Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Time the Crestfallen]

That's a nice idea, thanks.

[Frelia]

I wonder if the legendary weapons should be tied to the story or if they should just be heirlooms of their respective kingdoms. I like the idea of Hoshido's weapons being tied to local gods and Nohr's weapons being associated with heroes of lore.

Here's some ideas for Nohr's legendary weapons.

Marx's legendary sword: Siegfried

Lore: Forged during the Age of Dark, this sword was wielded by the legendary knight Siegfried. Drawing power from the shadows, Siegfried used his sword to cut down the monsters born from Anankos' blood and established man's superiority over the land.

Camilla's legendary axe: Tiamat

Lore: Carved from the metallic scales of a great wyrm, this is one of the many weapons used by Dragonslayer Helga, a warrior so powerful that even dragons feared and hated her. Though the dragons are long dead, this weapon still carries their fiery temperament.

Leon's legondary tome: Brunhild

Lore: Formally belonging to the powerful witch, Brunhild, this tome contains powerful nature magic. Long ago, Brunhild kidnapped children for use in sinister rituals so she was hunted down by Nohrian knights. It is said that as a dying curse, Brunhild created the haunted forest with this tome.

Elise's legendary staff: Tranquility

Lore: Once carried by Saint Emyria, this staff contains the power to cure wounds and soothe the hearts of men. One day, two Nohrian princes fought for her hand in marriage and nearly split the country in two. Fearing the start of a war, Emyria ended her own life so the princes could see the folly of their ways. It's said that this staff carries the spirit of her compassion.

Thanks. I think the lore of the weapons can add flavor to the culture and history of each nation. A theme of Nohr is that they are constantly in conflicts, either with other humans or supernatural beings. I guess this information would be accessed through that library building in My Castle.

Some ideas for Hoshido:

Ryoma's divine weapon: Raijin Katana (Thunder God Katana)

Hinoka's divine weapon: Suijin Naginata (Water God Naginata)

Takumi's divine weapon: Fuujin Yumi (Wind God Yumi)

Lore: Long ago, in the Age of Dragons, Anankos, the dark dragon fought with the holy dragon Sylvanos. Although Anankos was defeated, Sylvanos too perished. From Sylvanos was born several new gods, each representing a different aspect of the holy dragon. The Wind God breathed new life into the land, allowing all creatures to flourish. The Water God washed away the corruption in the land, leaving behind only the righteous. The Lightning God sent divine bolts down to the earth to smite those who would threaten the new land of Hoshido. It's believed that these weapons draw power from their respective deities.

Sakura's divine baton: The Yato Mirror

Lore: A sacred relic gifted to the Hoshido clan by the holy dragon, Sylvanos. Crafted from one of the scales of the dragon, this baton can ward away harmful magics from any who receive its blessing. Only the pure of heart and sound of mind can wield it.

That is great weapon lore and I completely approve. Does the game have any weapon lore or do we have to make it ourselves?

Edited September 13, 2015 by Frelia

[Shengar]

Deep down, the only way conflicts of that size could be ever solved, is by to a lot of convenients crap, as a lot of anime do. Bleh. :/

Like seriously, the dude knew this kid and other dudes would be precisely here years later at that particuliar place to get this shiny thins, and would do a particuliary stupid thing instead of being smart, then walking plot device talk, and after Naruto-gaiden-like shenenigan, everybody join at one point just because the plot say so,aka no reasons because nothing smart happens, then yadayada. this is just ridiculous.

The fault in FE's story is down to how it was written, and such fault is commonly found in other JRPGs as well. The most common way to write the story is centered around the plot. This makes characters who involved within the story to suit in with what the plot dictates even when it's at direct contradiction with their traits. This is why we see so many dumb involving supposedly an intelligent character. I only skimmed, but many of the problem discussed is how dumb the character was with their action in order to follow the flow. With game like FE who involved a lot characters, building the story on the interaction between them should be the preferable method. It'll make them more fleshed out, and their actions will be more appropriate to their character. Honestly, it still baffles me how they stick to plot based story when the premise would involved a lot of internal and personal conflicts of the (main) character.

[B.Leu]

Camilla's legendary axe: Tiamat

Lore: Carved from the metallic scales of a great wyrm, this is one of the many weapons used by Dragonslayer Helga, a warrior so powerful that even dragons feared and hated her. Though the dragons are long dead, this weapon still carries their fiery temperament.

Would the localized name be TItania ? :p

I wonder what the powers will be.

Eh, cool to see I'm not the only who imagined Camilla with Bolverk.

