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Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)


Yari
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Speaking of Kamui obsession, Thor Odinson/Lumi found this:

http://jokerthebutler.tumblr.com/post/127743340473/part-of-conversation-between-ryouma-crimson

Game, can we stop obsessing over Kamui now please

Apparently, Kamui was showing "kingly" qualities from a young age, enough to make Ryoma jealous. Kamui must have been an exceptional 4 year old.

Nope, no player worship here.

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Speaking of Kamui obsession, Thor Odinson/Lumi found this:

http://jokerthebutler.tumblr.com/post/127743340473/part-of-conversation-between-ryouma-crimson

Game, can we stop obsessing over Kamui now please

Ah yes, I remember reading this, but now that the distance the Japanese language barrier granted me has been torn down, there's only one thing left to do:

11223488_840509212723363_311624429487814

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Honestly, this doesn't bother me at all.

There are games with way worse player worshipping than Fates. WAY worse.

Seriously, the fact that there's Takumi, a character who doesn't like Kamui, but is still a decent person, is already impressive enough, when there are games where they don't dare make a character dislike the player.

And at least they justify the loyalty to Kamui, with things like "you're my family" or "you're saved my life", some games don't even do that, they're like "I just met you, but I love you".

Now that I think about it, this is not exclusive to games with player avatars or self-insert characters. Take Radiant Dawn, for example, everyone loves Ike, and Micaiah is villified for even daring to dislike him, even thought she has a very good reason to.

It seems to me that in any sort of Japanese Media, be it manga, anime or games, it's very common for entire casts of characters to focus and worship a singular character.

It's actulally interesting, that so many mangas, animes and games have worlds that revolve entirely around one character and have everyone raving about how amazing the main character is. Really, there are so many examples, it makes wonder if I missing something about the Japanese society.

But anyway, I know I'm rambling, my point is , that the player worshipping in Fire Emblem Fates is really nothing new, so it's not really anything shocking.

Edited by Water Mage
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Perhaps they should have mentioned his feelings in the route where you oppose him. It's hinted that he is conflicted but you don't really hear about his reasoning for supporting Garon. It might be reasonable if Garon wasn't such a card-carrying villain, laughing insanely and openly talking about how he wants to make Kamui suffer.

You can't put all the motivations of major characters in optional conversations.

I thought it was said outright that he was a different person after Kamui left on the Nohr route. Between that and his dialogue with her, his motivation in the Hoshido route feels a lot more about her and also his personal issues with betrayal (which you see brought up in every route). Not that his same desire to save his father isn't there (and he asks Kamui to save him), but he's not talking about lopping people's heads from their shoulders or whatever if she stays.

He's far more reticent on the Nohr route, but between his actions on the very first chapter of the Nohr route, Kamui being dangled over his head, and how it all lines up with what we get in the main plot from Leon and Camilla, Kamui felt like his Nohr route motivation + saving his father.

Unlike the Hoshidans (who are blatantly stated to be inherently good people), the Nohrians... just aren't. I mean, they try or whatever, but at the end of the day, they're all (except for maybe Elise) grey morality characters that end up prioritizing their own issues over the greater good. They aren't supporting Garon because they believe in his cause at all, nor is that ever implied to be the case, but they aren't rebelling against him either, whether because of their true motivation for supporting him, fear of death, fear of someone else's death etc. At the end of the day, the Hoshidan lives aren't their main priority. I kinda thought it left them more interesting than the Hoshidans actually... They felt more human than the generic good guy stuff FE usually employs. I mean... we get a prince who actually struggles with his position/duty/waging war, and a main lord who, even if she's just as naive as any other series lord, actually faces that naivety as a major issue. As opposed to someone like Roy/Eliwood/Chrom.

And I kinda felt hinting about motivations was more in line with his character than any of the other royals. Everyone else gets dialogue that blatantly states at least one reason for following Garon on the Nohr route, but they don't have the same issues with repression and internal struggle he's got going on. For that matter, the others talk about themselves much easier in their own supports, as opposed to Marx who gets 2 that directly address his issues, and he only actually talks about himself in one of them. Even in his supports, he's still guarded about his motivations, which I thought justified his being guarded in the Nohr main plot.

But yeah, Marx was actually the character I found most tragic, given that he's shown to be this kid who was much... softer perhaps? but then his father + his society just kinda screwed him up. Either way, though, all his supports added were some more tragedy to his situation. You can still work out his surface issues in the main plot, even if you don't have the root motivation for his motivations.

