Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Alazen]

That post didn't make it obvious it wasn't including Starcraft 2 or World of Warcraft?

Really, there's no doubt that Starcraft (as in the game, not the series) is one of Blizzard's best narratives if not the best.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Alazen

[Thane]

That post didn't make it obvious it wasn't including Starcraft 2 or World of Warcraft?

Really, there's no doubt that Starcraft (as in the game, not the series) is one of Blizzard's best narratives if not the best.

I never said it did. I never mentioned Starcraft II, and I mentioned World of Warcraft because there was a genuinely good story from Blizzard there, and it also happened to be dark.

If Starcraft is the best story Blizzard has to offer, then I guess there's nothing more for me to say; it's a very average story where red shirts kill red shirts. The world lacks depth and so do the characters, and the only real points of interest are the temporary pacts, but even then it's painfully obvious how things are going to end.

The games are amazing, but let's not pretend the stories are anything extraordinary. Like I said, Blizzard is very much like Intelligent Systems that way.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Thane

[Taka-kun]

Izumi (Femui): The twin sister of Tatsuo. She's the second princess of the Hoshidan royal family raised by the Nohrian royal family. She can be ruthless and cruel but has a strong sense of morality and is protective of her loved ones. She sides with Hoshido for being the moraly correct choice. She is chosen by Hoshido's legendary sword Gami (but she used to be an axe fighter) and has misterious dragon powers.

Tatsuo (Mamui): The twin brother of Izumi. He's the second prince of the Hoshidan royal family raised by the Nohrian royal family. He is intelligent and kind but a bit insecure and acts like a pushover at times. He sides with Nohr to protect his family and friends striving for a war with the less victims possible. He is chosen by the Nohrian legendary sword Yato (but he used to be a lancer) and has misterious dragon powers.

Garon: The king of Nohr, he's not controlled by Hydra and is a very good father to his children (Marx, Camilla, Leon and Elise) even if he can ruthless when it comes to his enemies.

Ektrina: The deceased first wife of Garon and mother of Marx, Camilla, Leon and Elise. She died when giving birth to Elise.

Shemmei:The deceased second wife of Garon, mother of Aqua and born in Touma. She died months before Aqua's kidnapping. She's Mikoto's older sister.

Mikoto: The queen of Hoshido born in Touma, she's silk hidding steel. Kind and gentle to her loved ones but ruthless and pagmatic when she has to be. Mother of Hinoka, Izumi, Tatsuo, Takumi and Sakura. She's Shemmei's younger sister.

Sumeragi: The deceased king of Hoshido. He was a strong and kind man, the father of the Hoshidan siblings (or at least most of them). He died when Izumi and Tatsuo where five years.

Ikona: The deceased first wife of Sumeragi. She is the mother of Ryoma and she died sometime before is fifth birthday.

Ryoma: The oldest prince of Hoshido. He is a kind and understanding young man but also stuborn and very hot headded. He adores his siblings and is very protective of them but also likes to tease them. He inherited the Raijin Katana from Sumeragi.

Hinoka: The oldest princess of Hoshido. She is a very caring "lady" with strong ambitions. She's aso a bit brash and rude, most of the time she doesn't mean to be rude it's just part of her. She has the royal weapon Arashi Naginata.

Takumi: The youngest prince of Hoshido. He's a bit suspicious of people and can be quite a jerk. But behind this atitude there's a sweet boy that's a bit insecure about himself and works hard to do the best he can. He has the royal weapon Fuujin Yumi.

Sakura: The youngest princess of Hoshido. She's shy and quiet but very sweet and mature for her age. She inherited her mother's silk hidding steel personality so she knows how to assert herself. She gets the Kokoro Baton later in the story.

Marx: The oldest prince of Nohr. He is somewhat cold and distand but cares deeply for his family and country. His loyalty to Nohr is strong and he would turn against his father to protect it unlike in game and is very serious. He owns the sword Siefried.

Camilla: The oldest princess of Nohr. She is motherly and enthusiastic, but her strong protective streak can make her quite scary. Despise everything she's knows she has to fight against Izumi and won't be afraid to do it. She has the royal Nohrian axe Mjölnir it's the magical axe of Thor not a tome!

Aqua: The second princess of Nohr raised in Hoshido. She's the daughter of Shemmei and is a very quiet girl with a love for singing. She is very honest and sometimes comes off as blunt but tries her best to be nice to people especially her Hoshidan family. She has the lance Uta.

Leon: The youngest prince of Nohr. He is very intelligent and likes studying. He can be very cruel when it comes to enemies and is sometimes difficult to talk with, however he still gets along well with his siblings. He has the royal Nohrian tome Brunnhilde.

Elise: The youngest princess of Nohr. She is childlish and sweet because she was over protected by her father and siblings. She is not very fond of fighting but learns how to for the safety of her loved ones. She gets the Runestaff later in the story.

I hope this shows some of the changes I'm doing to the royal families and some of the siblings personalities in my fic. Any opinions or questions? The reason Izumi and Tatsuo used to wield other weapons besides swords is to explain the battle animations. And my God this took a lot of time to write!

