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Thane Tali

Efficient Strategy?

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So ... we have some interesting things on our hands.

a) Debuffs from weapons, which apparently stack [i heard that Silver debuffs add up over consecutive battles.]

b) An inability to double with most 1-2 range weaponry, the exceptions being Tomes.

c) Nosferatu nerf [can't double].

d) Nohrian terrain, map layout and varied objectives.

e) A lot of Player Phase oriented skills, like Prescient Victory or Belka's Ambush skill, or things like Flamboyant and Line of Death which make it inadvisable for units to take on tanking roles.

There's an obvious shift in emphasis from Enemy-Phase action to Player Phase actions. The weapons have also gone some interesting shifts: Bows are part of the triangle, have some interesting slayer options and Prescient Victory is a solid skill, especially when you factor in that bows can double at range. Myrmidons and Archers are no longer straight-forward the weakest, high-movement classes are not by default the best because while they can get places faster they can do less when they get there and a shift to a predominantly not-Seize or Bosskill playstyle is upon us, if Nohr is any indication. Our previous understanding of how to play Fire Emblems is being rewritten.

Going forward, what will be the best way to play the game at a brisk place? Reliable player-phase offense seems to be very valuable since our tanks won't also be our routers. What does everyone think?

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The three routes play very differently.

Hoshido by it's own manner is technically weaker, and as such, the easier enemies doesn't directly translate to an easier game. Mind you, the enemies are still scaling at roughly the same pace.

In Hoshido, your main problem is that tanking hits is nigh impossible (physical hits anyway), so it requires either dodgetanking (Flowing Strike), ranged attacks, first strike initiative (Swallow Strike), or more careful unit placements

In Nohr, the enemies start having obnoxious skills (especially on the higher difficulties), meaning you're going to have to bend over backwards to keep up with the skills. Time limits force you to rush headon into enemies, so it gets really ridiculous at times. While your units can tank, there still isn't any "Invincible tank ORKO machine" character, so you still have to balance things around

Invisible Kingdom is..well I'm not sure how to describe it for now, it's technically a more difficult Hoshido with both sets of characters.

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Efficient strategy? I'll tell you all about that:

Marry Xander to Felicia, get Tomebreaker, make him best buds with Ryouma and get Swordfaire and Vantage and violà, you've got yourself a guy that dodges spells and hardly takes any physical damage. It also helps that his sword has a 1-2 range, meaning that you can't kite him with normal weapons.

And that's how I beat the third route.

Well, that and having Takumi killing everything in one hit. The rest of my army were sipping cocktails and talking about the weather.

Edited by Thane

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Though, Tomebreaker is obtained at Level 15, which is kinda late in the game though (because exp walls prevent you from just grinding to the max)

That means you just got to be a bit more careful with the mages. He still takes no damage from physical attacks, unlike pretty much all Hoshido and most Nohr characters, meaning that he's pretty much crucial to use, meaning he'll get a lot of exp fast.

Xander gives a negative amount of fucks.

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Though, Tomebreaker is obtained at Level 15, which is kinda late in the game though (because exp walls prevent you from just grinding to the max)

What's this about Exp walls?

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What's this about Exp walls?

The exp formula "appears to be" changed. If you go too high, you're going to get only 1 exp per kill.

It's not entirely enforceable, because 1 exp is still exp

In a sense, it makes me wonder if the Paragon skill would be nearly as useful as it previously was, since being overlevelled gives you crap exp anyway.

Roughly speaking, if you're around 5-10 levels higher the exp plummets to paltry amounts

Edited by CocoaGalaxy

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Felicia/Jakob can get Tomebreaker fairly early so you could get a kid with it early. But I don’t think it’s very efficient regardless.

Imo right now it’s hard to tell how to play this game efficiently because attack stance (and Guard stance transferring) requires a lot of forethought to use at its highest potential (but who knows how necessary that is?)

