Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[NekoKnight]

What I would like to see, is Kamui uniting dissatisfied group in Nohr during the conquest of Hoshido. To justify why Kamui would lead an army, have Kamui lead an army to pacify rebellious groups, like the Ice Tribe, while Marx is leading the invasion force, with Kamui linking up later with auxuliary troops. Since the groups have better relations with Kamui than with the Nohrian throne, they would be more inclined to follow Kamui in a rebellion in Nohr in the second half (actually justifying worshipping of Kamui since he actually did something).

About Garon: Simple, make everyone else in Nohr assholes and opportunists as well. Garon may have started as an idealistic man like Marx when he was young, but then grew disillusioned and cyncial as time passed by (not uncommon in fables and history). There is also ongoing debate (which I do not intend to start here) whether certain countries need a tyrannical dictator to keep it together else it will be torn apart by warlords and military groups, so you could justify why Garon is needed in Nohr.

Thanks for the ideas. I'm not sure how much time can be spent during the invasion uniting dissatisfied groups because the war mostly takes place in Hoshido, but I was thinking of Garon giving Kamui some domestic missions while Marx and co. handle the big boy war. After Kamui had proved himself, he would lead and auxiliary force to support Marx's invasion.

[spoiler=Map]

If I recall correctly(playing through Nohr again), the opening battle in the war takes place on the Hoshido plains which would imply Marx's forces crossed the infinite chasm and started moving eastward. I was going to have Kamui do a few missions in Nohr, maybe visiting the ice village, Chevalier and Garou Peak before leading a second invasion force across the sea to attack from the south end. He would later reunite with Marx and Leon's soldiers at Fort Jinya. There are still a lot of factions that need to be accounted for but I'll try to incorporate at least some of them before the war ends so Kamui is making friends at home.

I like the idea of Garon being a jaded and cynical version of Marx after a long reign in a brutal country. All of the villains will be getting greater context for their actions and motivations beyond making Kamui sad, but I'll try to frame Garon especially as being someone who is ruthless for (usually) the right reasons. The turning point will be when his actions become more cruel than pragmatic.

[JupiterKnight]

Muse/Amusia is supposedly its own small nation as well. That's where the Opera House is located.

Maybe they convince the Dancers to work as support for their forces rather than have them executed in a botched Hoshido assassination attempt?

[Thane]

Dragon degeneration has been a thing long before Fates. It's not like Blizzards make someone crazy to justify a boss fight deal. The backstory details we have gotten even points out the dragons in general were suffering from the urges so they discarded their body and became spirits to avoid that fate. Hydra tried to deal with the problem for ages since he was likely the dragon that couldn't become a spirit.

Plus your comment that all the info we got is just from Azura is wrong since he does talk about his past to an extent as well in Invisible History, and we know he at least has some influence on the backstory as the giver of Dragon's Vein and being both the Light/Dark Dragon. We got way more than Grima who just kinda existed was defeated and had an evil cult that was in no way subtle about how evil they are and spends most of his talk about how you can't fight fate or how powerful Grima supposedly is.

He was even benevolent enough to write the poems that foretell his defeat/death and turn it into a song. One that is used to weaken himself in the process.

That is the weakest argument there is. Just doing something out of tradition, especially in a series with a less-than-stellar writing and worldbuilding, simply isn't necessary; Fates' nameless world is a new place that hasn't been seen before in the series, so why would they need to follow the same rules, and why does the story need dragons? The series does not have a rich, cohesive lore with super important questions that need to be answered.

Blizzard is infamous for just making people crazy for the sake of justifying killing their characters; they've outright said they wish they handled a lot of characters like Prince Kael'thas and Illidan Stormrage better, which is even why the latter is yet another WoW character scheduled to come back from the dead.

I outright said Grima and the Grimleal were painfully underdeveloped, so I don't know why you're trying to argue with me on that point. What I will say, however, is that Grima is built up far more than Hydra ever was, and he's always in focus one way or another, be it by talking to Validar and then resurrecting him or by Lucina trying to stop Basilio from dying which would make it easier for him to return; Fates does not know what its central focus is. World-ending villains are very rarely done well in my opinion, but what makes Grima bearable, underdeveloped and bland as he is, is because Awakening never tries to have anything other than a standard story which justifies gameplay and pairings; Fates takes itself far more seriously, with a lot of hype surrounding the branching storylines which were to be different from Awakening. The focus was also supposed to be on family members, the different nations, choosing between loyalty and one's blood, but all that has to take the backseat later to deal with a dragon threatening to destroy the world who also happens to have a deep connection to the avatar, much like Awakening.

