A failure to muddy a war. (FATES SPOILERS)

[Alazen]

I brought this up in the complete narrative topic. If Fates ever tried to muddy the waters of the war between the two kingdoms, then it didn't really do a good job.

To give contrast, in the Judgral games it was noted that Manster had tariffs on crops sent to Thracia. It was also noted that Manster nobles were abusing the tariff system. It was also noted that Quan was a pain to his allies, ordered border raids, and ultimately continued the bloodshed.

Hoshido VS Nohr? Fates didn't really do a good job (if at all) presenting Hoshido with the issues pre-Meiji Japan had that could have served to muddy the waters. One possible example of this is having Hoshidan oppression of a minority like the Christians. Another one is having Hoshido be expansionist and its troops maiming civilians like the Japanese in Korea.

Instead, you have Mikoto coming out of the story shining bright (or at least brighter than Garon). Aqua sings the praises of Hoshido to the point she and Corrin talk like fighting that kingdom in particular is this great sin. Meanwhile Nohrian troops do what are apparently war crimes and Iago, Ganz, with Fake Garon for last are puppy kickers while the actual Garon is underexplored. Counting playable units Nohr has more characters who, if not evil, are still shown as questionable at best (like Zero or Charlotte).

Edited July 17, 2015 by Alazen

[Taka-kun]

I too expected that Fates would actually show war as war, with good and bad guys on both sides and there was a lot of potential. Even if Hoshido isn't pre-Meiji Japan, they could have had other issues such as really hating and discriminating Nohrians and being so righteous up their ass with their light dragon that they are arrogant jerks. Sadly, the FE series seems to have moved away from that as a whole, for whatever reasons (probably cartering to as large demographic as possible).

[Phantom037]

Saying they failed at muddying the war is assuming they attempted to. Aside from showing you the Nohrian siblings who Kamui's grown attached to, I don't think their goal was to humanize the Nohrian army. Even the goal of the Nohr route is to fix Nohr, not fight Hoshido. I think making the countries as black and white morality as they are serves the theme of the games better than dirtying Hoshido would have.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Phantom037

[ATNAK]

I brought this up in the complete narrative topic. If Fates ever tried to muddy the waters of the war between the two kingdoms, then it didn't really do a good job.

To give contrast, in the Judgral games it was noted that Manster had tariffs on crops sent to Thracia. It was also noted that Manster nobles were abusing the tariff system. It was also noted that Quan was a pain to his allies, ordered border raids, and ultimately continued the bloodshed.

Hoshido VS Nohr? Fates didn't really do a good job (if at all) presenting Hoshido with the issues pre-Meiji Japan had that could have served to muddy the waters. One possible example of this is having Hoshidan oppression of a minority like the Christians. Another one is having Hoshido be expansionist and its troops maiming civilians like the Japanese in Korea.

Instead, you have Mikoto coming out of the story shining bright (or at least brighter than Garon). Aqua sings the praises of Hoshido to the point she and Corrin talk like fighting that kingdom in particular is this great sin. Meanwhile Nohrian troops do what are apparently war crimes and Iago, Ganz, with Fake Garon for last are puppy kickers while the actual Garon is underexplored. Counting playable units Nohr has more characters who, if not evil, are still shown as questionable at best (like Zero or Charlotte).

Good Lord, I thought I was the only one who considered this black/white morality business an issue! Thank you so much for posting this.

This game's story problems are so bad, it made Awakening look good in comparison. Seriously, Awakening story is also problematic, but ultimately salvageable compared to what we got with Fates. I always considered Fire Emblem to be a tactical RPG with war stories which every games except Fates managed to deliver to varying degrees.

You're right, in this game the world was not even built on cardboards, there were barely any substances to anything at all. At most Nohr is considered a gray area while Hoshido is perfect and totally an innocent victim, the writing show such obvious bias to the point of fetish. It's not even a Japan vs Europe thing, since real Japan and its history is hardly shining and perfect. Hoshido does not even qualify as a fantasy of feudal Japan... There is nothing peacefully loving about infighting among various warlords.

Basically, Hoshido is supposed to be bountiful in natural resources with 'nothing but good natured' people. A sterilized mockery of peace loving nation whose goodness stemmed from word of God and lack of sins rather than the presence of its virtues. And definitely not Japan expy. Hoshido the nation is so far apart from realism its unrelatable to me.

PS. Japanese culture is fascinating to me. It's unique brand of life is something I really like and value, so while I don't think I qualify as a Japanophile...the notion that Hoshido is comparable to Japan still feel insulting. Japan has its faults, but the virtues it does possess more than make up for it.