Edited by artishe
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Probably because unlike Flora, who's a boss, killing Saizou/Kagerou is actually optional supposing that Kamui's powerful enough to finish Ryoma first. *shrug*

On the topic of the narrative's obsession with the protagonist/avatar/player, I'm actually quite disturbed by the sheer amount of people who are more than willing to die or even commit suicide for/because of Kamui in this game, especially for some that's their only purpose of existing in the story (Lilith). A simple list: Mikoto (died protecting Kamui), Suzukaze (died saving Kamui), Lilith (died protecting Kamui twice), Elise (died protecting Kamui), Ryoma (offs himself so Kamui don't have to do that), Flora (burns herself alive because to her betraying Kamui is an "unforgivable sin"), Izana (dies to deliver a prophecy, also to make Takumi believes in Kamui), Rainbow Sage (dies to forge Kamui's sword), Crimson (also died to protect Kamui IIRC).

I know the devs are trying to make us "feel bad", but this is way too over-the-top. Some death scenes aren't even properly executed.

To be honest the only three I don't have a problem with is Mikoto, Lilith, and Flora. Those two because their Kamui's mom/sister and Flora because they were sort of a family in that Fortress where all the misfits were holed up, but her issues due to how her dad raised her made her value the clan to the point of even her own life and her sister is a clutzy idiot.

@artishe: Yeah I have to agree. I think that's part of why I enjoy Nohr's characters over Hoshidos.

Edited by JupiterKnight
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Well, it is good to know that even the japanese fandom think the story is bad. Make us feel less 'only sane man'.

Though I believe that calling it 'shit-game' is too much, I mean, the story is shit, but not the rest.

Speaking of Kamui obsession, Thor Odinson/Lumi found this:

http://jokerthebutler.tumblr.com/post/127743340473/part-of-conversation-between-ryouma-crimson

Game, can we stop obsessing over Kamui now please

To be fair, it's the invisible path, which is the most insulting crapiest of crap. Not much of a consolation but still.

11223488_840509212723363_311624429487814

Does it work ? :p

Edited by B.Leu
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And I definitely agree some of the deaths are faaaar more emotionally impactful and/or make more sense than others. Mikoto's had to happen for the plot. Flora, Marx, Elise, and Ryouma get me every time, and Crimson's death on the Nohr route is rather impactful as well. The Rainbow Sage... I want to say he knows Kamui's going to resolve the war though, doesn't he? I thought that was his deal because I remember thinking that he was justified, too.

All the deaths are going to hit people different amounts, too, depending on whether or nor you like the character.

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Honestly, this doesn't bother me at all.

There are games with way worse player worshipping than Fates. WAY worse.

Seriously, the fact that there's Takumi, a character who doesn't like Kamui, but is still a decent person, is already impressive enough, when there are games where they don't dare make a character dislike the player.

And at least they justify the loyalty to Kamui, with things like "you're my family" or "you're saved my life", some games don't even do that, they're like "I just met you, but I love you".

Now that I think about it, this is not exclusive to games with player avatars or self-insert characters. Take Radiant Dawn, for example, everyone loves Ike, and Micaiah is villified for even daring to dislike him, even thought she has a very good reason to.

It seems to me that in any sort of Japanese Media, be it manga, anime or games, it's very common for entire casts of characters to focus and worship a singular character.

It's actulally interesting, that so many mangas, animes and games have worlds that revolve entirely around one character and have everyone raving about how amazing the main character is. Really, there are so many examples, it makes wonder if I missing something about the Japanese society.

But anyway, I know I'm rambling, my point is , that the player worshipping in Fire Emblem Fates is really nothing new, so it's not really anything shocking.

I don't really agree with the Radiant Dawn example as Micaiah's dislike of Ike is pretty much just in a throwaway line in Part 1 and a small tidbit in Part 4, it's never given enough attention to be developed as a reason she's vilified. It's especially not to the extent of Takumi, whose major reason for being turned into a villain is pretty much because of his dislike of Kamui (even though it makes a lot of sense in Nohr).

