Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Time the Crestfallen]

Okay, I made some slight changes to Nohr and Chevalier, nothing worth reposting over. Anyway, I finished Hoshido and I can't be bothered waiting to finish the rest of the Eastern Countries, so hear's Hoshido's world-building. Again, if you guys could let me know what's good, what's bad and what has potential but could be improved, I'd appreciate it. Also, if you think I've left something out that you want explained, let me know.

[spoiler=Hoshido]

-Careers in Hoshido are passed down through family lines, with it being considered incredibly unconventional to want a different job or possible even shameful depending on the importance of your career. For example, all restaurants and commercial businesses are family owned and have been passed down for generations. When the retainers of the Hoshidan Royals say their families have been in service to them for generations, they’re not exaggerating.

-While noble families cannot lose their status like they can in Nohr, the punishments for failure can be very hefty, including punishments such as loss of land holdings, privileges and favour with the Royal Family. Similarly, any child that is adopted by a family is considered part of that family by blood. This isn’t the case with Kamui in my rewrite, but it IS the case for Oboro.

-The various noble families are constantly scheming against each other for more power and favour with the Royals. Political adoptions of non-noble children are common for PR reasons and, while they can go to the lengths that Nohrian royals do (assassination and other such things), they are much better at hiding it.

-Hoshido places a greater cultural emphasis on religious/spiritual ideas than Nohr. This is because they'd actually have a reason to worship their dragon (for giving them great land, whereas I imagine Nohrian peasants would be more 'Dark Dragon? Pfft, what's it ever done for us?"). Pilgrimages to various holy sites, including the sacred mountains mentioned in some of Asama’s supports and various shrines scattered around the country for each major deity (11 Animal Gods, Kōryū, the Four Weather God).

-Because of the importance of religion in Hoshido culture, members of the church are very respected and powerful members of society. A priest/priestess and a samurai rule most small townships jointly, with Archpriests having the same amount of power as Daimyo and the High Council (consisting of the High Priests of the previously mentioned major gods) being capable of overruling the Royal Family themselves if they can muster a 3:1 majority vote. Unfortunately, the priests/priestesses can be just as corrupt as the nobles, with the Rat and Rabbit God’s High Priest planning on selling out their countries to Nohr.

-In addition to this, what religion is complete without a group of fundamentalists who make the rest of its members look bad by comparison? While laws that have been written down in religious teachings are phased out in favour of more modern ones when they become irrelevant or stagnating to modern society, doing so is like pulling teeth and there are factions within Hoshidan society who think that the religious laws that have been abolished should be reinstated. This fundamentalism extends to interpretations of religious lore/mythology, with a character named Jinpachi (again, Tekken fans know where this is going) being completely ostracised from society because he has unconventional views on the nature of good and evil spirits.

-Because of the Light Dragon's blessings, plant life in Hoshidan soil grows a lot faster and requires less water than they would anywhere else, enabling them to perform multiple crop harvests per growing season without expending too much water and makes food their primary trading export and still have an abundance left over to justify Ryoma saying they could’ve sent some to Nohr.

-Despite the fact that they can be just as bad, if not worse than other countries, many of them have a thinly-veiled sense of superiority, believing their country and culture to be the best in the world. While most commoners with this attitude are still more or less good people who occasionally come across as insensitive and seem to believe in stereotypes (everyone from Muse is a dancer, everyone from Makaras is a criminal ETC), the Nobles and Archpriests can be particularly obnoxious, as they openly talk down to foreigners and constantly bring up their faults (regardless of how inaccurate or out-of-context they might be) while ignoring their own flaws.

-To make matters worse, some very poorly-worded teachings left behind by the Light Dragons have left the interpretation that it is Hoshido’s duty to ‘guide’ and ‘educate’ the ‘lesser cultures’. This attitude however is completely lost when it comes to Nohr however, as despite the fact that redeeming Nohr is one of the key features of their religion, many people think it would just be easier to kill them all (ironically, the fundamentalists are actually more in favour of saving Nohr than most people due to their die-hard devotion to their religion). Also, having lived in prosperity for so long, Hoshido has stupidly low rates of poverty and have no idea what it means to struggle and look down on people who commit crimes to survive because needing to do illegal things to make a living is a foreign idea.

-There are also restrictions on what is permissible for marriage, as it is considered taboo to firstly to marry above/below one’s social status and to marry one’s direct superior (as an extension of the first). Using Takumi and Oboro as an example, Oboro was adopted by a lesser noble family and one that directly serves the royal family. If Oboro wasn’t his retainer, their marriage would raise a few eyebrows because Oboro’s family isn’t particularly renowned or powerful, but nothing that would warrant major complaints. But, because she’s one of his retainers, their marriage would be forbidden (I’m still shipping them though).

-After the original wielders of the Hoshidan Holy Weapons united the lands and passed on, they started petitioning to become independent nations around the reign of the Fourth King, who…took exception to that idea. When they insisted that they be given independence (through resistance groups), he insisted right back (by killing said resistance groups publically to make an example of them). It was only after the Fourth King’s assassination at the hands of a Fuuma assassin (about 300 years after the first resistance massacre). The Fifth King was very apologetic and gave the nations independent. Relations between them were very hostile for a long time afterward, but they’re on mostly good terms by the time the story takes place (except for Fuuma, who are selling them out to Nohr because of the abuse). It’s…not something that anyone likes to talk about.

