Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive

[Awakener_]

Drop the attitude, Awakener. People may have overreacted at this support, but your being all condescending certainly isn't going to make anyone want to admit that they may have jumped the gun either nor is it helping the fan base either. People who want to go on about how the people who are overreacting at stuff are "so stupid" or "such babies" are just as bad as the people who are doing the overreacting in the first place.

Regardless, this support is just bad writing all around, regardless of the angle you want to look at it.

Oh I'm sorry, people can whine that weeb craps is killing the franchise and all but I can't complain that people is literally doing their best to cause Fates to crush and burn? For my most anticipated game ever after Awakening? And to my most beloved video game franchise? People are calling this "date rape", that some really F##K UP shit to say.

Edit: I been enough angry for today, I'm just gonna sleep before I go even more crazy.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Awakener_

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

forgive me if i am wrong, but isn't the girl also a child character?

so not only is it date rape, its date raping a child.

bravo IS, i want self insert creepy romance out of my fire emblem

(haven't read the entire topic yet, just the first page, also if this can be in then why can't my vore fetish?)

Edited July 2, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[tofu]

Oh I'm sorry, people can whine that weeb craps is killing the franchise and all but I can't complain that people is literally doing their best to cause Fates to crush and burn? For my most anticipated game ever after Awakening? And to my most beloved video game franchise? People are calling this "date rape", that some really F##K UP shit to say.

Just because Fates is your (or anyone's) favourite game doesn't excuse it from legit criticism.

Edited July 2, 2015 by tofu

[Zachmac]

"I've never even matched up people, let alone giant reptiles!" - Robin

"Before marriage, I can't thoughtlessly touch a woman's body." - Kamui

And so history repeats itself yet again.

[Smartdumbkid]

It'd be a good post if the LGBT angle was the biggest problem with the support conversation. In my opinion, the fact that Kamui drugged Soleil without her consent is far more alarming.

It is all relative really. I think having smex with children is faaaaaar worse, but shippers are ok with it so everybody treat it like W/E. Kamui was simply being an mal socially adjusted idiot that is really naive and ignorant, hoping to do the right things in a suboptimal way. Had there been malicious intent, I would say this outrage is warranted. As of now, I say people are offended by the idea the most, without giving it due consideration *prepares flame shield*.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Smartdumbkid

[Sunwoo]

Oh I'm sorry, people can whine that weeb craps is killing the franchise and all but I can't complain that people is literally doing their best to cause Fates to crush and burn? For my most anticipated game ever after Awakening? And to my most beloved video game franchise? People are calling this "date rape", that some really F##K UP shit to say.

I don't like that people are whining that "weeb crap is killing the franchise" either. But since when is being toxic to counter other people being toxic a solution? As far as I'm concerned, if you're being just as bad as the side you're arguing against, you're just as bad as the side you're fighting against and no sympathy for either side. There are better ways to get your point across than being condescending and possibly alienating people who DO agree with you. We are all people. We should respect each other, and becoming assholes to counter other people being assholes speaks more about us, not them.

[Medeus]

I don't think any of us are trying to use this support as an example of how Fates is terrible and IS should be burned for it. Hell, most of the complainers here love the game or at least think positively of it, but that doesn't mean that when a flaw pops up, they're not going to complain about it. At the end of the day, the support does have the main character, who we're supposed to be projecting on, drug someone without their consent and putting them into a state where they're not in the right mind. That is still questionable behavior and would of course raise red flags for those reading it. We're not trying to "burn Fates to the ground," we're criticizing an element of it that we don't like, and that can happen even with games we like.