Currently I suspect something like Corrin in Dread Fighter (if allowed) or Ninja with Marriage Seal’d Felicia/Jakob in Wyvern to fly around. It’s +5/6 Def (+7/8 in Nohr/Invisible at some point), plus some avoid if using Jakob. Tbh I feel like this somewhat breaks the low durability balance, and Hidden Weapons are decent 1-2 range besides. For the others, Ryouma has low Def/Res. Xander has low Spd/Res. Camilla has low Hp and bow weakness.

I think Corrin’s magic isn’t good enough for a mage router (+Mag means less Spd and Def), but rigging in subLunatic difficulties who knows? >_>

Anyways, it would probably have someone to fly Ryoma around in Hoshido, especially midgame when he steamrolls stuff. Potentially Marriage Seal’d into Paladin, but that’s fairly late and Jakob/Felicia would need something else. Also the avoid of Trueblade is hard to give up in higher difficulties (2hkos everywhere). Regardless, deploy others to clean up routs as necessary. Crimson is pretty much Hoshido!Camilla.

Nohr is trickier, particularly lategame. Midgame you have Camilla and Xander. But I think there’s too many Freeze/Weakness staff and other debuffs that will slow down Corrin+Jakob duos.

However, I think a generally good, basic strategy is to let someone in Guard Stance like Camilla midgame or Xander/Corrin (with possibly draconic curse) to tank a few things enemy phase and then clean things up on player phase with Attack stance.

Edited by XeKr

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Draconic Curse Avatar is really overly good (Dragonstone and Dragonstone+ Def/Res bonuses help as well), the thing is, not many chapters have real chokepoints.

The fact that there are times where reinforcements will just drop in (enemies on Nohr/Higher difficulties have cut through to get past your lines as well) makes it unfeasible at times to attempt a chokepoint strategy. It's not entirely bad but yeah....

Xander, Effie, (presumably Benoit as well) are your best tanks, Camilla and Crimson are passable as well, with the bonus of Rally Defense. Leo can tank both sides, but not physical as well as you'd like. Ryoma usually gets at least a 50% dodge chance most of the time, I can't recall worse odds, so it's kinda funny, and he can theoretically take 2 hits, his main enemy are enemy generals of course.

I should try to figure out who can get all the breaker skills (the bad thing is I'm pretty sure they all come in at Level 15).

The Avatar isn't invincible either, from runs I've seen the Avatar has the "jack of all trades" syndrome.

And the berserkers, can't forget the berserkers.

For example, on Hard, enemy Hana (in Nohr 22) has 42 attack, 42% chance to breaking sky, 37 speed. Freaking ridiculous

Minor details about Endgames, Hoshido E and Invisible Kingdom E are both overly straightforward. The irony is that IK Endgame is the most straightforward, Hoshido E at least has a moving boss (with 56! attack). Nohr Endgame makes you run across the map while he sics reinforcements and map attacks on you, but otherwise he can be dealt with in about 3-4 hits just like the other bosses.

Edited by CocoaGalaxy

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I think Corrins magic isnt good enough for a mage router (+Mag means less Spd and Def), but rigging in subLunatic difficulties who knows? >_>

+MAG -STR actually boosts SPD, lowering skill and defence by a measily 5. My Nohr Lunatic playthrough was Spellcaster +MAG -STR with parallel seal to Spellcaster as soon as I got Dragon's Fang, and it was very effective because nobody in early game has RES and Felicia gives a MAG bonus. +MAG is certainly viable, just arguably inferior to +SPD, +HP or +STR. Edited by gayserbeam

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I think Corrin is your best tank because of Jakob’s bonus. Also because his Spd is usually much better than Xander/Knights, the Guard stance gauge fills a lot faster, mitigating more damage.

+Def Dread Fighter seriously. You get +2 Spd from Shurikens (+2 more around midgame, spoilers. >_>) so you double most the time, even with Steel. You get +7 Def (+9 around midgame in Nohr/Invisible) and +15 avo from Great Knight Jakob. Res is already ridiculous from the class. You negate ~1/3 attacks because you fill 6/10 bars each round in Guard Stance.



