest in Kamui before the drug, because he's a man.

This is horrifying. This is offensive. This is disgusting. Regardless of Soleil's sexuality, this is terrible.

And the fact that this happens to a character who is a lesbian, or at the very least a strongly lesbian leaning bisexual woman, is even worse. Because it does in some ways come off like gay conversion therapy. Was that the intent? Of course not. Was that the result? YES.

This isn't just people being over sensitive. This is people seeing a horrible portrayal and a horrible bit of writing, and having the subtext of that writing remind them of something in the real world that is a terrible atrocity.

By the way, subtext. That's important to keep in mind. How can we criticize Fire Emblem for poor writing, for being blatant and obvious in it's villains, for lacking subtlety, for being unable to use subtext and hints to create a more nuanced story, yet then completely ignore the (accidental) subtext in a piece of writing when we don't like it? "Oh, it's not TECHNICALLY gay conversion therapy, so the fact that he literally drugged her and caused her to be attracted to him when she wasn't before doesn't matter, and the people who think it's like gay conversion therapy are just being over sensitive tumblrinas"

No.

This is a terrible bit of writing, terrible from all perspectives, that has horrible implications that bring up ideas of gay conversation therapy and the view that lesbians can be "cured". It's bad, it never should have been in the game. I'm a huge Fire Emblem fan, but I cannot defend this.

That doesn't mean the game is trash, or that there aren't good parts, or even that I won't eventually end up buying it (especially depending on how/if Nintendo responds to this and how the localization handles it). But I'm not going to cover my eyes and pretend this is anything but terrible and offensive.

[eclipse]

Post 459, no I'm not quoting that.

May I suggest reading her other supports? She explicitly states that she's capable of forming romantic relationships with men in one of them.

[Mad_Scientist]

Post 459, no I'm not quoting that.

May I suggest reading her other supports? She explicitly states that she's capable of forming romantic relationships with men in one of them.

Haha, I do tend to make lengthy posts. Sorry.

Given a lot of her supports, that seems a bit out of character, but if I recall she still says she still prefers women generally. But you could read her character as a lesbian leaning bisexual.

By which I mean, labels like "lesbian" and "gay" and "bisexual" are fairly imprecise, and can't fully cover human sexuality. You can have someone who is almost exclusively attracted to men, but finds a small number of women attractive. Technically that person would be bi, but calling them bi might be a bit misleading as it implies to many people an equal attraction to men and women.

Soleil clearly does not have an equal attraction to men and women. She is mostly attracted to women. Heck, the end of the Male Kamui x Soleil support specifically has him stating how her flirting with other men isn't likely to be an issue.

Again, you can read her as a lesbian leaning bi woman. That does not change the facts that:

A) Her sexuality, her attraction to women, is treated as a gimmick

B) Despite her love for women, she cannot marry any of them. Not even Female Kamui

C) She can instead marry a bunch of guys

D) She is drugged by Male Kamui without her consent or knowledge.

E) She shows no attraction to Male Kamui before she is drugged.

F) That a male character drugging a woman who loves other women and who has shown no attraction to him so far, and the drug causes her to hallucinate, and then as a result of the drugging she falls in love with the male character she showed no interest in before, that this scenario is going to remind people of gay conversion therapy.

[Pretty_Handsome]

The blatant facts are though, it's highly doubtful this is going to scratch anything but the Tumblrinas.

If you were already upset about the game and it's direction, this really isn't a game changer. Don't get the game, it's not like you were expecting much anyway.

At the same time, those who are throwing their arms up in despair over this... are rather small amounts.

And then look at the sales already-- you're seeing 300K+-- this game is going to eclipse even Awakening. [Which is sad, considering the other, more important flaws (Ahem!DLC policy so atrocious it makes Capcom, EA, and Activision seem fine.)] The few Tumblrinas who go "Nope. I'm done." over this support? They're a tiny teardrop in the ocean.

And bigger- the controversy? Controversy doesn't hurt games. See GTA. See Hatred. This isn't the kind of Controversy that gets games pulled from the shelves-- which is the only way it's harmful. It's going to bring Fates, an Fire Emblem in general even more into the spotlight. IS won't miss them, they're getting more money rolling.

