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Why is the story of Awakening not so good according to you?

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Grima never needed Robin to free his sealed body. So he sat around for over two years waiting for a man and gems that weren't needed.

Edited by Alazen

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Well, as both me and Czar have stated, they tried so hard to be epic in chap. 23 that they severly hurt the narrative there.

There's also the interesting fact that Grima STILL wants to join with Robin AFTER unsealing his body. That suggests to me that Grima isn't able to reach full strength without that timeline's "Heart of Grima".

I mentioned in my first post in this thread that my only problem was Chap. 23. Now that I'm closely analyzing the plot, I'm almost certain chap. 23 had different writers than the rest of the game

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^While I'm not going to change your opinion, I honestly feel that if they had the world map narration between chapters and handled chapter 23 way better then they did, it would be a very well written game. Chap.23 ruins it, but it doesn't go downhill early on.

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I suppose all of that would make the major antagonists actually effective? Make Robin far less of a Mary Sue? Make the Grimleal less ridiculous? Make Valm not a shoehorned Gaiden reference? Make the 2nd Gen far more important?

Edited by Alazen

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I suppose all of that would make the major antagonists actually effective? Make Robin far less of a Mary Sue? Make the Grimleal less ridiculous? Make Valm not a shoehorned Gaiden reference? Make the 2nd Gen far more important?

Valm didn't even reference Gaiden at all, none of the culture is the same, for example worshipping Naga instead of the combined religion of Duma and Mila.

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For one thing, Gangrel, Walmart, and Grima especially were effective. Gangrel straight out counquers Ylisse in the beginning of the game, Walmart conquers a large majority of Valentia, and Grima literally destroys the world in the future. Validar is effective, tho not nearly as much, since he successfully mind controls Robin to get the Emblem, which would be effective if not for the asspull that is Chap. 23.

For the Robin is a mary sue bit, if you have a problem with that, then you must hate every other FE game's plot, since all the lords bar Sigurd are basically mary sues..

Yes, more world map narration would make the grimleal less ridiculous, since the Loptyr sect in FE4 is basically the same thing in a game that clarifies things in the world map segments, and they aren't ridiculous.

Valm is filler, that I admit, but once again, its a problem shared with other FE's, FE7 and FE10 in particular, have more filler in them than the Valm arc provides, yet FE7 is widely considered a very well written FE game.

So yes, those additions would fix these plot problems completely

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Because obviously, Lucina saying that she is Chrom's child from an apocalyptic futur would be a veeeeery smart thing to do... :dry:

The only thing you show is more and more inconsistencies 'only sought to change events that directly led to Grima's return', I dunno, they (read: Lucina) seems pretty determined to do things that has nothing to do with Grima.

I suppose all of that would make the major antagonists actually effective? Make Robin far less of a Mary Sue? Make the Grimleal less ridiculous? Make Valm not a shoehorned Gaiden reference? Make the 2nd Gen far more important?

I mainly blame Robin's mary sueness on the crappy writing, it still make him a tad suish though, but not that much all thing considered.

Edited by B.Leu

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Gangrel straight out counquers Ylisse in the beginning of the game

He lost the majority of his army after Emmeryn gave a speech and fell off a cliff. His greatest triumph (which Emmeryn enabled by walking straight into a trap) backfired on him.

Walmart conquers a large majority of Valentia

Backstory. The Walhart encountered in-game goes around getting beaten and/or outmanevured. Even his victory over Basilio was undermined by "I R NOT DEAD!!!".

and Grima literally destroys the world in the future.

Backstory. Grima sat around for over two years until Validar got whooped again and he finally bothered to free his sealed body. After which he was beaten soon after.

Validar is effective, tho not nearly as much, since he successfully mind controls Robin to get the Emblem, which would be effective if not for the asspull that is Chap. 23.

He gets killed early-on and Grima has to bail him out. Contrast this with Manfroy, who didn't need Loptyr's help to win.

For the Robin is a mary sue bit, if you have a problem with that, then you must hate every other FE game's plot, since all the lords bar Sigurd are basically mary sues..

When the game goes out of its way to have the player character get praised or otherwise backed to the point of praising him for having who knows how many men burned, lets her marry every playable non-Legacy unit of the opposite sex who isn't Morgan, and has him come back to life (with assorted playble units talking like Robin was so close to them even with no supports) using bond power then we have an issue here.

Also, you'll need to try harder to find a non-Avatar lead down there with Robin. In particular, Micaiah and Leif are nowhere close to Robin.