Didn't mean to neglect you, Yari, this just happened to pass me by. Just some thoughts: I think most of the siblings are generally the same (at least from what I gather), barring Marx (but only that one difference though). I don't feel that Izumi's and Tatsuo's personalities match up though. Izumi is cruel and ruthless but do you mean that she is willing to compromise values and honor? Yet she has strong morality, which somewhat suggest that she wants to follow "heroic" ideals, of being on the good side and such. Tatsuo wants as little victims as possible but does that mean he can compromise values for that sake? Like murdering dozens on a wedding to save thousands on the battlefield? Yet he is also kind.

I know this is all hypothetical scenarios but those are the thought food I offer you can throw it in my face and call for another chef if though.

I never said it did. I never mentioned Starcraft II, and I mentioned World of Warcraft because there was a genuinely good story from Blizzard there, and it also happened to be dark.

If Starcraft is the best story Blizzard has to offer, then I guess there's nothing more for me to say; it's a very average story where red shirts kill red shirts. The world lacks depth and so do the characters, and the only real points of interest are the temporary pacts, but even then it's painfully obvious how things are going to end.

The games are amazing, but let's not pretend the stories are anything extraordinary. Like I said, Blizzard is very much like Intelligent Systems that way.

I am just gonna chime in that I agree. Starcraft is an amazing RTS game but there is nothing memorable about its story. Like there is Raynor the Terran and Sarah Kerrigan the mind-infested hybrid queen something. They are the only characters I remember.

[Yari]

Didn't mean to neglect you, Yari, this just happened to pass me by. Just some thoughts: I think most of the siblings are generally the same (at least from what I gather), barring Marx (but only that one difference though). I don't feel that Izumi's and Tatsuo's personalities match up though. Izumi is cruel and ruthless but do you mean that she is willing to compromise values and honor? Yet she has strong morality, which somewhat suggest that she wants to follow "heroic" ideals, of being on the good side and such. Tatsuo wants as little victims as possible but does that mean he can compromise values for that sake? Like murdering dozens on a wedding to save thousands on the battlefield? Yet he is also kind.

I know this is all hypothetical scenarios but those are the thought food I offer you can throw it in my face and call for another chef if though.

I really just changed minor things about the siblings minus Marx and Ryoma in terms of personality.

Izumi wishes to be "heroic" but she is very hard on people and herself. She takes things too far and is too harsh. She does what she thinks she must do. Cruel and ruthless has more to do with how she deals with things and her kuudere like personality. She looks cold and unfeeling wich together with how she acts makes her seem cruel and ruthless.

Tatsuo starts off as a "doormat". He's nice and polite to everyone and strives to please and be the best person he can be. His character development has him accept that because he is fighting a war there will always be victims. He still won't give up on his goal of the less victims possible and has to compromise the best way he can.

It's hard for me to describe personalities so this might be a bit hard to understand.

[Taka-kun]

I really just changed minor things about the siblings minus Marx and Ryoma in terms of personality.

Izumi wishes to be "heroic" but she is very hard on people and herself. She takes things too far and is too harsh. She does what she thinks she must do. Cruel and ruthless has more to do with how she deals with things and her kuudere like personality. She looks cold and unfeeling wich together with how she acts makes her seem cruel and ruthless.

Tatsuo starts off as a "doormat". He's nice and polite to everyone and strives to please and be the best person he can be. His character development has him accept that because he is fighting a war there will always be victims. He still won't give up on his goal of the less victims possible and has to compromise the best way he can.

It's hard for me to describe personalities so this might be a bit hard to understand.

I am getting a gist of what you are trying to do and honestly, that's a good start of where you want to go with them. But they are in all three stories? What's the difference between your Conquest and Birthright?

[Alazen]

By this point, I'm wondering if Kamui joining Hoshido should be framed as him being a tool of Hoshido or one of its leaders. Every route has him used as tool for one faction. Whether it's Hoshido, Nohr, or Touma.

[artishe]

I've heard the story is more tolerable if you actually make an effort to unlock support conversations and understand the character's motivations.

According to some the story is more character driven than others in the series.

That's the general tumblr consensus (and my opinion) for the Nohr story at least and more of us go out of our way to read/collect all the supports. Sure it doesn't explain away some of the plot contrivances or the black/white nature people were disappointed in, but it does a hell of a lot for character motivations. Marx, Camilla, Aqua, and Kamui all benefit to varying degrees from doing their supports (and for parents, the child gaiden chapters usually help, too) and getting a solid grasp on their personalities. The Nohr royal family in particular just doesn't talk about their issues (for justified reasons), so you have to dig for it. They also hid some Nohr world-building in the supports, too, that helped for Camilla in particular. IS probably should have put more development in the main plot, at least for Marx and Kamui, because while the characters did stuff I wouldn't agree with, they were generally understandable and sympathetic.

Edit: The way Nohr is written, I'd say it's more about Kamui's naivety and the royal family (Marx in particular) coming to terms with the truth about their father. More internal issues than external, so more character driven. And more character driven, I'd argue, than the games in the series that I've played.

