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Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

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Adding onto what Sunwoo said, Silas being your follower even though you don't remember him is a little odd. Was it implied he had nowhere else to go, no one else to serve? Who knows how many years he was separated from Kamui. The fact that he sought him out, even after Kamui defects to Hoshido is a weird one. Maybe he sensed Kamui's awesome kingly attributes like Ryoma did.

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Hoshido is too perfect for anyone from Hoshido to have problems with it.

Actually no wait the fact that it's too inhumanly perfect is a reason to rebel. Burn it to the ground!

Heh I just read the Silas and Suzukaze support. They mention they literally are too obsessed with paying a debt once they are indebted to someone.

Adding onto what Sunwoo said, Silas being your follower even though you don't remember him is a little odd. Was it implied he had nowhere else to go, no one else to serve? Who knows how many years he was separated from Kamui. The fact that he sought him out, even after Kamui defects to Hoshido is a weird one. Maybe he sensed Kamui's awesome kingly attributes like Ryoma did.

It's why he joined the army. To meet up with Kamui eventually. What he did not know was that the Servants and soldiers were instructed to make Kamui forget Silas over the years by distracting them and giving them more servants instead of friends.

Edited by JupiterKnight

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What games are you thinking about? I know there are standard hero tropes, and stories where one guy is super talented and gets lots of praise but which ones actively weaken the narrative for that purpose? A lot of the criticism here for Fates' character worship is because it devalues the motivations of other characters and warps the plot. Camilla is obsessed with Kamui despite have 3 other siblings to dote on, Suzukaze and Silas will betray their country for no other reason than to be by your side, etc. The Hoshido characters reactions to Kamui is the part I find the most hard to swallow. Hinoka and Ryoma (Takumi and Sakura probably don't remember you well enough to warrant a reaction) being shocked and saddened by Kamui's choice to side with Nohr is one thing, but they act like getting him back is still a big priority. Kamui is just a single guy, a stranger by the time they meet him again.

One of the examples I was thinking is Pokemon, while it doesn't weaken the narrative, sometimes the focus on the player makes you feel like a jerk, like how Morty trains so hard to see Ho-oh, but he gets dumped bu Ho-oh for the player character, it feels wrong, since the guy worked so hard, then there's Wally, who worked so hard to reach Victory Road and yet he isn't allowed to defeat you, the story won't progress if he does, and I feel the focus on the player really hurts these two characters development.

There's also how Black/White treats the player character like a messiah, even tought you could be treating your pokemon like crap.

And there's Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, where in the first game a lot of things revolve around player, and how the partner is completely dependent on the Hero, and in the second game, there's Grovyle and the partner about how amazing the Hero, even tought the Hero hardly ever talks.

There's also the Persona games, with the characters talking about how amazing you are and it made angry of how you couldn't finish a Social Link with a girl without having her falling in love with you, and this is especially bad in Persona 3, since you're pretty much forced to cheat on them, if want to complete all Social Links, I feel it hurts their character development.

Like I said before, it really doesn't hurt the narrative too much, but you can't deny that there's a bit of unnecessary player worshiping in these games.

And there's manga/anime like Naruto or Bleach, whose focus on Naruto and Ichigo hurts the narrative a bit.

Edited by Water Mage

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One of the examples I was thinking is Pokemon, while it doesn't weaken the narrative, sometimes he focus on the player makes you feel like a jerk, like how Morty trains so hard to see Ho-oh, but he gets dumped bu Ho-oh for the player character, it feels wrong, since the guy worked so hard, then there's Wally, who worked so hard to reach Victory Road and yet he isn't allowed to defeat you, the story won't progress if he does, and I feel the focus on the player really hurts these two characters development.

There's also how Black/White treats the player character like a messiah, even tought you could be treating your pokemon like crap.

And there's Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, where in the first game a lot of things revolve around player, and how the partner is completely dependent on the Hero, and in the second game, there's Grovyle and the partner about how amazing the Hero, even tought the Hero hardly ever talks.

There's also the Persona games, with the characters talking about how amazing you are and it made angry of how you couldn't finish a Social Link with a girl without having her falling in love with you, and this is especially bad in Persona 3, since you're pretty much forced to cheat on them, if want to complete all Social Links, I feel it hurts their character development.

Like I said before, it really doesn't hurt the narrative too much, but you can't deny that there's a bit of unnecessary player worshiping in these games.

And there's manga/anime like Naruto or Bleach, whose focus on Naruto and Ichigo hurts the narrative a bit.