-The Sixth Ruler of Hoshido was trying to live up to his father’s idea of being peaceful and doing nothing but good deeds, but was forced to acknowledge that certain unsavoury deeds needed to be done in order to keep his country safe. To this end, he and the current members of the High Council decreed that the Shinobi Organisation would function (mostly) independently from the rest of the Hoshidan Military. By that, I mean the leader can authorise any mission he feels is necessary, but he can still be held accountable for any actions that the Council/King/Queen fells crossed a line. Of course, most of them get around this by not reporting their actions (a loophole in their independency allows them to get away with this with no consequence). I’m going to say that they do a lot of…unpleasant things and leave it at that.

-Anyway, as mentioned in the Nohr section, Hoshido controls almost all of the fortresses lining the Infinite Chasm and, due to their more mobile military forces, are much better equipped to fight alone the bridges than the clunky and heavily-armed Nohrian forces. Also, Hoshido has a superior Naval force since the abundance of wood means that they’ve built more ships over the years than Nohr and the loss of a ship is far more significant for Nohr because wood is one of the rarer supplies for them.

-Anyway, while civilians can own weapons, they’re mostly restricted to bows and lances. Additionally, only the Samurai Caste receive any significant training with said weapons and theirs are of much better quality (Samurai weapons are composed of imported metals while the rank-and-file soldiers/civilians have to make due with weapons made of Pig Iron (I remember reading that Japanese Iron is infamously shitty, but I might be wrong).

-Additionally, they’re universally much faster, but less durable. Also, Nohrian forces are more balanced while the Hoshidan ones are at either ends of the extreme (i.e. the best Hoshidan troops are better than the best Nohrian troops, but the Nohrian rank-and-file is better than the Hoshidan rank-and-file). This extends to the respective royal families, as the Hoshidan ones are the more ‘skilled’ fighters, but the Nohrian Royal Family even it out by fighting pragmatically (Xander has a mount + ranks in lances, Camilla has access to Axes and Wind Magic as well as a more powerful mount, Leo is mounted and tomes/swords beat bows while Elise has a mount as well as weapon triangle advantage, assuming she and Sakura promote to Strategist and War Priestess respectively).

-Lastly, immigrants who move to Hoshido are treated as second-class citizens; they cannot legally own weapons, they cannot ‘own’ property and must live in apartment buildings owned by a Hoshidan, they cannot take willingly take military jobs unless conscripted, so on and so forth.

-Culture wise, well, basically just copy-paste Japanese Culture and that’s it really, maybe with some minor adjustments.

Main Military Units: Lancer, Bowman, Samurai, Priest/Priestess

Edited September 22, 2015 by Phillius

[Taka-kun]

Maybe, but Valm in Awakening had a similar conquest-and-glory attitude and, while I don't remember the exact number, I'm pretty sure they had somewhere around one million troops.

Anyway, the reasoning behind Nohr having a large army is because of the 'glory-seeking attitude' they're supposed to have; people want to climb the social heirarchy, earning renown in the military is the easiest way to do this, so eveyone and their grandmother's dog enlists

Again, excuse my poor examples, but WW1 Australia had a population of 4.9 million, but the number of people who enlisted was 420,000 (38.7% of the male population between 18-44 and around 8% of the total population). Now imagine if instead of 38.7 percent, it was around 50ish%, women were allowed to enlist as well and people who weren't soldiers constantly had propaganda shoved down their throats.

With this in mind, I propose a compromise; how about they're as numerous as I state they are, but they're not all active at the same time. Only the elite, best trained soldiers are always on duty while most of the normal troops are swapped out at regular intervals and have civilian jobs when they're not on duty. Going back to the Valm example, say that Nohr has a grand total of one million troops, but only 200,000-400,000 are active at any given point so that when a group of soldiers are tired and sick of fighting, they can be sent back home and replaced with fresh soldiers. By doing this, their army is always ready to fight while the opponent if tired out by fighting a seemingly never-ending supply of enemy soldiers.

That sounds much better, it aligns better to my own perception (which you really didn't have take into account to but I appreciate it). It's not uncommon for major powers in a conflict to exaggerate their numbers and let their reputation cow the enemies in believing the lies. If we go back to the Valm example, it was Say'ri who stated the numbers but it felt greatly exaggerated just to bolster the Ylisseans' recent victory, an issue of morale. Awakening entirely omitted the logistical behind the numbers of the armies, such as saying that Ylisse sent 100 000 men north to hinder Walhart first time (which got squatted aside) and an unmentioned number south to Yen'fay, yet had MORE soldiers to send against Walhart again. One wonders how the League managed to transport all these troops on 500 ships (500 were burned), even if they were all transport ships (cause f*ck naval control right, just burn all the warships. Great strategy) and then to feed all these soldiers as well (probably going to have to strip the lands bare and upset the local population, but nemas problemas).