Hoshido is definitely more plot driven, which is why I imagine people have been having less problems with it. The Hoshidan royals are also much more open about their issues, and that those are generally solved if Kamui picks the Hoshidan side. Kamui siding with Nohr doesn't fix the Nohrian's personal issues and picking Hoshido worsens them.

Edited August 25, 2015 by artishe

[Medeus]

Unless I missed one or two supports, I don't see that point. None of the supports explain away the plot holes, none of the siblings explain themselves for why they still follow their father (Leo/Elise's support does give us a glimpse into their past with him, but not for why they're still loyal to him), and Marx is actually more contradictory in his supports as he wants the best for Nohr and yet goes along with his father's favorite past time of eating babies. The supports do flesh out the characters themselves I will admit, but they don't help the story or their role in it, it's still a mess that isn't pieced together well at all.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Medeus

[Alazen]

No amount of supports in Fates excuse the crystal ball or Aqua's brilliant plan that has Nohr smashing Hoshido.

[artishe]

Unless I missed one or two supports, I don't see that point. None of the supports explain away the plot holes, none of the siblings explain themselves for why they still follow their father (Leo/Elise's support does give us a glimpse into their past with him, but not for why they're still loyal to him), and Marx is actually more contradictory in his supports as he wants the best for Nohr and yet goes along with his father's favorite past time of eating babies. The supports do flesh out the characters themselves I will admit, but they don't help the story or their role in it, it's still a mess that isn't pieced together well at all.

First off, I'm not claiming the supports explain away all the plot holes. Parts of the plot are just poorly done.

Honestly, which is where part of the problem lies, the writing split a lot of stuff over several supports. Instead of in Awakening and the older games where one support would usually explain one complete aspect of a character, IS used the larger support pool to spread out all sorts of information on the characters, making it more of a search-and-find to uncover backstory. Obviously not a good plan given how confusing it is for the people that don't get them all (Edit: and can't read them one right after another looking for a particular thing), and I'm not defending it because it's a hot mess.

As for why the royals are/were all loyal to their father, here's how I read it, so maybe that'll be helpful?:

It mostly comes down to Nohrian sibling+Kamui solidarity and being scared of what the man might do to one of them if they disobey him. Particularly Kamui, as Garon's kinda dangling her over the Nohrian families heads the whole Nohr-Hoshidan war. I don't really mind skimming through the supports and pulling out the useful ones really quick... and I'll put them under spoiler tags because it's a little long since you have to tie in information between supports. Which is stupid, but whatever. There are ~light~ spoilers under each cut.

Elise

Helpful supports: Leon, Marx, Zero, and Kamui.

First, in all of her supports, she's generally depicted to be a rather naive child. The main plot says she never met Aqua, and according to one of Aqua's supports (with Harold maybe??), she was kidnapped ~10 years before the main plot, placing Elise as really young. Now, I actually thought Leon's support explained most of her deal. Elise never knew her father's nicer form, and Leon blantantly states he could never believe he was fond of the man once. Elise isn't surprised at the statement, so she must not love Garon as a father either. The main plot tells you that Elise (and the other royal siblings) take Garon's threats towards Kamui seriously, suggesting she's more scared of him than anything else (further supported in the Leon support where she's surprised Garon was ever a gentle father). Her lack of loyalty to her father is backed up in her support with Marx, where she does go behind Marx's (and thus Garon's) back to heal some captured enemy troops (and you see a similar scenario in the main plot, too). So... Elise really doesn't approve of what they're doing but sticks around because she's scared of Garon and wants to help/protect her siblings (Kamui's support). I wouldn't say it's loyalty born of any kind of love/belief in his methods. More loyalty to her siblings.

It's also worth noting that Elise knows she has 0 tactical/war knowledge (Zero's support) and couldn't plan a rebellion anyways.

Leon

Helpful supports: Elise, Kamui, Marx, and maybe a lil bit of Camilla but that support was kinda creepy so I dunno if we wanna go there...

Like Elise, their support and some of his action in the main plot suggests he's scared of what Garon might do (particularly to Kamui) if he doesn't go along with him. Most of his supports depict him as a generally kind character who tries to keep the maximal number of his own troops alive, and the plot shows that he works behind Garon to save as many Hoshidans as he can. While Leon miiiight be capable of starting a rebellion of some kind, his supports with Kamui, Marx, and Camilla all kinda work together to explain away the rest of why he wouldn't lead one. Even if he, Kamui, and Elise had conspired together, Leon's not leading a rebellion without Marx and Camilla. First off, he's got an inferiority complex with regards to Marx, enough that he's generally avoided conflict/competition with him, as shown in their support. If he were to rebel, Marx (who's another can of worms) probably wouldn't join him, as shown if you pick the Hoshidan route. Then in Camilla's support, we see Leon reeeeally wants her approval (s2g this support was creepy, but we're gonna ignore that for a sec). He's not winning her approval starting a rebellion she may or may not join. Furthermore, tying it all back to Leon's goal of keeping the maximal number of people alive, a rebellion equals a lot of dead Nohrians (particularly if Marx and Camilla don't splinter off to join him), and Leon's the sort of character who's going to weigh all of that.