Sakura could get the Fujin Bow, no ? Could be fun gameplay/story wise.

Ryouma: Why is our imouto killing shitton of things ?

Kamui: Because plot.

The fault in FE's story is down to how it was written, and such fault is commonly found in other JRPGs as well. The most common way to write the story is centered around the plot. This makes characters who involved within the story to suit in with what the plot dictates even when it's at direct contradiction with their traits. This is why we see so many dumb involving supposedly an intelligent character. I only skimmed, but many of the problem discussed is how dumb the character was with their action in order to follow the flow. With game like FE who involved a lot characters, building the story on the interaction between them should be the preferable method. It'll make them more fleshed out, and their actions will be more appropriate to their character. Honestly, it still baffles me how they stick to plot based story when the premise would involved a lot of internal and personal conflicts of the (main) character.

Couldn't agree more. So much truth in this post that I could cry from happiness.

No joke, well except for the crying part;

Edited September 13, 2015 by B.Leu

[Taka-kun]

The fault in FE's story is down to how it was written, and such fault is commonly found in other JRPGs as well. The most common way to write the story is centered around the plot. This makes characters who involved within the story to suit in with what the plot dictates even when it's at direct contradiction with their traits. This is why we see so many dumb involving supposedly an intelligent character. I only skimmed, but many of the problem discussed is how dumb the character was with their action in order to follow the flow. With game like FE who involved a lot characters, building the story on the interaction between them should be the preferable method. It'll make them more fleshed out, and their actions will be more appropriate to their character. Honestly, it still baffles me how they stick to plot based story when the premise would involved a lot of internal and personal conflicts of the (main) character.

Ah, the good old times. When people read books.

[Dark Sage]

You know, I think one thing that could help balance out Hoshido's and Nohr's portrayal are replacing the children with sympathetic misfits from Hoshido. So on the Nohr route, you can get a deformed but good-natured Oni forced to live on the fringes due to his appearance; an Eyrios like character that's used as cannon fodder for a corrupt and cowardly daimyo and can't advance far because he's a commoner; a ninja despised and mistreated for having a Hoshido mother and Nohr father.

On the flipside, you can have Nohr characters join Hoshido for reasons that highlight a lot of Nohr's issues, like mercenaries fighting for wealthy Hoshido daimyos and enduring unjust treatment to feed their families (so similar to the situations of the Ilianz and Oujay) or a former lover of one of the Nohrian royals who leaves due to Garon's increasing paranoia and brutality. Hell, you can even make Charlotte recruitable on the Hoshido side but give her a Hugh style recruitment where it costs a bunch of money.

I dunno, does anyone think that's a good idea or is it just me?

[Damosel]

You know, I think one thing that could help balance out Hoshido's and Nohr's portrayal are replacing the children with sympathetic misfits from Hoshido. So on the Nohr route, you can get a deformed but good-natured Oni forced to live on the fringes due to his appearance; an Eyrios like character that's used as cannon fodder for a corrupt and cowardly daimyo and can't advance far because he's a commoner; a ninja despised and mistreated for having a Hoshido mother and Nohr father.

On the flipside, you can have Nohr characters join Hoshido for reasons that highlight a lot of Nohr's issues, like mercenaries fighting for wealthy Hoshido daimyos and enduring unjust treatment to feed their families (so similar to the situations of the Ilianz and Oujay) or a former lover of one of the Nohrian royals who leaves due to Garon's increasing paranoia and brutality. Hell, you can even make Charlotte recruitable on the Hoshido side but give her a Hugh style recruitment where it costs a bunch of money.

I dunno, does anyone think that's a good idea or is it just me?

Having some mixed backstory troops (with motivation beyond "omg Kamui") in each kingdom would've been great. Especially with this older style of recruitment where you can really show the sides are hardly clearcut. If they'd had some like this it would've given a lot more Hoshido/Nohr interaction and worldbuilding flavor. I also miss the pay-to-recruit characters, they were charmingly infruiating!

Then again I'm still salty that Fates has an army of deadbeats who toss their newborns into hyperbolic time-chambers, and how said fast-forward kids really have zero plot relevance at all.

[Alazen]

I'll take the liberty of bringing up Der Langrisser against Fates.

First off, the one character most like Hydra is Bozer, the Prince of Darkness. He's shown working with the Rayguard Empire and ultimately is trying to engulf the world in chaos. However, it's revealed that rather than being the mastermind behind all the conflict he was actually awakened thanks to the Kaiser of Rayguard's quest for Alhazard. It's also revealed that just as Bozer was using the empire, Kaiser Bernhart and his adviser Eggbert were using the Army of Darkness for their scheming and can successfully get the better of them with Erwin as an imperial commander. Like Hydra, Bozer serves as an otherworldly power behind the scenes of the warring between mortals but a mortal faction can get the better of his and he doesn't overshadow the efforts of mortals.