Saying they failed at muddying the war is assuming they attempted to. Aside from showing you the Nohrian siblings who Kamui's grown attached to, I don't think their heygoal was to humanize the Nohrian army. Even the goal of the Nohr route is to fix Nohr, not fight Hoshido. I think making the countries as black and white morality as they are serves the theme of the games better than dirtying Hoshido would have.

Personally I think making things black and white actually weaken the theme of choice. Plus, I feel that the Nohr army is human enough. Not to say that Hoshido should be dirty to make things even, but white vs grey is still uneven compared to different shades of grey. Really NOT going all Hoshido is picture perfect should be good enough.

[Haeresis]

Just remember its a japanese game and you shouldn't expect any kind of realism on it lol.

[Taka-kun]

Just remember its a japanese game and you shouldn't expect any kind of realism on it lol.

The Shin Megami Tensei series can be quite dark and downright disturbing due to failings of human nature. Even the Final Fantasy series show this to a degree, depending on the game and both are staple Japanese game series.

[Yari]

I actually like how they didn't muddy it too much. Because now I can fix it in my own little way. Awakening's story is difficult to make greyer and whatever by adding scenes changing a few dialogs and supports wich makes it hard to make it better unlike Fates. Hoshido is perfect to just add dialog, scenes and change some supports and dialog to make it grey (or greyer) so I'm looking foward to it. Nohr is more dificult. The story is a little poor so it may get more changes and more things added. Invisible kingdom will probably be the hardest because it's obviously the golden route of the three. My fanfic writter self is super looking forward to get this games to then twist them into something better. Awakening is a pain because the story is lacking but fits the game in a way but Fates' story should have been more dramatic? Serious? Grey and gray moraly driven? Well anyway my headcannons will put all three routes in the grey and bittersweet side of things. And highlight how bad war can be because I don't think that shows up a lot in game.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Yari

[Taka-kun]

I actually like how they didn't muddy it too much. Because now I can fix it in my own little way. Awakening's story is difficult to make greyer and whatever by adding scenes changing a few dialogs and supports wich makes it hard to make it better unlike Fates. Hoshido is perfect to just add dialog, scenes and change some supports and dialog to make it grey (or greyer) so I'm looking foward to it. Nohr is more dificult. The story is a little poor so it may get more changes and more things added. Invisible kingdom will probably be the hardest because it's obviously the golden route of the three. My fanfic writter self is super looking forward to get this games to then twist them into something better. Awakening is a pain because the story is lacking but fits the game in a way but Fates' story should have been more dramatic? Serious? Grey and gray moraly driven? Well anyway my headcannons will put all three routes in the grey and bittersweet side of things. And highlight how bad war can be because I don't think that shows up a lot in game.

Please, do notify us (or me) if you ever post your fanfic (and if you remember this humble request) :)

[RedMage]

^Second this. That fanfic sounds interesting to read.

I always thought that since Hoshido was so obviously based on ancient Japan, that IS had bias towards it and made it seem like such a perfect kingdom. FE is a Japanese game after all.

I can think of another game where the game developers were bias toward making their nation look way better than the other nation. But what made it worse was that they used the actual names of real-life countries.

[Iron Griffin]

I definitely agree that the games really lack a good gray zone when comparing the two kingdoms which is rather disappointing because I was hoping for a more morally ambiguous storyline which could explain the quality of Conquest.

[Nyanko]

I'm disappointed that Hoshido is portrayed as pure and innocent. I think a lot of us were hoping they would have some skeletons and that Nohr (and Garon) would be more than just the bad guys. I didn't expect it, but sure was hoping.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Sir Frederick

[Skywolfe]

I actually like how they didn't muddy it too much. Because now I can fix it in my own little way. Awakening's story is difficult to make greyer and whatever by adding scenes changing a few dialogs and supports wich makes it hard to make it better unlike Fates. Hoshido is perfect to just add dialog, scenes and change some supports and dialog to make it grey (or greyer) so I'm looking foward to it. Nohr is more dificult. The story is a little poor so it may get more changes and more things added. Invisible kingdom will probably be the hardest because it's obviously the golden route of the three. My fanfic writter self is super looking forward to get this games to then twist them into something better. Awakening is a pain because the story is lacking but fits the game in a way but Fates' story should have been more dramatic? Serious? Grey and gray moraly driven? Well anyway my headcannons will put all three routes in the grey and bittersweet side of things. And highlight how bad war can be because I don't think that shows up a lot in game.