I could definitely see him hinting at a rebellion, but Marx and Camilla shutting it down hard. Zero and Elise's support also hinted a little more towards his desire to prove himself to Marx but I couldn't quite work out what Zero was implying...

Camilla

Helpful supports: Almost all of them, but in particular Zero's support and Leon/Elise's support

Camilla's opinions on her father and his actions are almost completely irrelevant because her priority is her siblings (as shown in just about all of her supports). If everyone were to unite and propose a rebellion earlier in the game, Camilla would follow them. She has far less attachment to the Nohr-Hoshido conflict than any of the others, and unlike Marx and Leon, there's nothing to suggest she ever loved Garon. Now to back up Camilla following her siblings... her support with Zero tells us she grew up as the daughter of a concubine, and we know from Leon/Elise's support that the whole concubine mess was vicious enough for concubine children to kill each other. Camilla fits right in that time frame, and her dual personality (Lazwald's and Flannel's supports kinda stand out here) suggests that, even if she weren't involved directly, Camilla was definitely screwed up by the mess. We don't get direct confirmation on how close she was to it all, but she tells Zero she wasn't sure her mother ever loved her, so it doesn't bode well for her being much more than a tool. At any rate, Camilla's seen dead siblings before and doesn't want to see it again. Her priority on the Nohr route is keeping her loved ones alive more than saving the country that kinda just made her life miserable.

Camilla's just going to go along with her siblings. She's not going to risk their lives by leading a rebellion, and if any of them were to suggest it, unless it was a unanimous decision, I only read her talking them out of it.

Marx (Warning: This one's kinda long because Marx is a piece of work compared to his siblings)

Helpful supports: Camilla, Kamui, Nyx, Sakura, Suzukaze, Siegbert (and also his gaiden), Leon, Elise, and Leon/Elise's support

Marx is the only sibling I'd say who's actually struggling with a decision instead of just being terrified of Garon and what he might do, and it's touched on in more of his supports. The thing with Marx is that to those he's not intimately close with (read: just about everyone, but particularly his non-family) his responses are more in line with the crown prince of Nohr than his actual opinion. In his support with Camilla, he outright states that his position prevents him from being close to anyone, even his family. Hence, contradictory supports.

First things first, we know Marx's relationship with his father was wierd. On the one hand, Leon/Elise's support suggests he'd have the most distinct, positive memories of his father, and Camilla's support tells us that even after Garon's... change, Marx still knows intimate details about the man. Buuuut we also have Sakura's support that tells us he was scared of him as a child. This fits about in Leon's support where they trained together, putting his desire to please his father even post change (as Sakura's support confirms that wanting his father's approval was what helped him improve). So out of all the siblings, he's the only one who remembers his father pre and post change (and has positive memories, unlike Camilla) and the only one who'd have reason to think something strange happened between. That he does think something strange happened is kinda confirmed on the Hoshido route, as he'll tell you to "save" Garon even without knowing the entire story.

Now... his internal struggle is hinted at in three supports. In Suzukaze's, we get that he's fighting without a resolution and hesitating in battle. In Siegbert's... Honestly, I really like the line so I'm just going to quote it. Translation's from pastebin.

Siegbert: But for me, father is the absolute existence…

Xander: I can understand.

Xander: For me, my father was also the absolute existence…

I'd say it kinda speaks for itself, but he's pretty clearly started to doubt his father at some point in time. In Nyx's, we actually get it spelled out pretty well. Marx doesn't want to kill people (tying waaaay back to his childhood personality in Sakura's support that he worked out of himself) but has to. Nyx then goes on to say that pushing down his feelings for the sake of upholding justice really isn't good for him. It's kinda worth noting Marx never admits he's struggling to her in the B support where she's fortune teller-y psychoanalyzing him. Buuuut then we move on to the A support, which has this super depressing gem.

Nyx: Not being able to bear what I'd already done, I had suicidal thoughts. But, I didn't run away and kept living in order to atone for what I'd done… but in the end, all I could do was kill on the battlefield…. It was unbearable. To atone by killing more people, would that really be helpful….

Marx: …… Perhaps we really are alike, Nyx. Do you have a little bit of time?

So some part (probably more than less, given how Marx doesn't usually admit crap) of Nyx's story is true, meaning that yes, there is an internal struggle going on. And it's a big one.

Finally, we have Kamui's support... If you needed proof Kamui's the reason he rebels on Nohr and pretty much flies off the handle in Hoshido, ta-daaaah! The only person he actually admits he's struggling with his father to is her in their A support.

M: ... Kamui, about what you said before.

K: What I said... before ?

M: Yeah. About how my sword training was violent that day father was in a bad mood. I'm always thinking about putting the country first before everything else, but I also consider Father's orders as absolute. But, that father, when he gives orders that don't take into account the country's best interests... And when I just can't, for the life of me, agree with these orders... In these moments, indeed, my sword may be rather violent.

I'd say that's pretty clear? But at any rate, justification for why he'd consider his father's orders absolute would be the justice Nyx mentioned and his previous memories of his father.