Secondly, the game has the choice of 3 factions to join (Army of Light, Rayguard Empire, Army of Darkness) along with Erwin making a run for world conqueror himself. The Army of Light and Rayguard are both ultimately opposed to the Army of Darkness, but are too contrary in their ways with too much bloodshed to join forces. There is no Golden Ending. No matter which route you take, the opposing faction leaders are either wiped out or mostly wiped out.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Alazen

[Time the Crestfallen]

You know, I think one thing that could help balance out Hoshido's and Nohr's portrayal are replacing the children with sympathetic misfits from Hoshido. So on the Nohr route, you can get a deformed but good-natured Oni forced to live on the fringes due to his appearance; an Eyrios like character that's used as cannon fodder for a corrupt and cowardly daimyo and can't advance far because he's a commoner; a ninja despised and mistreated for having a Hoshido mother and Nohr father.

On the flipside, you can have Nohr characters join Hoshido for reasons that highlight a lot of Nohr's issues, like mercenaries fighting for wealthy Hoshido daimyos and enduring unjust treatment to feed their families (so similar to the situations of the Ilianz and Oujay) or a former lover of one of the Nohrian royals who leaves due to Garon's increasing paranoia and brutality. Hell, you can even make Charlotte recruitable on the Hoshido side but give her a Hugh style recruitment where it costs a bunch of money.

I dunno, does anyone think that's a good idea or is it just me?

That's a pretty cool idea. There's a whole lot you can do with exploring defection between the countries and the sort of discrimination they'd face.

Anyway, I'd like to make a list of the things I'll be rewriting, so would it be okay if you guys tell me what your biggest complaints with the story/setting are? Just don't list the favourable story portrayal of Hoshido, cause I'm already working on that one.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

That's a pretty cool idea. There's a whole lot you can do with exploring defection between the countries and the sort of discrimination they'd face.

Anyway, I'd like to make a list of the things I'll be rewriting, so would it be okay if you guys tell me what your biggest complaints with the story/setting are? Just don't list the favourable story portrayal of Hoshido, cause I'm already working on that one.

Problems from the game that should be addressed:

• Too Kamui-centric
• Kamui doesn't make mistakes or if he does, he's excused for them
• Villains lack depth and credible motivations
• Shallow world building
• Impact of war is not felt
• Plot is meandering
• Sisters are not well incorporated into the plot
• Plot contrivances like the crystal ball, magic throne and IK curse

[Ryo]

Also Aqua. Especially Aqua.

[JupiterKnight]

Not having scenes showing real Garon's fatherly side.

IK Curse being too strong. Yeah I can see it working on mortals and the like, but it should not be able to turn his heart into bubbles when he's in another world.

More details on the Dragon Wars.

Iago and Ganz being moustache twirlers

How they use the Hoshido Throne. It's mentioned early in the story, but the way they use it is the problem.

Sisters not getting to do as much/not having their own legendary weapons.

Kamui not learning that Hydra is their dad

The whole trying to make Kamui suffer for the first half of Nohr's route.

A better job of including Owain, Inigo, and Severa. Like I don't mind they are in the game and I do like we got info on Hydra, but seriously they could have done a better job of adding them.

An explanation for why spirits tried to assassinate Chrom, Lissa, and Frederick before they met Robin. Typically the DLC is canon as the Awakening ones are brought up in some Fate supports.
Kamui not being able to make kids with their same-sex lover despite being able to make Kamuis out of the earth through the Bond Units. Not to mention dear old daddy having the ability to give parts of his own self human form.

I know you've already did stuff with some of these Phillius, but you did mention to bring them up.

Also leaving Aqua's character to the supports.

Edited September 14, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Alazen]

• It's embarrassingly obvious that the 2nd Gen units were shoehorned into Fates thanks to Awakening having child characters. They manage to be even less relevant than Awakening's, with Fates resorting to dumping the children in another dimension for there to be an excuse to have them all be of fighting age without using a time skip or time travel.

Hydra being Kamui's birth father in what is transparently an excuse to let Kamui marry from both sets of siblings.

Carrying on Awakening's approach to supports. Having so many options for so many characters rules out having any pairings like Quan with Ethlyn or Pent with Louise. Among all other problems.

