Unit Optimization Thread

[GoXDS]

Well she only used pure magical mothers, so I don't think it's a great list. As I pointed out earlier, Camilla could make a good mom for her as well.

it's not the most comprehensive list but she was going for "best" Ophelia. thus Mag is much preferred for her, for the +1 Mag to start with (vs +0 Str), Personal, Personal Tome, starting Class. Camilla!Ophelia @ Rev Knight could work but it's meh. 2 Str/1 Mag/1 Spd is pretty lackluster along with Rev Knight's lower caps overall as well. Dark Knight generally outclasses Rev Knight, especially with Tome Rank and bulk and total growths

Edited September 16, 2015 by GoXDS

[Duke of Dozel]

I provides her with enough STR to be a good physical unit as well, and like you said, with the Dark Knights balanced growths, that'll be a great class for her. And she still gets to keep deadly breath and overbearing.

[gayserbeam]

A physical build taking advantage of Blossoming Mind can easily be far more potent, such as

Charlotte!Ophelia

Class: Berserker

Caps:

MHP 70

STR 44

MAG 27

SKL 34

SPD 35

LCK 27

DEF 26

RES 23

Skills:

Ogre Strike (A+ Charlotte and Rinkah)

Roundhouse / Ravenstrike (S Kisaragi)

Awakening

Vantage

Galeforce / Lifetaker

Items:

Belka's Killer Axe / Killer Axe

Berserker Axe

(Tome) × 3

Summary: With this set, Ophelia has 90 (100 with Roundhouse) crit with the Killer Axe, and 65 (75 with Roundhouse) with the Berserker Axe. After half-HP, she has 120-130 crit with the Killer Axe and 105-115 with the Berserker Axe. That's almost a guaranteed critical on most units.

With Lifetaker and Vengeance, Ophelia has some survivability, although the Berserker Axe allows you to stop yourself from healing if you need Awakening to land a certian hit. You can also pass on Lifetaker and use the Berserker Axe to force Ophelia into Awakening, in which case you'll want Galeforce to increase Ophelia's chance of doing something before dying.

Really Ophelia's Crit potential makes her predisposition towards magic rather meaningless. Even a magical crit build is better with Charlotte as the mother if you aren't buying skills so that Ophelia can get both Roundhouse and Ogre Strike. You could basically take these exact same skills and stick them on Sorcerer Ophelia with Excalibur, Mjolnir, Moonlight and Missiletainn. You still have 85 Crit with Excalibur and 115 after Awakening, so the 3 Mag disparity between Nyx!Ophelia and Charlotte!Ophelia is fairly insignificant.

[astrophys]

Charlotte does also have no magic growth herself, so she'll greatly cut Ophelia's personal magic growth…. basically in half.

That said, Ophelia is fortunate to be in a class with a high class growth, and she had a good (although not extreme) amount of magic growth to begin with in her personal, so she'd still have meaningful magic growths as a Sorcerer….. it would just be less.

Obviously, growths don't matter at all once they cap out, at which point this disadvantage becomes irrelevant; but it does matter for when you're still trying to get there.

Based on yesterday's calculations on growth rate inheritance that I discussed, I expect that by 20/20 the 29 levels from 10/0 to 20/0 should cost Charlotte!Ophelia 6.525 magic relative to default!Ophelia. Whereas an Elise!Ophelia would be 2.9 magic higher than default!Ophelia at 20/20 and 9.425 magic higher than Charlotte!Ophelia at 20/20.

Charlotte!Ophelia should end up with a better STR growth than a magic growth (35% STR personally according to my estimates; 60% STR as a Berserker); her Sorc growth should be ending up around 47.5% magic.

[gayserbeam]

Charlotte does also have no magic growth herself, so she'll greatly cut Ophelia's personal magic growth. basically in half.

