EJ107 Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) It's amazing when people declare standards the same across multiple countries when that's not the case. How hard is it to understand that, if Soleil was from an American game, I would be clearly defend her bisexuality or lesbian or whatever. But she isn't. She's from Japan, who makes millions of animes and short novels and gags and comedy theaters based on teasing the line but ultimately not. And yes, there have been plenty of animes and mangas and general Japanese media that have boys that show huge affection/love/hit on/kiss men but are clearly said not gay. The Japanese media don't care nearly as much about LBGT stigmas and using them wrongly. Imagine if Americans watched a show from Germany with a 16 year old kid drinking wine everyday. It would be declared an awful treatment of children, because of different cultural standards. Cultural differences don't change what something is, just how it's presented. If an anime shows me a banana and tells me it's an orange I'm still going to call it a banana and treat it like a banana. I learnt to mostly ignore the labels slapped to sexuality in japanese media long ago and judge the characters based on their behaviors. There is Yaoi out there where characters claim to be straight while frequently having sex with other men and being in a relationship with another man. Just because the show says those characters are straight isn't going to make me believe it. Edited July 5, 2015 by EJ107 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Cultural differences don't change what something is, just how it's presented. If an anime shows me a banana and tells me it's an orange I'm still going to call it a banana and treat it like a banana. I learnt to mostly ignore the labels slapped to sexuality in japanese media long ago and judge the characters based on their behaviors. There is Yaoi out there where characters claim to be straight while frequently having sex with other men and being in a relationship with another man. Just because the show says those characters are straight isn't going to make me believe it. It's kind of like the whole "older than she looks" thing that pops up in games and anime. You can say "she looks 10 but she's actually thousands of years old" but it won't change anything if she looks and acts like a child. *coughnowicough* This is a silly form of denial anyway because it's not like Soleil acts bisexual but claims otherwise. She's pretty vocal about the fact that she is bi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reflex Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) There's a clear difference between arguing how the character acts and what the writer intends. People who say Soleil isn't straight are for the former, I am firmly in the latter. Does Soleil show traits that she's bi? Sure. Is that what the writers intended? Most likely no. Edited July 5, 2015 by Reflex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty_Handsome Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I doubt it as the writing clearly betrays the writer's intent. She's into chicks. Yet she doesn't get a single S Rank with a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nym Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Umm you know there maybe a reason why Soleil can't marry others girls: the others girls are not bi or lesbians. For example: If another guy ask me to go out with him, I will say no because I'm not gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty_Handsome Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) They could have easily made some of them Bi or Lesbian as they have no problem making Soleil into guys. Heck, Shara is Bi. Edited July 5, 2015 by Pretty_Handsome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abysswalker25 Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Shara is Kamuisexual, like Tharja was for Robin. At least, that is my guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 They could have easily made some of them Bi or Lesbian as they have no problem making Soleil into guys. Heck, Shara is Bi. DING DING DING! Sharja and Kamui are Bi! Guess who still can't S-rank Soleil! Sharja and F-Kamui! GUESS WHY!? Oh that's right, Soleil is straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitezen Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) DING DING DING! Sharja and Kamui are Bi! Guess who still can't S-rank Soleil! Sharja and F-Kamui! GUESS WHY!? Oh that's right, Soleil is straight. Way to ignore the evidence the game itself gives you. If you're going to doubt that the character themselves saying they're into both boys and girls is accurate, you might as well just disregard any evidence the game gives you entirely. You could easily claim that all characters are secretly gay and the marriages are just pretend if you want to judge based on your own interpretation and no mechanics. But that would be inaccurate, or at least contradicted by other evidence provided. Fact is, sexual attraction doesn't equal willingness to marry. Flirting doesn't equal love. There is a separation between mechanics and characterization. Edited July 5, 2015 by Vitezen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) Way to ignore the evidence the game itself gives you. If you're going to doubt that the character themselves saying they'r'e into both boys and girls is inaccurate, you might as well just disregard any evidence the game gives you entirely. You could easily claim that all characters are secretly gay and the marriages are just pretend if you want to judge based on your own interpretation and no mechanics. But that would be inaccurate, or at least contradicted by other evidence provided. Fact is, sexual attraction doesn't equal willingness to marry. Flirting doesn't equal love. There is a separation between mechanics and characterization. Says the one ignoring the facts here. 1. All other romances between compatible orientations DO end in marriage. 