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FE13 Tier List + Character Comparisons


Espinosa
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And thats not even counting her as a Hero which is another good class choice for her.

Yep. My favourite is still Bride!Cordelia because she is the perfect waifu, but Hero looks awesome on her.

I still like Bride better because Lancefaire Shenanigans.

Aversa can also make a pretty good bride, with Shockstick Trolling Strats.

She has the magic to make it work + lancefaire. Add to that Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Swordbreaker, Speed+2, and you have a pretty funny unit there. Sad though she caps speed at 45 instead of 46. (46 allows Cordy to double Sorcerer!Miriel)

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SO Ricken

42Spd as a Sage, or 41 as DreadFighter. His other classes are pretty much a joke, unless you plan on rocking a Paladin with 40 speed and hoping to bank on that +2 Mag modifier for Shockstick/Levin sword lulz, or his -1 Str/Def for ...

Available Skills:

Magic +2
Focus
[b]Lifetaker[/b]
[b]Tomefaire[/b]
[b]Slow Burn[/b]
 
Prescience
Skill +2
Bowfaire
[b]Bowbreaker[/b]
[b]Hit Rate+20[/b]
 
Outdoor Fighter?
[b]Aegis[/b]
[b]Luna[/b]
 
Resistance+10


He's strikingly similar to Chrom, skillwise, subbing in Mage tree over Lord, which is quite frankly, awful. He gets Tomefaire, which is ok if you feel like rocking 45 Magic as a dread fighter and 41 speed, but it's not that threatening IMO when he's camping on 38 defense and Aegis. Celica's Gale gives him 51Mt over Res (x2), which I when paired with Lifetaker, isn't that bad.

If you go Sage, you essentially trade your 8 Def for 8 Mag & +1 Speed, which off of Forseti, is fairly safe, as it's only doubled by Femsassin with Spd+2. You'll never quad anything with a Celica's Gale (reason enough not to be in A-tier) and your 59 Mt over Res, twice with Luna procs, makes him about nearly as deadly as Sumia, who's clearly higher tier than he is. Since Luna's damage is based off of the opponent, not the attacker, his +2 Mag modifier doesn't do him any major favors, unless you feel like going ultimate muscle here and throwing Mag+2 & Tomefaire on for 55 base Mag, which is still questionable, if you think about it.

[spoiler=Def vs Res on classes]

Class	Def	Res	Difference	Luna Damage+ v Res (Pre-Modifier)
Valkyrie	30	45	15	22
Trickster	30	40	10	20
Dark Flier	32	41	9	20
Sage		31	40	9	20
Falcon Knight	33	40	7	20
Swordmaster	33	38	5	19
War Monk/Cleric	38	43	5	21
Dread Fighter	39	43	4	21
Sorcerer	41	44	3	22
Grandmaster	40	40	0	20
Paladin		42	42	0	21
Manakete	40	40	0	20
Assassin	31	30	-1	15
Bride		41	40	-1	20
Great Lord (M)	42	40	-2	20
Hero		40	36	-4	18
Berserker	34	30	-4	15
Dark Knight	42	38	-4	19
Warrior		40	35	-5	17
Bow Knight	35	30	-5	15
Taguel		35	30	-5	15
Sniper		40	31	-9	15
Griffon Rider	40	30	-10	15
Conqueror	45	35	-10	17
General		50	35	-15	17
Wyvern Lord	46	30	-16	15
Great Knight	48	30	-18	15






With consideration of Luna procs here, you're seeing an additional

He's probably High C / Low B at best due to Luna availability within his tier list and an overwhelming presence of Magic, to combine with all kinds of ways to tank Magic and make sure he hits you. His physical durability is the definition of lacking, as his durable classes drop his speed to problem points. He's not outlasting Sorcerers, he's not beating out Assassins, Brave [Melee] classes with anything really, and . Trolling with Superior Axe/Edge/Jolt can help him out, so in a 1 v 1 scenario, he's not all that bad if his opponent has to predict and/or get around it. Ricken is early-battle bait though, and among the glass cannons that are magic users, he's just so outclassed compared to his damage output that he can't realistically be that much higher than the NOPROCS like Lissa&Emmeryn (whom both tote comparable speed, but access to Galeforce, Renewal and Miracle to prolong longevity), Panne (who's going to run Assassin and comfortably double you, or Bride and tank your 70-ish single strikes and dish out a counter that is pretty likely to hit about as hard) and Cherche (sry based waifu)

I dunno I find the necessity of Luna-proc'ing to be viable in a class that gets potentially quad'd to not be acceptable in the metagame's upper half.