As for the songs and other tidbits, it's even less information than a prologue to an RPG from the early 90's, where you had a few paragraphs or a booklet to go on. One would think the DLC would manage to humanize him or give him a reason for being, but that simply does not happen; it just makes the story even more convoluted instead.

[NekoKnight]

Muse/Amusia is supposedly its own small nation as well. That's where the Opera House is located.

Maybe they convince the Dancers to work as support for their forces rather than have them executed in a botched Hoshido assassination attempt?

Is Muse and Amusia the same place? I mean, they sound similar but the game was pretty vague on its world building.

That is the weakest argument there is. Just doing something out of tradition, especially in a series with a less-than-stellar writing and worldbuilding, simply isn't necessary; Fates' nameless world is a new place that hasn't been seen before in the series, so why would they need to follow the same rules, and why does the story need dragons? The series does not have a rich, cohesive lore with super important questions that need to be answered.

Blizzard is infamous for just making people crazy for the sake of justifying killing their characters; they've outright said they wish they handled a lot of characters like Prince Kael'thas and Illidan Stormrage better, which is even why the latter is yet another WoW character scheduled to come back from the dead.

JupiterKnight's point is that dragon degeneration is a common element in the series so it seems silly to use that as a point of criticism. It's not a rule they have to follow, it's just something the writers like, in the same fashion that dark magic (in the GBA games at least) is often described as dangerous and evil. It can be a good theme, although it's underdeveloped in Fates.

And are they seriously planning on resurrecting Illidan? If they wanted to salvage his character, they should have left him dead. Resurrection is one of the laziest and contrived writing tropes, next to prophesies. I can complain about Fates story but WoW will always be worse.

Edited August 30, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Thane]

JupiterKnight's point is that dragon degeneration is a common element in the series so it seems silly to use that as a point of criticism. It's not a rule they have to follow, it's just something the writers like, in the same fashion that dark magic (in the GBA games at least) is often described as dangerous and evil. It can be a good theme, although it's underdeveloped in Fates.

And are they seriously planning on resurrecting Illidan? If they wanted to salvage his character, bringing him back from the dead was the stupidest things to do. Resurrection is one of the laziest and contrived writing tropes next to prophesies.

That doesn't mean anything. A common element in a series that has several different worlds and only a few installments having anything to do with each other is worth diddly squat, especially when it comes to main enemies, and particularly when the game is supposed to be about other things which would've made it so, so much more interesting.

And yes, while Illidan is one of the few characters where coming back can make sense in the context of the absurd lore, it loses its punch since they've brought back so damn many characters. It doesn't help that they've got far too many subplots and character arcs planned for this game that they simply won't have time to do it all; Tyralion and Alleria are scheduled to come back apparently, and fans have been wanting to see them for 11 whole years. One would think they'd make a bigger deal out of it, but apparently not.

By the way, even the box art features Illidan:

[JupiterKnight]

Resurrecting Illidan? After they butchered everything about him in Draenor? Disgusting.

@Thane: I do feel that Invisible History Humanizes Hydra since it shows his heart and how he feels regret and sadness over what has happened and he feels it is totally right to put himself down for the good of everyone regardless of why he went mad. I actually like him more afterwards as a result. He even seemed to give his original self a brief moment of sanity before he eventually died for good and all that remained is the masdness.

Also Fates is suggested to be some sort of alternate timeline where history progress differently at some point, because Chrom does mention Nohr and Hoshido in the Awakening DLC. Though since all the dragons save for the ones degenerated became Manakete history likely took a very different path. Plus time travel creates/sends one to an alternate timeline rather than the one the characters came from since Future Past and the future the Kids come from exists separate from Awakening.

Is Muse and Amusia the same place? I mean, they sound similar but the game was pretty vague on its world building.

JupiterKnight's point is that dragon degeneration is a common element in the series so it seems silly to use that as a point of criticism. It's not a rule they have to follow, it's just something the writers like, in the same fashion that dark magic (in the GBA games at least) is often described as dangerous and evil. It can be a good theme, although it's underdeveloped in Fates.