Hm, I can't comment on Mystery Dungeon or Persona as I haven't played them but I'd describe the Pokemon games as generally being about an atmosphere of adventure (that even a kid can accomplish) more than story. Unless you want to get into the meta of certain player actions (like chain breeding, animal fighting, etc), I don't think it's really possible to be a jerk or villainous. The most you can do to your Pokemon is be shitty at battles and let them faint. It is pretty player-centric, but I can give give it a pass for being a story geared towards children. I'll take your word on the other games. Japanese gamers do seem to have a different appreciation for stories than westerners do.

I feel like for a story (like Fates) handling the themes of betrayal, war, murder, incest and conflicting loyalties, it should have the maturity to not make the story all about you. Game of Thrones (or choose some other fantasy epic) would not have nearly as much appeal if the Starks were unstoppable moral paragons who never did wrong, or were excused whenever they did.

Edited by NekoKnight

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Hm, I can't comment on Mystery Dungeon or Persona as I haven't played them but I'd describe the Pokemon games as generally being about an atmosphere of adventure (that even a kid can accomplish) more than story. Unless you want to get into the meta of certain player actions (like chain breeding, animal fighting, etc), I don't think it's really possible to be a jerk or villainous. The most you can do to your Pokemon is be shitty at battles and let them faint. It is pretty player-centric, but I can give give it a pass for being a story geared towards children. I'll take your word on the other games. Japanese gamers do seem to have a different appreciation for stories than westerners do.

I feel like for a story (like Fates) handling the themes of betrayal, war, murder, incest and conflicting loyalties, it should have the maturity to not make the story all about you. Game of Thrones (or choose some other fantasy epic) would not have nearly as much appeal if the Starks were unstoppable moral paragons who never did wrong, or were excused whenever they did.

My guess as for why they didn't do this sort of story in Fates was because this kind of story is not popular in Japan, in fact, I think the story is one the reasons that the Jugdral and Tellius games are the least popular Fire Emblem games in Japan, or there's even Mother 3, whose story is darker and deeper that the other two Mother games, and yet Mother 3 is despised by a good part of the japanese fanbase.

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I feel like ASoIaF comes up in these discussions though because it's one of few fantasy novels that does this and does it right.

The amount of writing it would take to do this well is far more than FE usually includes, would likely take protag changes or a lot of exposition to explain peoples nuanced opinions, and would end up being extremely convoluted in the long run because even GoT is convoluted and they don't need to include a full scale battle every chapter.

In the context of FE and its gameplay constraints, I'm not sure how a GoT style plot is feasible without walls of immersion breaking text and monologuing.

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Oh, I don't expect the depth a series like ASoIaF to fit in Fire Emblem (when writing my own version of the story, part of the problem is pacing exposition and gameplay when there is so much to talk about), but some of the tone and nuance would be nice. I wouldn't even describe it as hard to do. As I've said numerous times before, all the pieces for a good story are in the box, they just need to be assembled correctly.

Edited by NekoKnight

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I dunno. I feel like they tried to go darker/more drama-y in FE6/FE7 by adding in all these extra lil lords/dukelings that schemed against you/each other and assassins and all the NPC deaths, but it just... didn't work. They had no impact because FE is too light on text to develop characters and pull that kinda thing off well. I actually thought FE14 did a better job with the darker tone.

Edited by artishe

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My guess as for why they didn't do this sort of story in Fates was because this kind of story is not popular in Japan, in fact, I think the story is one the reasons that the Jugdral and Tellius games are the least popular Fire Emblem games in Japan, or there's even Mother 3, whose story is darker and deeper that the other two Mother games, and yet Mother 3 is despised by a good part of the japanese fanbase.

Actually, Genealogy is very popular in Japan. According to a Famitsu poll held in 2012, it got 11th on the list, beating out well every other FE game: http://mynintendonews.com/2012/01/02/famitsu-readers-rank-the-top-50-nintendo-games-of-all-time/?_ga=1.111726016.554693458.1431838621

Edited by Medeus

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Actually, Genealogy is very popular in Japan. According to this Famous poll held in 2012, it got number 12 on the list, beating out well every other FE game, including Mystery of the Emblem: http://mynintendonews.com/2012/01/02/famitsu-readers-rank-the-top-50-nintendo-games-of-all-time/?_ga=1.111726016.554693458.1431838621

Funny, I've always heard it wasn't popular in Japan. Maybe it wasn't popular when it was first released.

