Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Time the Crestfallen]

I think for most people the biggest complaints are more about how the story uses characters rather than the characters themselves. Some characters care so much about Kamui that their own character become more shallow. Characters should have their own motivations, philosophies and values that aren't trumped just because someone with "Protagonist" pinned to their shirt walks into the room. Much like real (socially adjusted) people, characters are defined by their own values and the wishes of others are considered second.

The only character I had a (non-Kamui related) problem with was Marx. His devotion to Garon seems misplaced and poorly justified so the showdown with him felt like forced drama. Fierce loyalty to a brutal king can work, but we need to hear the reasons for it.

Obviously the villains need more work. A lot of people seem to be taking them in a sympathetic direction but personally, I'm okay with characters being completely unsympathetic, provided they have reasons for doing the things they do. For example, my Ganz is a former criminal who gained his rank through his ferociousness and willingness to chop people up. He acts partially in fear of what Garon would do to him if disobeyed, but he's still a rotten person at the end of the day. Let villains be vile, I say!

Well I did say plot flaws included. But anyway, you have a good point about Ganz.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Phillius

[CatskillEagle]

The only character I had a (non-Kamui related) problem with was Marx. His devotion to Garon seems misplaced and poorly justified so the showdown with him felt like forced drama. Fierce loyalty to a brutal king can work, but we need to hear the reasons for it.

I'm currently writing a character in an original fiction of mine who is in quite a similar situation to Marx and I'm trying to devise plausible reasons for his loyalty, so this question is quite interesting to me. What were you thinking about to "make it work?" To me, Marx has some personal attachments to Garon being his son and remembering him for the kind father he used to be. In a lot of ways I think Marx behaves similarly to the child of an alcoholic or abusive parent who despite the terrible behavior of their parent feels a sense of misplaced/confused loyalty and a need to "protect" or "save" the parent.

Also, if Nohr is in such disastrous straits Marx may feel Garon's brutality is justified in order to save the country; he sees it as disturbing, but pragmatic. A necessary evil so to speak.

I'm interested in hearing other reasons as well.

[Alazen]

The problem of Marx being Fake Garon's lackey go back to both Garons being flat and unsympathetic characters. Neither are working to free humanity form the clutches of gods leading them astray (Rudolf), they're not trying unite a peninsula that has suffered from a long-running conflict that BOTH sides were noted for pushing along. The actual Garon apparently couldn't be bothered to ask Sumeragi for help with Nohr's resource issue and Fake Garon is a mustache twirler.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Alazen

[NekoKnight]

I'm currently writing a character in an original fiction of mine who is in quite a similar situation to Marx and I'm trying to devise plausible reasons for his loyalty, so this question is quite interesting to me. What were you thinking about to "make it work?" To me, Marx has some personal attachments to Garon being his son and remembering him for the kind father he used to be. In a lot of ways I think Marx behaves similarly to the child of an alcoholic or abusive parent who despite the terrible behavior of their parent feels a sense of misplaced/confused loyalty and a need to "protect" or "save" the parent.

Also, if Nohr is in such disastrous straits Marx may feel Garon's brutality is justified in order to save the country; he sees it as disturbing, but pragmatic. A necessary evil so to speak.

I'm interested in hearing other reasons as well.

I'm thinking a combination of the bolded. Marx is a prince and heir-apparent of a nation that has long been accustomed to pragmatism in order to survive (Kamui is the weirdo for advocating so much mercy). Considering his upbringing and role in society, he's probably as patriotic as one can get. Garon may be brutal at times but his rule is effective enough to hold together a chaotic country like Nohr. Marx is also the only child of Garon who wasn't born from a mistress so perhaps he was treated the kindest amongst his siblings. I can imagine Marx being a paragon of Nohrian values (strength, courage, loyalty), so he's treated well by his father.

Basically, Marx is looking at his father through rose-colored glasses, so even if Garon starts to become increasingly brutal, Marx won't acknowledge it. It could even be his pride preventing him from admitting that a man he respected and tried to emulate all his life isn't such a good person after all. People talk about "My Country, Right or Wrong" characters (like Camus) but loyalty is too simple and impersonal a motive, for my tastes. It would be more interesting to write Marx as a tragic character who can't realize the mistake of following his father until it's too late (ultimately leading to Elise's and his own death in the Hoshido route).