Soooo, to summarize, Marx is (and likely has been for a while), worrying over whether or not his actions are right, but is too busy worrying to actually go with his gut and start a rebellion. In the mean time, he just projects himself as the ideal crown prince, which hides his dilemma from everyone except Nyx (who kinda cheats to figure it out) and Kamui. It's kinda a 'duty to my father' vs. 'duty to my country' thing. I'd imagine if someone were to suggest rebellion, it'd have to be all the siblings (especially Kamui) together, and Marx would probably shoot them down anyways while continuing to worry if he was making the right decision. He's got a lot of bottled up problem goin' on.

In the main plot, they do also try to spare as many lives as possible as well as lie to Garon to protect Kamui. Just because they aren't overtly rebelling from the beginning doesn't mean they agree with Garon or support him in any way shape or form. Marx is the only one who's got a serious personal struggle going on. Like I said waaaay back in the beginning, Garon's also got Kamui hanging over all their heads with some threats the Nohr royals clearly believe he'd carry out. She's dearly important to all of them, and enough for the siblings to go along with his war. It's also worth noting that if Kamui chooses Hoshido, Marx is the only one really pushing the war (and he's got some issues after she left him), and Camilla (or Elise maybe?) mentions that the siblings kinda splintered off once she left. Kamui's pretty much the one good thing for the Nohr family and protecting her (and trying to preserve her naivety/goodness) ends up being at the crux of their rebellion issue/the Nohr plot.

Now... whether or not it's all good writing is up to debate, but I'd argue that the justification is all there. Sure, none of the siblings directly say 'this why I'm following Father,' but they don't have to for their actions to make sense. IS really should've put more of it in the main plot or spelled it out more clearly in one concise support though. And there are plenty of other problems in the plot. I'd just say this (beyond the lack of easy to find explanation) isn't really one of them.

Edit: Kinda debating making this its own topic...?

Edited August 26, 2015 by artishe

[Ryo]

I think Nohr's story problems lie not necessarily in the characters' motivations (which somewhat have been addressed in supports), but the fact that the story gives them no chance to develop from their own inner struggles. Though again, I would blame it to the shoehorned convenient plot devices. The concerns and fears are there, yet they lead to literally nowhere because all of these struggles and mental contradictions automatically disappear in like 5 seconds upon the revelation that Garon's no more than a slime monster. The siblings don't have any resolution as what they might do in their situation. They don't choose to oppose fake!Garon because they find his deeds questionable and they have become genuinely tired with his shits, but because "Hey, you're conveniently not my father, now I can kill you without regret." They suddenly forget that even though their true form has been revealed, this is still the same individual that has been mentally terrorizing them and the reason why they had to do what they didn't want to.

tl;dr: The siblings oppose Garon not because that is their own resolution, nor because they've grown out of their own fears or struggles, but because he's a monster. This is not good writing IMO.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Ryo

[artishe]

I think Nohr's story problems lie not necessary in the characters' motivations (which somewhat have been addressed in supports), but the fact that the story gives them no chance to develop from their own inner struggles. Though again, I would blame it to the shoehorned convenient plot devices. The concerns and fears are there, yet they lead to literally nowhere because all of these struggles and mental contradictions automatically disappear in like 5 seconds upon the revelation that Garon's no more than a slime monster. The siblings don't have any resolution as what they might do in their situation. They don't choose to oppose fake!Garon because they find his deeds questionable and they have become genuinely tired with his shits, but because "Hey, you're conveniently not my father, now I can kill you without regret." They suddenly forget that even though their true form has been revealed, this is still the same individual that has been mentally terrorizing them and the reason why they had to do what they didn't want to.

tl;dr: The siblings oppose Garon not because that is their own resolution, nor because they've grown out of their own fears or struggles, but because he's a monster. This is not good writing IMO.

And that's the part I'd agree needs to be rewritten. The siblings on their own are very compelling, and they have these dilemmas I would've loved to see explored in-game. Unfortunately, slime-Garon plot device removes a lot of character development they would've had if we had gotten real Garon and something for the siblings to actually debate.

Edit: Marx and Camilla in particular are gems, and it's really sad to see all that potential go to waste.

Edited August 26, 2015 by artishe

[Medeus]

While I do see your point and I will admit that I missed quite a few things, I still have a few issues with how it was handled. As you said, you have to piece together the motivations from other supports to get the full story, we don't ever get a full view of their personal dilemmas or how they affect them in terms of the plot, we have to go looking ourselves to do it. While minor characters can afford to be fully fleshed out in supports, this becomes an issue with the siblings since they are major characters and are supposed to drive the plot and the war for their own reasons that end up not being properly explored. Another issue that I have is that in some cases, we don't even get the full story and we have to fill in the holes ourselves. For instance, with your point on Camilla...

You say that her reason for following Garon is that she wants to protect her siblings due to what happened with the concubines. While that may be true, it's not thoroughly explained in any of the supports that she has, with the closest we get just being her support with Zero and her relationship with her mother. So that personal dilemma of trying to avoid another tragedy with her siblings like with the concubines is not fleshed out, and we have to go in with our own ideas to develop it ourselves.