And are they seriously planning on resurrecting Illidan? If they wanted to salvage his character, they should have left him dead. Resurrection is one of the laziest and contrived writing tropes, next to prophesies. I can complain about Fates story but WoW will always be worse.

I don't know which one is which but one is the name of the small nation and the other is the name of the city where the Opera House is at. We should probably look at the summaries to see which is which.

Also yes that is my point thanks. Fates even introduce some new ideas for how to deal with degeneration like creating songs harnessing the power of dragonstones to weaken the dragon, though at the eventual cost of the users life. Plus that even with a Dragonstone a dragons power can be too strong for it to handle. Wait scratch that I forgot that already applied to Tiki due to her great power.

It seems likely that Azura's pendant is the fragment of Hydra's dragonstone as well.

Edited August 30, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[The DanMan]

That doesn't mean anything. A common element in a series that has several different worlds and only a few installments having anything to do with each other is worth diddly squat, especially when it comes to main enemies, and particularly when the game is supposed to be about other things which would've made it so, so much more interesting.

Nobody's denied that.

The main point was whether or not Anankos is more developed than Grima; Anankos at least has something resembling an origin and backstory; Grima's just there as a demonic being with no backstory and a generic, flat evil cult at his service. JupiterKnight never claimed Anankos was a good antagonist; he simply claimed Anankos was a better one than Grima.

[Skeithwannabe]

Now this isn't exactly a fix per say but more an explanation is that I would make it so Camilla doesn't have just a Kamui obsession but all the sibling's its just that Kamui gets the blunt of it because he came around a time when she lost her Full Blooded Siblings do to the concubines and she latched on to him to fill the void.

[JupiterKnight]

NekoKnight I looked and indeed Muse is the nations name and Amusia the city.

[NekoKnight]

Now this isn't exactly a fix per say but more an explanation is that I would make it so Camilla doesn't have just a Kamui obsession but all the sibling's its just that Kamui gets the blunt of it because he came around a time when she lost her Full Blooded Siblings do to the concubines and she latched on to him to fill the void.

I thought about it but I still doesn't explain why Leon and Marx couldn't be surrogates for that attention. Maybe Leon was too young and Marx too busy? In my rewrite, she's going to latch onto Kamui (although not as obsessively) because s/he is a stable person beyond the power squabbles in Nohr (if only because as a foreigner, he can't take the throne) and someone she'll never have to fight...unless Kamui sides with Hoshido.

NekoKnight I looked and indeed Muse is the nations name and Amusia the city.

Thanks. I seem to recall there being two places renown for their art but maybe it was talking about Amusia with its opera house and Muse as a whole.

[Thane]

Resurrecting Illidan? After they butchered everything about him in Draenor? Disgusting.

@Thane: I do feel that Invisible History Humanizes Hydra since it shows his heart and how he feels regret and sadness over what has happened and he feels it is totally right to put himself down for the good of everyone regardless of why he went mad. I actually like him more afterwards as a result. He even seemed to give his original self a brief moment of sanity before he eventually died for good and all that remained is the masdness.

Also Fates is suggested to be some sort of alternate timeline where history progress differently at some point, because Chrom does mention Nohr and Hoshido in the Awakening DLC. Though since all the dragons save for the ones degenerated became Manakete history likely took a very different path. Plus time travel creates/sends one to an alternate timeline rather than the one the characters came from since Future Past and the future the Kids come from exists separate from Awakening.

Yeah, they messed up the lore so bad in Burning Crusade. I loved almost everything about that expansion back in the day, but damn was I confused about going to Outland before Northrend and killing Illidan for no real reason. He was a tyrant in another world but...so what? Arthas was up doing who knows what in the meantime. Ah well, I guess their experiences in TBC allowed them to make Wrath of the Lich King so damn awesome...aside from some stupid lore decisions again. I'm starting to see a trend here.

A madness that which happened for no real reason. I simply can't find it sad at all because it's so poorly written, and we're given no reason to like anything about him anyway.

Chrom mentions every Fire Emblem universe in DLC in Awakening as well, calling them "(Insert world here) Sagas", so I don't see your point. As for the timeline nonsense, it is just a lazy excuse by writers in order to make every answer canon. However, the fact of the matter remains that the game itself calls the other two choices wrong, meaning that the third path is the de facto correct path.