Edited September 24, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Alazen]

Just pointing out that Marx being Fake Garon's lackey can be fixed up by not having Fake Garon and making sure the actual Garon is not a mustache twirler.

[JupiterKnight]

Honestly the not asking another country for resources and just invading them for it is more realistic than just asking nicely. Especially if the resources needed outweigh what they could possibly give you if you did do that. Then there's the problem that Hoshido had to be told outright on Hoshido/Birthright that Nohr has such problems despite having assassins and spies sent into Nohr for years, along with aid from willing traitors on their side like Crimson and Chevaliers forces.

Edited September 24, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Alazen]

Honestly the not asking another country for resources and just invading them for it is more realistic than just asking nicely.

Not really. Cultures such as the Romans or Nazi Germany were significantly driven by their respective ideologies instead of only gathering resources. Had (for example) Hitler been more of a realist he wouldn't have had Germany go to war.

[JupiterKnight]

Humans can make bad decisions thinking it might benefit them or their goal. Leaders included. So a nation going to war for resources is not far fetched at all. People have gone to war over many things, including generations of hatred for what happened to their ancestors passed on and taught to the current generation as part of the cycle.

[Alazen]

You're the one who claimed that going to war for resources is more realistic than asking. I'm pointing out that no, from the view of the state going through the dangers of an invasion is not more ''realistic'' than negotiation unless the invader can't be beaten conventionally by the other side.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Alazen

[JupiterKnight]

I can personally see a nation that has sustained itself in the past by invading and taking over smaller countries as thinking it could take on and beat Hoshido, with Chevalier, Muse, and the Ice Tribe under their conrol. Plus you also have to factor in that Nohrians naturally envy and dislike the Hoshidans because they were born in paradise.

The only reason they haven't invaded and taken over after Sumeragis death is Mikotos magical barrier.

[NekoKnight]

I'm going to side on JupiterKnight on the matter of Nohr/Hoshido relations. If Nohr had a history of conquest (remember all that pre-release speculation about them being based on the Romans?), it would make sense that they wouldn't/couldn't just ask Hoshido for the resources they need. Likewise, Hoshido is a very different culture than Nohr so they probably don't want to give anything to them. (Assuming, of course that the cultures are indeed more than an eastern/western paint job.)

[Damosel]

It's also possible in the past Nohr tried ask- or at least sending in merchants to trade or diplomats to negotiate and Hoshido said "No" and turned them away (or possibly, killed them). Either because of isolationist policies or because, like in game, they really don't understand the straits Nohr is in and thus, really don't care- such as trade between China/Enland in history, they could've not been interested in the other's goods to it would've been heavily lopsided (and well, we know how that led up to the Opium Wars).

Past beef or not, Nohr's used to taking what they need by force, so I could easily see a polite no (or something worse) getting a beyond "send the iron ships" response.

[Alazen]

You all posted speculation. What we have in-game is Ryoma being dandy with supplying an enemy nation after seeing how things are in it. What we see and read of Sumeragi with Mikoto portrays as them as more sympathetic than both Garons, so I doubt either of them would object to what Ryoma did.

It comes off as you posters trying to fill in for Fates' black (or at best dark grey) and white approach to war between nations.

[JupiterKnight]

Nothing I said about why they might go to war with Hoshido suggested that Garon was some flawless ruler. Only that as a nation that has fought and invaded nations in the past for resources it's natural they would do it again. Aqua even mentions they've conquered other lands in her IK support with Kamui.

Plus the smaller nations around Nohr are subservient to it. That's why they could freely slaughter all the dancers in Muse despite being in another nation or how Chevalier was considered a part of their forces until their betrayal. It's meant to contrast with Hoshidos smaller neighbors that are neutral to the war with the exception of Fuuma.

She also brings up that since ancient times Nohr has sought to invade Hoshido. It isn't the first time.

And it still has to be taken into consideration that Hoshido never noticed the problems of Nohr until near the end despite how blatantly obvious they are. It kinda makes Hoshido come off as idiots, which I guess wouldn't be far fetched if Aqua's tactical abilities is needed to win the war. So for thousands of years they've been ignorant of what life is like in Nohr despite having assassins and spies.

Edited September 25, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[NekoKnight]

You all posted speculation. What we have in-game is Ryoma being dandy with supplying an enemy nation after seeing how things are in it. What we see and read of Sumeragi with Mikoto portrays as them as more sympathetic than both Garons, so I doubt either of them would object to what Ryoma did.