2. Soleil cannot marry any women. And two of them are confirmed Bi. NEITHER can be married by Soleil. 3. Soleil can marry men. Her advances are nothing more than playing around. She's straight. As far as the claim goes, Occam's Razor kills it outright first. The claim is a leap of logic. Edited July 5, 2015 by Airship Canon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 and to think all of this came from the creepy fact that the game is still letting you marry children... i wouldn't mind it if the next game went back on several aspects of the relationship thing, or changed the core mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRSxIgnition Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Thing is, I just think that Soleil's apparent confused sexuality stems from bad writing and poor decisions on the part of IS. It's not a statement or offense of any kind, it's just them not thinking things through - again. Soleil should be able to romance female Kamui at the very least, since Kamui is already canonically Bi. This is IS' main slip up, likely only because they for some reason - either development or marketing wise - decided to limit themselves to 2 gay marriage options. Rgardless, the main issue I have with the support is that Soleil never gets a chance to say yes or no to the experiment. Kamui pulls a rather villain-like move and slips the powder into her drink. Even if he meant well, this NEEDS to be changed in the western release - hero and player characters should never pull jerk shit like this without player influence. I know that my Kamui would never do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty_Handsome Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) DING DING DING! Sharja and Kamui are Bi! Guess who still can't S-rank Soleil! Sharja and F-Kamui! GUESS WHY!? Oh that's right, Soleil is straight. Only she isn't based off her supports. All of her supports. It's extremely homophobic of them to have the only Bi Options being crazy heads and the person who ACTUALLY likes women and pursues them cannot S Rank any because she doesn't fit as "Crazy" and because they already have 1 Bi Options per gender thus they hit their "quota". Edited July 5, 2015 by Pretty_Handsome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ107 Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) I don't think the reason they didn't make Soleil a same sex marriage option is because she isn't crazy, that's a ridiculous thing to assume. I'm pretty sure they just wanted to start small so only went with two options, and wanted to make not!Tharja an option because it was fitting. I don't have a problem with any of that, but it did leave Soleil in an awkward spot. That combined with less than great writing on a lot of her supports has led to this. Honestly I wouldn't really want the sole same-sex option for females to be someone whose entire character revolved around liking women. At least Syalla and Zero are actual characters first and foremost, however quirky they are. and to think all of this came from the creepy fact that the game is still letting you marry children... i wouldn't mind it if the next game went back on several aspects of the relationship thing, or changed the core mechanics. I'm surprised nobody is talking about the Lutz/Midoriko marriages. At least in Awakening you could assume that the younger characters grew up before having children, but if you can get Kanna from the second gen that means reproducing with Lutz/Midoriko over the course of the game. That makes me more uncomfortable than even Nowi did. Edited July 5, 2015 by EJ107 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuuda Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Only she isn't based off her supports. All of her supports. It's extremely homophobic of them to have the only Bi Options being crazy heads and the person who ACTUALLY likes women and pursues them cannot S Rank any because she doesn't fit as "Crazy" and because they already have 1 Bi Options per gender thus they hit their "quota" extremely homophobic Move aside, Uganda. Yeah, sorry. Call me a little shit if you want, but that was just too amusing to pass on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jave Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 DING DING DING! Sharja and Kamui are Bi! Guess who still can't S-rank Soleil! Sharja and F-Kamui! GUESS WHY!? They're not attracted to each other? I mean, just because two people of the same gender are gay or bi does not mean they HAVE to fall in love and marry each other, right? Or am I being too crazy here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) It's extremely homophobic of them to have the only Bi Options being crazy heads and the person who ACTUALLY likes women and pursues them cannot S Rank any because she doesn't fit as "Crazy" and because they already have 1 Bi Options per gender thus they hit their "quota". Yeah, no. I can understand being disappointed with the way it worked