200 000 for a whole national army (divided in regions) I feel is a good number though and reasonable enough, since you do portray Nohr as a warfare empire. Based on what I can draw from my mind, the Mongol army was around that number and they basically conquered the known world (partly because they had great logistics and communications as well though).

Okay, I made some slight changes to Nohr and Chevalier, nothing worth reposting over. Anyway, I finished Hoshido and I can't be bothered waiting to finish the rest of the Eastern Countries, so hear's Hoshido's world-building. Again, if you guys could let me know what's good, what's bad and what has potential but could be improved, I'd appreciate it. Also, if you think I've left something out that you want explained, let me know.

[spoiler=Hoshido]

-Careers in Hoshido are passed down through family lines, with it being considered incredibly unconventional to want a different job or possible even shameful depending on the importance of your career. For example, all restaurants and commercial businesses are family owned and have been passed down for generations. When the retainers of the Hoshidan Royals say their families have been in service to them for generations, they’re not exaggerating.

-While noble families cannot lose their status like they can in Nohr, the punishments for failure can be very hefty, including punishments such as loss of land holdings, privileges and favour with the Royal Family. Similarly, any child that is adopted by a family is considered part of that family by blood. This isn’t the case with Kamui in my rewrite, but it IS the case for Oboro.

-The various noble families are constantly scheming against each other for more power and favour with the Royals. Political adoptions of non-noble children are common for PR reasons and, while they can go to the lengths that Nohrian royals do (assassination and other such things), they are much better at hiding it.

-Hoshido places a greater cultural emphasis on religious/spiritual ideas than Nohr. This is because they'd actually have a reason to worship their dragon (for giving them great land, whereas I imagine Nohrian peasants would be more 'Dark Dragon? Pfft, what's it ever done for us?"). Pilgrimages to various holy sites, including the sacred mountains mentioned in some of Asama’s supports and various shrines scattered around the country for each major deity (11 Animal Gods, Kōryū, the Four Weather God).

-Because of the importance of religion in Hoshido culture, members of the church are very respected and powerful members of society. A priest/priestess and a samurai rule most small townships jointly, with Archpriests having the same amount of power as Daimyo and the High Council (consisting of the High Priests of the previously mentioned major gods) being capable of overruling the Royal Family themselves if they can muster a 3:1 majority vote. Unfortunately, the priests/priestesses can be just as corrupt as the nobles, with the Rat and Rabbit God’s High Priest planning on selling out their countries to Nohr.

-In addition to this, what religion is complete without a group of fundamentalists who make the rest of its members look bad by comparison? While laws that have been written down in religious teachings are phased out in favour of more modern ones when they become irrelevant or stagnating to modern society, doing so is like pulling teeth and there are factions within Hoshidan society who think that the religious laws that have been abolished should be reinstated. This fundamentalism extends to interpretations of religious lore/mythology, with a character named Jinpachi (again, Tekken fans know where this is going) being completely ostracised from society because he has unconventional views on the nature of good and evil spirits.

-Because of the Light Dragon's blessings, plant life in Hoshidan soil grows a lot faster and requires less water than they would anywhere else, enabling them to perform multiple crop harvests per growing season without expending too much water and makes food their primary trading export and still have an abundance left over to justify Ryoma saying they could’ve sent some to Nohr.

-Despite the fact that they can be just as bad, if not worse than other countries, many of them have a thinly-veiled sense of superiority, believing their country and culture to be the best in the world. While most commoners with this attitude are still more or less good people who occasionally come across as insensitive and seem to believe in stereotypes (everyone from Muse is a dancer, everyone from Makaras is a criminal ETC), the Nobles and Archpriests can be particularly obnoxious, as they openly talk down to foreigners and constantly bring up their faults (regardless of how inaccurate or out-of-context they might be) while ignoring their own flaws.

-To make matters worse, some very poorly-worded teachings left behind by the Light Dragons have left the interpretation that it is Hoshido’s duty to ‘guide’ and ‘educate’ the ‘lesser cultures’. This attitude however is completely lost when it comes to Nohr however, as despite the fact that redeeming Nohr is one of the key features of their religion, many people think it would just be easier to kill them all (ironically, the fundamentalists are actually more in favour of saving Nohr than most people due to their die-hard devotion to their religion). Also, having lived in prosperity for so long, Hoshido has stupidly low rates of poverty and have no idea what it means to struggle and look down on people who commit crimes to survive because needing to do illegal things to make a living is a foreign idea.

-There are also restrictions on what is permissible for marriage, as it is considered taboo to firstly to marry above/below one’s social status and to marry one’s direct superior (as an extension of the first). Using Takumi and Oboro as an example, Oboro was adopted by a lesser noble family and one that directly serves the royal family. If Oboro wasn’t his retainer, their marriage would raise a few eyebrows because Oboro’s family isn’t particularly renowned or powerful, but nothing that would warrant major complaints. But, because she’s one of his retainers, their marriage would be forbidden (I’m still shipping them though).