It comes off as you posters trying to fill in for Fates' black (or at best dark grey) and white approach to war between nations.

Hm? I was just talking about how I think the story should be, based on the depictions of Nohr/Hoshido and what real life cultures and circumstances they are inspired by. Everyone knows that in the story proper that Nohr is improbably evil and Hoshido improbably good. This is a thread for story rewrites so speculating and adding further details to justify why things work is part of what we do.

[JupiterKnight]

Neither nation is supposed to be good or bad, but the way the game does it comes off as a terrible good and evil deal because it's too extreme.

[Ryo]

It kinda makes Hoshido come off as idiots, which I guess wouldn't be far fetched if Aqua's tactical abilities is needed to win the war.

To be fair, in Hoshido Aqua doesn't really hatch any notable ridiculous plan like she did in the other paths.

[Alazen]

Nothing I said about why they might go to war with Hoshido suggested that Garon was some flawless ruler. Only that as a nation that has fought and invaded nations in the past for resources it's natural they would do it again. Aqua even mentions they've conquered other lands in her IK support with Kamui just to show how ignorant you are.

Plus the smaller nations around Nohr are subservient to it. That's why they could freely slaughter all the dancers in Muse despite being in another nation or how Chevalier was considered a part of their forces until their betrayal. It's meant to contrast with Hoshidos smaller neighbors that are neutral to the war with the exception of Fuuma.

She also brings up that since ancient times Nohr has sought to invade Hoshido. It isn't the first time.

And it still has to be taken into consideration that Hoshido never noticed the problems of Nohr until near the end despite how blatantly obvious they are. It kinda makes Hoshido come off as idiots, which I guess wouldn't be far fetched if Aqua's tactical abilities is needed to win the war. So for thousands of years they've been ignorant of what life is like in Nohr despite having assassins and spies.

It's a problem how far somebody will go to defend sloppy worldbuilding, narrative direction, and characterization.

Glorious Hoshido did practically nothing wrong. Nohr is an empire where apparently asking for help is a crime and its leadership is infested by mustache-twirlers. That is inexcusable for a respectable war-focused narrative that primarily has humans fighting humans (actual war is never white).

Hoshido as a nation should be portrayed akin to actual East Asian hegemonies such as the Mongol Empire or assorted Chinese dynasties. Which I assure you, kept their neighbors under their thumbs if not being predatory.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Alazen

[JupiterKnight]

I have pointed out how it goes too far in either extreme and that's a problem. It makes it hard to take it seriously when the people are aggressive and ambitious because they live in literal Mordor and Hoshido is Eden where everyone has the luxury of being born better off than in Nohr and have the ability of looking down on the savage Nohrians because they live in hell and don't have the luxury of being nice in order to survive.

To be honest Hoshido being portrayed as so pure and innocent and that not a single person has ever done anything wrong ever if they are from there makes me honestly wish Nohr was an actual evil campaign and not just Kamui sparing Hoshidans every chance you get. I hate that. I hate it so much.

I still don't see the problem with what Garon did. It's how Nohr has survived until this point and he's simply doing what past rulers have done. A king can be a ruthless tyrant to his enemies but a loving father to his kids

Edited September 25, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[B.Leu]

I want to ask this: Just... what did Nohr ever conquered exactly ?

If they did conquered something, well the 'the weather is bad/crops are bad/etc' excuses is not valid anymore then (For a change), except maybe if for thousand years, they conveniently conquered lands that didn't had any of that or just loose their new lands before they could do anything with it ? Because yeah, you kind of need time for crops and all of that but it' still horribly dumb.

Unless they just take things in said conquered lands, then go away ? It still doesn't make sense.

Just... what ?

Edited September 25, 2015 by B.Leu

[Damosel]

You all posted speculation. What we have in-game is Ryoma being dandy with supplying an enemy nation after seeing how things are in it. What we see and read of Sumeragi with Mikoto portrays as them as more sympathetic than both Garons, so I doubt either of them would object to what Ryoma did.

It comes off as you posters trying to fill in for Fates' black (or at best dark grey) and white approach to war between nations.

All we have is speculation. The game never explicitly states when/why Nohr and Hoshido went to war- EVEN with the fact that Garon ambused Sumeragi, murdered him, and kidnapped a royal child. It's never explicitly stated that THAT is when/why the war started. (it's still stupid how all the characters talk about Kamui being kidnapped more than their father's cold-blooded murder)

We don't know if the war has been going on for decades/centuries like the art in the opening CG suggests. We don't know, if that's the case, why it started all the way back then. All we have are the text of three routes and how clueless all the characters come off on them.