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The sales numbers certainly don't paint FE4 as unpopular, with Japan being the only official market for the game.

As of 2002, Genealogy of the Holy War was the second-best-selling Fire Emblem game, having sold an estimated 498,216 copies in its original Super Famicom print run.

source

I'm guessing Jugdral's just not as heavily referenced as other FE setting because of the infamous incest (though comparatively, Fates blows it out of the water with number of incestual marriage options) and the moral greys of Thracia. Jugdral also has way more backstabbing nobles than Elibe and darker in-game material like "witch hunts" and "child hunts" and the killing off of families/bloodlines/people groups, but personally I think it works.

Of course, when I first heard of Fates' premise I thought we were getting a newer, shinier version of the Trabant-kidnaps-and-raises-Altenna subplot made into main plot. Now I'm finding the skeleton subplot of Thracia vs. Manster a lot more believable, and wishing they'd taken more cues from it.

I'm still looking forward to playing FE14 and buying all the DLC once it's released in English. Doesn't stop me from critiquing the narrative though.

Edited by Damosel

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Man, if everyone who was spared by the enemy later defected to that enemy's side to pay off a debt, participants of a war would start on one end and end up on the other.

In all seriousness, Suzukaze probably felt that he owed Kamui a debt for saving his life and because he couldn't protect them from getting kidnapped. Except that the country didn't just lose Kamui that day, they lost their emperor Sumeragi who died at Garon's hands. Where is the guilt for not being able to prevent Sumeragi's death, Suzukaze? Not to mention that Suzukaze is not stated to have any beef with his country or his family. Is he really willing to let Kamui raze his land and kill his people (INCLUDING HIS OWN BROTHER) because of his guilt and because apparently Kamui spared innocents that one time?

Because if that's the case, Suzukaze is way too Kamui-centric. Oh sure, let your guilt over Kamui's kidnapping dictate how to fight this war. Hope you don't feel guilt for betraying your country and not going against Kamui's insane plan later.

I wonder if the writers realized they've dropped the ball on this, because like I said, Suzukaze never actually explained to anyone (even Kamui) why exactly he wanted to join and assist them in that situation, to the point of turning his back on his own country (and before someone brings up support conversations, all of the supports minus Kamui x Aqua are the same in Conquest/Birthright and IK, so you can't really find anything useful in this particular context there). Upon his recruitment, he only confirmed with Kamui of the latter's intention, and after realizing that Kamui had their own plan and that he had misunderstood them, he said that he decided to join them. But why???

Like, I don't recall having seen any defection this vague in the FE games I've played. People can be in cahoot with you for very stupid reasons, but at least the games usually made it clear what those reasons were. All of his possible "motivations" we've brought up so far are actually only speculations. They couldn't come up with a good motive lol. I don't remember if Silas also explicitly stated why he would side with Kamui either, but at least his case was more passable either way. They probably thought that had they written down a specific reason for his defection, they would've stabbed themselves on their own feet no matter what they came up with, since said reason would be either inconsistent with other plots or flat-out unbelievable. So it's better to leave it to the players' interpretation :/

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Like, I don't recall having seen any defection this vague in the FE games I've played. People can be in cahoot with you for very stupid reasons, but at least the games usually made it clear what those reasons were. All of his possible "motivations" we've brought up so far are actually only speculations. They couldn't come up with a good motive lol. I don't remember if Silas also explicitly stated why he would side with Kamui either, but at least his case was more passable either way. They probably thought that had they written down a specific reason for his defection, they would've stabbed themselves on their own feet no matter what they came up with, since said reason would be either inconsistent with other plots or flat-out unbelievable. So it's better to leave it to the players' interpretation :/

Silas explains on Hoshido that he made a Knight's vow to himself to serve Kamui after he was saved from being executed. Simple, but it's there.

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Like, I don't recall having seen any defection this vague in the FE games I've played. People can be in cahoot with you for very stupid reasons, but at least the games usually made it clear what those reasons were. All of his possible "motivations" we've brought up so far are actually only speculations. They couldn't come up with a good motive lol. I don't remember if Silas also explicitly stated why he would side with Kamui either, but at least his case was more passable either way. They probably thought that had they written down a specific reason for his defection, they would've stabbed themselves on their own feet no matter what they came up with, since said reason would be either inconsistent with other plots or flat-out unbelievable. So it's better to leave it to the players' interpretation :/

The reason for his choice doesn't need to be the same for all routes, it can be a reaction to things that happen in the plot (ie not be in support conversations). For Hoshido, it's obvious. He lives in Glorious Nippon, why would he switch sides? For Nohr, at least in my story, he would decide to support Kamui because the Hoshidan resistance against Nohrian occupation was becoming indiscriminate in their targeting of Nohrians and Hoshidans collaborating with them.