Awakening had plenty of skeletons to uncover, the problem is that most of it got glossed over, and the details and in-game reactions are really sorely lacking. (Ylisse's bloody history for one, the Avatar being Grima, the future that the kids came from, the rebuilding after the war, etc...) However, I will agree that the way Awakening was set up in terms of plot can make it difficult to "grey out" and dig for it... However, I took that as a challenge. I like a good angst-fic, (I'm a sucker for happy endings though), but I explored what I could and dug up whatever skeletons I could manage for it, and probably buried a few of my own in the process... War crimes. War crimes everywhere. Still doing it, actually... It's too fun to stop. I am not a sadist.

I'm also looking forward to Fates in terms of the fanfiction material. There is an absurd amount of potential, even if the story post-localization does end up being poor. The potential for angst in particular is absolutely fantastic, and I am so, so, so excited for it. Kamui's experience in childhood shortly after their abduction is something I see a lot of fanfiction authors tackling, (a few already have on FFN, and it's great to see authors already jumping in), as well as taking the sibling-vs-sibling fighting to its absolute extremes when game simply can't afford to focus too much on it in terms of pacing or plot... And we'll leave aside the plethora of romance fics that will eventually wipe out the rest of the website, because that's really what's going to happen... I won't be helping on that front either, but I am promising on my part that there is going to be much angst involved because of who I wanna ship. I am probably a bit of a sadist.

All in all... bring it on. Canon is a guideline for an author, not gospel, which is what makes it fun when you see holes in a story and decide, "Well... Let me take a crack at it!" I've never been more stoked for a game than I am now.

[Yari]

Awakening had plenty of skeletons to uncover, the problem is that most of it got glossed over, and the details and in-game reactions are really sorely lacking. (Ylisse's bloody history for one, the Avatar being Grima, the future that the kids came from, the rebuilding after the war, etc...) However, I will agree that the way Awakening was set up in terms of plot can make it difficult to "grey out" and dig for it... However, I took that as a challenge. I like a good angst-fic, (I'm a sucker for happy endings though), but I explored what I could and dug up whatever skeletons I could manage for it, and probably buried a few of my own in the process... War crimes. War crimes everywhere. Still doing it, actually... It's too fun to stop. I am not a sadist.

I'm also looking forward to Fates in terms of the fanfiction material. There is an absurd amount of potential, even if the story post-localization does end up being poor. The potential for angst in particular is absolutely fantastic, and I am so, so, so excited for it. Kamui's experience in childhood shortly after their abduction is something I see a lot of fanfiction authors tackling, (a few already have on FFN, and it's great to see authors already jumping in), as well as taking the sibling-vs-sibling fighting to its absolute extremes when game simply can't afford to focus too much on it in terms of pacing or plot... And we'll leave aside the plethora of romance fics that will eventually wipe out the rest of the website, because that's really what's going to happen... I won't be helping on that front either, but I am promising on my part that there is going to be much angst involved because of who I wanna ship. I am probably a bit of a sadist.

All in all... bring it on. Canon is a guideline for an author, not gospel, which is what makes it fun when you see holes in a story and decide, "Well... Let me take a crack at it!" I've never been more stoked for a game than I am now.

The main reason I can't really write a Awakening fanfic right now it's because I can't get the war crimes and history stuff and headcannons there in a way that it flows smoothly with the rest of it's story. And also angst is hard for me to write in such a lighthearted story. Even if I'm a sadic that likes to make characters suffer before they get a happy ending. Sort of it might be a bittersweet one.

Fates has so much potential as fanfic material that it makes me sad how much romantic fanfic will get written. As a shipper pairings will exist but I wanna focus on the war is hell and the angst side of things. Especially when it comes to Kamui. I don't know how to incorporate all three paths in one fanfic (maybe two Kamuis who choose diferent paths but end up fighting together when the third path get in?) but I want a cynical female Kamui and a idealistic male Kamui. Both will go through hell and so will the rest of the characters (everyone shall have at least one trauma by the end) and the ending will be happy with some bittersweet undertone.

I accept the games cannon and twist it into my cannon. I'm so stoked for this game too even if I have to change the story a little in a fanfic.

[Taka-kun]

The main reason I can't really write a Awakening fanfic right now it's because I can't get the war crimes and history stuff and headcannons there in a way that it flows smoothly with the rest of it's story. And also angst is hard for me to write in such a lighthearted story. Even if I'm a sadic that likes to make characters suffer before they get a happy ending. Sort of it might be a bittersweet one.

Fates has so much potential as fanfic material that it makes me sad how much romantic fanfic will get written. As a shipper pairings will exist but I wanna focus on the war is hell and the angst side of things. Especially when it comes to Kamui. I don't know how to incorporate all three paths in one fanfic (maybe two Kamuis who choose diferent paths but end up fighting together when the third path get in?) but I want a cynical female Kamui and a idealistic male Kamui. Both will go through hell and so will the rest of the characters (everyone shall have at least one trauma by the end) and the ending will be happy with some bittersweet undertone.