Either way, while it is true that this is an aspect that shows up in media, that doesn't mean it was handled well here nor does it being handled worse in other examples write off the problems that popped up with it in Fates. The thing with player worship in Fates is that it's done to an extent that it starts to negatively affect the plot, and Takumi is just one example of that. S/He takes focus from characters that direly need that focus, characters have their entire personality warp around them such as with Camilla, and the story never gives enough breathing room for other aspects of the world to really be developed outside of them. It's becomes an issue because the story becomes way too centered around the main character to be healthy, and that does cause the story to be dragged down. So even if it's done in other stories, I don't think we should write off the problems that it did cause in this one.

Edited by Medeus
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I mean... we get a prince who actually struggles with his position/duty/waging war, and a main lord who, even if she's just as naive as any other series lord, actually faces that naivety as a major issue. As opposed to someone like Roy/Eliwood/Chrom.

The narrative repeatedly goes out of its way to twist itself so that Kamui will be vindicated or excused no matter how flawed he supposedly is. That's not how you do it.

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Mmmm, maybe that's what I was thinking of with the Rainbow Sage. At any rate he just felt like generic wise elder death so I may have just written him away as that.

And Camilla's Kamui issues I actually thought were surprisingly well done. Unlike Tharja, she's got a whole back story for it that extends to her protectiveness of her siblings and Belka/Luna/Hinoka (if you get that A) as well.

Barring the Nohrian royalty and Ryouma + Hinoka, most other characters had far weaker explanations though.

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The narrative repeatedly goes out of its way to twist itself so that Kamui will be vindicated or excused no matter how flawed he supposedly is. That's not how you do it.

I guess I just didn't read it like that then? I mean... everyone in that Chevalier skirmish, fighters, innocents, Crimson, all end up dead because Kamui rather naively doesn't understand what Ganz is there to do and doesn't think to save anyone from him. Camilla, the non-naive one, understands what's about to go down, but Kamui is subsequently shocked when it happens. You've even got Leon for comparison a few chapters later, who lies about the whole dancer mess to save lives. Kamui's naivety directly causes deaths. And we get to see that fallout in game. She doesn't kill many people herself, but her naivety means that a lot more people die that she could've saved. She even works out that she needs to tone down her naivety and lie to Garon/work within the system after her convo with Leon.

Edited by artishe
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I don't really agree with the Radiant Dawn example as Micaiah's dislike of Ike is pretty much just in a throwaway line in Part 1 and a small tidbit in Part 4, it's never given enough attention to be developed as a reason she's vilified. It's especially not to the extent of Takumi, whose major reason for being turned into a villain is pretty much because of his dislike of Kamui (even though it makes a lot of sense in Nohr).

Either way, while it is true that this is an aspect that shows up in media, that doesn't mean it was handled well here nor does it being handled worse in other examples write off the problems that popped up with it in Fates. The thing with player worship in Fates is that it's done to an extent that it starts to negatively affect the plot, and Takumi is just one example of that. S/He takes focus from characters that direly need that focus, characters have their entire personality warp around them such as with Camilla, and the story never gives enough breathing room for other aspects of the world to really be developed outside of them. It's becomes an issue because the story becomes way too centered around the main character to be healthy, and that does cause the story to be dragged down. So even if it's done in other stories, I don't think we should write off the problems that it did cause in this one.

I never said that we should write off the problems, my problem is that the complaints here are giving me the impression that people here are thinking that player worshiping or any other problem that Fate's story has, never happens in other games, or it's issues are the worst of the worst when compared to any other media.

It seems to me that complaing about Fate's story is becoming popular here at Serenes, and that's never a good thing.

When hating something becomes popular, other people start hating it too, simply because it's popular to hate it, instead of having a valid complaint.

Because of that, people start nitpicking at every little detail, and so any of the real problems it had in the first place starts getting ignored, simply because they're having too much fun complaing.

In fact, I've noticed that people here are having way too much fun with complaining about Fates's story, which again it's not a good thing, as it spreads negativity in the fandom, and a fandom with too much negativity is never a good thing, any person who spent enough time on the internet knows that.

People are free to dislike anything they want, however when you start having fun disliking something, you start forgetting why you disliked it in the first place, and hurts the chances of it improving, which is what you wanted in the first place.

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It's not like everybody who posted in this thread would deny that Fates' narrative or setting ever had potential. Really, Fates has the Naruto Problem in that it has the foundations to be a noticeably stronger setting with a noticeably stronger narrative (which in Naruto's case would have been up to Zabuza's arc) but squanders it by (among all other issues) fixating so much on a underwhelming (at best) core of the cast. I myself have advocated that Hydra had potential that was misused (see the Darth Vader Twist).