The more I talk about this, the more depressed I get. What the hell happened during the story development of Fates has become my number one gaming mystery. Maybe one day "Did You Know Gaming" will tell us all about it.

Nobody's denied that.

The main point was whether or not Anankos is more developed than Grima; Anankos at least has something resembling an origin and backstory; Grima's just there as a demonic being with no backstory and a generic, flat evil cult at his service. JupiterKnight never claimed Anankos was a good antagonist; he simply claimed Anankos was a better one than Grima.

I know. And I argue that, aside from his role in the game going against absolutely everything the story set out to do, his backstory is inconsequential and so pathetic that it really doesn't matter, and even then Grima has more build-up than Hydra.

Once again, I don't like Grima either, but they did more with him than they ever did with Hydra, and that's really sad.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Thane

[JupiterKnight]

You mean Timeline. Timeloop would imply that everything is in a loop and that history plays out the same regardless.

I actually find Hydra more imposing because the story has to rely on the Risen for most of Awakening and the one time Grima ever displays a threatening power or possibly come off as dangerous is just before the final battle and then it's undone by friendship and Naga. He doesn't even time travel using his own power and instead relies on the portal Naga opened up for Lucina and the kids. Heck I felt more imposing by Hydra regaining some of his lost power to create a worm/blackhole that sucks up one of the giant floating islands in the background and most of the palace before the final battle.

Though that ties into the other problem of how Hydra's Heart can be so dang powerful while Grima well just doesn't come off as Naga's equal or opposite.

I'm wondering if we can't make some sort of compromise.

[Thane]

You mean Timeline. Timeloop would imply that everything is in a loop and that history plays out the same regardless.

I actually find Hydra more imposing because the story has to rely on the Risen for most of Awakening and the one time Grima ever displays a threatening power or possibly come off as dangerous is just before the final battle and then it's undone by friendship and Naga. He doesn't even time travel using his own power and instead relies on the portal Naga opened up for Lucina and the kids. Heck I felt more imposing by Hydra regaining some of his lost power to create a worm/blackhole that sucks up one of the giant floating islands in the background and most of the palace before the final battle.

Though that ties into the other problem of how Hydra's Heart can be so dang powerful while Grima well just doesn't come off as Naga's equal or opposite.

I'm wondering if we can't make some sort of compromise.

Aye, sorry about that. Regardless, what I said is still true, at least from the stories I've read, although admittedly I'm not that into time travel stuff. Just saying that "every choice happened" is just an attempt to please everyone.

But...that's exactly what happens to Hydra as well. He's defeated by a friendship speech when all seems lost, and I was still utterly in shock after how poorly they handled Garon that I was numb to anything else going on. It's impossible to pinpoint just one scene that made me realize that this story is one of the worst I've ever experienced, but Garon getting uncerimoniously eaten after having done nothing during that route is definitely a strong contender.

How about we just fuck the dragons next game, the 15:th in the series which is an important milestone. How about the writers not biting off more than they can chew, and instead focus on writing a coherent narrative that isn't reliant on exposition bots, poor plot devices and villains without personality. That joke idea of it taking place on Mars would've been better than this, hell almost anything would be at this point.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Thane

[JupiterKnight]

Ah but Hydra at least tried to plan for his own death and there were prophecies about how the Yatogami would become the Fire Emblem and the like. He even wrote the prophecies that became Azura's song. So his own inevitable death was at least partly planned ahead by himself, while Grima has to rely on luck and everyone being suckers to get his "Fate" to be written.

And Hydra can outright make his minions disappear because they're invisible oooh spooky! Invisible Sumeragi killed someone in the actual story, while all deaths at the hands of Risen happen offscreen or in Future Past and failure was always inevitable for them. It's actually kind of sad.

I think that if there is a next game the dragon should already be dead and the world is just dealing with the fallout of their victory over it. Nations might even go to war depending on how badly it devastated which nation, but sadly knowing IS they'll have some evil cult waiting to revive the dragon.

Plus dragons are a part of the series. There's been dragons or dragon influence in every game at some point. It can't be helped when it's part of the franchise.

[Damosel]

The Jugdral games have no present dragons (unless you count the meat puppeting done by Forsetti and Loptyr) and though they're old games, they get a lot of infighting and politics into the conflict and plot. Though there's still the Holy Weapons and Holy Blood which are dragon-induced and key to the plot, though it's mostly humans beign awful driving all the war.