The Black (or at best Dark Grey) and White approach to conflict that haunts the narrative. Hoshido is a sunny green land with no significant and properly explored societal issues such as institutional bigotry (and no, having a character be bigoted towards Nohrians due to her parents dying does not count) while Nohr is a Mordorlike with its troops going around committing war crimes and its leadership consisting of either cartoon villains or lackeys. From the reform standpoint Garon is a mustache twirler who takes time out of his busy schedule of eating babies to try to make Kamui cry, with the one leader who does side with Kamui being lackey Marx. Hydra is trying to destroy all with his background largely restricted to DLC (and it doesn't make him any better executed).

Edited September 14, 2015 by Alazen

[NekoKnight]

I want to finish up Nohr before I think about going onto Hoshido but I'm already coming up with ideas for the character of their people. Nohr is ruthless and expansionist (by necessity) but I want to make Hoshido extremely prejudiced and dismissive of Nohr's problems. I think there will be many Hoshidans, including Ryoma at first, who believe that Hoshido's bountiful land and Nohr's desolate country are proof of the gods' wishes for whom they want to succeed. Thus, the Hoshidans think it's appropriate that Nohrians suffer while Hoshidans thrive. It's kind of a religious motivated version of Social Darwinism "We're successful because we deserve to be". Ryoma's character arc (which is helped along by Kamui) is coming to terms with the fact that people can't help where they are born and that ignoring Nohr's desperation only created endless conflicts between their countries.

[Alazen]

I'm not sure it's enough to make Ryoma and other Hoshidans look down on Nohr if Nohrian troops are still going around invading places and committing war crimes. Unless you're toning down how brutal Nohr's military is.

[NekoKnight]

That's the "lore" behind the bigotry and something discussed and understood better if Kamui sides with Hoshido. The way it would manifest (besides hateful slurs) would be indiscriminate attacks on Nohrians, soldiers or otherwise, including any Hoshidans who collaborate with them. I'm imagining a situation like when the imperial Japanese army had compulsory mass suicides in Okinawa. Nohrian civilians would be attacked for being foreigners and Hoshidan civilians will be attacked for "assisting the occupation" by not dying when they were supposed to.

Hm... considering I'm going to have Garon's forces respond to such attacks with brutal retribution, maybe I've set a fight between the Nazis and Imperial Japanese army... Let them fight.

[Alazen]

Have you thought of anything for a 3rd Path, if there is one?

Edited September 16, 2015 by Alazen

[B.Leu]

Have you thought of anything for a 3rd Path, if there is one?

Murder everything for being self-righteous obnoxous little shoot. Or just for the evulz. Either is fun.

With some joining you because yeah, the status-quo suck balls. And the rest dying, because people die when they are killed.

I won't give up on this. Ever. ><

Edited September 16, 2015 by B.Leu

[Alazen]

Alright, have any of you rewriters planned out how Kamui's siblings, Garon, and Mikoto will die?

Edited September 16, 2015 by Alazen

[Taka-kun]

Alright, have any of you rewriters planned out how Kamui's siblings, Garon, and Mikoto will be die?

Why not Kamui himself/herself?

[Alazen]

He can follow them. When he is craving death.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Alazen

[Damosel]

In my Alternate Universe almost everyone lives to die natural deaths...except those who never exisited in-verse to begin with I guess (Touma cast). But I'm not following any of the three paths. Although Ikona is killed, not that the game archives care about the mentioned-once character.

[Water Mage]

Honestly, I don't think Kamui should really be removed from the story.

Really, while Kamui does makes mistakes, I think the real problem in the story is not Kamui the character, but rather the problem is how Fate's world treat Kamui.

Maybe instead of completely removing Kamui, I think it would be far more interesting to change how the characters treat and see Kamui, and even add some negative personality traits to him. And having more characters dislike him might help Kamui such as having some Hoshidans be hostile to him due to him being raised in Nohr and to being partially responsible for Mikoto's death or having some characters look down on him for being sheltered.

Because, the concept of a character that has to chose two sides is really interesting, and it would sad to see it wasted.

[Alazen]

How about making Kamui be unconcerned about his Hoshido siblings if he goes through a route hostile to them? Like when Hinoka dies, her death means nothing to him.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Alazen

[Thane]

Alright, have any of you rewriters planned out how Kamui's siblings, Garon, and Mikoto will die?

I think the important part is giving those characters personality, not planning their deaths. Garon doesn't have a tablespoon's worth of personality even though he's got a big role in everything that's happening.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Garon's role in the third path pretty much sums up his entire character, and to an extent Fates as a whole.