Edited by Alazen
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I never said that we should write off the problems, my problem is that the complaints here are giving me the impression that people here are thinking that player worshiping or any other problem that Fate's story has, never happens in other games, or it's issues are the worst of the worst when compared to any other media.

It seems to me that complaing about Fate's story is becoming popular here at Serenes, and that's never a good thing.

When hating something becomes popular, other people start hating it too, simply because it's popular to hate it, instead of having a valid complaint.

Because of that, people start nitpicking at every little detail, and so any of the real problems it had in the first place starts getting ignored, simply because they're having too much fun complaing.

In fact, I've noticed that people here are having way too much fun with complaining about Fates's story, which again it's not a good thing, as it spreads negativity in the fandom, and a fandom with too much negativity is never a good thing, any person who spent enough time on the internet knows that.

People are free to dislike anything they want, however when you start having fun disliking something, you start forgetting why you disliked it in the first place, and hurts the chances of it improving, which is what you wanted in the first place.

Hey now, we may be snarky and cynical but it goes along with valid criticism and a discussion of the plot. If it seems like we're having "fun" criticizing the plot, it's because to be completely brutal without even a hint of wit would be too negative. Accepting mediocrity (and for Fates' squandered potential, that's a compliment) isn't going to help us get better stories either. I think it's pretty dismissive to imply the plot criticisms are invalid, just because it's now "popular" to negatively regard the plot.

If you want to look at things in a more positive light, you have a game that made people so strongly WANT to like it that they are still discussing it after 36 pages. It has inspired several people to write their own stories and think about what makes a good story and game. I wouldn't want to hang out here if it was just pissing and moaning.

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Speaking of Kamui obsession, Thor Odinson/Lumi found this:

http://jokerthebutler.tumblr.com/post/127743340473/part-of-conversation-between-ryouma-crimson

Game, can we stop obsessing over Kamui now please

...

The more and more I hear and read about this, the more and more I start to think the story's saving grace is that it's a decent comedy.

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It's not like everybody who posted in this thread would deny that Fates' narrative or setting ever had potential. Really, Fates has the Naruto Problem in that it has the foundations to be a noticeably stronger setting with a noticeably stronger narrative (which in Naruto's case would have been up to Zabuza's arc) but squanders it by (among all other issues) fixating so much on a underwhelming (at best) core of the cast. I myself have advocated that Hydra had potential that was misused (see the Darth Vader Twist).

I'll probably be one of the very few people in this thread that has no problem with how Hydra was handled. At most I take issue with Slime Garon and the Curse that helps keep him invisible from sight and mind being too overpowered.

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Hey now, we may be snarky and cynical but it goes along with valid criticism and a discussion of the plot. If it seems like we're having "fun" criticizing the plot, it's because to be completely brutal without even a hint of wit would be too negative. Accepting mediocrity (and for Fates' squandered potential, that's a compliment) isn't going to help us get better stories either. I think it's pretty dismissive to imply the plot criticisms are invalid, just because it's now "popular" to negatively regard the plot.

If you want to look at things in a more positive light, you have a game that made people so strongly WANT to like it that they are still discussing it after 36 pages. It has inspired several people to write their own stories and think about what makes a good story and game. I wouldn't want to hang out here if it was just pissing and moaning.

I'm not accepting mediocrity, nor am I saying to dismiss any of the plot's problems. There are many valid critcisms. I know people wanted to like the game's story.

What I was trying to say is being too negative can affect the fandom in many ways, for example, a newcomer to the series may see all the veterans complaining about the game, and already assume the game is bad, without even playing the game, and judging it by themselves.

Edited by Water Mage
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I'm not accepting mediocrity, nor am I saying to dismiss any of the plot's problems. There are many valid critcisms. I know people wanted to like the game's story.

What I was trying to say is being too negative can affect the fandom in many ways, for example, a newcomer to the series may see all the veterans complaining about the game, and already assume the game is bad, without even playing the game, and judging it by themselves.

Well, ask most people (even here) and they will tell you Fates has pretty awesome gameplay, so it's not like we have nothing good to say.

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Well, ask most people (even here) and they will tell you Fates has pretty awesome gameplay, so it's not like we have nothing good to say.

I know, but even in threads about the gameplay, I've seen people complain about the story, which made made wonder why people seemed to prefer complaining about the story rather than talking about the gameplay. I mean, I know this thread is to talk about how fix Fate's story, but I was just wondering.