-After the original wielders of the Hoshidan Holy Weapons united the lands and passed on, they started petitioning to become independent nations around the reign of the Fourth King, who…took exception to that idea. When they insisted that they be given independence (through resistance groups), he insisted right back (by killing said resistance groups publically to make an example of them). It was only after the Fourth King’s assassination at the hands of a Fuuma assassin (about 300 years after the first resistance massacre). The Fifth King was very apologetic and gave the nations independent. Relations between them were very hostile for a long time afterward, but they’re on mostly good terms by the time the story takes place (except for Fuuma, who are selling them out to Nohr because of the abuse). It’s…not something that anyone likes to talk about.

-The Sixth Ruler of Hoshido was trying to live up to his father’s idea of being peaceful and doing nothing but good deeds, but was forced to acknowledge that certain unsavoury deeds needed to be done in order to keep his country safe. To this end, he and the current members of the High Council decreed that the Shinobi Organisation would function (mostly) independently from the rest of the Hoshidan Military. By that, I mean the leader can authorise any mission he feels is necessary, but he can still be held accountable for any actions that the Council/King/Queen fells crossed a line. Of course, most of them get around this by not reporting their actions (a loophole in their independency allows them to get away with this with no consequence). I’m going to say that they do a lot of…unpleasant things and leave it at that.

-Anyway, as mentioned in the Nohr section, Hoshido controls almost all of the fortresses lining the Infinite Chasm and, due to their more mobile military forces, are much better equipped to fight alone the bridges than the clunky and heavily-armed Nohrian forces. Also, Hoshido has a superior Naval force since the abundance of wood means that they’ve built more ships over the years than Nohr and the loss of a ship is far more significant for Nohr because wood is one of the rarer supplies for them.

-Anyway, while civilians can own weapons, they’re mostly restricted to bows and lances. Additionally, only the Samurai Caste receive any significant training with said weapons and theirs are of much better quality (Samurai weapons are composed of imported metals while the rank-and-file soldiers/civilians have to make due with weapons made of Pig Iron (I remember reading that Japanese Iron is infamously shitty, but I might be wrong).

-Additionally, they’re universally much faster, but less durable. Also, Nohrian forces are more balanced while the Hoshidan ones are at either ends of the extreme (i.e. the best Hoshidan troops are better than the best Nohrian troops, but the Nohrian rank-and-file is better than the Hoshidan rank-and-file). This extends to the respective royal families, as the Hoshidan ones are the more ‘skilled’ fighters, but the Nohrian Royal Family even it out by fighting pragmatically (Xander has a mount + ranks in lances, Camilla has access to Axes and Wind Magic as well as a more powerful mount, Leo is mounted and tomes/swords beat bows while Elise has a mount as well as weapon triangle advantage, assuming she and Sakura promote to Strategist and War Priestess respectively).

-Lastly, immigrants who move to Hoshido are treated as second-class citizens; they cannot legally own weapons, they cannot ‘own’ property and must live in apartment buildings owned by a Hoshidan, they cannot take willingly take military jobs unless conscripted, so on and so forth.

-Culture wise, well, basically just copy-paste Japanese Culture and that’s it really, maybe with some minor adjustments.

Main Military Units: Lancer, Bowman, Samurai, Priest/Priestess

I was sold at naval superiority I love ships! I am afraid you are adding a lot of layers of complexity with the priesthood though, but it depends on how well you think you can portray it. I too had the perception that religion played a larger role in Hoshido than in Nohr and might add to their crusading spirit against the Nohrian 'heathens'. Also, when you mention the Light Dragon's blessing, do you mean that literally or is it just the prevalent perception in Hoshido? I mean, it does suffice to say that Hoshido just has better lands and rivers suitable for crops compared to the mountains and crags and steepes of Nohr.

You are correct that Japanese iron is shitty and they made it up with better smithing technique.

I am surprised though that you didn't mention anything about the pegasi population. Unlike wyverns, it does seem like pegasi are only native in Hoshido which I presumed to be that they had frigid mountains which pegasi seem to like according to previous FE (my own presumption though). It can also double why Hoshido never breeded war horses, despite the inherent effectiveness of them.

[JupiterKnight]

Hoshido's Pegasi are Tenma, which are different from the normal Pegasi. Like the fact that they don't care about gender.

[Taka-kun]

Hoshido's Pegasi are Tenma, which are different from the normal Pegasi. Like the fact that they don't care about gender.

Oh yeah, totally forgot about that. Though I think similarities can be drawn between them, despite the noticeable difference. I mean, female berserkers is probably not an inherent trait. They just want wield them axes.

[OakTree]

Hoshido's Pegasi are Tenma, which are different from the normal Pegasi. Like the fact that they don't care about gender.

I still think that is stupid.

I mean, didn't FE3 feature male enemy Pegasus Riders? Why did they stop there?

[Damosel]

I really like the difference between temna (meaning "sky horse") and pegasus, even if it's just flavor there are examples in Eastern mythology of winged horses- so step off Greeks, we don't need Posiodon for this! I hope the localization keeps in that difference and doesn't try to "dumb it down" for the English speaking audiences like they've done with "Subaki".

