FE13 Tier List + Character Comparisons

[AnonymousSpeed]

Which is what the other four members of your team are for.

[Elieson]

Why run 4 good units and 1 outclassed unit when you could run 5 good units?

[Espinosa]

You're in hefty range for being doubled by common Brides

What exactly is a "common Bride", spd-asset RobinF with Spd+2? Because Brides have only an advantage of 2 spd over a Dark Knight. Enough to double with Yewfelle when the target is not receiving any spd gains from equipment? Sure, but this also applies to everyone who's simply not faster than you.

virtually all Assassins

So you equip Forseti or Balmung for 45 spd. Assassins have a base of 46 and generally dislike being countered by Forseti (especially bolstered by Vengeance). A Dark Knight that is severely weakened but doesn't die is also a ticking bomb because of Vengeance.

My main beef with Dark Knights is that they just have such an underwhelming offense, that they essentially need a ##Faire & a ##Proc to stay relevant in battle

Everyone sorta needs procs to be relevant (besides specific Berserker builds who are capable of dishing out crazy damage without procs), and Dark Knights get the best one of them all.

but 45 (or 47) speed before modifiers isn't doubling very much, aside from Chrom

What's a Sorcerer doubling then? Not much, yet it's still viable because of Vengeance and Celica's Gale, or Lifetaker. Miriel can't even double non-Balmunged Conqueror!Walhart; why would anyone use her?

The only proc that any Non-Ricken/Sumia DK has is Vengeance at best, and since it's coupled with something like a 38 str before mods with swords (and no Swordfaire) or 46 mag with Tomefaire, it just seems to need a lot.

You're saying that as if Vengeance is the most lacklustre skill ever! It's the only current proc skill that has been seriously considered for a ban for crying out loud.

Also, 38 base strength is the same as a Swordmaster's (1 point less than the ubiquitous Assassin!Fobin w/ +spd-lck), and DK only loses 3 points of mag to a Sorc, all while having more flexibility in weapon types.

What does make a more lasting effect on offence is Vengeance's boost however, but the offensive bases are more than passable and, in fact, essentially Dread Fighter's offensive bases in reverse.

forced to run... Vengeance

That's terrible, right, skill slot completely wasted.

If you're locked to Non-Dark tomes, Tomebreaker still harms you

Anyone equipped with any given weapon type (besides some weird Taguel Morgans in the 2nd gen meta) is vulnerable to eating a -breaker from that weapon type. A Sorc is way more vulnerable to Tomebreaker because of not having an additional weapon type though, and you cannot tell what a DK has equipped before you attack them.

which lets you double virtually nothing sans Walhart

DK's ability to double is precisely equivalent to a Sorc's ability to double. I really like how you're assuming that if a DK clashes with Walhart at all, it has to be with a Brave Sword and not Forseti or Celica's Gale or something.

Assassins run that much attack, but run the ability to Quadproc with much higher skill and speed

If it's Aversa/Cordelia with Speed+2, an Assassin needs to have 48/49 AS to 4x attack with a brave weapon. Flavia, Priam, Stahl are some of the units who fail to reach even so much AS. Many more fail to get to 49 AS.

You also can't guarantee the quadprocs will occur. In the same way, you can speak of Chrom's ability to ORKO random units at full HP because Aether will always proc, or of Libra's ability to stay alive for the entire battle because of Miracle/Renewal. This hardly always happens.

Also don't forget about the fact that being countered with Forseti tends to hurt a lot, especially when it comes to an Assassin's ~30 res; that's not even taking Vengeance into account. You "quad" a Dark Knight and next turn you lose your Assassin because you lost too much HP; was it worth it?

anything hitting you with Luna likely isn't taking that much in return

Priam, Flavia and Stahl are all units impervious to magical damage (and Vengeance) is what you're saying, I'm guessing.

Sorcerers are threatening because Aversa's Night relevance within the meta is massive

Now this is a point I can really agree with; however, we nerfed the tome to where you often find yourself running Hex in order to connect attacks on non-Tomebreaker units with it, and Forseti is way more often equipped on Sorcs than Aversa's Night since it gives you higher chances of surviving an enemy phase. Anyone with tomes can equip that, and a Dark Knight doing so functions exactly as a Sorc would at this stage.

It's also not the end of the world if Aversa runs Shadowgift and does regain access to her dark tomes. You essentially trade a single skill slot for sword access.

Why not run Sorcerers, who match speed but have +3 Mag, free up a skill slot for something more relevant and naturally get Dark Tome access?

I haven't come to a point where I suggested Dark Knight is better than Sorcerer; I do think it's still a viable alternative however.

The primary reason to run a Dark Knight is because of the additional weapon type.