[falcoknights]

this was actually elaborated on more on tumblr-- she literally faints on the battlefield and stuff whenever she sees a pretty girl, so she goes to m!kamui for help so she doesn't flop onto the ground like a dead fish. in the middle of a battlefield.

i take it we all understand why fainting in the middle of a battlefield is Not a Good Thing.

it's less "make me straight" and more "make me not faint around girls and be smooth as hell around them too," really. also, she's not a lesbian? it's stated in a support (foleo? i have no clue who that is, i'm avoiding character images and such, so i just know his name and he's a child character) that she's bisexual.

i'm not saying that these supports aren't bad in their own ways, but he's not drugging her to make her straight, nor is there any conversion therapy going on here. (in no way am i saying that it's okay for him to do it without her knowing, though.)

also, those supports with eponine... i'm cringing. so bad. from what i've seen, soleil has some serious girl/girl relationship fetishization going on, as well as... unhealthy levels of idealism and such over girls. it's like a horrifically bad fandom interpretation of inigo going on there. except it's canon.

quite honestly, i'm hoping for a serious nerf of soleil overall, especially when it comes to her personality. like, henry x20 or something. fates is going to have its problems, but i'd like soleil to not be one of them.

Edited July 2, 2015 by falcoknights

[Baldrick]

I don't think any of us are trying to use this support as an example of how Fates is terrible and IS should be burned for it. Hell, most of the complainers here love the game or at least think positively of it, but that doesn't mean that when a flaw pops up, they're not going to complain about it. At the end of the day, the support does have the main character, who we're supposed to be projecting on, drug someone without their consent and putting them into a state where they're not in the right mind. That is still questionable behavior and would of course raise red flags for those reading it. We're not trying to "burn Fates to the ground," we're criticizing an element of it that we don't like, and that can happen even with games we like.

Thankyou.

Kamui was simply being an mal socially adjusted idiot that is really naive and ignorant, hoping to do the right things in a suboptimal way.

If the game had treated it like that, having Soleil freak out and Kamui learn a lesson that his behaviour was irresponsible, that wouldn't be nearly as bad.

From the way it was handled, the lack of consequences and the fact she not only didn't mind, but married him, suggested it was the right thing to do. That's the real problem. Like others, I hope it is changed in the localisation.

[rmodz]

People aren't trying their best to "make the series crash and burn" we're just critiquing things are are awful and and DESERVE to be critiqued. Being secretly drugged is a big and real problem for women and men alike and is the reason why I keep my cup so close to me when I go to parties, this was a bad support and really needs to get changed in the localization. That's not even addressing the LGBT aspect of the supports and it's very questionable that Soleil is stated to dislike men but then suddenly falls in love with M!Kamui. You're able to love things and address the problems with them because that's how franchises and series improve!

[Awakener_]

I'm calm until someone brought the up words "date rape" and I will be less frustrated if tumblr/else where are actually complaining about the drugging instead of Nintendo and Fire Emblem being anti-gay caused by all of kind misconceptions here.

[Smartdumbkid]

Thankyou.

If the game had treated it like that, having Soleil freak out and Kamui learn a lesson that his behaviour was irresponsible, that wouldn't be nearly as bad.

From the way it was handled, the lack of consequences and the fact she not only didn't mind, but married him, suggested it was the right thing to do. That's the real problem. Like others, I hope it is changed in the localisation.

It is going to be, because this flys in japan, not america. It still isn't nearly as bad, because this wasn't meant for western audiences. Oh well, it a moot point, and I do agree with you. Just wish this "outrage" was more thought out and wasn't a knee jerk reaction like it is.

[Kirokan]

I don't think any of us are trying to use this support as an example of how Fates is terrible and IS should be burned for it. Hell, most of the complainers here love the game or at least think positively of it, but that doesn't mean that when a flaw pops up, they're not going to complain about it. At the end of the day, the support does have the main character, who we're supposed to be projecting on, drug someone without their consent and putting them into a state where they're not in the right mind. That is still questionable behavior and would of course raise red flags for those reading it. We're not trying to "burn Fates to the ground," we're criticizing an element of it that we don't like, and that can happen even with games we like.

Thank you very much for talking sense. Always refreshing to see posts like this.

[Frelia]

I don't think any of us are trying to use this support as an example of how Fates is terrible and IS should be burned for it. Hell, most of the complainers here love the game or at least think positively of it, but that doesn't mean that when a flaw pops up, they're not going to complain about it. At the end of the day, the support does have the main character, who we're supposed to be projecting on, drug someone without their consent and putting them into a state where they're not in the right mind. That is still questionable behavior and would of course raise red flags for those reading it. We're not trying to "burn Fates to the ground," we're criticizing an element of it that we don't like, and that can happen even with games we like.