I'm getting Hoshido anyway but still this is very offensive and throw in Nohr's poor story and I see no reason to waste money on such an inferior and homophobic version even at half off.

[eclipse]

Haha, I do tend to make lengthy posts. Sorry.

Given a lot of her supports, that seems a bit out of character, but if I recall she still says she still prefers women generally. But you could read her character as a lesbian leaning bisexual.

By which I mean, labels like "lesbian" and "gay" and "bisexual" are fairly imprecise, and can't fully cover human sexuality. You can have someone who is almost exclusively attracted to men, but finds a small number of women attractive. Technically that person would be bi, but calling them bi might be a bit misleading as it implies to many people an equal attraction to men and women.

Soleil clearly does not have an equal attraction to men and women. She is mostly attracted to women. Heck, the end of the Male Kamui x Soleil support specifically has him stating how her flirting with other men isn't likely to be an issue.

Again, you can read her as a lesbian leaning bi woman.

My space bar's being a pain, so I'll keep it short.

She explicitly states that she prefers girls, but can romance guys. That reads as bi to me, but I could have my terms mixed up. I don't think that bi means "likes both sexes equally". It's a spectrum.

Still, the male Kamui/Soliel support IS bad.

[Mad_Scientist]

My space bar's being a pain, so I'll keep it short.

She explicitly states that she prefers girls, but can romance guys. That reads as bi to me, but I could have my terms mixed up. I don't think that bi means "likes both sexes equally". It's a spectrum.

Still, the male Kamui/Soliel support IS bad.

Well, okay. As I said, I don't think that IS had specific labels like "lesbian" or "bisexual" in mind when they came up with her. They just had "girl who really really really loves girls" in mind, which would allow for her to be either a lesbian or a bisexual woman who generally prefers women.

The latter option makes the fact that she can romance at least SOME guys not as bad, or it would if she could romance women. But the fact that she can only romance guys and not women means it is still pretty terrible. Again, the stereotype that bi women are really just straight and will always leave women for men is so strong that some lesbians, who are part of the LGBT community and therefore people you'd expect to be less receptive to negative stereotypes about sexuality, will refuse to date bi women.

(Interestingly enough, the stereotype for bi men is generally the other way around, that they're actually gay, and thus will leave any women they date for men. In both cases, the assumption is that anyone bi will always eventually crave a relationship with a man.)

And glad we're in agreement about the Male Kamui x Soleil support. I'm sure someone at IS just thought it would be funny, but man did they not think it through.

[Pretty_Handsome]

My space bar's being a pain, so I'll keep it short.She explicitly states that she prefers girls, but can romance guys. That reads as bi to me, but I could have my terms mixed up. I don't think that bi means "likes both sexes equally". It's a spectrum.Still, the male Kamui/Soliel support IS bad.

Yet she can only S Rank guys.

[Mad_Scientist]

Yet she can only S Rank guys.

Yep. Which is frustrating. I'm all for bisexual representation, and having a bi woman who prefers women but finds some guys attractive too is fine... if they actually let her be bi and romance girls. But nope. And this also fits into all the class S and similar crap that is common in Japan, the idea that lesbian and bi women may play around with girls especially when younger, but ultimately they'll all outgrow it and settle down with a man.

It seems to me that this situation is partially the result of them copying the marriage/support system from Awakening. And I don't just mean the fact that S supports and marriage exist, but rather the combination of certain factors.

That every single opposite sex support can result in an S rank and marriage, unless the characters are siblings/parents.

That every character can support the main character, and thus every character can marry the main character if they are the opposite sex (exception being if they are the avatar's child).

That every child character can support the other child characters, plus their parents (and of course the avatar).

It's that first part, that every opposite sex support can lead to marriage, that is the biggest problem. And that's honestly something I wish they'd gotten rid of regardless. I like marriage and romance, but I preferred it when some opposite sex supports were just platonic friendships. But I digress.

They made this character who loves girls, and then threw her into a gameplay system where it was the default that she'd be able to support a bunch of guys, and that she'd be able to marry any guy she supports. Rather than change the rigid system from Awakening, they just wrote supports to try and justify it somehow. And so we ended up with this mess.