IMO Dark Knight is a gimmick that works alright with Ricken

Ricken is the one who's the gimmick here; Dark Knight actually has a purpose in specific context.

in a meta where Speed is everything

It's important but it's not everything. Skills arguably matter the most (otherwise Panne would be on every team), as do raw stats, and having flexibility in weapon choice and leaving your equipped weapon uncertain are all extremely valuable traits as time has shown.

barely harms commonplace Brides with Forseti before procs

Bow users barely harm (or literally don't at all) Generals and Walhart before procs, too. Raw str/mag stats matter most when it's somebody with 50 or so power using them, or the target hovers around 30 in the respective defensive stat (which all Assassins do).

outclassed by Sage which pushes damage to the maximum

How many Sages have Vengeance to really hope to "push damage to the maximum"?

or Sorcerer which pushes survival to the maximum

And who don't always survive very well because, unlike DKs, they can't unlock themselves out of a tome in case a Tomebreaker unit attacks. How exactly does Miriel push survival to the maximum when she's doubled and quad'd by a Berserker Gangrel whose Lucky Seven/Tomebreaker nearly guarantee Miriel won't get a counter in.

So...effectively, everyone has a better class?

Looking at the caps back to back, that's...much less appealing that I thought. Aversa as a Dark Knight can still work, but you're right, swords are indeed better off with different people. No one has a Mage/Myrmidon besides the avatar I think, so good -faire skills are out the window.

A Mage (sans Miriel) doesn't make a good Dark Knight because of no Vengeance. And yeah, nobody but Robin can run Vantage and Vengeance at the same time.

The only reason to use DK over sorcerer or sage is if you're scared of getting walled by tomebreaker

It's quite a good reason. Landing a Vengeance-powered brave attack without fearing Aegis on suspected carriers is another good reason.

[AnonymousSpeed]

I think the reason Dark Knight doesn't work as well except on Aversa is because, as you said, a Mage Dark Knight doesn't have Vengeance, but a Dark Mage would really, really like Dark Tomes. Now, there's potential with Aversa, balmung mind games to counter Gangrel while still having Aversa's Night, but most people just aren't quite suited for the job like she is.

[Elieson]

What exactly is a "common Bride", spd-asset RobinF with Spd+2? Because Brides have only an advantage of 2 spd over a Dark Knight. Enough to double with Yewfelle when the target is not receiving any spd gains from equipment? Sure, but this also applies to everyone who's simply not faster than you.

Common Bride - Cordelia / Sumia with Speed+2

So you equip Forseti or Balmung for 45 spd. Assassins have a base of 46 and generally dislike being countered by Forseti (especially bolstered by Vengeance). A Dark Knight that is severely weakened but doesn't die is also a ticking bomb because of Vengeance.

Unless they don't learn Vengeance (Ricken, Virion, Nowi, Tiki), utilize a class with more offense/speed to not need Forseti/Balmung to avoind being doubled but still dish out super damage with vengeance, possibly more using applicable ##Faires which demands taking less damage to dish out an equatable amount, and allowing the flexibility of a forge that would be more accurate to offset the demand for speed to avoid being doubled when thresholds might not be met (Cordelia, Sumia, Tharja.

Everyone sorta needs procs to be relevant (besides specific Berserker builds who are capable of dishing out crazy damage without procs), and Dark Knights get the best one of them all.

Only if they get it from a Dark Mage, otherwise all they get is Tomefaire. Vengeance is also far more threatening with Aversa's Night backing it, which Dark Knights sans Aversa aren't rolling

What's a Sorcerer doubling then? Not much, yet it's still viable because of Vengeance and Celica's Gale, or Lifetaker. Miriel can't even double non-Balmunged Conqueror!Walhart; why would anyone use her?

Because with Tomefaire, she hits hard. That's why people make her into a Sorcerer (Aversa's Night for longevity) or Sage (even more explosions with her single hits/double with Celica's)

You're saying that as if Vengeance is the most lacklustre skill ever! It's the only current proc skill that has been seriously considered for a ban for crying out loud.

Also, 38 base strength is the same as a Swordmaster's (1 point less than the ubiquitous Assassin!Fobin w/ +spd-lck), and DK only loses 3 points of mag to a Sorc, all while having more flexibility in weapon types.

What does make a more lasting effect on offence is Vengeance's boost however, but the offensive bases are more than passable and, in fact, essentially Dread Fighter's offensive bases in reverse.

Flexibility, is my thought here. It's a moot point, but exists nonetheless.