Both Tenma and Golden Kites appear to be Hoshido-only animals, only exception are the black tenma of Dark Falco but I imagine that's a few enterprizing ranchers trying to make a bundle in Nohr. That and the fact Hoshido really doesn't ride horses? Dunno why not, but it's a thing in Nohr and decidedly not in Hoshido.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Damosel

[Sunwoo]

Slight tangent, but what exactly is a golden kite anyway? I mean, yeah, I know they're the mounts for the golden kite warrior class, but what exactly is it in the Japanese mythos? Because when I tried to wiki it I didn't get anything useful. (And yeah, I know I should have done more research, I was just too busy with other stuff to go any further than wikipedia.)

[Damosel]

Slight tangent, but what exactly is a golden kite anyway?

In-game they just seem to be really big birds, their design harkening to Eastern pheonix, despite kites being an actual avian raptor species.

Mythologically:

The badge depicts a golden kite, a messenger of the kami as described in the ancient Japanese chronicle Nihon Shoki, which helped Emperor Jimmu defeat his enemies in battle.

source

Edited September 22, 2015 by Damosel

[Alazen]

For anybody looking for sources to help with Eastern worldbuilng, you can start here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/130735151/War-and-State-Building-in-Medieval-Japan-Ferejohn-John

It has essays from experts on pre-Meiji Japanese history.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Alazen

[Time the Crestfallen]

I was sold at naval superiority I love ships! I am afraid you are adding a lot of layers of complexity with the priesthood though, but it depends on how well you think you can portray it. I too had the perception that religion played a larger role in Hoshido than in Nohr and might add to their crusading spirit against the Nohrian 'heathens'. Also, when you mention the Light Dragon's blessing, do you mean that literally or is it just the prevalent perception in Hoshido? I mean, it does suffice to say that Hoshido just has better lands and rivers suitable for crops compared to the mountains and crags and steepes of Nohr.

The Priesthood might be a little complicated, but I'm sure I can pull it off. In terms of the 'Light Dragons Blessing', well the Dark Dragons killed their land just by living on it, so it's more vegetative and has a more diverse wildife, while the enhanced growth was done by Anankos as his way of apologising for not doing something about the Dark Dragons when he had the chance and they're the ones who suffered for it. (I knew I forgot to mention something...).

[Sunwoo]

All right, thanks Damosel. So I guess pegasi/tenma and golden kites are the only mounts that are used on the Hoshido side. Not counting the puppeteer because someone built that.

[NekoKnight]

I really like the difference between temna (meaning "sky horse") and pegasus, even if it's just flavor there are examples in Eastern mythology of winged horses- so step off Greeks, we don't need Posiodon for this! I hope the localization keeps in that difference and doesn't try to "dumb it down" for the English speaking audiences like they've done with "Subaki".

Both Tenma and Golden Kites appear to be Hoshido-only animals, only exception are the black tenma of Dark Falco but I imagine that's a few enterprizing ranchers trying to make a bundle in Nohr. That and the fact Hoshido really doesn't ride horses? Dunno why not, but it's a thing in Nohr and decidedly not in Hoshido.

Why would it matter if they changed Tenma to Pegasus? Unless they make in game references to how Tenma are different than Pegasus (there aren't any "Pegasus" in Fates to compare to), they are indistinguishable and might as well be called what westerners are familiar with. The only difference I've heard about them is allowing men to ride them (iirc, this is only mentioned in promotional materials to explain a retcon), but considering Pegasus in Greek mythology were ridden by men, Fire Emblem chooses its own lore.

tl:dr Everything got renamed in Hoshido for flavor. Bowmen are still Archers and Tenma are still Pegasus.

[Thor Odinson]

It was mentioned in Luna x Tsubaki actually

Tsubaki: Yes. Sure, they look alike, but they're totally different species. Byakuya's tenma and Anya's falcons don't hate men and because they aren't limited to women, they can carry both. That's what is supposed to be written in new strategy books.

http://pastebin.com/9b5md60s

[NekoKnight]

Ugh... multiverse tie-ins... How would Tsubaki even know about Pegasus and Tenma being "totally different species" unless they also existed in the world of Fates? "I read it in a strategy book or something".

I don't think it really matters for the naming convention at any rate. As far as I'm aware Tenma in Fates don't take significant cues from eastern mythology that would really distinguish them from what we understand to be a Pegasus.

Edited September 23, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Thor Odinson]

Maybe there's subtle biological differences that we can't really tell on a tiny ass 3ds screen on a low-poly model. Like rabbits and hares, but more subtle.

Less joking aside, I'm only really here to drag out relevant canon text since I've pretty much read every gen1 support that's been translated anyway. Whatever you make of it that's up to you. Just pointing out that it's been said more than just promotion materials.

[Alazen]

We should establish what the ultimate end of Fates should be. At least for each rewrite.