I'm guessing the idea for same-sex marriage didn't get added till later in the game. Soleil actually being able to marry a woman (or more than one woman) wouldn't have made the drugging any better, but it would have at least changed the absurdity of having her state to male Kamui that she "fell in love with him the moment she saw him as a girl" yet still being unable to marry female Kamui, who is, you know, a girl all the time and not just the result of hallucinogenic magic powder.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Mad_Scientist

[NekoKnight]

I was thinking of how they could rewrite Soleil

[2:26:18 PM] Floki Laufeyson: Instead of being all about "cute girls" and stuff, they could make her a flirt and a hopeless romantic. And why she freezes up on the battlefield isn't because of all the cute girls, but her thinking about beautiful people not being able to fall in love anymore because they are dead. And that idea is just really hard for her to deal with. And herself being the cause of it, causes a great deal of anxiety.

her supports with Mamui could be more like how since hes a prince, Soleil imagines all the fairy tale stuff Mamui gets to do. And she flirts with him hoping for the fairy tale. Mamui would discuss how his life is far from a fairy tale, and is actually quite difficult because of how he was treated. (like a bargaining chip) etc. The S Support has Soleil understanding that but still being sad. Mamui says "But its ok, I can at least give you the fairy tale of marrying a prince."

and her supports with her mum would be like Soleil wanting to her mother to read her a story.

"But Soleil, you are too old for fairy stories. Oh well ok, ill read one."

later supports have her mother reading the part of a story about a war, and Soleil says "oh skip that part, lets get to the romance!" and her mum going "Soleil, you cant just skip that part. In real life, you cant just skip it. One must understand that there is ugliness in the world."

The A one would have Soleil explaining why she wants to "skip that part".

"We are always at war and it hurts. WHen im in a story, I want it to be fun and full of romance. Reality often doesn't have room for that, like you said. So let me imagine this time with you."

[2:31:36 PM] Floki Laufeyson: PLEASE, LOCALIZATION TEAM.

she should have her head in the clouds, not be obsessed with "cute girls" and the game cracking jokes about that.

[2:32:30 PM] Floki Laufeyson: Inigo had his head in the clouds and this could be the aspect she inherits.

While i think people might get angry if localization removed the "girl lover" aspect, i think it would actually be in the character's best interest to do so. Instead of Girl Lover, she can be totally hopelessly romantic and fawn over pretty things. Liking to be around girls because they are pretty and discuss feminine things. But the thing she inherits from her father would be the romantic idealism.

I think they should redirect her characterization into safer territory, rather than unnecessarily add new elements into it. It's as simple as turning "girl lover" into "cute lover". All instances of lines referring to Soleil's attraction to cute girls can just be reframed as being obsessed with cute things. Players will still suspect she's bisexual and if they're aware of the Japanese version, they'll know she's hard gay strongly inclined towards women but we'll escape all the unfortunate implications of her supports.

[goodperson707]

^ no matter how you frame it she still gets a pretty large boost when fighting with a girl. Any girl regardless of looks. So yeah kind of impossible to completely mask it but if they frame it or mask it bad (or to some people at all) it might lead to more unfortunate implications by trying to hide it, and might even lead to exaggerated rumours of what she is like in the Japanese version, japenese Erika/Empriam support rumours anyone?

[Autism]

All of you who are against the support are two things:

1) reading it totally wrong.

None of this has anything to do with date rape or gay conversion. No, you want it to regard those topics so that you can whine and rail against it. Corrin and Soleil's conversations are about her SHYNESS. She faints when she sees a fyne ass chick, and Corrin wants to stop that. obviously.

2) completely autistic

It's not a far stretch to assume you folks reside on tumblr from time to time. And I'll make that assumption. Get out into the real world. Play the game yourself. Learn some JPN and actually translate the conversations for yourselves. Find some people that fluently speak Japanese and English and see what they get out of the conversations.

Like, goddamn.

[xaszatm]

The blatant facts are though, it's highly doubtful this is going to scratch anything but the Tumblrinas.

If you were already upset about the game and it's direction, this really isn't a game changer. Don't get the game, it's not like you were expecting much anyway.

At the same time, those who are throwing their arms up in despair over this... are rather small amounts.

And then look at the sales already-- you're seeing 300K+-- this game is going to eclipse even Awakening. [Which is sad, considering the other, more important flaws (Ahem!DLC policy so atrocious it makes Capcom, EA, and Activision seem fine.)] The few Tumblrinas who go "Nope. I'm done." over this support? They're a tiny teardrop in the ocean.