out considering, but to call the creators or the game 'extremely homophobic' is ridiculous. Edited July 5, 2015 by Tryhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 They're not attracted to each other? I mean, just because two people of the same gender are gay or bi does not mean they HAVE to fall in love and marry each other, right? Or am I being too crazy here? When all other compatible sexualities have ability to romance, then hmm... Look, if it's a straight couple it always works here. If they can interact at all, they can marry, unless they're siblings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reflex Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Yeah, no. I can understand being disappointed with the way it worked out considering, but to call the creators or the game 'extremely homophobic' is ridiculous. They're not even arguing what the actual content is. This thread has become wish fulfillment to the point that arguments are being made to make other people non-straight just to even the ratio. They are "drugging" others without consent, one might say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twylis Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) Says the one ignoring the facts here. 1. All other romances between compatible orientations DO end in marriage. 2. Soleil cannot marry any women. And two of them are confirmed Bi. NEITHER can be married by Soleil. 3. Soleil can marry men. Her advances are nothing more than playing around. She's straight. As far as the claim goes, Occam's Razor kills it outright first. The claim is a leap of logic. I'm just gonna quote myself, because your reading comprehension seems to be lacking. This line of reasoning is kind of ridiculous given that Soleil having a gay marriage option in contingent on there being other female bi members of the army, with the only instance of that being a Hoshidan whose attraction to f!Kamui is implied to be a exceptional case (i.e. an "if it's you, it's okay" type thing). The only potential area of comparison is her support with f!Kamui, but that's also inconclusive as f!Kamui seemingly rejects her advances (despite being fine with Shara's). And seriously, come on. The Soleil/Foleo support: http://pastebin.com/mPyG72CG FOLEO: ... Um, er... Soleil, you do like girls, is that right? SOLEIL: Ahaha. Do you really need to ask after all this time? Of course I do! I love cute girls! FOLEO: Then are boys unacceptable? As, um... romantic partners...? SOLEIL: I wouldn't say unacceptable, but girls are preferable by far. I mean, like, boys don't have any beauty, right? Looking at them doesn't get me all fired up. Please note the context. Soleil is 100% bi; there's no two ways about it. It's just that nobody she supports with is. Edited July 5, 2015 by Twylis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 The main issue hasn't been about Soliel herself, but about Kamui slipping the magic powder into her drink without her knowledge. Even for someone naive to the ways of the world, it's a pretty not okay thing to do. Though this does make me recall Tharja cursing people without their consent in a lot of instances in Awakening. That's just as not okay as this, right? So I can finally be justified in my dislike of that character? I can give you an essay and a half about Tharja. . .via PM, if you don't mind me rambling. So its basically Lonqu 2.0, except a bisexual girl so everyone is up in arms made it through about half of gaijinhunters translation video and it seems like its basically bonding over fixing her problems (only this time its being a nympho rather than being afraid) Uhh. . .no. Lon'qu had a fear of women. Soliel wants to be around women. I disagree as they are around the same age. This is by far the worse Support they have ever created and it doesn't help that all of Soleil's supports are trash because it feels like they're trying to "Cure" her of liking girls every time she S Ranks a guy while denying her any female S Ranks. I think this doesn't happen in her support with Foleo. This is where I'd say OTP, but I think Foleo deserves better. What, you mean the crazies who don't understand the context of japanese trope comedy? The only people who think Soleil are lesbian/bisexual are westerners seeing unfiltered japanese tropes that are localized for a reason, because crap like this happens. -Throw a kid into a dark pit full of cats to cure their fear of felines? CHILD ABUSE. Except no, it's a simple gag in Ranma 1/2. -Naruto accidentally forced into kissing Sasuke? THEY MUST BE GAY. No wait, it's just a cultural level of friendship that is much farther apart in the west. -Hell, there's an anime right now that has a guy kissing other guys on a semi-regular basis. The crazies in this thread would declare him gay or at the very least bisexual because they simply do not understand cultural context. -Naoto from Persona 4 wants surgery to be a man! No, not really. She wants to be treated like a male because the japanese workforce as late as 2008 when the game came out was still incredibly sexist on how women were treated and respected. If you can't be respectful to everyone in this thread, including those you disagree with, don't post. ^ yeah people drug their friends all the time in real life to help them loosen up, actually i am being serious it is called alcohol. I mean if it was just a drink that happened to have more alcohol than soleil thought or just giving her some alcohol expressly just for the purpose of helping