Also while I can buy Mikoto being cool with giving international aid via food, I can't agree that Sumeragi would be the same. We know almost nothing of his character, other than what his children remember (from long ago when they were itty bitty) and his possessed self. So I mean, one could claim he's all for the war- not really any evidence for or against this stance, other than the game's "No Hoshido is perfect and full of peace-loving people, ignore the fact that Saizou went to Nohr on an assassination mission."

We're definitely trying to fill in a lot. But I don't know why you're lambasting us for doing so. Cause it's hardly a defense of the game itself and more of us trying to figure out how the timeline and setting might actually work semi-realistically.

I want to ask this: Just... what did Nohr ever conquered exactly ?

If they did conquered something, well the 'the weather is bad/crops are bad/etc' excuses is not valid anymore then (For a change), except maybe if for thousand years, they conveniently conquered lands that didn't had any of that or just loose their new lands before they could do anything with it ? Because yeah, you kind of need time for crops and all of that but it' still horribly dumb.

Unless they just take things in said conquered lands, then go away ? It still doesn't make sense.

Just... what ?

It's implied (but like the origins of the war, never explicitly stated) that the smaller nations: Chevalier and Freezia, were conquered in the past. Which is why they're rebelling and trying to get out from under Nohr's rule.

During the Nohr route you actively conquer Notredea (though the gameplay is just kicking Hinoka and her troops out of a tower) and it's actually stated that Muse is neutral- which is why the Nohr sibs are confident Amusia itself wouldn't let any battles happen, bad for buisness. After one does happen they then start slaughtering citizens of another nation, but I kinda doubt Muse has the military to stop Nohr from doing it.

Which y'know are all expansionist and uncool things. I don't see how they'd turn "there's no food, I'm starving to death" into invalid excuses. It makes them guilty, but they're still hungry- so naturally they'll go looking for the resources they need. There's no justification or right or wrong to it, it just adds a bit of context to why they'd want to go around conquering tributaries.

Also the Nohr route events happen under Gooran's watch- so he's actively trying to make things even worse than they already are, all according to the mad dragon god's plan.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Damosel

[B.Leu]

If I'm not too stoned thanks to my medicine I took, it's an invalid excuse because since they have (successful) lands, that mean they have foods/crops/etc, since they have foods/crops/etc, they have everything they want. And if they have everything they want, they have literally no reason to conquer... anything then.

Wait a sec, I just understood something, you're telling me they started conquering things only after Kamui's kidnapping ? How is that possible ?

[Damosel]

You're looking at it as if "successful land" guarantees enough of a bumber crop to feed, not only the tributary states where the food is taken from, but also meet the needs of Nohr's people- which is possibly the biggest kindgom on the continent. There's also the matter of seasonal growing time, bad weather, lacking harvests, and even famines or blights- in addition to the fluctuation of the population itself, which if you look at how enormous the captital's design is, must be a considerable number.

Hoshido has way more land mass than Chevalier, and I kinda doubt Freezia has that much to offer in way of crops- fish and game maybe, that collecting those costs its own resources. Besides if we're taking the "inspired by Rome" cues from the design, there's no reason for them NOT to want to expand and conquer more- chances for glory on the battlefield and possible titles with the new allotments of land. Like in the Nohr Route how Kotarou crows about being promised huge tracks of land from Garon if Fuuma helps defeat Hoshido.

As for the "after the kinapping" I really can't say. The game never provides a solid timeline to figure out the conquering (for Chevalier and Freezia) or much about the origins of the war itself. Like I said, we can only speculate.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Damosel

[JupiterKnight]

Pretty much what Damosel said. Nohr is a large nation and all that they've conquered were smaller nations to sustain themselves. Even those conquest that have happened through Nohrs history have not able to sustain it in the long term along with living in a barely hospitable environment that Aqua admits has gone barren numerous times.

[Alazen]

Nohr being all conquering while Hoshido does nothing wrong is shoddy worldbuilding that can make you suspect nationalism impacted development.

I ask you, did China not keep its thumb on its neighbors? Was Korea not invaded by Japan and the latter's later foreign policy not shaped by the failure of that invasion?

Edited September 26, 2015 by Alazen