Edited by Elieson
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Gangrel and Henry also are really good overall. Their avoid and hit can get up to crazy levels thanks to Hex/Anathema/Lucky Seven, and they still get huge power with Axefaire + Vengeance. Add to that HP recovery with Lifetaker.

They can also wreck most of sages too.

Hex and Anathema do nothing to your avoid actually. Using a Sorc-slayer has both its advantages and disadvantages, I guess. Dread Fighters with Tomebreaker and some sort of -faire skills are probably the best Sorc-slayers.

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Cordelia should be rated above Priam.

Priam gets wrecked by tomes, and especially Sage Sumia, who hardcounters him.

He will not double any Forseti!Sage minus Kellam. He will not double any 42 speed sorcerers.

Cordelia is so hard to face it's crazy.

She litterally has no weaknesses.

Good defense + Vengeance + Assassin lv speed means ORKOing her without some Aether double proc or Astra double proc is tough... That is also if you don't fall on one of her breakers.

Either she gets WTA, either she gets Breaker Power. Priam has nothing against tomes minus Res+10.

Cordelia can counter Axe, Bow, or tome regarding her breakers. Meaning attacking her with one of those is really dangerous.

She can counter Swords as a Bride because she has lances, and can counter Lances as a Hero because she gets Axes.

She can counter Lances as a Bride because she has Superior Lance+, and can counter swords as a Hero because she has Superior Edge+.

Boom, you get someone who has guaranteed hit on most of characters with 80+% Vengeance, and good defensive stats.

The reason why Gangrel and Henry are okay as Berserkers is because they're not that great defensive-wise.

The reason why Sorcerers are okay with vengeance is because their speed allows them to be doubled.

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How is Sumia!Sage a hard counter for Priam? No breakers and Hit-or-miss Pavise don't strike me as a hard counter.

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How is Sumia!Sage a hard counter for Priam? No breakers and Hit-or-miss Pavise don't strike me as a hard counter.

She can actually double him any time she wants.

Unless he goes Balmung or Yewfelle, 47 speed Sumia with Forseti will double him and make him feel sad.

She totally destroys Dread Fighter priam for this reason with a Celica's gale.

Assassin Priam remains weak to her because he won't ORKO, if I'm correct. (counting same amount of Luna for same amount of Pavise)

While she can make him feel pain because of no tomebreaker/aegis.

Edited by Nintales
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Priam!Hero/Dread Fighter are pretty bad options for him when he craves the 46 speed from Assassin

Sumia either dubs that with Forseti for 38 Woah that's massive or 28 with Celica's. She still takes a hefty hit back if Priam goes w/ Vantage & potential Swordbreaker though, and gets hurt pretty hard if Priam does in fact run Res+10.

I wouldn't say hard counter since she still risks taking hefty damage from Priam back (I'd call a hard counter someone like Gangrel, who's destroying Sorcerer!Aversa and not getting hit in return). I agree with the point on Counter though.

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I may have gone overboard.

But the thing is that Cordelia has no pure counter. The only thing I can think countering Cordelia is herself or a MU specifically made for that. The only issue about the latter is that you don't know if she'll be a Bride or a Hero.

Cordelia is way too unpredictable to be countered, and is a hero on her own. For each character, you can relegate him as "assassin counter", "sorcerer counter", et cetera. But for Cordelia, you cannot get a "hero counter" or "waifu counter" because both classes suit her well and she has breakers to wreck you.

Priam can be countered by sages. Not hard-countered, but as his speed will be 46, he won't be able to double any 42 speed sage. And if he doesn't run Res+10, he gets hurt hard.

Edited by Nintales
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Priam with Res+10 is simply terrible. He has tons of breakers, couple of faires, Pavise and Vantage.

But yeah, a sage hits him hard, but he alsp hits hard, so there's that. Unless sumia runs renewal and pavises one or two hits, she'll get rekt next turn.

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Cordelia can only run 5 skills, and, as such, there will be potentilal Cordelia-associated functions she simply won't be able to perform. The recentest games have shown very well what consequences guessing wrongly which skills these are can bring, but it's still a much more limited skillset than Robin's and the job options of Hero and Bride, occasionally Sorc, also limit what Cordelia can do.