+MAG -STR actually boosts SPD, lowering skill and defence by a measily 5. My Nohr Lunatic playthrough was Spellcaster +MAG -STR with parallel seal to Spellcaster as soon as I got Dragon's Fang, and it was very effective because nobody in early game has RES and Felicia gives a MAG bonus. +MAG is certainly viable, just arguably inferior to +SPD, +HP or +STR.

Less Spd/durability than +Spd/Hp/Def from opportunity cost is what I was implying. I tried +Mag and Corrin could barely double lategame (in Nohr Hard), even with a Ninja or Maid Pair up (and you have a lot less Def then). It’s interesting to hear it worked for you though.

As a random thought, I guess in Hoshido/Invisible you get that +3 Spd/Def spell which is really quite strong.

Edited by XeKr

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Oh right, Lance classes could use the Guard Naginata (+5 Def/Res) though it's pretty bare bones offensively.

Shame it's largely Hoshido I think

Hoshido still kinda gets the short end of the stick in it's own way

Edited by CocoaGalaxy

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Speaking about spell casters, if a +MAG Corrin is barely doubling, would taking a level of Pegasus classes (for Swallow Strike) push him/her into regularly doubling on the player phase?

Of would they still have speed issues…

i.e. Taking Pegasus as his/her secondary class, as a buddy seal class, or as his wife's/her husband's class?

Keep in mind that after a certain point in the game, you can also get magic weapons (lances/hidden for Hoshido and Invisible, swords/axes/bows for Nohr and Invisible). So you could use magic weapons in a class that was faster and rely on your 50% personal magic growth [regardless of class] to get the magic power necessary to do good damage while using the speed of the classes to double even more easily than before…

Granted, there are only like 1 magic weapon of each type from the shop at level 2 and I believe 2 at level 3, but +MAG Corrin has the potential of being hybrid unit, kind of like the Grandmaster of old…

At least, that's how I see it from theory crafting… but I don't actually have the game, so who knows….

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I do know that Hoshido does not have 1-2 range physical Naginatas which blows my fucking mind. Nohr seems to have the overall upper hand in weapons, but maybe I'm calling it too quickly.

What do people think of a debuff strat? The Holy Lancer's Defense Seal and Speed Seal debuffs blow my fucking mind, a Parallel Seal'd Takumi and Oboro could poke things on PP and EP and make PP cleanup significantly easier. Kaze and Kagerou could spread more of the love in Hoshido while Hana, Rinkah, Silas perform PP clean-up and Hinoka/Tsubaki can do flier things :P Basically an advancing formation that moves carefully and has an overall strat of setting up PP kills, but there isn't enough healing to go around without reliable tanking. Hinoka also gets Holy Lancer, so you might want to swap your debuffer around while keeping an eye on EP exposure ... Either way I'm pretty sure Oboro gets dibs on my first Master Seal since Holy Lancer speed seal is level *5*, holy cow.

Btw, that club with the ridic 55 crit and 45 hit - how early do you get it and does Rinkah hit with it reliably? I'm planning on having her Marriage seal up with Takumi for Flame Blood + Prescient Victory shenanigans [she can't get Axefaire in Hoshido ...] I'm going to want Ogre Strike for her, so if she misses with the thing half the time I'll also make sure to get her Raven Strike and explode things on PP.

If Res is crap then Orochi probs benefits a lot from debuffs too, since I think her Mag is ridic. Funny thing, Kagerou has high str growths and gets innate Breaking Sky and Kunaifaire access, so I don't even know if I want her to be a debuffers or a cleaner :P

Sounds like no-second-tier runs will be tricky. And isn't Dread Fighter InvisiKingdom-exclusive? Still leaves the other two route Kamuis in the cold. I can envision myself switching to drake mode a lot when I need a clutch thank. Wonder if I should get Kamui a Holy Lancer alt too ...

Tbh I was surprised the forum wasn't freaking out over the Lance Fighter class skills. I figured they would make PP, bosskilling and in general life, easier. Thoughts?

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Sounds like no-second-tier runs will be tricky. And isn't Dread Fighter InvisiKingdom-exclusive? Still leaves the other two route Kamuis in the cold. I can envision myself switching to drake mode a lot when I need a clutch thank. Wonder if I should get Kamui a Holy Lancer alt too ...