Though Tellius and Elibe probably both have the best not-god examples of dragons, where they're just another player in the drama rather then the sole source of all the world's sorrows.

As for villians in Fates itself, I find it interesting that there is an actual Chapter in the Hoshido route where you get an early try to kill Garon:

Anonymous asked:

Chapter 12 of Hoshido (the escape one at the theatre) has Garon as it's boss right? Is it even remotely possible to beat him?

Well, by this point in the game you have access to four Master Seals, so I imagine that if you promoted the right units and ground them up to 20/20, sure.

Under normal circumstances? Hell no, the dude has 29 defense and 26 resistance and the strongest attacks I can muster at this point are at about 26 attack. Maybe 33ish if I made an effort, but then his counterattack would kill me dead.

source

It's too bad they don't utilize this overpowered on-map Garon more, like FE9 did for the Black Knight. I know this doesn't address the Hyrda issue, but he's freakin' hiding in extradimensional monster wrold. Kinda hard to theorize how to bring him out when he's pruposefully hidden in DLC.

Also, I didn't realize it until you said it that the IK is basically a special snowflake kingdom. Why does it even exist it only fucks over everything else.

Touma is incredibly special-snowflakey. I mean two whole route in the game we have NO IDEA that it exsists! I don't even know if now just a weird place full of loating islands and monsters or if an actual kingdom with people/manakete live there. The names characters from Touma though, I really don't like how lynchpin they are for the plot- considering we could've achieved the almost exact same result if Shenmei had been from Nohr and Mikoto from Hoshido.

Edit: And I nearly forget, Mikoto anti-hostility force field. What kind of lazy excuse for peace is THAT.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Damosel

[Sunwoo]

Yeah, I'm still confused about the forcefield. Where was it said that she'd put it up anyway? I'd completely missed it due to my lack of knowledge in Japanese.

[Thane]

Ah but Hydra at least tried to plan for his own death and there were prophecies about how the Yatogami would become the Fire Emblem and the like. He even wrote the prophecies that became Azura's song. So his own inevitable death was at least partly planned ahead by himself, while Grima has to rely on luck and everyone being suckers to get his "Fate" to be written.

And Hydra can outright make his minions disappear because they're invisible oooh spooky! Invisible Sumeragi killed someone in the actual story, while all deaths at the hands of Risen happen offscreen or in Future Past and failure was always inevitable for them. It's actually kind of sad.

I think that if there is a next game the dragon should already be dead and the world is just dealing with the fallout of their victory over it. Nations might even go to war depending on how badly it devastated which nation, but sadly knowing IS they'll have some evil cult waiting to revive the dragon.

Plus dragons are a part of the series. There's been dragons or dragon influence in every game at some point. It can't be helped when it's part of the franchise.

You keep using the same arguments without even bothering to read my replies, so I figure we should just stop discussing this and agree to disagree.

The Jugdral games have no present dragons (unless you count the meat puppeting done by Forsetti and Loptyr) and though they're old games, they get a lot of infighting and politics into the conflict and plot. Though there's still the Holy Weapons and Holy Blood which are dragon-induced and key to the plot, though it's mostly humans beign awful driving all the war.

Though Tellius and Elibe probably both have the best not-god examples of dragons, where they're just another player in the drama rather then the sole source of all the world's sorrows.

As for villians in Fates itself, I find it interesting that there is an actual Chapter in the Hoshido route where you get an early try to kill Garon:

I've never played Fire Emblem one to six, so I'm afraid I can't offer any thoughts on the matter. However, I do know that Blazing Sword's story is about as awful as Fates, and Tellius is most definitely not above using painful plot devices and uninteresting villains either, but hey, that's just my opinion. But it is like you say, in Tellius motives tend to have more of an impact on the story, rather than a cheap "oh hey, this one dude is behind absolutely every single prominent story problem, so let's kill him and then hold our hands and dance on an open field listening to 'happy together'".

The game actively tells you not to fight. I appreciate it as well though, but it's not exactly any good writing, but rather a gameplay element, and the gameplay is bloody amazing.

Speaking of which, that's the map in Conquest where Azura dresses up in her dark dress...apparently it's supposed to conceal her identity. Hip length teal hair must be incredibly common in that world.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Thane

[JupiterKnight]

They mention the barrier in chapter 4 or 5 if I recall right.