It's probable that Cordelia should be #2 unit on the gen1 character list, but I'm not satisfied with the reasons you cited at all. Since when should we be worried about performance against Sage Sumia as if the whole metagame supposedly revolved about being able to face this uncommon class choice for an already relatively uncommon unit? It also seems that Sages are as reluctant to attack anyone as the opponent is to attack them (much akin to Sorcs, except lacking recovery and packing a tiny bit more speed and magic while losing a ton of valuable physical defence), all because of tomes' shared 1-2 range.

There are plenty of things Cordelia can't do. She can't apply much pressure to a team while at full health, and she doesn't double very easily. She's dangerous to attack, but so is any user of Vengeance, except Cordelia has a vast range of skills to make taking her out a seriously demanding mindgame, and she also has the (nerfed) Galeforce. But we've had plenty of games where Cordelia was taken out painlessly by the opposition and/or failed to make a lasting contribution offensively.

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Cordelia can't apply much pressure to a team while at full health, but can't be ORKO'd without some procs. And doubling her with Spd+2 and Balmung/Yewfelle is impossible, as she reaches 51 speed. (only Spd+2 Spd+ Def/Lck- MU can double her with Balmung or Yewfelle)

Galeforce is not that great in my opinion. Locking you into a turn can sometimes make you lose because of things like Vengeance. Maybe that's just my playstyle.

At least, she should be above Priam. Way scarier than he is.

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44 speed is just so damn safe, especially with Spd+2 metagame involved. She can't be quad'd except by the fastest of fast in a Fem'sassin with Spd+2 (or I guess a swordfemster), and 44 in itself is safe from getting quad'd by Yen'Fay, the only practical 49+ speed unit in the game aside from Robin.

You can't safely apply pressure to Tiamo because she's liekly not dying in one round, and softens up her opponents by just enough to allow Brave [unit] to swoop in and deal the 50-60 damage that they need to, to finish the job.

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Cordelia can't apply much pressure to a team while at full health, but can't be ORKO'd without some procs

Can you name some key units who are?

Cordelia may scare you into not attacking her, but that's how we viewed Sorcs earlier in the metagame - they seem to not be given as much prominence any longer. Meanwhile, Priam plays a vital role in securing kills earlygame (since you want to not touch Vengeance doods much until then), and it's hard to say which should be prioritised. A team that loses its key units early on to Luna procs and correctly applied -breakers can scarcely emerge triumphant by virtue of Cordelia and other Vengeance users alone.

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Can you name some key units who are?

Gangrel's primary existence is based around being able to bumrush sorcerers and slightly slower Dreadfighters

Nearly anything with a vengeance proc boost that gets quad'd. 80% chance to do say, +10 damage (not difficult to achieve) when you quad already for 10, or double for 30, isn't an unrealistic expectation with proc rates in the 80s.

Cordelia may scare you into not attacking her, but that's how we viewed Sorcs earlier in the metagame - they seem to not be given as much prominence any longer. Meanwhile, Priam plays a vital role in securing kills earlygame (since you want to not touch Vengeance doods much until then), and it's hard to say which should be prioritised. A team that loses its key units early on to Luna procs and correctly applied -breakers can scarcely emerge triumphant by virtue of Cordelia and other Vengeance users alone.

Sorcs are most certainly still part of the metagame. The metagame is evolving to demand speed, which revolves around Assassins & Berserkers. Next in line are Sorcerers, mainly because Gangrel exists as an Anti-Sorc, and you can throw Tomebreaker on Robin, who's clearly the best assassin and a pretty common one too. Also, Brides being common on teams face like 20 damage at most from Sorcerers, which is hardly threatening at all, when faced with Cordelia/Aversa running Tomebreaker and whatever else and rolling procs on counter. Who wants to eat a counter from a Vengeance user?

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I just realised I accidentally omitted Dark Knight from the class tier list. Where should we put it?

There are two jobs that contest Dark Knight as a viable class set. One is Sorc, winning +3 mag, +6 res while losing -2 skl, -1 def. Dark Knight offers sword access at the cost of Aversa's Night (and also to a lesser extent Waste, Mire). Since I noticed people had stopped relying on Aversa's Night too much as the equipped tome (though recovery is still tactically beneficial in certain situation even with the loss of customised mt/hit), I thought I'd try DK!Aversa in my current match with Jedi, since Aversa also happens to not suffer negative str mods and can therefore pull out the Brave Sword with a decent outcome against certain targets. Having swords in addition to tomes means you have options against units with high res, Tomebreaker and/or Aegis.