Yes, more world map narration would make the grimleal less ridiculous, since the Loptyr sect in FE4 is basically the same thing in a game that clarifies things in the world map segments, and they aren't ridiculous.

It wasn't the map segments that stopped the Loptyrians from being ridiculous. There was, among other examples, how the Loptyrians are shown to be having a ball in the empire with Loptyr himself coming through for them. Meanwhile the Grimleal have getting eaten by a dragon to look forward to. Edited by Alazen

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I wasn't saying the antagonists didn't screw up big time, but seriously, if they didn't, there would be no way to beat said antagonists.

Also, it doesn't matter if its backstory or not, it's still an accomplishment of the antagonist. Are we just going to consider Medeus an ineffective villain in FE Shadow Dragon because in the main plot he's stuck in a castle the whole game and has to have Garnef set everything up for him, despite the fact he effectively conquered the continent in the game's backstory. Removing backstory makes a lot of antagonists in general seem ineffective

There's a reason I didn't include Validar in with the other antagonists, and you're right that without help he wouldn't be that effective without Grima, but look at Ephidel from FE7, he was brought to life by the main antagonist in the 1st place, and he managed to screw up worse. I point out FE7 in particular here, cause its usually seen as having a strong plot, and it had an ineffective main antagonist. At least Validar accomplished more than Ephidel. I also find it hilarious that Micaiah was an example of a non Mary sue FE lord you used here, part 1 is ridiculous about praising Miccy, and Daien mooks in part 3 are shown to worship her like a goddess. While Miccy doesn't anywhere near as many shipping options as Robin, I still say she counts by far. Leif may not be a sue, I don't know since I don't care for the Jugdral games personally, but that's still only 2 examples out of 13 games(counting Sigurd, not Miccy, she is so a sue). While the Loptyrians are seen enjoying themselves in the second half of FE4, we honestly don't know what happens to the Grimleal after the Dragon's table feeding. Heck, real world religions tell people to blow themselves to a million pieces in order to reach paradise.(Well, certain corruptions of real world religions anyway). That is a screw up on the writers part that World map Narration could of fixed by simply stating that they believed they would reach a paradise if they sacrificed themselves.

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I'm not sure if this applies, but I've always felt that the existence of the Risen was never fully explained. They're corpses of ash, sure. Some of the villains seem to have the ability to summon them. But why are they here?

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Obvious characterless Robin problems are evident. The self-insert who has no control over what they say except one choice just prior to Emmeryn taking a dive which held no consequence whatsoever.

There's also the fact that if in the player's timeline Robin is found after getting everything wiped by Grima trying to take up residence in their head, what happened in Lucina's timeline. Robin's memory wouldn't have been wiped, which would have led to the heir of Plegia signing on with the prince of Ylisse.

I realise that it's said that Robin's mother took them away, but that was only to stop her child becoming a vassal of a rather grumpy dragon. I don't think Lucina's timeline's Robin would have ever joined Chrom.

Time travel always causes plotholes.

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I wasn't saying the antagonists didn't screw up big time, but seriously, if they didn't, there would be no way to beat said antagonists.

What do you base that on?

Also, it doesn't matter if its backstory or not, it's still an accomplishment of the antagonist. Are we just going to consider Medeus an ineffective villain in FE Shadow Dragon because in the main plot he's stuck in a castle the whole game and has to have Garnef set everything up for him, despite the fact he effectively conquered the continent in the game's backstory. Removing backstory makes a lot of antagonists in general seem ineffective

Medeus' games at least tried to address his lack of activity by how he was weakened (War of Shadows) or dead for most of the game (War of Heroes). Both of which make him look better than Grima's excuses. And besides, there was Gharnef to carry the torch (unlike Validar).

There's a reason I didn't include Validar in with the other antagonists, and you're right that without help he wouldn't be that effective without Grima, but look at Ephidel from FE7, he was brought to life by the main antagonist in the 1st place, and he managed to screw up worse. I point out FE7 in particular here, cause its usually seen as having a strong plot, and it had an ineffective main antagonist. At least Validar accomplished more than Ephidel.

Ephidel is a starter foe who dies before the rest of the Black Fang is shown. He's not an antagonist like Gharnef or Manfroy.

I also find it hilarious that Micaiah was an example of a non Mary sue FE lord you used here, part 1 is ridiculous about praising Miccy, and Daien mooks in part 3 are shown to worship her like a goddess. While Miccy doesn't anywhere near as many shipping options as Robin, I still say she counts by far.