That said, Ophelia is fortunate to be in a class with a high class growth, and she had a good (although not extreme) amount of magic growth to begin with in her personal, so she'd still have meaningful magic growths as a Sorcerer.. it would just be less.

Obviously, growths don't matter at all once they cap out, at which point this disadvantage becomes irrelevant; but it does matter for when you're still trying to get there.

Based on yesterday's calculations on growth rate inheritance that I discussed, I expect that by 20/20 the 29 levels from 10/0 to 20/0 should cost Charlotte!Ophelia 6.525 magic relative to default!Ophelia. Whereas an Elise!Ophelia would be 2.9 magic higher than default!Ophelia at 20/20 and 9.425 magic higher than Charlotte!Ophelia at 20/20.

Charlotte!Ophelia should end up with a better STR growth than a magic growth (35% STR personally according to my estimates; 60% STR as a Berserker); her Sorc growth should be ending up around 47.5% magic.

I was talking specifically about PVP, but yeah, in-game you'd be better off taking advantage of the crazy magic growth with a mother like Elise or Nyx. I was able to achieve the Sorcerer build above too by marrying Elise!Ophelia to Oni Kanna, as well. Edited September 16, 2015 by gayserbeam

[Duke of Dozel]

Still waiting for someone to confirm the growth speculation because I really want to know in order to find the preferred pairs.

[astrophys]

Well, I have my calculations on the prior page , but strictly speaking they aren't "proof" due to being too small sample sizes and the possibility that RNG could have coincidentally skewed the results (despite multiple trials) such that it appears to work one way by chance when it actually works.

My calculations:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=55355&p=4010534 (the original comments I made yesterday)

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=55355&p=4010731 (newer calculations for several more, also from yesterday).

But really, the only way we can know for certain is for someone to look at the game code and find where the calculations are being made.

We could also compile larger data sets, but strictly speaking we'd only get a very strong set of evidence hinting at, but not 100% conclusively proving it.

Some other tests (although they would also be subject to RNG) would be stuff like Elise!Lutz's luck growths (it should be 72.5% if it just averages the two of their, 50% if works like Awakening, so that produces a large difference in growth rate predictions; although both are still so high that a child seal would cap him off, so instead the question would be at what level does he cap out his luck stat on average? Then that would let us infer his growth rate and whether it was closer to 72.5% personal or 50% personal.). This isn't the only example: any example where at least one of them characters involved is widely different in stats from the other would be a good test. Maybe many such tests can increase our confidence (or cast into doubt).

There is also anecdotal evidence, but this is not actual proof either. Example, from GameFAQs user Mavitar:

Well in my current playthrough, I'm noticing my Elise!Ophelia has more Elise-y stats than Odin-y. She's excelling in Magic, Speed, and Luck but falling behind in HP, Skill, and Defense.

There have been other such anecdotes I've heard, like Hinoka!Matoi turning out very similarly to Hinoka (and not Tsubaki) and Azura!Kisaragi turning out much more similarly to Azura than Takumi.

Oh, here it is: Arya wrote this on June 27, 2015, in the thread "Character discussion gameplay-wise (minor spoilers)"

- Subaki: He's ok. He's really slow for a pegasus knight (which does not matter as much considering the bonus speed on attack), so his personal skill is not as good as it sounds. Hinoka was far superior to him overall.

- Hinoka: Amazing. She has amazing resist and speed as expected, but her strength and defense is actually very high for a pegasus knight. I'm biased toward Pegasus Knights overall, but I feel she's the best one in the serie.

- Matoi (Subaki-Hinoka): Basically identical to Hinoka. There's maybe a total of 3 points stat difference between the two. Glad she took from her mother and not her father.