For example, without a scapegoat like Hydra for both kingdoms to friend-up against I don't see how peace in the continent can be established without one or both being beaten. Assuming we're keeping the premise of Nohr going on a conquest spree.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Alazen

[NekoKnight]

It will depend on the rewrite and which direction each person wants to take the story. The power balance definitely won't remain the same, however. I think it would be lazy to just end it with "And then the continent was consolidated under a single power" because even if one side wins, Hoshido and Nohr are too different culturally for them to both be ruled by a single faction. If Nohr wins, I could see part of Hoshido being annexed but just enough to get the resources they need. It's hard to say what the Hoshidans would do if they won since they have most of the things they need already. Maybe some forced political marriages will happen to join the Hoshido and Nohrian royal lines. Another idea is a peaceful resolution but you could note in the epilogue that the peace could only last so long and the seeds of conflict were already growing.

I like mixed endings so an ending like "Everyone goes home and has ice cream" wouldn't be satisfying. It should be optimistic but still feel the weight of what has happened and what will happen in the future.

Edited September 23, 2015 by NekoKnight

[RedMage]

Honestly, if Hydra wasn't part of the story, I think Fates would have been a lot better. Hydra could still exist, but as a already dead ancestor of the royals, so they could use dragon vein. I also thought Touma was a missed opportunity.

This is what I think could have happened if Hydra had no role in the story and if Touma had more focus. I marked it as spoilers, since it's pretty long.

-Garon is alive and not a slime monster to make him a antagonist you can sympathize.
-Kamui is blood-related to Sumeragi and the Hoshido siblings.
-Aqua can be a Nohrian princess by birth to keep the counterpart theme, but I think she'd still be a Touma princess living at Touma since her father wasn't killed and her mother never married Garon. She can be third route-exclusive and maybe appear for one or two scenes in Nohr and Hoshido as a minor character but never reveal that she's a princess.
-Aqua isn't a main character in Nohr or Hoshido, so this can give more screen time and development to the other royal siblings.
-Kamui doesn't get the dark magic sword that blows up the capital. Mikoto can stay alive or die in a different way. Many Hoshidan citizens are happy to get Kamui back, but there are others who are suspicious of his Nohr upbringing and think Kamui returning might "corrupt" Hoshido's royal family so an bowman would try to assassinate Kamui but Mikoto sees it and lets the arrow hit her instead. Mikoto dies because staves seem to work only in gameplay but not in cutscenes. The assassin is executed, and likewise, there are some Hoshidans who blame Kamui for Mikoto's death and others who don't blame Kamui and thought it was a noble death.
(In the game, I found it weird that Takumi is the only one who gets mad at Kamui for Mikoto's death and the other deaths at the capital. After that chapter, none of the characters mention it.)
-Chapter 6 takes places at the ravine area. In Nohr or Hoshido, Kamui could go back to the country they sided with safely. In the third path, Kamui is being cornered by Nohr and Hoshido troops and ends up accidentally falling into the ravine, discovering Touma and meeting Aqua. Both Nohr and Hoshido thinks Kamui died.
-Touma is not a dead country and has their own army and culture, instead of being a rehash of undead Nohr and Hoshido generics. Along with Aqua, other Touma characters would be playable.
-Touma citizens can leave the ravine and travel to the other countries, but not many do. Most of them prefer being an isolated country underground. The Touma curse still exists, but something enacted by a royal Touma heirloom in order to make sure that citizens who leave Touma don't talk about it to outsiders and keep Touma an isolated, unknown country to the rest of the world. Like a more extreme version of the Fire Tribe's beliefs about solitude. At least other countries know the Fire Tribe exists. Not in Touma's case.
-And since FE is still a JRPG and seems to want to stick with a mythical being who wants world domination to be the main antagonist, maybe Touma knows that a powerful, god-like creature underground is planning to take over the world, but also knows they can't defeat it by themselves without the Fire Emblem and need help. No dragon final bosses please - too overused in FE.
-Aqua becomes a main character in this route and actually has character development. She is torn between keeping Touma isolated or ending the curse and interact with other nations and asking them for help in defeating the creature, which is why she leaves the ravine a few times to get an understanding of the outside world, hence, why you get to meet her in Nohr or Hoshido paths. She is indecisive and is also hesitant on trusting outsiders, but after meeting Kamui, becomes more sure that being isolated is not helping Touma.
-Kamui is an outsider in Touma, so his role is to prove to them that interacting with outsiders isn't so bad. The king is suspicious of Kamui and outsiders, but eventually convinced and removes the curse because Touma is going to be dead soon if they don't get help. Kamui along with Aqua and co. goes up and meets with the Nohr and Hoshido siblings to tell them about the creature and that they have to work together in order to defeat it. Everyone is shocked Kamui is alive and doesn't believe what he or Aqua says.
-Of course, they are somehow eventually convinced and decides to temporarily work together to defeat the creature. While they do, Nohr and Hoshido soldiers bond, they realize their enemies aren't as bad as they thought, which leads to them signing some peace treaty after the creature is defeated. Touma soldiers also bond with them and Touma becomes an allied country of both/or stay neutral but trades with them, ending their isolation.
-In the Nohr path, Garon lives and Hoshido gets annexed into Nohr. In Hoshido path, Garon dies and Hoshido makes Nohr agree not to invade again through treaty and helps Nohr with the starvation problem in exchange for Nohr's ore and materials since their armor seems way better for defense, considering many characters in Hoshido are like glass canons compared to Nohr. And Touma is an ignored and unknown country in both routes.