Personally, I feel that having these characters' motivations be pushed off into the supports did more harm then good. These characters do have their reasons for why they follow Garon, but as Ryo said, they aren't fleshed out well at all and the story does nothing with them. Each one having their motivations and personal dilemmas explored could've made for a great storyline if done well, and yet they're not given the time they need.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Medeus

[artishe]

While I do see your point and I will admit that I missed quite a few things, I still have a few issues with how it was handled. As you said, you have to piece together the motivations from other supports to get the full story, we don't ever get a full view of their personal dilemmas or how they affect them in terms of the plot, we have to go looking ourselves to do it. While minor characters can afford to be fully fleshed out in supports, this becomes an issue with the siblings since they are major characters and are supposed to drive the plot and the war for their own reasons that end up not being properly explored. Another issue that I have is that in some cases, we don't even get the full story and we have to fill in the holes ourselves. For instance, with your point on Camilla...

You say that her reason for following Garon is that she wants to protect her siblings due to what happened with the concubines. While that may be true, it's not thoroughly explained in any of the supports that she has, with the closest we get just being her support with Zero and her relationship with her mother. So that personal dilemma of trying to avoid another tragedy with her siblings like with the concubines is not fleshed out, and we have to go in with our own ideas to develop it ourselves.

Personally, I feel that having these characters' motivations be pushed off into the supports did more harm then good. These characters do have their reasons for why they follow Garon, but as Ryo said, they aren't fleshed out well at all and the story does nothing with them. Each one having their motivations and personal dilemmas explored could've made for a great storyline if done well, and yet they're not given the time they need.

Yeah, IS handled it really poorly, and that's why I'm not really surprised/upset that people missed stuff. It just gets a little tiring reading the same 'Marx is stupid/ooc and so is Kamui' when everything is right there in the game, but IS didn't bother to explain it in the main plot very well. I might just put my interpretation as its own thread so I ~hopefully~ don't have to see it as much. Fingers crossed localization fixes some of that because they've got all justification right there it's just in the wrong place. As for Camilla...

I want to say Zero outright states she dotes on Kamui for selfish reasons in their C-support, and Camilla's pretty much like 'yeah, so what.' Then you get the B-support where he likens Camilla-Kamui to a master loving their pet because they themselves weren't loved and Camilla's pretty much like 'yeah, so what' again. And then you get the rest of her backstory in the A, tying it all together.

And I do agree with you and Ryo both. There are very definite issues with how they handled everything.

Since there was a shoutout to the people with my opinion (character driven Nohr story) a page or two back, I figured I'd pop in and give my two cents. A decent amount of the stuff people seem to be removing from character personalities/lineages/backstories does actually contribute to the Nohr plot and/or the character's personality/motivations, so I'd think it'd be kinda good to see some of why it was included first. Like the concubines are such a formative issue for Camilla that removing them pretty much makes her a different person unless you substitute them with something else. Or Marx's internal struggle actually existing and being a big deal for his character, such that eliminating it by making him willing to revolt from the get-go loses a good amount of his depth and all that tragedy inherent in his character, unless, of course, you compensate for that somewhere else. Or even just Kamui and her naivety being important, and not something to so quickly cut as unnecessary without at least shafting Elise to her emotional place. Edit: and let me just reiterate it's not reader/player's fault for not noticing it, because IS really didn't do a good job conveying it. You had to look.

Of course, if you want to write an entiiiiirely different story, more-or-less unrelated to the original Nohr (as some people do, and good luck!), I imagine you can cut whatever you want without needing to worry about repercussions.

Personally, I kinda want to write a not-slime-monster-Garon!AU, but that'd be something I can still use my info post for.

Edited August 26, 2015 by artishe

[FrostyFireMage]

I have to admit that all this shitting over Fates' storyline is really killing my enthusiasm for this game.

[nordopolica]

I have to admit that all this shitting over Fates' storyline is really killing my enthusiasm for this game.

There is one solution: stop reading it.

Honestly it IS a good game. Really well put together with lovable characters and great gameplay, but the story does not do it justice at all. This forum is a place to vent and sorry if this sounds harsh but it's really your own fault for coming onto a thread labelled "Fixing Fates story issues".

I think a lot of Fates' story issues could have been solved by removing Fake Garon and replacing him with a sympathetic ruler and loving father who happened to dabble in unsavoury means of protecting his country. It would foster the same sort of sympathy that one garners from Mikoto while giving the siblings ACTUAL REASONS to want to protect their father and country. Also making the Hoshido siblings your real ones; even just Takumi and Sakura I mean come on.

Part of why I don' have any problems with Awakening's story was that it left so much room to make up your own worldbuilding and backstory, but what Fates tries to do is fill in these things, but does it poorly, leaving little to no room to make your own headcanons. Which is also why I love the sound of all these fanfictions even though I haven't picked one up since I was in high school.