I accept the games cannon and twist it into my cannon. I'm so stoked for this game too even if I have to change the story a little in a fanfic.

I am shedding a tear because people other than me on this site share my appreciation of "true art is angsty" *sniff*

That said, in all likelihood, Fates will be drowned in shipping fics, self-insert gratification and just eskewed potrayal of the setting, just like with Awakening. I have yet to find a fic where the events of Awakening is portrayed in a harsh light. 100 000 men killed at sea, their dying screams drowning out the sea waves: "Meh, let's just move on. No problem at all to navigate through the wreckages in the middle of the night, right?" -_-

[Nyanko]

I don't know if I'll ever write a fanfic for the game, but I've changed up the story significantly in my mind. It's neat to see other people actually doing that, too.

[Taka-kun]

I don't know if I'll ever write a fanfic for the game, but I've changed up the story significantly in my mind. It's neat to see other people actually doing that, too.

It's easier for people like, who have yet to experience the story and thus my headcanon is unblemished. Until I play the game that is...

[S.C. Amigo]

I think when the first trailer literally labeled them as "Peace-Loving" Hoshido and "Glory-Seeking" Nohr that it was pretty clear how it was going to be.

[Iron Griffin]

I intend to bring my own brand of darkness to Fates with one of my favorite series regardless if I play it or not.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Iron Griffin

[Nyanko]

It's easier for people like, who have yet to experience the story and thus my headcanon is unblemished. Until I play the game that is...

I don't know much of how Hoshido plays out, but I really don't like Nohr's story at all. My headcannon for Nohr is ironclad at this point unless the folks at Treehouse can work miracles fixing the story.

[Taka-kun]

I don't know much of how Hoshido plays out, but I really don't like Nohr's story at all. My headcannon for Nohr is ironclad at this point unless the folks at Treehouse can work miracles fixing the story.

I know mine will be ruined regardless. In my mind, Hoshido and Nohr is engaged in a Hundred-Year War style drama and I am helluva sure that even Treehouse folk can change it to something that dramatic. History is best story.

[S.C. Amigo]

One thing I have found very interesting is there are people here who lambast what is seen as too simplistic a tale of black and white morality, and yet there is so many here who put Genealogy on a pedestal, where especially the second part is even more simplistic. On one side, you have an empire who is kidnapping hundreds of children either to burn them alive to their dark god or brainwash them and oppress the common folk into near slavery and massacre anyone who resists and then there's the Liberation army who are all squeaky-clean and led by Celice, who is called everything short of the Messiah.

I dunno, I would say the only real FE game to get morally grey is perhaps Radiant Dawn, if that. And that's only because Micaiah is leading the guys who were the bad guys from last game.

Edited July 17, 2015 by S.C. Amigo

[Taka-kun]

One thing I have found very interesting is there are people here who lambast what is seen as too simplistic a tale of black and white morality, and yet there is so many here who put Genealogy on a pedestal, where especially the second part is even more simplistic. On one side, you have an empire who is kidnapping hundreds of children either to burn them alive to their dark god or brainwash them and oppress the common folk into near slavery and massacre anyone who resists and then there's the Liberation army who are all squeaky-clean and led by Celice, who is called everything short of the Messiah.

I dunno, I would say the only real FE game to get morally grey is perhaps Radiant Dawn, if that. And that's only because Micaiah is leading the guys who were the bad guys from last game.

Maybe people put the first half of FE4 on a pedestal? It was pretty epic after all, while the second part is traditional rebels vs empire.

[Yari]

I know mine will be ruined regardless. In my mind, Hoshido and Nohr is engaged in a Hundred-Year War style drama and I am helluva sure that even Treehouse folk can change it to something that dramatic. History is best story.

I might just steal that idea. Well not a hundred years just enough to have a 2 gen with no alternative universes or time travels.

[S.C. Amigo]

@Taka-kun The big twist of Sigurd's death was definetly a good one, I will gladly admit that, but one thing bothers me about it: Why everyone trusted one of the most obviously evil bad guys in Manfroy. Granted, Alvis was blackmailed, but come on, Chagall and King of Verdane.

[Taka-kun]

I might just steal that idea. Well not a hundred years just enough to have a 2 gen with no alternative universes or time travels.

Be my guest. If you want further inspiration, you are welcome to PM me and discuss. I have a few ideas in my mind, being a pseudo-fanfiction writer myself.