Kamui would lose his dragon transformation, which I don't mind tbh. It bothered me that it has focus for one chapter and no importance later. The Nohr siblings don't even react to it at all. It was also a big giveaway for me that Kamui wasn't related to the Hoshido siblings even before the game was released.

Edited September 23, 2015 by RedMage

[Taka-kun]

Now I am curious about how NoA will localize LunaxSubaki support. It felt like just a lazy explanation why they suddenly have male riders since the reason why pegasi only picked female riders were never stated before, IIRC.

The Priesthood might be a little complicated, but I'm sure I can pull it off. In terms of the 'Light Dragons Blessing', well the Dark Dragons killed their land just by living on it, so it's more vegetative and has a more diverse wildife, while the enhanced growth was done by Anankos as his way of apologising for not doing something about the Dark Dragons when he had the chance and they're the ones who suffered for it. (I knew I forgot to mention something...).

What? I thought the Light Dragons and the Dark Dragons were the same thing under two different religions? And the naming convention is what led to the great schism of the religion.

[JupiterKnight]

@Redmage: Apparently there are still people living in Touma in secret. Somewhere.

Plus I feel if Touma is to remain separate it needs to keep up the Invisible theme since that's part of its theme, so the people there could be naturally invisible with the likes of Aqua being able to make themselves visiblel. Though people can sense their bloodlust. I don't know how they do it, but sensing bloodlust is usually how they figure the Spirits are around since you normally can't see them until they make themselves visible.

Also lots and lots of water.

@Taka-Kun: The Light Dragons and the Dark Dragons were two different dragon groups in Phillius take on Fates mythos. But the head dragon talked about in both countries is Hydra. The Dark Dragons were ostracized due to their powers naturally causing ruin to what's around them.

Edited September 23, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[NekoKnight]

Honestly, if Hydra wasn't part of the story, I think Fates would have been a lot better. Hydra could still exist, but as a already dead ancestor of the royals, so they could use dragon vein. I also thought Touma was a missed opportunity.

This is what I think could have happened if Hydra had no role in the story and if Touma had more focus. I marked it as spoilers, since it's pretty long.

-Garon is alive and not a slime monster to make him a antagonist you can sympathize.

-Kamui is blood-related to Sumeragi and the Hoshido siblings.

-Aqua can be a Nohrian princess by birth to keep the counterpart theme, but I think she'd still be a Touma princess living at Touma since her father wasn't killed and her mother never married Garon. She can be third route-exclusive and maybe appear for one or two scenes in Nohr and Hoshido as a minor character but never reveal that she's a princess.

-Aqua isn't a main character in Nohr or Hoshido, so this can give more screen time and development to the other royal siblings.

-Kamui doesn't get the dark magic sword that blows up the capital. Mikoto can stay alive or die in a different way. Many Hoshidan citizens are happy to get Kamui back, but there are others who are suspicious of his Nohr upbringing and think Kamui returning might "corrupt" Hoshido's royal family so an bowman would try to assassinate Kamui but Mikoto sees it and lets the arrow hit her instead. Mikoto dies because staves seem to work only in gameplay but not in cutscenes. The assassin is executed, and likewise, there are some Hoshidans who blame Kamui for Mikoto's death and others who don't blame Kamui and thought it was a noble death.

(In the game, I found it weird that Takumi is the only one who gets mad at Kamui for Mikoto's death and the other deaths at the capital. After that chapter, none of the characters mention it.)

-Chapter 6 takes places at the ravine area. In Nohr or Hoshido, Kamui could go back to the country they sided with safely. In the third path, Kamui is being cornered by Nohr and Hoshido troops and ends up accidentally falling into the ravine, discovering Touma and meeting Aqua. Both Nohr and Hoshido thinks Kamui died.

-Touma is not a dead country and has their own army and culture, instead of being a rehash of undead Nohr and Hoshido generics. Along with Aqua, other Touma characters would be playable.

-Touma citizens can leave the ravine and travel to the other countries, but not many do. Most of them prefer being an isolated country underground. The Touma curse still exists, but something enacted by a royal Touma heirloom in order to make sure that citizens who leave Touma don't talk about it to outsiders and keep Touma an isolated, unknown country to the rest of the world. Like a more extreme version of the Fire Tribe's beliefs about solitude. At least other countries know the Fire Tribe exists. Not in Touma's case.

-And since FE is still a JRPG and seems to want to stick with a mythical being who wants world domination to be the main antagonist, maybe Touma knows that a powerful, god-like creature underground is planning to take over the world, but also knows they can't defeat it by themselves without the Fire Emblem and need help. No dragon final bosses please - too overused in FE.

-Aqua becomes a main character in this route and actually has character development. She is torn between keeping Touma isolated or ending the curse and interact with other nations and asking them for help in defeating the creature, which is why she leaves the ravine a few times to get an understanding of the outside world, hence, why you get to meet her in Nohr or Hoshido paths. She is indecisive and is also hesitant on trusting outsiders, but after meeting Kamui, becomes more sure that being isolated is not helping Touma.