And Swordmasters are pretty rarely fielded. Swordfaire helps mitigate the sub-40 str, not quad'ing universe that a DK is living in

k

Anyone equipped with any given weapon type (besides some weird Taguel Morgans in the 2nd gen meta) is vulnerable to eating a -breaker from that weapon type. A Sorc is way more vulnerable to Tomebreaker because of not having an additional weapon type though, and you cannot tell what a DK has equipped before you attack them.

And if you're not in Vengeance range, your using Braves with mediocre Str and you're certainly not doubling anything anytime soon, or using Tomes and facing accuracy issues.

DK's ability to double is precisely equivalent to a Sorc's ability to double. I really like how you're assuming that if a DK clashes with Walhart at all, it has to be with a Brave Sword and not Forseti or Celica's Gale or something.

DKs deal less damage with tomes than Sorcerers, and certainly Sages

DKs don't recover HP like Sorcerers do

DKs clashing with Walhart face Swordbreaker, or face his 33 Res

My point about walhart is, Dark Knights aren't realistically doubling anybody that's commonly fielded, except Generals and maybe Walharts.

If it's Aversa/Cordelia with Speed+2, an Assassin needs to have 48/49 AS to 4x attack with a brave weapon. Flavia, Priam, Stahl are some of the units who fail to reach even so much AS. Many more fail to get to 49 AS.

You also can't guarantee the quadprocs will occur. In the same way, you can speak of Chrom's ability to ORKO random units at full HP because Aether will always proc, or of Libra's ability to stay alive for the entire battle because of Miracle/Renewal. This hardly always happens.

Also don't forget about the fact that being countered with Forseti tends to hurt a lot, especially when it comes to an Assassin's ~30 res; that's not even taking Vengeance into account. You "quad" a Dark Knight and next turn you lose your Assassin because you lost too much HP; was it worth it?

Cordelia!DarkKnight is not very offensively threatening, even if she does have 43 speed to prevent being doubled, compared to Cordelia!Sorcerer.

Quadprocs are far more reliable when considering massive damage simple because 4 chances at a proc assures 4 strikes. Aether is generally at best, what, two 35% attempts. Four attempts at Luna or Vengeance are significantly more threatening than two 35%s.

Bowusers with Tomebreaker fear very little from Dark Knights that aren't Cordelia (running Bowbreaker herself). I guess I can bite on the idea that still takign a Vengeance Counter hit from a unit who takes maybe 30 damage and has Forseti/Balmung/Ragnell equipped can indeed hurt and put someone into the borderline cusp of Brave punishment.

Priam, Flavia and Stahl are all units impervious to magical damage (and Vengeance) is what you're saying, I'm guessing.

Now this is a point I can really agree with; however, we nerfed the tome to where you often find yourself running Hex in order to connect attacks on non-Tomebreaker units with it, and Forseti is way more often equipped on Sorcs than Aversa's Night since it gives you higher chances of surviving an enemy phase. Anyone with tomes can equip that, and a Dark Knight doing so functions exactly as a Sorc would at this stage.

Anathema is a team standard. Breakers exist on virtually every viable sorcerer, excluding the almost-mandatory Tomebreaker. Hit +20 is valuable in all circumstances, and Hex isn't a bad skill to run in an average of 155 hit (that's about 60-70% accuracy against most opponents not running Avo bonuses of their own). Sorcerers also equip Forseti to avoid getting smashed up by Assassins who ramcap speed.

Also, Sorcerer's higher base speed allows the flexibility to not need Forseti equipped for the duration of a battle as things begin to die.

It's also not the end of the world if Aversa runs Shadowgift and does regain access to her dark tomes. You essentially trade a single skill slot for sword access.

It's what makes her the most viable Dark Knight, and simultaneously makes her weaker than a Sorcerer.

I haven't come to a point where I suggested Dark Knight is better than Sorcerer; I do think it's still a viable alternative however.

Sub Viable for Possible, and I'll agree with you.

The primary reason to run a Dark Knight is because of the additional weapon type.

41 Atk Pre-MT with the additional Weapon Type vs Non-Lances is helpful to at least score a hit where Tomebreaker might exist, but looking at relevant class defenses, you're barely harming Brides, Dreadfighters,

Ricken is the one who's the gimmick here; Dark Knight actually has a purpose in specific context.

Ricken running Luna, Aegis, some Breakers and/or Tomefaire can at least hit hard. In an environment where he isn't getting quad'd by common threats, he'd be pretty good.

It's important but it's not everything. Skills arguably matter the most (otherwise Panne would be on every team), as do raw stats, and having flexibility in weapon choice and leaving your equipped weapon uncertain are all extremely valuable traits as time has shown.

I should've said Speed > Procs with multiple weapontypes > everything else.