[Thane]

Sorry, but I disagree; Fates has far more problems than just Flubber Garon. The siblings not named Leo and Takumi are painfully underdeveloped, interesting potential subplots are skimmed over (Kamui returns to Nohr and is now able to turn into a dragon; you'd think his family members would at least mention it, but no), the plot is solely moved forward because of contrivances and plot devices, characters' actions and reactions rarely make any sense, Conquest is 3/4 filler and even the the last fourth is a complete and utter mess that feels completely forced and nonsensical. The game itself calls Conquest and Birthright WRONG, so two thirds of the entire game is inconsequential and will most likely be treated as non-canon anyway.

I could go on, but this has been discussed to death - the people who come in now and say "well how about this?" can look up older threads or just browse through this one and probably find their answers there: I can find almost nothing redeemable about the main story other than the premise and the choice itself, but even that is cheapened by the third route.

The story needs to be completely reworked if it is to have any semblance of quality.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Thane

[Taka-kun]

I have to admit that all this shitting over Fates' storyline is really killing my enthusiasm for this game.

There are plenty of things that Fates is good for, but the story is definitely not. You would be better off buying another game, like Xenoblade Chronicles, if you want to immerse yourself into a good plot. Or read a book, srsly, why don't people read more book?

But don't let all the negativity of the story kill Fates for you. Plenty of things have been praised, including Thane, the... what was your title again? Logistics officer?

[Thane]

There are plenty of things that Fates is good for, but the story is definitely not. You would be better off buying another game, like Xenoblade Chronicles, if you want to immerse yourself into a good plot. Or read a book, srsly, why don't people read more book?

But don't let all the negativity of the story kill Fates for you. Plenty of things have been praised, including Thane, the... what was your title again? Logistics officer?

Indeed. Even I have praised the gameplay, several supports and characters - I don't hate the game blindly, and I don't regret my purchase at all, but I've never been more disappointed by a story; it's completely unsalvageable, and any attempt to try and justify the lazy, horrendous, poorly paced, insulting main story is futile. Fortunately, the gameplay is nothing short of superb.

Also, fuck you for not giving me a proper title, I'm gonna go eat some ice cream directly out of the box and cry

By the way, people do read books; I'm reading through the complete collection of Sherlock Holmes stories! Now those are some good stories, and don't forget great movies and other games...has anyone seen 12 Angry Men? 12 jurists debate a seemingly open-and-shut case for an hour and a half in one tiny room and it's the best movie I've ever seen in my life. And if anyone wants a good game with a fantastic story, I'd recommend the Ace Attorney trilogy on 3DS, Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective on DS or iOS store I believe (it's called "the best game no one ever played" by some people) or Persona 4. Just don't buy Fates expecting good writing.

[Yari]

Also, fuck you for not giving me a proper title, I'm gonna go eat some ice cream directly out of the box and cry

By the way, people do read books; I'm reading through the complete collection of Sherlock Holmes stories! Now those are some good stories, and don't forget great movies and other games...has anyone seen 12 Angry Men? 12 jurists debate a seemingly open-and-shut case for an hour and a half in one tiny room and it's the best movie I've ever seen in my life. And if anyone wants a good game with a fantastic story, I'd recommend the Ace Attorney trilogy on 3DS, Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective on DS or iOS store I believe (it's called "the best game no one ever played" by some people) or Persona 4. Just don't buy Fates expecting good writing.

Thane, you are now the president of FEPC inc. I'm still the boss but your opinion is one of the most important of the company.

I love reading too and I'm sure I already read all of the Sherlock Holmes books. And you acknowledged Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective! I love that game! The story made it my favorite game ever!

[nordopolica]

Sorry, but I disagree; Fates has far more problems than just Flubber Garon. The siblings not named Leo and Takumi are painfully underdeveloped, interesting potential subplots are skimmed over (Kamui returns to Nohr and is now able to turn into a dragon; you'd think his family members would at least mention it, but no), the plot is solely moved forward because of contrivances and plot devices, characters' actions and reactions rarely make any sense, Conquest is 3/4 filler and even the the last fourth is a complete and utter mess that feels completely forced and nonsensical. The game itself calls Conquest and Birthright WRONG, so two thirds of the entire game is inconsequential and will most likely be treated as non-canon anyway.

I could go on, but this has been discussed to death - the people who come in now and say "well how about this?" can look up older threads or just browse through this one and probably find their answers there: I can find almost nothing redeemable about the main story other than the premise and the choice itself, but even that is cheapened by the third route.

The story needs to be completely reworked if it is to have any semblance of quality.

Hallelujah!

But yeah, reworking it from the ground up would be best, yeah, but I still think it could have been salvaged had Nohr itself been fixed (Garon + revolution + Kamui's relationship with these) or the Hoshido bias been removed or competently handled. I'm late to the party and this has been discussed to death, yes, but this conversation is one of the more interesting I've observed, seeing what could have been and the efforts of so many to patch it up.

[Alazen]

Flora isn't too bad of a character and is frankly better handled than the royal sisters and Felicia. I still say Hydra is an interesting concept that was shoddily executed. Having a FE focusing on a coup against a government that is both homegrown and legitimate has potential but is better suited for a single game set in a single kingdom. Even Kamui has potential (being foreign no matter which kingdom he sides with, his draconic self, being noted as naive).