1. Micaiah's treatment by Daien's troops was noted in dialogue as being unsettling.

2. Ike hijacks RD's narrative later in the game. Micaiah has to resort to "dirty tricks" (which are noted as such) to keep up with Ike when they go to war in Part 3. She gets shoved aside for Yune in Part 4 to the point of having a lack of non-battle dialogue. Micaiah's goddess was even treated like she was closer to Ike for her final farewell.

Micaiah is not on Robin's level.

While the Loptyrians are seen enjoying themselves in the second half of FE4, we honestly don't know what happens to the Grimleal after the Dragon's table feeding. Heck, real world religions tell people to blow themselves to a million pieces in order to reach paradise.(Well, certain corruptions of real world religions anyway). That is a screw up on the writers part that World map Narration could of fixed by simply stating that they believed they would reach a paradise if they sacrificed themselves.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ReSxQ-v-vWcC&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Many suicide bombers are like other suicidal people. Investigations of terrorists like the 9/11 hijackers have found examples of marital strife, professional failure, etc. They are not identical to the many other worshipers of Allah. They aren't even identical to terrorists in the same organizations.

The Grimleal have no developed history with ideology. The Aztec practiconers of human sacrifice believed doing so was necessary to prevent the world's destruction. The Loptyrians by the time GotHW starts are the descendants of the servants of a god who brought new magic and order to Judgral. The Grimleal worship a dragon who is open about how he's out to destroy humanity.

Edited by Alazen

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Remember Phila? What was the point of her existing? To die and for no one to acknowledge it? lol

I think this might be the most pointless FE character in existence.

bosses are atleast slain by the player, player units, no matter how awful, can be "used", even NPC's can "take part" in a battle, hell even story only characters or villagers hold more merit by either being important to the story or giving out game play information and world building

Phila is literally the girl that gets ignored during her life, then gets ignored during her death, never taking onto the field once in game play.

also excellent argument by Alazen

Edited by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

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Alazen, I will say you're a good debater, but the things your saying still ring shallow.

I base my assumption there would be no way to beat said antagonists on simple logic. Considering that Chrom himself is about as effective a leader as the antagonists(see how he handled Plegia after the first war), not even Robin's sueness would pull their butts out of the fire should something go wrong due to Chrom insisting on stupid actions such as accepting a diplomatic meeting he himself admitted was a trap.

I've also already stated what Grima was doing in those two years, trying to merge with Robin, once again I'm placing blame for why he doesn't need him at the Dragon's Table on the fact that all of chap.23 is a giant asspull

If Gangrel counts as a major antagonist, so does Ephidel, since they spend similer amounts of time onscreen, and have a large impact on the plot

Mary Sue characters I've seen typically don't like how they are treated, and usually humble. While there are exceptions to this rule, it doesn't change the fact that the whole Daein army has an unhealthy worship of Miccy.

Also, while Ike does take her role as main protagonist, it means nothing, since he's just a bigger stu anyway. It doesn't change the fact that she's a huge sue even after Ike appears. Yune is one of many problems I have with RDs plot, but considering she IS a Goddess, and said Goddess decided Micaiah was the only person suitable to carry her.

One more thing about Miccy, she commits said evil acts as you put it, and is never actually punished for these acts, Sure, Robin pulls something similer, and Tibarn gives her a scare, but she's still constantly praised by Daien and never properly punished for committing war crimes. She and Robin both get away with deplorable acts because they are both huge sues.

Once again, I simply reiterate that is my theory on the Grimleal that would make the most sense. Heck, the points you make make it make more sense. Aversa states in chap. 22 that the defeat of King Gangrel in the first war of the game caused horrible times for Plegia which drove people to Grima. I can see people becoming suicidal in mass when the country has no order or controlling government keeps people from killing everyone over various goods.

I commend your commitment tho. I happen to like the games plot, but I know my opinions generally aren't agreed with around here. I respect yours, and am enjoying this debate. You obviously don't like the plot, and that's okay. Heck until recently I did too, but neither of us are going to change opinions, and we both seem to have an endless supply of counterpoints for each other. All well, if you want to continue this go on ahead, and I'll continue along.

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Each arc could have had its own game, seriously. My problem is that IS tried to do too much and it shows. The ideas ARE there, but they were executed poorly. It's like they wrote up 3 different scenarios for Awakening's plot at first then decided to shove all of them in at once.