-Kamui is an outsider in Touma, so his role is to prove to them that interacting with outsiders isn't so bad. The king is suspicious of Kamui and outsiders, but eventually convinced and removes the curse because Touma is going to be dead soon if they don't get help. Kamui along with Aqua and co. goes up and meets with the Nohr and Hoshido siblings to tell them about the creature and that they have to work together in order to defeat it. Everyone is shocked Kamui is alive and doesn't believe what he or Aqua says.

-Of course, they are somehow eventually convinced and decides to temporarily work together to defeat the creature. While they do, Nohr and Hoshido soldiers bond, they realize their enemies aren't as bad as they thought, which leads to them signing some peace treaty after the creature is defeated. Touma soldiers also bond with them and Touma becomes an allied country of both/or stay neutral but trades with them, ending their isolation.

-In the Nohr path, Garon lives and Hoshido gets annexed into Nohr. In Hoshido path, Garon dies and Hoshido makes Nohr agree not to invade again through treaty and helps Nohr with the starvation problem in exchange for Nohr's ore and materials since their armor seems way better for defense, considering many characters in Hoshido are like glass canons compared to Nohr. And Touma is an ignored and unknown country in both routes.

Kamui would lose his dragon transformation, which I don't mind tbh. It bothered me that it has focus for one chapter and no importance later. The Nohr siblings don't even react to it at all. It was also a big giveaway for me that Kamui wasn't related to the Hoshido siblings even before the game was released.

The changes are mostly good but it still has problems concerning the 3rd route.

-Why doesn't Aqua do anything in the routes you choose Hoshido or Nohr? Is the world-ending threat not important enough for her to act?

-Why doesn't the world ending monster attack if you don't choose the 3rd route? Was it only a threat to Touma?

-If the monster is only a threat to Touma, why would Hoshido and Nohr go as far as teaming up to stop it?

These problems could be alleviated by the monster not being an immediate threat (in other words, the events of the 3rd route will happen eventually, whether you side with Touma initially or not) but it would have to be brought up in the epilogue of the first two routes (Aqua's inaction would still require a better explanation than hesitation).

[Alazen]

I find it better to just cut Aqua. She brings nothing to the narrative that other characters couldn't bring.

If you need a foil to Kamui who doesn't immediately side with him then you can axe one of the maid sisters and put the other one under the spotlight. If you need somebody to draw Kamui into the Touma issue then you can actually try harder than IS did to make Lilith relevant. The Nohr Rebellion should get a mass rewrite if not be axed.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Alazen

[NekoKnight]

Maybe people who have played the 3rd route can tell me but I wondering what kind of character development Kamui can go through when they don't side with Nohr or Hoshido. For my rewrite at least, the theme for Nohr is choosing your loved ones over your blood relations. The theme of Hoshido is choosing to do the moral thing rather than what you want to do. But what would a third route be about? Is there much of a personal ultimatum for Kamui if he doesn't need to choose one side of his family?

[Time the Crestfallen]

Maybe people who have played the 3rd route can tell me but I wondering what kind of character development Kamui can go through when they don't side with Nohr or Hoshido. For my rewrite at least, the theme for Nohr is choosing your loved ones over your blood relations. The theme of Hoshido is choosing to do the moral thing rather than what you want to do. But what would a third route be about? Is there much of a personal ultimatum for Kamui if he doesn't need to choose one side of his family?

I'm not sure, but apparently Touma!Kamui is a balance between the two routes. He isn't miserable and cynical like he is in Nohr, but he still loses his idealism and isn't as cheerful as he is in Hoshido. I'm not sure what overall theme you could have, but hopefully this helps a little.

Anyway, I'd like to take a break from writing world-building and move onto characters for now, so what are your biggest gripes with characters (this can be personality or plot)?

[NekoKnight]

I'm not sure, but apparently Touma!Kamui is a balance between the two routes. He isn't miserable and cynical like he is in Nohr, but he still loses his idealism and isn't as cheerful as he is in Hoshido. I'm not sure what overall theme you could have, but hopefully this helps a little.

Anyway, I'd like to take a break from writing world-building and move onto characters for now, so what are your biggest gripes with characters (this can be personality or plot)?

I think for most people the biggest complaints are more about how the story uses characters rather than the characters themselves. Some characters care so much about Kamui that their own character become more shallow. Characters should have their own motivations, philosophies and values that aren't trumped just because someone with "Protagonist" pinned to their shirt walks into the room. Much like real (socially adjusted) people, characters are defined by their own values and the wishes of others are considered second.

The only character I had a (non-Kamui related) problem with was Marx. His devotion to Garon seems misplaced and poorly justified so the showdown with him felt like forced drama. Fierce loyalty to a brutal king can work, but we need to hear the reasons for it.

Obviously the villains need more work. A lot of people seem to be taking them in a sympathetic direction but personally, I'm okay with characters being completely unsympathetic, provided they have reasons for doing the things they do. For example, my Ganz is a former criminal who gained his rank through his ferociousness and willingness to chop people up. He acts partially in fear of what Garon would do to him if disobeyed, but he's still a rotten person at the end of the day. Let villains be vile, I say!