@Damosel: Forseti and Loptyr would fall under dragon influence.

And I agree that Tellius did a good job in not having dragons be the source of the problems. Even the Goddesses actions were the product of the Laguz and Beorc fighting each other.

@Thane: That's fine. I was kinda figuring we might not agree.

Edited August 30, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Damosel]

There's an arch in FE6's story that displays inner conflict within a kingdom and the negative impact of their expansionism well. Roy certainly reacts to it far more than Chrom ever blinked at any war crimes. But if you simply want to disregard the entire story as shit, that's your perrogative.

The thing about Loptyr and Forsetti in FE4-
The former is not brought about by his own power, the cultists that'd faced generations of persecution for being descended from his original followers resurrected that dragon-god by their own efforts and power. While Manfroy might seem TOO capable in the way he's able to toss the entire continent into convient chaos, Chapters 1-5 show the already existing corrupt rulers and internal conflict that is simply made worse for the Cult's ends. Manfroy and the Cult are more in power because they're able to hold Alvis' Lopt blood over his head, and since he's regent emporer, they're able to move freely until the Lopt Tome is given to Julius and he becomes possessed. Loptyr in Julius isn't really to blame for all of Jugdral's problems, rather than a manifestation of the past come to haunt them and have a mad ruler on the throne which let the cult run wild and strike back at their previous tormentors.
The latter is in reaction to the Lopt Cult gaining power and Jugdral in general being plunged into Chaos. Compared to Naga, Forsetti seems very proactive in that he's running around checking on Gen2 and making sure the pieces for the rebellion are in place. But he never supercharges any characters- and even Julia, who he hands over, can be killed int he last chapter thus you lose the OP Tome of Naga to oneshot the final boss with.

Personally I find it to be a different sort of dragon interference than Awakening and Fates display.

So what kind of "internal reform" would you guys like to see in a rewritten Nohr route? [...] Should there be a focus of recruiting/uniting dissatisfied groups? Should it be clandestinely killing off baby-eaters like Ganz and Macbeth? This would cover around 9 chapters so I can't put too much on Kamui's plate.

Another question would be of Garon's development. He's the final antagonist but I'd like a believable descent from kind father who makes hard choices for his country to someone whom even his own children agree must be disposed of.

Personally I'd love to see that fact that Nohr isn't 100% assholes. Sure you've got the royal sibs and retainers, but there has to be SOME starry eyed idealist or convertly well-intentioned nobles somewhere. One of my least favorite things in the game is the "only criminal and tyrants" angle for Nohr vs. "only good people live here" angle for Hoshido. You probably don't want too many rabbit holes, but it'd be nice if Kamui could find some outside-of-family allies in Nohr who'd like to see change for the better. Also there's NO WAY Ganz and MacBeth haven't made other enemies within Nohr's court, they're just too awful.

As for Garon, paranoia is also a good tool for why people think he must be deposed. Skyrocketing belligerence and distrust does not earn a ruler any favors, especially since it tends to be turned onto those closest to them in the end.

Yeah, the part of Mikoto being in Hoshido at the same time as Ikona feels so damn weird, but it's only implied via Sakura's A-rank support in which she states that she was "just born" (according to this translation) and that can interpreted in many number of ways. Like she was born the day before, or the month before, or the year before. Like everything else, this is pretty ambigious.

The war must have lasted for a really long time, since back in the first trailer, a portrait behind Garon, watching Aqua dance, shows Nohr, in a complete different (and less evil) motif on their armor, fighting Hoshidans. So there has to have been at least one war before the game's events. The reason is never stated, but I interpret as Nohr having this conquest economy like the Roman Empire. Maybe Nohr just went up to Hoshido and said: "Join us or die" and naturally, Hoshido refused, leading to years of animosity, another reason why Hoshido might have been inclined to not help Nohr at all, even if they asked. I can still indulge in my logic since I haven't played the game yet.

Even if we take the "Sakura was born a year ago" for the time in with Mikoto came to Hoshido, I'm still giving bigamist Sumeragi the side-eye.