Dread Fighter and other bonus classes are not route-locked. You can get two Dread Scrolls, and therefore two Dread Fighters per file from simply owning two routes, so if you have the special edition, you're good.

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Dread Fighter and other bonus classes are not route-locked. You can get two Dread Scrolls, and therefore two Dread Fighters per file from simply owning two routes, so if you have the special edition, you're good.

... Now I *really* want Galeforce on Pieri.

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I do know that Hoshido does not have 1-2 range physical Naginatas which blows my fucking mind. Nohr seems to have the overall upper hand in weapons, but maybe I'm calling it too quickly.

Too short on time to answer everything, but I'll tackle this one :) It's balanced overall. Nohr doesn't have the throwing swords, Hoshido doesn't have the throwing spears. Nohr gets the Killer weapons and the effective vs class weapons, while Hoshido gets the "weapon triangle inversers" and the weapon type slayers.

By the way, you do get a copy of pretty much every weapon B rank or higher on the opposing path. So for example you get a copy of the Burning Shuriken and the +3 Speed Def Res spell even on Nohr; I can't confirm you get at least one of everything, but it's definitively pretty close if not. I don't think I ever got an A or S weapon from the other side, though.

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Tbh I was surprised the forum wasn't freaking out over the Lance Fighter class skills. I figured they would make PP, bosskilling and in general life, easier. Thoughts?

Too busy freaking out over Copycat Puppet. Especially in a player phase-oriented strategy, being able to take more actions is always a good thing.

Speed Seal is clearly the best Seal, though, and being able to combo with Defence Seal from the base class is undoubtedly convenient. Furthermore, you can switch to Basara after grabbing Lancefaire and proceed to wreck just about everything. You might be onto something here . . . but I would personally be more interested in getting to Basara via Spellcaster because Fortune looks like it can create a lot of potential . . . for no-grind runs, anyway.

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Oh, right, Copycat. I briefly wondered if I would take everyone who could take a level in Puppetmaster through that level just to get that skill, before realizing 'Sacrificeable Unit copies that I don't have to train, available at a level where I don't have to worry about EXP.' Yes, I will be creating my ultimate copyspam army :P Just thinking about Draconic Curse + Nohr shenanigans with KamuiClone is enough to set one's tactical heart aflutter. [A-Support Kaze, Buddy Seal, you can have two Kamuis regardless of route.]

Wait ... Azura ... Kaze ... Marriage Seal ... Puppet Dancer? O.O

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Oh, right, Copycat. I briefly wondered if I would take everyone who could take a level in Puppetmaster through that level just to get that skill, before realizing 'Sacrificeable Unit copies that I don't have to train, available at a level where I don't have to worry about EXP.' Yes, I will be creating my ultimate copyspam army :P Just thinking about Draconic Curse + Nohr shenanigans with KamuiClone is enough to set one's tactical heart aflutter. [A-Support Kaze, Buddy Seal, you can have two Kamuis regardless of route.]

Wait ... Azura ... Kaze ... Marriage Seal ... Puppet Dancer? O.O

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if the puppet dies, so does the actual unit. I was told this back in the other thread. Oh, and Azura's copycat can't sing.

Edited by Levant Colthearts

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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if the puppet dies, so does the actual unit. I was told this back in the other thread. Oh, and Azura's copycat can't sing.

I'm actually relieved, that makes it a bit more balanced. Hmm, it might not be as ubiquitous as I thought in that case. Sounds like a "Summon more firepower when needed" sorta deal.

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I'm actually relieved, that makes it a bit more balanced. Hmm, it might not be as ubiquitous as I thought in that case. Sounds like a "Summon more firepower when needed" sorta deal.

Never enuf dakka, tho.

(I don't actually play that particular series; a friend does.)

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I just heard that hire difficulties have the Seal skills on enemies [Of course, why did I think that wouldn't be a thing], ignoring class restrictions, and now I am mildly ticked :P

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