The observation of Matoi being basically identical to Hinoka makes a lot of sense if my speculation is correct: Consider what that would make their personal growths become:

Hinoka:

45% HP, 45% Str, 15% Mag, 40% Skl, 45% Spd, 40% Lck, 35% Def, 40% Res
Total Personal Growths: 305%

Hinoka!Matoi (predicted):
50% HP, 40% Str, 15% Mag, 40% Skl, 42.5% Spd, 42.5% Lck, 35% Def, 30% Res
Total Personal Growths: 295% = (285% default + 305% Hinoka)/2

contrast with Tsubaki:
55% HP, 30% Str, 20% Mag, 50% Skl, 20% Spd, 25% Lck, 45% Def, 5% Res
Total Personal Growths: 250%

​But, the actual growths we'd see would be their personal + class growths… lets look at them as Falcon Warriors, for example

Falcon Warrior Hinoka (actual)

45% HP, 55% Str, 25% Mag, 50% Skl, 60% Spd, 60% Lck, 35% Def, 60% Res

Falcon Warrior Hinoka!Matoi (predicted)

50% HP, 50% Str, 25% Mag, 50% Skl, 57.5% Spd, 62.5% Lck, 35% Def, 50% Res

---> Compare to Hinoka:

-----> +5% HP growth difference

-----> - 5% Str growth difference

-----> identical magic growth

------> identical skl growth

------> -2.5% Spd growth difference

------> +2.5% Lck growth difference

------> identical defense growth

------> -10% Res growth difference

--> In other words, according to the prediction, three of the growth (MAG, SKL, DEF) are identical, two of them differ by only 2.5% (Spd and Lck), and two of them (HP and STR) only differ by 5%. The only "large" difference between their stats is that Hinoka has 10% higher RES growth than Matoi's predicted growth; Hinoka ends up with 390% in personal + class growths; Matoi would have 380% in personal + class growths.

Falcon Warrior Tsubaki (actual)

55% HP, 40% Str, 30% Mag, 60% Skl, 35% Spd, 45% Lck, 45% Def, 25% Res

Personal + Class Growths: 335

Consider what Matoi's growths would be if it worked like Awakening:

Falcon Knight Matoi (Awakening Growth assumption):

51.66% HP, 46.66% Str, 26.66% Mag, 53.33% Skl, 50% Spd, 56.66% Lck, 38.33% Def, 41.66% Res

vs. Falcon Warrior Hinoka (actual)

45% HP, 55% Str, 25% Mag, 50% Skl, 60% Spd, 60% Lck, 35% Def, 60% Res

​The differences would be more pronounced if this was the case: STR would be noticeably lower, Spd would be noticeably lower, Res would be even lower than before (-18.33% Hinoka's growths if Awakening style vs. -10% under my speculation).

So while RNG still could have made Arya still see a near identical Matoi even if it worked like Awakening, its not a favored outcome as far as likelihoods.

Edited September 16, 2015 by astrophys

[GoXDS]

has anyone made headway into figuring out how stat inheritance works? that could also be a consideration for story mode/non-cap

[astrophys]

Nope…. I've been too pre-occupied with pairing theory crafting, growth rates, and school work.

As of the last time, we were finding that stat boosters were having a really weird (seemingly inconsistent) effect; in actuality is probably very consistent but just operating by rules we haven't thought of or realized yet, so it seems inconsistent but is actually obeying an unknown set of rules.

Its pretty clear that kids at level 10 join with stats that seem to be at least their personal bases + their class bases, but occasionally they do end up with a few more points than they should, although the determination of this is unclear. Dumping stat boosters into them can enhance a few stats, but the pattern by which this works hasn't become clear yet; some stats don't seem to budge, while others do.

[Ebony]

Oh... yeah, I meant to ask, any good pairings for Flannel in the third route? So... IK? Besides Charlotte that is...

[AwakeningFates]

Any ideas on what would be a good asset/flaw for a Kamui x Anna pairing? +mag/-str? +speed/-luck? Or a luck asset? Is Anna oriented towards being physical or magical? What class would she appreciate getting from Kamui?