But then again,I went overboard, so I apologise for that.

And I've even forgotten the point of my previous comment, which was to talk about that Fates's story is just another example of how in japanese fiction it's seems popular to make worlds relvolve around one character and have many others characters rave about how amazing that singular character is.

I was just wondering why that sort of thing is so common in japanese fiction.

Edited by Water Mage
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This thread is after all about how to fix Fates's story. Even if the original purpose is gone (suppleanting Yari with ideas) this topic is still about the flaws of the story and how to potentially fix it, which some have been helpful to give some various suggestions, for benefit of somebody at least. There is no justifying Fates's story. The characters maybe, but the story itself is trash. And considering how high IS set the bar, the harder the fall became.

This forum has already established good things about the game so it's not like we are so hateful that we trash everything in the game. It's just that the main thing everyone looked forward to became the worst and it's understandable that people are dissapointed.

I do feel sorry if the scenario writers waltzed in here and read all the negativity, but if they do, they hopefully learn what to avoid next time. Especially this player worshipping.

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I wouldn't say the story's being as negatively received as it appears to be in this thread, honestly. On tumblr, the reception has been generally good, after the first week of freaking out over fan service, and I know plenty of people who have played the game (and understood the plot) and liked it just fine. In particular, the character complaints + player worshipping stuff hasn't registered anywhere.

There are definitely issues (and I share JupiterKnight's opinion as to what those are), but I haven't seen much of the American audience that's already looked into the game dialogue or played it bringing more than a few things up. Perhaps we're just less picky or something. I know I at least came in with kinda low expectations after hearing all the criticism and then was pleasantly surprised.

Edited by artishe
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I know, but even in threads about the gameplay, I've seen people complain about the story, which made made wonder why people seemed to prefer complaining about the story rather than talking about the gameplay. I mean, I know this thread is to talk about how fix Fate's story, but I was just wondering.

But then again,I went overboard, so I apologise for that.

And I've even forgotten the point of my previous comment, which was to talk about that Fates's story is just another example of how in japanese fiction it's seems popular to make worlds relvolve around one character and have many others characters rave about how amazing that singular character is.

I was just wondering why that sort of thing is so common in japanese fiction.

What games are you thinking about? I know there are standard hero tropes, and stories where one guy is super talented and gets lots of praise but which ones actively weaken the narrative for that purpose? A lot of the criticism here for Fates' character worship is because it devalues the motivations of other characters and warps the plot. Camilla is obsessed with Kamui despite have 3 other siblings to dote on, Suzukaze and Silas will betray their country for no other reason than to be by your side, etc. The Hoshido characters reactions to Kamui is the part I find the most hard to swallow. Hinoka and Ryoma (Takumi and Sakura probably don't remember you well enough to warrant a reaction) being shocked and saddened by Kamui's choice to side with Nohr is one thing, but they act like getting him back is still a big priority. Kamui is just a single guy, a stranger by the time they meet him again.

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Takumi and Sakura don't remember Kamui at all. They were too young.

Suzukaze had his life spared by Kamui and then saw their Royal sibling help fake his death to free him. Silas is tied to his backstory as the reason why he wasn't just outright executed for taking Kamui out of the fortress.

I agree that Ryoma and Hinoka are too obsessed over Kamui.

Edited by JupiterKnight
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Suzukaze had his life spared by Kamui and then saw their Royal sibling help fake his death to free him. Silas is tied to his backstory as the reason why he wasn't just outright executed for taking Kamui out of the fortress.

Man, if everyone who was spared by the enemy later defected to that enemy's side to pay off a debt, participants of a war would start on one end and end up on the other.

In all seriousness, Suzukaze probably felt that he owed Kamui a debt for saving his life and because he couldn't protect them from getting kidnapped. Except that the country didn't just lose Kamui that day, they lost their emperor Sumeragi who died at Garon's hands. Where is the guilt for not being able to prevent Sumeragi's death, Suzukaze? Not to mention that Suzukaze is not stated to have any beef with his country or his family. Is he really willing to let Kamui raze his land and kill his people (INCLUDING HIS OWN BROTHER) because of his guilt and because apparently Kamui spared innocents that one time?

Because if that's the case, Suzukaze is way too Kamui-centric. Oh sure, let your guilt over Kamui's kidnapping dictate how to fight this war. Hope you don't feel guilt for betraying your country and not going against Kamui's insane plan later.

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