Thank you.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Eevonee

[eclipse]

It's the closest thing to date rape without actually being date rape. Putting hot sauce in your friend's milk doesn't radically change their perception of the world (i.e drug them).

Let's take this one step further. Put something with gluten in my food. I'll be very sick for a day, at least, and mentally out of it for a week.

Don't screw with things other people ingest. I count myself lucky that my reactions aren't fatal in five minutes.

Yep. She has trouble talking to boys, she takes a potion to help with it and it wears off. Then it goes into usual romance swerve that every other Fire Emblem since 6 goes. Are most of you 14 or something?

No, but I'll get VERY FUCKING SICK if you mess with my food. Which is why I don't like that aspect of this support.

I feel like there are so many things wrong with this support I don't even know where to start :/

From what I remember:

- Don't slip stuff in other people's food

- Why are you socializing with the guy who clearly has no respect for your boundaries?

- It covers up the issue, instead of getting to the root of it

- Some people take issue with "treasure yourself more"; I saw it as "you should have a better opinion of yourself"

Her support with Foleo seems relatively benign, at least.

​http://pastebin.com/mPyG72CG

Some of Soleil's behaviour is questionable, but it's in-character nonetheless. And it (like many other children supports) doesn't have an absolutely terrible S-rank, due to the lack of a spontaneous shoehorned marriage.

what a convenient ninja

. . .oh man, I really like Foleo in this one!

I think it's okay to ask the localization to change this, since it will be received badly in the West. But people need to think a little more about where these things are coming from, and have more cultural awareness. Not everything is made with a WESTERN mindset, especially with something coming from Japan.

Japan has it's own set of tropes and beliefs, and IS didn't write this support out of malice towards lesbians. The "girl acts lesbian but ends up falling for a man" trope is common in Japan. I think IS was just making this her character archetype.

Yes, yes I know people are going to be mad anyways, and find reasons to be mad. But people need to cut IS some slack. They didn't write anything explicitly insulting, just unaware of implications. And probably because these type of "implications" are not even taught or thought about in Japan the way they are on Tumblr or wherever.

First part: That's the sense I got from her. I think that's her way of trying to relate to her father.

Second part: For the sake of those who have had people slip things into their food "just to see if you really are allergic to that", don't put that in a support.

this is the internet dude , don't expect rationality especially from these tumblrdrones

Are you perchance talking about certain members of SF?

Edit: Good job guys, now this shit is spreading in tumblr and is accusing Fire Emblem of anti-gay. Nice fantastic job people. Clap~ clap~.

Actually, there IS a point to all of this. . .which I'll address in a bit. Unfortunately, said point went above your head.

Let's calm down with the personal attacks, no need to get hostile. I'm just calling it as I see it and rolling my eyes at people with no sense of logic. Am I maybe blowing it out of proportion? Probably. Am I fighting fire with fire? Most likely. People won't pay any attention unless something bigger is in their sights.

Condescending? Eh, I've been called worse. And you think I started with Awakening, HAH!

It's not your job to tell people this, and don't do it again. If it's bad, report the post and explain why.

You have BBM-level reading skills.

Only those hallowed few who frequent the mafia subforum will understand this.

(in other words, don't start the apocalypse, kthx)

Oh I'm sorry, people can whine that weeb craps is killing the franchise and all but I can't complain that people is literally doing their best to cause Fates to crush and burn? For my most anticipated game ever after Awakening? And to my most beloved video game franchise? People are calling this "date rape", that some really F##K UP shit to say.

Edit: I been enough angry for today, I'm just gonna sleep before I go even more crazy.

You were just warned about your attitude. Cut it out.

---

My issue is the fact that messing with someone's food is seen as acceptable (because if I found out someone did that to me, I'd never let them near me again). It shouldn't be, because even if it's something that is considered harmless by the vast majority of people, there's always the chance someone's going to react badly. In extreme cases, it's fatal.

If Soliel/Foleo's conversation is any indication, I think it's ironic that the girl who seems to admit to being bisexual (would translate this myself, but don't have time) isn't allowed to express herself. IMO that's probably the most realistic thing I've seen in this game, even if it's horribly sad.