[SerenadeofWisdom]

Any ideas on what would be a good asset/flaw for a Kamui x Anna pairing? +mag/-str? +speed/-luck? Or a luck asset? Is Anna oriented towards being physical or magical? What class would she appreciate getting from Kamui?

Anna is more magic based also +mag/-lck is excellent for this pair. Edited September 17, 2015 by SerenadeofWisdom

[AwakeningFates]

Anna is more magic based also +mag/-lck is excellent for this pair.

Thanks. I guess Anna's +2 luck modifier balances out a luck flaw.

Anna can't A+ support anyone, can she?

Edited September 18, 2015 by AwakeningFates

[SerenadeofWisdom]

Thanks. I guess Anna's +2 luck modifier balances out a luck flaw.

Anna can't A+ support anyone, can she?

no unfortunately....at least she gets rod knight and herb merchant secondary classes. Edited September 18, 2015 by SerenadeofWisdom

[astrophys]

Who would people think would be the best Dark Falcon from an in-game perspective (no-grind, using one of the two Dark Falcon Wings you get from having all three routes)? I'm fine with the idea of putting the stat boosters found/given during the normal course of the game into someone if it seems a prudent investment.

I'd imagine that it would be someone with either an inherent lance rank or an inherent tome rank. Lance users can user the base magic of the class to help power Shinrai Naginata (or as they were in Awakening, Shocksticks). Tome users obviously can use tomes.

I'd imagine that then personal skills would come into play; damage boosters would combo with Galeforce, and you'd want ones that don't rely on being with an ally.

Any thoughts?

[Ebony]

Who would people think would be the best Dark Falcon from an in-game perspective (no-grind, using one of the two Dark Falcon Wings you get from having all three routes)? I'm fine with the idea of putting the stat boosters found/given during the normal course of the game into someone if it seems a prudent investment.

I'd imagine that it would be someone with either an inherent lance rank or an inherent tome rank. Lance users can user the base magic of the class to help power Shinrai Naginata (or as they were in Awakening, Shocksticks). Tome users obviously can use tomes.

I'd imagine that then personal skills would come into play; damage boosters would combo with Galeforce, and you'd want ones that don't rely on being with an ally.

Any thoughts?

Actually I think maybe Elise or a mage in general. Possibly Ophelia due to high crit?

[Duke of Dozel]

Oh... yeah, I meant to ask, any good pairings for Flannel in the third route? So... IK? Besides Charlotte that is...

Rinka will kill Velour's STR by 1 but will patch her defense, as well as giving her the Oni Savage class and it's great skills. It's all on preference if you ask me.

[CrazyFiasco]

Does Mozume have access to GKW?

[December Knight]

Does Mozume have access to GKW?

Yes.

[CrazyFiasco]

That's good to hear I'm planning on making her one on my Nohr playthrough. Should Arthur go bersker or hero?

[GoXDS]

That's good to hear I'm planning on making her one on my Nohr playthrough. Should Arthur go bersker or hero?

probably Berserker. his Luc is bad enough that the Class penalty won't even hurt him. even going Brave Hero route, his average Luc at 20/20 comes out to be 5.2 while Berserker is 1.25. this means he'd have 2.6 Dodge as 20/20 Hero but his personal Skill means -5, so 0. thus, going Berserker he'd gain 20 Crit and suffer absolutely no penalty (bar Support bonuses but they'd be abysmal still).

there's also a ton of Sword users so you don't necessarily need more (and he'd have to start with E Rank swords anyways). Berserker's Pair Up bonuses are also great (5 Str and 3 Spd) while Brave Hero's are only ok (3 Skl, 3 Spd, 2 Def)

[December Knight]

That's good to hear I'm planning on making her one on my Nohr playthrough. Should Arthur go bersker or hero?

Here are Arthur's ending stats as both a Brave Hero and a Berserker, so you can choose which one you like more.