With the amount of Anti-Sorcerers or at least Tomebreakers being thrown into builds, relegating your Dark Knight to avoiding Tomebreaker by shoving a sword on them is a subpar alternative to damage that, while at least hitting, is underwhelming compared to others.

Assassins are top rated because they can get around Pavise/Aegis pretty easily, have access to procs that often hurt, can attack without being countered and can hit hard without procs simply due to access to weapons that almost ensure a double strike and ##Faire access. For the lack of [Dark]Mage & Myrmidon combos, the most powerful Dark Knight is running 48Mag pre-Mt with a tome and Tomefaire and isn't getting that luxury of doubling. Brides like Cordelia get that luxury of running a similar Str, and boasting higher speed & defense/res combos.

Bow users barely harm (or literally don't at all) Generals and Walhart before procs, too. Raw str/mag stats matter most when it's somebody with 50 or so power using them, or the target hovers around 30 in the respective defensive stat (which all Assassins do).

I'd rather try to quad a General/Walhart with procs than not.

How many Sages have Vengeance to really hope to "push damage to the maximum"?

The most viable one (Miriel) does.

And who don't always survive very well because, unlike DKs, they can't unlock themselves out of a tome in case a Tomebreaker unit attacks. How exactly does Miriel push survival to the maximum when she's doubled and quad'd by a Berserker Gangrel whose Lucky Seven/Tomebreaker nearly guarantee Miriel won't get a counter in.

Miriel can run Miracle. Cordy can run Axebreaker. Giving Miriel anything sans Balmung means that Gangrel pretty much cuts her in half though i haven't calc'd the difference of WTD on axes, in which it's essentially +2 Def which probably matters since...they're hitting Gangrel...and putting him into Vengeance range...and taking a hit back that could easily be vengeance-powered to mitigate the Def difference...

A Mage (sans Miriel) doesn't make a good Dark Knight because of no Vengeance. And yeah, nobody but Robin can run Vantage and Vengeance at the same time.

Miriel has the Dark Mage tree...

It's quite a good reason. Landing a Vengeance-powered brave attack without fearing Aegis on suspected carriers is another good reason.

It's the primary reason from where i see

[Carmine Sword]

Miriel can't learn Miracle.

Libra does though, so that must mean he's better than Miriel right guys?

[Quintessence]

tl;dr

sorry :(

Idk, Dark Knight seems like an ok class, just average. Comparing it with Sage depends on the situation, Sages have higher Mag and Spd, but lose Str and Def considerably, and can be solo'd by Tomebreaker users. Dark Knights get weapon versatility, higher physical bulk, weakness to cavalry weapons (which are almost non existent, since people mostly run Braves depending on the number of weapons at their disposal, Forseti/Balmung/Yewfelle and Superior weapons, so yeah.

edit: even one-weapon classes like Swordmasters don't run eff weaponry

Edited August 6, 2015 by Quintessence

[AnonymousSpeed]

Except Hammers and Book of Naga, that being about it.

I assume discussion of theoretical class sets interests no one? Because I'd be understanding of that.

[Espinosa]

Made some slight changes to the character tier list. A new tier was made to distinguish between the better and the worse high tier characters, and a few characters moved up or down a tier / within a tier.

RobinF now stands above RobinM because of Speed+2 and Galeforce shenanigans. Flavia also somehow ended up as the 3rd/4th best character after Cordy, because I decided she's better than Priam (can quad Chrom, has Pavise to survive mammoth strength build assaults, Lucky Seven). Not quite sure if she really is the 3rd/4th best though.

[Quintessence]

Seems kinda better the tier list. I would be daring to say Frederick and Ricken might be higher because of Luna, probably top C tier or B bottom.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Freddy also has PavGis, for what that's worth.

[Melissa]

(Is surprised that Dread Fighter isn't higher)

Edited August 29, 2015 by Lord_Seliph

[Elieson]

It's generally outclassed by other classes that do its jobs better, and have higher speed caps

[Espinosa]

Yeah, it's too slow when compared to other classes in a vacuum but some characters make pretty damn good Dread Fighters. Chrom is one, because it's likely his best class and Chrom is such a good unit, and Gangrel is another because of his +3 speed mod and Vengeance. Warrior/Dread Fighter Gangrels are IMHO at least as viable as the ubiquitous Berserkers, though I'm biased against single-weapon type classes in general.

[Melissa]

Hmmm....

[Quintessence]

What I think is that Dread Fighter is a pretty average class in terms of stats. Quite balanced, but he isn't so THWOMP nor so offensive. His access to Swords, Axes and Tomes allows him to be versatile and bring up some surprise element to the game, but his durability really depends on the character though, because some breaker can press on and practically nullify him. I haven't had good experiences with Dread Fighters at all so far, so I may be missing some of his virtues.