First arc could have fleshed out the history between Pelgia and Ylisse. We could have had more insight on who Chrom's dad was, it could have been a lesson in grey morality.

Second arc could have been a redux of PoR. We could learn more about Walhart and his ideals. Maybe he started from nothing or was oppressed by another country and learned that cooperation must be obtained by force. His Generals could teach us more about him and Valm. We could have had insight as to why they follow him (Pheiros did this, and for some reason the grey morality strong female general was the one that got killed off in favor of silly mustache man and self absorbed transgender tactician). Hell, conflicts between the Generals would give us a good subplot. Sacred Stones was fucking amazing at giving us the antagonist PoV.

The third arc, for all its contrived bullshit, could have even been salvaged. Everything about Robin should be wiped from existence, or make Robin an established character who's been Chrom's childhood friend since like ever or something. Give us insight into the theology of the Grimeal. I wouldn't mind something like Lopt. Say Grima provided for people in his land but also did so at the cost of the rest of the world (took their resources to provide for his land). This gives the first exalt a reason to strike him down.

In fact, this first and third arc could be fused via time skip. Maybe Chrom's dad did what he did to Plegia out of extreme prejudice thanks to his misguided sense of destiny. Chrom could step in his father's shoes and see Plegia actively supporting themselves at the cost of others. What would he do then?

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I base my assumption there would be no way to beat said antagonists on simple logic. Considering that Chrom himself is about as effective a leader as the antagonists(see how he handled Plegia after the first war), not even Robin's sueness would pull their butts out of the fire should something go wrong due to Chrom insisting on stupid actions such as accepting a diplomatic meeting he himself admitted was a trap.

If that's the case then Chrom shouldn't have been written that way if the narrative wasn't going to properly address his actions. Sigurd was a pawn for his kingdom's expansionism, getting called out for his actions by Lewyn and later dying after outliving his role. Chrom blunders his way around after Gangrel's defeat without really developing or being scrutinized.

I've also already stated what Grima was doing in those two years, trying to merge with Robin, once again I'm placing blame for why he doesn't need him at the Dragon's Table on the fact that all of chap.23 is a giant asspull

Asspull or not, it's in the narrative.

If Gangrel counts as a major antagonist, so does Ephidel, since they spend similer amounts of time onscreen, and have a large impact on the plot

They're both starter foes. Ephidel wasn't even Nergal's top morph.

Mary Sue characters I've seen typically don't like how they are treated, and usually humble. While there are exceptions to this rule, it doesn't change the fact that the whole Daein army has an unhealthy worship of Miccy.

Keyword: Unhealthy. It's pointed out how unnerving it is that Micaiah's troops are so loyal to her. While Robin being so fixated on by Chrom's army is played embarrassingly straight.

Also, while Ike does take her role as main protagonist, it means nothing, since he's just a bigger stu anyway. It doesn't change the fact that she's a huge sue even after Ike appears. Yune is one of many problems I have with RDs plot, but considering she IS a Goddess, and said Goddess decided Micaiah was the only person suitable to carry her.

A Mary Sue is expected to have control of the narrative. Micaiah in the later portions of the game gets shafted to the point that her goddess is pumping up Ike for him to beat the final boss.

She can talk to gods? Big deal. By the time the player armies reached Ashera talking to deities had already stopped being Micaiah-only.

One more thing about Miccy, she commits said evil acts as you put it, and is never actually punished for these acts, Sure, Robin pulls something similer, and Tibarn gives her a scare, but she's still constantly praised by Daien and never properly punished for committing war crimes. She and Robin both get away with deplorable acts because they are both huge sues.

Micaiah's oil trick was treated as an atrocity by both sides, with Micaiah herself being doubtful of what she did. Robin having a fleet burnt got him praised by Chrom and Co., with Robin himself breezing through it like he was fighting bandits.

You could have at least had Lucina use the burning fleet against Robin as she tries to kill him.

Once again, I simply reiterate that is my theory on the Grimleal that would make the most sense. Heck, the points you make make it make more sense. Aversa states in chap. 22 that the defeat of King Gangrel in the first war of the game caused horrible times for Plegia which drove people to Grima. I can see people becoming suicidal in mass when the country has no order or controlling government keeps people from killing everyone over various goods.

Except that doesn't address how Grima became the figure of worship for Plegia to begin with. Or how the Grimleal lack history and ideology.

Edited by Alazen

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