Arthur as a Brave Hero (ending stats) - HP : 60, STR : 33, MAG : 25, SKL : 38, SPD : 32, LCK : 28, DEF : 31, RES : 26

Arthur as a Berserker (ending stats) - HP : 70, STR : 41, MAG : 25, SKL : 35, SPD : 33, LCK : 22, DEF : 28, RES : 24

I think Berserker is a better class for him both stat and gameplay wise.

[Dark Paladin X]

probably Berserker. his Luc is bad enough that the Class penalty won't even hurt him. even going Brave Hero route, his average Luc at 20/20 comes out to be 5.2 while Berserker is 1.25. this means he'd have 2.6 Dodge as 20/20 Hero but his personal Skill means -5, so 0. thus, going Berserker he'd gain 20 Crit and suffer absolutely no penalty (bar Support bonuses but they'd be abysmal still).

there's also a ton of Sword users so you don't necessarily need more (and he'd have to start with E Rank swords anyways). Berserker's Pair Up bonuses are also great (5 Str and 3 Spd) while Brave Hero's are only ok (3 Skl, 3 Spd, 2 Def)

Also, keep in note that his growth rates is kinda meh in Fire Emblem standards as either a Berserker or a Hero. If you want Heroes in the Nohr route, Lazward and Luna will be your choices. If you want a main Axe user Berserker, Charlotte will be your better option since she has better strength, luck, and speed stats for a Berserker than Arthur (the only advantages Arthur has as a Berserker is having higher skill and being a bit more tanky, so he's better off as a Hero instead.

That being said, if you do wish to use Arthur, you probably may only use him so that you can marry someone with REALLY high luck since his son, Lutz, is a much better unit than him. Unfortunately, your marriage options for Arthur is very limited when it comes to maximizing Lutz's potential since most of the units available in the Nohr route have really low Luck growth rates barring characters like Elise, Effie, Belka, Felicia, Mozume, and Charlotte. If you really want to maximize Lutz's potential it's usually marrying Elise and even so, Elise is better off marrying someone else like Kaze since Kaze's daugther, Midoriko, have better use of the Luck growth rate than Lutz,

[astrophys]

Well, as for growths of the character mentioned in the spoiler tags, it matters when the Awakening formula or the [default +variable]/2 hypothesis applies (or if its something different from both). I've outlined reasons why I suspect it to be the[default +variable]/2 system earlier in this thread.

[GoXDS]

Also, keep in note that his growth rates is kinda meh in Fire Emblem standards as either a Berserker or a Hero. If you want Heroes in the Nohr route, Lazward and Luna will be your choices. If you want a main Axe user Berserker, Charlotte will be your better option since she has better strength, luck, and speed stats for a Berserker than Arthur (the only advantages Arthur has as a Berserker is having higher skill and being a bit more tanky, so he's better off as a Hero instead.

That being said, if you do wish to use Arthur, you probably may only use him so that you can marry someone with REALLY high luck since his son, Lutz, is a much better unit than him. Unfortunately, your marriage options for Arthur is very limited when it comes to maximizing Lutz's potential since most of the units available in the Nohr route have really low Luck growth rates barring characters like Elise, Effie, Belka, Felicia, Mozume, and Charlotte. If you really want to maximize Lutz's potential it's usually marrying Elise and even so, Elise is better off marrying someone else like Kaze since Kaze's daugther, Midoriko, have better use of the Luck growth rate than Lutz,

eh, 60/70 Str (Brave Hero/Berserker respectively)and 50 Spd growth is plenty. even if there are better, that's definitely not bad (they're great, even).

and average stats by 20/20

Brave Hero: 47.4/32.85/0/35.35/26/5.2/28.95/11.4

Berserker: 53.3/38.75/0/33.4/27/1.25/25.05/9.4

it's trading in ~4 Def and 2 Res for ~6 HP, ~6 Str, and 1 Spd. personally prefer Berserker here

Edited September 19, 2015 by GoXDS