True with the portrait, and well personally I like the long-war meta anyway. Although on the Roman theory- Hoshido's so FAR AWAY. Wouldn't they would've had to try and invade through the mountains where the fire tribe lives? And if so why has the Fire Tribe only recently allied with Hoshido/why hadn't they been conquered as a stepping stone in the past? Not to say it can't happen, it's just the game setting has a tone of obstacles between Nohr and Hoshido so they really have to go out of their way to poke at each other.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Damosel

[NekoKnight]

Personally I'd love to see that fact that Nohr isn't 100% assholes. Sure you've got the royal sibs and retainers, but there has to be SOME starry eyed idealist or convertly well-intentioned nobles somewhere. One of my least favorite things in the game is the "only criminal and tyrants" angle for Nohr vs. "only good people live here" angle for Hoshido. You probably don't want too many rabbit holes, but it'd be nice if Kamui could find some outside-of-family allies in Nohr who'd like to see change for the better. Also there's NO WAY Ganz and MacBeth haven't made other enemies within Nohr's court, they're just too awful.

As for Garon, paranoia is also a good tool for why people think he must be deposed. Skyrocketing belligerence and distrust does not earn a ruler any favors, especially since it tends to be turned onto those closest to them in the end.

I found the Nohr leadership to be unusually small. Where are all the other lords and court members who make up the realm? You'd think Nohr was ruled exclusively by the counsel of three meanies; Garon, Macbeth and Ganz. I plan on introducing some other minor Nohrians to pad out the (reasonable) leadership. Someone has to run the show while the three meanies are busy kicking puppies.

[Damosel]

I found the Nohr leadership to be unusually small. Where are all the other lords and court members who make up the realm? You'd think Nohr was ruled exclusively by the counsel of three meanies; Garon, Macbeth and Ganz. I plan on introducing some other minor Nohrians to pad out the (reasonable) leadership. Someone has to run the show while the three meanies are busy kicking puppies.

This is true, the game really doesn't show much of the ruling structure/nobility beyond Garon, his goons, and the sibs. This character with a portrait, Daniela, is said to be a general who watches the border. Dunno if military positions are connected to landed noble titles (like ye olde Europe) or not, but it's a canon face and name. Unfortunately the rest of the Nohr paralogue capturables are criminals or one sort or another rather than officials. The Minor Nobility sound like a good move, espcialy considering how vast Nohr and its tributaries are- there's no way Garon can micro manage everything.

[JupiterKnight]

Silas, Pieri, and Joker are the only playable units that come from a noble family if I recall. There's one mentioned in Belkas support with Saizou, but they are mentioned to have been killed by Saizou.

A part of this seems to stem from the Royals not caring about a persons origins when it comes to serving them on Nohr.

[Sunwoo]

I think something important to remember is that realistically, people are not 100% bad. People can be corrupt and power hungry, but not be kicking puppies in their spare time. To use an existing character as an example … take Iago. He's an asshole. There is really nothing else to it in the game. you could still have him as your "obstacle in Nohr path" without making him cartoonishly evil. Maybe he's extremely loyal to Garon in the way Selena was loyal to Vigarde. Maybe the old Garon gave him reason to do so … whatever that reason may be. Maybe his hatred/racism/whatever towards Hoshidans overrides his good judgment. This is sadly not uncommon in real life. I don't know.

Nohr doesn't have to be full of assholes to still have people who do bad things in its ruling circles. Like how Hoshido doesn't have to be pure and perfect while still maintaining an outwardly stable and benevolent appearance.

[Alazen]

Alright, which direction should we take the Eastern lands?

Should we depict Hoshido more akin to Sengoku Japan (a lack of centralized state authority)? Edo Japan (One faction out of an era of carnage has solidified control away from all opposition)? Or another option?

Edited August 31, 2015 by Alazen

[NekoKnight]

Alright, which direction should we take the Eastern lands?

Should we depict Hoshido more akin to Sengoku Japan (a lack of centralized state authority)? Edo Japan (One faction out of an era of carnage has solidified control away from all opposition)? Or another option?

"Nohr = Chaotic, Ruthless, Hoshido = Stable, Peaceful" is one of the few things that doesn't need to be changed so Edo Japan seems the most fitting. The question is how Hoshido maintains that peace and stability. The popular suggestions seem to be Hoshido as an isolationist, possibly racist or having an iron-fisted rule over their own people.

Personally, I'd like these things in addition to more infighting and political scheming. Mikoto's sudden death (and perhaps her rule even before) would probably led to some power-hungry people to plot to take over the throne. These internal squabbles could be part of the reason why resource poor Nohr is able to get so far in the war against them.