Among male units, Dark Knight faces competition from Dread Fighter, which wins +4 str, +1 spd, +5 res, losing -3 mag, -3 def. This makes Dark Knight a more magically-oriented DF, but some may really care about the loss of axes.

I say it's at least as viable as Sage, possibly more viable.

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But it's available to more people. It seems a decent class, but I can only see Aversa pulling it off. That's more due to reclasses than due to the class itself, though.

You mean, Shadowgift, right?

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That's one reason. In order to be a Dark Knight, a unit must either have access to Mage or Dark Mage. However, all the dark mages would rather be other classes, including sorcerer for dark tomes. The people with mage reclass, meanwhile, tend to have pretty bad modifiers.

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Yea

I dunno, looking at the modifiers and everything, you've got a significantly more physically defensive class (compared to Sage) that's got -2 speed. Unfortunately, that -2 speed comes at a huge cost, because that means:

As DK, 40 speed for

Ricken

Maribelle

Libra

Henry

Anna

As DK, 41 speed for

Miriel

Aversa (or 43)

Cordelia (or 43)

Tiki

You're in hefty range for being doubled by common Brides, virtually all Assassins, and even some Heroes, and your offensive parameters aren't anything stellar, what with Tomefaire giving you 46 Mag, and 38 Str with Swords being extremely underwhelming.

My main beef with Dark Knights is that they just have such an underwhelming offense, that they essentially need a ##Faire & a ##Proc to stay relevant in battle. I guess with Balmung/Forseti, they're a bit more threatening, but 45 (or 47) speed before modifiers isn't doubling very much, aside from Chrom, and it's not doubling for a lot. The only proc that any Non-Ricken/Sumia DK has is Vengeance at best, and since it's coupled with something like a 38 str before mods with swords (and no Swordfaire) or 46 mag with Tomefaire, it just seems to need a lot.

Your common DK will be Aversa/Cordelia, and they're forced to run Speed+2 and Vengeance to remain relevant, meaning that their offense hovers at 45 at best with mods and tomes, and barely passable speed. If you're locked to Non-Dark tomes, Tomebreaker still harms you because you're running a mediocre 38+9 (+3 if no WTD) with Braves, and barely more with Balmung, which lets you double virtually nothing sans Walhart (for 0+Vengeance damage btw). Assassins run that much attack, but run the ability to Quadproc with much higher skill and speed. Luna still wrecks Dark Knights (dealing +21 per hit before mods) and anything hitting you with Luna likely isn't taking that much in return.

Sorcerers are threatening because Aversa's Night relevance within the meta is massive, and DK!Aversa (running Spd+2, Vengeance & Shadowgift) has 2 free skill slots and 43 speed which is just barely safe from getting double'd by some assassins, but runs 37/44 offensive parameters whichs while still underwhelming, is decent I guess. Why not run Sorcerers, who match speed but have +3 Mag, free up a skill slot for something more relevant and naturally get Dark Tome access?

Class	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res
Sage	80	30	46	43	42	45	31	40
Sorc	80	30	44	38	40	45	41	44
D.K.	80	38	41	40	40	45	42	38

Between Sage and DK, if you're running say, Ricken/Miriel, you could go DK, but then you're hovering at 41 speed at best (46 with Forseti at best), which doesn't double any relevant Chrom, barely avoids getting quad'd by most assassins and with 46(+2+Mods) Mag before Mt, barely harms commonplace Brides with Forseti before procs. With Celica's & Tomefaire, Ricken/Miriel hit 55 MT, harming brides and Chroms for roughly 10-15 per hit before proc, and gets slaughtered back by assassins that don't get double-proc KO'd since 41 & Best speed gets potentially quad'd by every non-Kellam assassin.

It'll hurt Heroes and Assassins at least

IMO Dark Knight is a gimmick that works alright with Ricken since it gives him some offset durability in exchange for a ballbusting 40 speed, but in a meta where Speed is everything, and 45-46 speed is not hard to reach, Dreadfighter defensive parameters and a lack of valuable breakers, Pavise and life-absorbing magic to help maintain survival, it's just outclassed by Sage which pushes damage to the maximum, or Sorcerer which pushes survival to the maximum.

Edited by Elieson
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So...effectively, everyone has a better class?

Looking at the caps back to back, that's...much less appealing that I thought. Aversa as a Dark Knight can still work, but you're right, swords are indeed better off with different people. No one has a Mage/Myrmidon besides the avatar I think, so good -faire skills are out the window.

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