[Baldrick]

I'm calm until someone brought the up words "date rape" and I will be less frustrated if tumblr/else where are actually complaining about the drugging instead of Nintendo and Fire Emblem being anti-gay caused by all of kind misconceptions here.

People are complaining about the drugging because it is reminiscent of a date rape situation. What other situations are there in which a man slips a drug into a woman's drink without her knowledge?

It is going to be, because this flys in japan, not america. It still isn't nearly as bad, because this wasn't meant for western audiences. Oh well, it a moot point, and I do agree with you. Just wish this "outrage" was more thought out and wasn't a knee jerk reaction like it is.

I feel the reaction here has been mostly reasonable, I guess other parts of the internet have been more incensed about it.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

speaking of messing with food, my mother is deathly allergic to peanut butte rand chocolate.

i'm certain she'd never let anyone near her if she or anyone else caught them trying to slip that in because it might as well be trying to assassinate her.

so yeah, i do have a problem with people being sneaky slimebags and messing with food or water.

i'm not sure why this aspect of it isn't considered to be awful.

i mean, what if the girl died from an allergic reaction in that support?

Edited July 2, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Mighty Kamina]

speaking of messing with food, my mother is deathly allergic to peanut butte rand chocolate.

i'm certain she'd never let anyone near her if she or anyone else caught them trying to slip that in because it might as well be trying to assassinate her.

so yeah, i do have a problem with people being sneaky slimebags and messing with food or water.

i'm not sure why this aspect of it isn't considered to be awful.

i mean, what if the girl died from an allergic reaction in that support?

That's where my issue with this support comes from. Kamui didn't ask for her permission, and just slipped the drug into her food like an utter creep.

[Awakener_]

People are complaining about the drugging because it is reminiscent of a date rape situation. What other situations are there in which a man slips a drug into a woman's drink without her knowledge?

If my little sister doesn't want to take her medicine because it is bitter and my father sneak it through a cup of juice/water, is that date rape? Just please guys think before saying something like this. I don't want act like an asshole but when media is using this very thread as source to write a article on "Nintendo curing lesbianism", I literary want to cry.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Awakener_

[Tamarsamar]

tl;dr, Mod wins, Foleo/Soleil awarded OTP. /thread

[Ganhur]

So is it "offensive" based on reality or a fictional law that drugging is bad? If we are judging the morality of Kamui based on our knowledge of reality, I'm pretty sure that isn't as "offensive" as slashing a human being with a sword or throwing fireball at people you hate.

[Mighty Kamina]

If my little sister doesn't want to take her medicine because it is bitter and my father sneak it through a cup of juice/water, is that date rape? Just please guys think before saying something like this. I don't want act like an asshole but when media is using this very thread as source to write a article on "Nintendo curing lesbianism", I'm literary want to cry.

Soleil is at an age that she can make choices for herself. She isn't presented as a child refusing to take her medicine, Kamui is using questionable methods to "help" her, without informing her until she's already ingested the drug. This would be a different situation then a parent giving a child who refuses to take their medicine, their medicine through food.

[Ghostlander]

At least here's one support localization will definitely change.

[Awakener_]

Soleil is at an age that she can make choices for herself. She isn't presented as a child refusing to take her medicine, Kamui is using questionable methods to "help" her, without informing her until she's already ingested the drug. This would be a different situation then a parent giving a child who refuses to take their medicine, their medicine through food.

What I used as example doesn't matter, what I'm saying is don't say things that can caused misunderstanding and typically Soleil is still a child. There a idiot at Destructoid planning on writing article on "Nintendo curing gay and lesbian", I don't want another idiot writing a article with headline "date rape in Fire Emblem".

Edit: I don't condone drugging but just be careful with wording.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Awakener_

[Crysta]

lets put this general idea to use in a different, more relateable scenario for those who aren't getting the issue here:

"So bro... I've heard you're deathly afraid of spiders, SO I SPIKED YOUR DRINK WHICH TURNS EVERYONE INTO GIANT SPIDERS, ain't that nice? Now you can conquer your fear because you have no choice!"

yeah, no

Edited July 2, 2015 by Crysta