I suspect that once again, IS made a narrative that is too big for itself and so the direction became wonky (see Awakening). I would suggest that Fates be written in a way that has reforming or building anew as a theme in every Path. Hoshido has long lacked unity and other issues in pre-Meiji Japan. Nohr is making its mark on the world and as such will clash with other movers and shakers. The world must go into a new era, even if it has to be dragged by the hair.

[Taka-kun]

Indeed. Even I have praised the gameplay, several supports and characters - I don't hate the game blindly, and I don't regret my purchase at all, but I've never been more disappointed by a story; it's completely unsalvageable, and any attempt to try and justify the lazy, horrendous, poorly paced, insulting main story is futile. Fortunately, the gameplay is nothing short of superb.

Also, fuck you for not giving me a proper title, I'm gonna go eat some ice cream directly out of the box and cry

By the way, people do read books; I'm reading through the complete collection of Sherlock Holmes stories! Now those are some good stories, and don't forget great movies and other games...has anyone seen 12 Angry Men? 12 jurists debate a seemingly open-and-shut case for an hour and a half in one tiny room and it's the best movie I've ever seen in my life. And if anyone wants a good game with a fantastic story, I'd recommend the Ace Attorney trilogy on 3DS, Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective on DS or iOS store I believe (it's called "the best game no one ever played" by some people) or Persona 4. Just don't buy Fates expecting good writing.

Yayz, Ghost Trick! Must go back and play that game! Fortunately, I am a habitual book reader so I have no shortage of epic stories. Though none has been as jaw-dropping and confusing as Romance of the Three Kingdoms...

Yeah, Fates is a far cry from what people thought it would be, especially when Nintendo made a big deal of its story. Just play it because it actually has a fun gameplay.

Congratulations on your promotion, president!

[artishe]

I have to admit that all this shitting over Fates' storyline is really killing my enthusiasm for this game.

Well, you are in a topic dedicated to issues with the IF plot. No one's going to mention what the stories did right, and really, they did do some stuff right. Honestly, while I think there's room for improvement, I wouldn't say Nohr's story is really that bad. For me, the good points outweighed the bad ones at least, and I liked it overall. Generally, the people I know who liked it really latched on to the playable cast and didn't come in expecting grey morality/full blown rebellion/anything really except for a sad story. Which Nohr and Hoshido both are. The only other difference I can think is that we all generally found Kamui's importance to the Nohr plot plot relevant instead of player worship.

At the end of the day, perhaps it has to do with what you come in expecting.

[Thane]

Thane, you are now the president of FEPC inc. I'm still the boss but your opinion is one of the most important of the company.

I love reading too and I'm sure I already read all of the Sherlock Holmes books. And you acknowledged Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective! I love that game! The story made it my favorite game ever!

Yay, now I can act smugly towards all of those commoners!

Ghost Trick is amazing, and it's written by the same guy who made Ace Attorney. It says a lot about Mr. Takumi, honestly; both Ghost Trick and the first Ace Attorney game are on my top five video game stories of all time, and while they're both mystery games, the way the story is told is completely different. I'm so glad to hear people know about it!

Hallelujah!

But yeah, reworking it from the ground up would be best, yeah, but I still think it could have been salvaged had Nohr itself been fixed (Garon + revolution + Kamui's relationship with these) or the Hoshido bias been removed or competently handled. I'm late to the party and this has been discussed to death, yes, but this conversation is one of the more interesting I've observed, seeing what could have been and the efforts of so many to patch it up.

I'm not sure it can be patched up, honestly. It would certainly have been better if Conquest actually had a story and if Garon had more than a tablespoon's worth of personality, but there are still so many other things at play here, like Hydra, Touma, Ryouma's willingness to share food since Hoshido has too much which means the "conquer lands for fertile land" angle would have to be reworked, Camilla and Elise being mere peripherals to Kamui and so on. There's just TOO much wrong with the story that if it were to be fixed, it wouldn't be the same anymore; far too many elements would need to be reworked.

Speaking of reworking elements, am I the only one who keeps forgetting Azura exists? Or why she dies when she sings those songs? Or why we should care about her in the slightest when she's an expressionless exposition bot with all he answers whose very existence in Birthright and Conquest sticks out like a sore thumb considering she's basically sitting back and letting the war go on for no real reason?

Yayz, Ghost Trick! Must go back and play that game! Fortunately, I am a habitual book reader so I have no shortage of epic stories. Though none has been as jaw-dropping and confusing as Romance of the Three Kingdoms...

Yeah, Fates is a far cry from what people thought it would be, especially when Nintendo made a big deal of its story. Just play it because it actually has a fun gameplay.

Congratulations on your promotion, president!

Ooh, it's soooo good! I also recommend Ace Attorney and Persona 4.

Did Nintendo hype the story up, or did Intelligent Systems? Honestly, the developers were the ones who chose to only talk about it during their interview with Mr. Iwata, not Nintendo, right? I wonder if they straight up lied to his face or actually thought what they had was anything worth bragging about. Both answers scare me.

Romance of the Three Kingdoms? Sounds like Kamui and Camilla