And bigger- the controversy? Controversy doesn't hurt games. See GTA. See Hatred. This isn't the kind of Controversy that gets games pulled from the shelves-- which is the only way it's harmful. It's going to bring Fates, an Fire Emblem in general even more into the spotlight. IS won't miss them, they're getting more money rolling.

I'm glad you're optimistic because I'm not. This just happened to be the first disturbing thing that was true. I've seen so many threads in other forums popping up screaming about how a certain character rapes somone. Or how there is gore porn in the game. Or how this game should be banned from the US and started a petition to attempt it. There is so much negative around this game and so much pushing of "THIS IS EVIL DON"T BUY IT BECAUSE OF X" whether X is true or not that I think this game's going to tank everywhere else. There are just so many people just tapdancingly happy this is true because "At least this game can die because it's no longer MY game". GAH! This is horrible! Just when this series was finally taking off it looks like it will be dashed and killed by a bunch of vindictive people.

[Hunter Nightblood]

All of you who are against the support are two things:

1) reading it totally wrong.

None of this has anything to do with date rape or gay conversion. No, you want it to regard those topics so that you can whine and rail against it. Corrin and Soleil's conversations are about her SHYNESS. She faints when she sees a fyne ass chick, and Corrin wants to stop that. obviously.

2) completely autistic

It's not a far stretch to assume you folks reside on tumblr from time to time. And I'll make that assumption. Get out into the real world. Play the game yourself. Learn some JPN and actually translate the conversations for yourselves. Find some people that fluently speak Japanese and English and see what they get out of the conversations.

Like, goddamn.

Really? Please tell me you are just trolling right now.

[Kirokan]

Really? Please tell me you are just trolling right now.

It may be best to ignore said new member. The controversy has largely calmed down, and the points they brought up were already addressed (translators like me to verify, people reading it correctly, etc.)

Though here's an interesting flow that shows how the controversy spread! Interesting to look at, cringe-worthy to remember. xD

[Airship Canon]

I'm glad you're optimistic because I'm not. This just happened to be the first disturbing thing that was true. I've seen so many threads in other forums popping up screaming about how a certain character rapes somone. Or how there is gore porn in the game. Or how this game should be banned from the US and started a petition to attempt it. There is so much negative around this game and so much pushing of "THIS IS EVIL DON"T BUY IT BECAUSE OF X" whether X is true or not that I think this game's going to tank everywhere else. There are just so many people just tapdancingly happy this is true because "At least this game can die because it's no longer MY game". GAH! This is horrible! Just when this series was finally taking off it looks like it will be dashed and killed by a bunch of vindictive people.

Can't say I'm too optimisitic.

I have a really low outlook on this particular entry, TBH.

There's glaring flaws right out of the gate that eclipse this, or frankly anything in the supports, several times over. [Again, DLC policy]

The thing is, though, sales are already kicking a lot of ass-- 300K in Japan, all physical copies sold out. No details on how the digital version is.

And really, that starts the machine. It's not going to even remotely be even dented by meaningless drivvel like this.

The vents will cool in a couple days and the fandom will be back to squealing over how they want to plow Camilla or have Xander ravish them.

[euklyd]

Really? Please tell me you are just trolling right now.

I mean given the fact that they joined three minutes before they made that post, and given their choice of username, it seems a safe assumption that they joined/made an alt entirely just to call people in this thread autistic

which seems like trolling to me

also lol I just saw rumors of like, "the scene was translated wrong he didn't spike the drink, he cast mind magicks directly"

which even if it were true isn't exactly any better lol

[arvilino]

My space bar's being a pain, so I'll keep it short.

She explicitly states that she prefers girls, but can romance guys. That reads as bi to me, but I could have my terms mixed up. I don't think that bi means "likes both sexes equally". It's a spectrum.

Still, the male Kamui/Soliel support IS bad.

Unless she "prefers" girls because she finds them cute in the way someone might find plushies or baby animals cute and is a "girl lover" the way someone could be an "animal lover" or "shoe lover". It may not be taken literally as loving something doesn't mean that mean the person is actually sexually attracted to it. Especially in this case if it was a habit formed from spiting Laswalds bad luck with women.