her relax would people be as outraged? People do NOT randomly slip other people alcohol. Like everything else, it's imbibed with consent. ^^ But consenting to drink a light beer is quite different than drinking heavy alcohol and a new drinker might not know the difference. And i am sure this happens in completely benign ways irl. It is not compelty respectful but hardly as bad as it is made out to be. The difference is on the label, and the drinks with heavier alcoholic content make my mouth tingle. The issue is CONSENT. Cuz muh feels, and drugs In soelil being a trigger that had no warning Either expound on this or keep it to yourself. Umm you know there maybe a reason why Soleil can't marry others girls: the others girls are not bi or lesbians. For example: If another guy ask me to go out with him, I will say no because I'm not gay. Excellent point. Shara's not an option, even on the third path - but that's because Shara's justifications for going after female Kamui are awful from my perspective. Shara is Kamuisexual, like Tharja was for Robin. At least, that is my guess. And this is why I think Shara's supports are bad. I would've loved to seen a support that could be applied to anyone. and to think all of this came from the creepy fact that the game is still letting you marry children... i wouldn't mind it if the next game went back on several aspects of the relationship thing, or changed the core mechanics. blame Kozaki for making Ignis the best-looking dude in Nohr Move aside, Uganda. Yeah, sorry. Call me a little shit if you want, but that was just too amusing to pass on. little Shuuda --- I like Nym's view of the situation best - Soliel's attraction is one-way, because everyone else is either straight or otherwise not interested in her. Which in turn makes another very interesting social statement, and one that I wouldn't mind being stated outright in a game (not out of hatred, but because it's something that needs to be said since not everyone can pick up on subtleties). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ107 Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) I like Nym's view of the situation best - Soliel's attraction is one-way, because everyone else is either straight or otherwise not interested in her. Which in turn makes another very interesting social statement, and one that I wouldn't mind being stated outright in a game (not out of hatred, but because it's something that needs to be said since not everyone can pick up on subtleties). This is what I assumed, and was fine with, but it still doesn't explain why female Kamui isn't an option for her. I was hoping it would be elaborated on in Kamui's supports with her, but she flirts outrageously with female Kamui (it almost feels incomplete without an S rank) and even if Kamui is male she says she fell in love with him after seeing him as a girl. I mean I'd have no issue with Soleil simply being the only girl interested in other girls (outside of Syalla's obsession with Kamui), but none of her supports read like that. If they toned down the girl obsession in her supports with male characters (particularly S rank) and gave her female Kamui supports a reason for the relationship to remain strictly platonic I wouldn't have a problem with her character, but the way she is feels like a mess. Edited July 5, 2015 by EJ107 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 This is what I assumed, and was fine with, but it still doesn't explain why female Kamui isn't an option for her. I was hoping it would be elaborated on in Kamui's supports with her, but she flirts outrageously with female Kamui (it almost feels incomplete without an S rank) and even if Kamui is male she says she fell in love with him after seeing him as a girl. I mean I'd have no issue with Soleil simply being the only girl interested in other girls (outside of Syalla's obsession with Kamui), but none of her supports read like that. If they toned down the girl obsession in her supports with male characters (particularly S rank) and gave her female Kamui supports a reason for the relationship to remain strictly platonic I wouldn't have a problem with her character, but the way she is feels like a mess. Perhaps Kamui thinks that Soliel is annoying? Or doesn't like Soliel's hair? There's a bajillion trivial reasons as to why female Kamui wouldn't be interested. The second paragraph is a fair compromise. If the writers wanted a female character that was an echo of her father, that's fine, but they really didn't need to give her his other traits (will go into this via PM if interested). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Perhaps Kamui thinks that Soliel is annoying? Or doesn't like Soliel's hair? There's a bajillion trivial reasons as to why female Kamui wouldn't be interested. The second paragraph is a fair compromise. If the writers wanted a female character that was an echo of her father, that's fine, but they really didn't need to give her his other traits (will go into this via PM if interested). Yet Kamui can marry anyone else who's compatible. Occam's Razor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twylis Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) Yet Kamui can marry anyone else who's compatible. Occam's Razor. Wouldn't Occam's Razor be to assume the character that literally claims to be bi is bi? Edited July 5, 2015 by Twylis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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