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The reason for his choice doesn't need to be the same for all routes, it can be a reaction to things that happen in the plot (ie not be in support conversations). For Hoshido, it's obvious. He lives in Glorious Nippon, why would he switch sides? For Nohr, at least in my story, he would decide to support Kamui because the Hoshidan resistance against Nohrian occupation was becoming indiscriminate in their targeting of Nohrians and Hoshidans collaborating with them.

Hey, this could work even in the main game: The Hoshidan troops are indiscriminate between Nohrian invaders and Nohrian civilians/other people. But obviously they're too afraid too paint Hoshido in a grayer shade... for some reasons. I kinda like this idea because while it still keeps the theme that some people would ally with you no matter what, but their decisions are based on the (variable) situation at hand and their own thinking, not because "I HAVE SWORN LOYALTY TO KAMUI-SAMA!!!! NONE OPPOSING MY LORD SHALL LIVE!!!!"

If you don't mind sharing, how are you going to handle other people's defection, like say... Felicia? That's also a fanatic fangirl of Kamui-sama right there. I personally have given up on salvaging her character.

In my story, only her, Aqua (not a princess but a wandering songstress who isn't aware of her origin), Gunter (who doesn't fall into IK), and perhaps Ashura would follow you on all routes. Gunter because he has a personal grudge against Garon (as revealed in the game). Izana only joins in IK for being truly neutral (does not die there). I replaced Silas with Inigo as Marx's retainer, so while he still retains his friendship with Kamui, he can't outright betray his liege/country due to his position. Same goes with Suzukaze, who doesn't have a particular master but still serves the Hoshidan royal family as a whole. These two would only assist Kamui in some trivial/filler stuffs that's not directly detrimental to their country, and that's all about it. I made it so that just like with the two sets of siblings, if you choose a close childhood friend you would lose out a chance to interact with someone who could've become your loyal retainer, and vice versa, so that's another layer of relationship. I also made people who are "inherently" obsessed with Kamui like Camilla have something better to do, like make her the former lover of Ryoma (who still have feeling for each other but had to break up due to the war and their position).

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For Hoshido, it's obvious. He lives in Glorious Nippon, why would he switch sides? For Nohr, at least in my story, he would decide to support Kamui because the Hoshidan resistance against Nohrian occupation was becoming indiscriminate in their targeting of Nohrians and Hoshidans collaborating with them.

You have it backwards: Silas is from Nohr and switches sides in the Hoshido campaign, not the Nohr campaign.

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You have it backwards: Silas is from Nohr and switches sides in the Hoshido campaign, not the Nohr campaign.

He was talking about Suzukaze.

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If you look at his post, he quotes a passage that only mentions Silas and not Suzukaze.

That quote was talking about Suzukaze mostly, with only a mention of Silas in between. It was my wording that was vague, but I think he understood it anyway.

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Hey, this could work even in the main game: The Hoshidan troops are indiscriminate between Nohrian invaders and Nohrian civilians/other people. But obviously they're too afraid too paint Hoshido in a grayer shade... for some reasons. I kinda like this idea because while it still keeps the theme that some people would ally with you no matter what, but their decisions are based on the (variable) situation at hand and their own thinking, not because "I HAVE SWORN LOYALTY TO KAMUI-SAMA!!!! NONE OPPOSING MY LORD SHALL LIVE!!!!"

If you don't mind sharing, how are you going to handle other people's defection, like say... Felicia? That's also a fanatic fangirl of Kamui-sama right there. I personally have given up on salvaging her character.

In my story, only her, Aqua (not a princess but a wandering songstress who isn't aware of her origin), Gunter (who doesn't fall into IK), and perhaps Ashura would follow you on all routes. Gunter because he has a personal grudge against Garon (as revealed in the game). Izana only joins in IK for being truly neutral (does not die there). I replaced Silas with Inigo as Marx's retainer, so while he still retains his friendship with Kamui, he can't outright betray his liege/country due to his position. Same goes with Suzukaze, who doesn't have a particular master but still serves the Hoshidan royal family as a whole. These two would only assist Kamui in some trivial/filler stuffs that's not directly detrimental to their country, and that's all about it. I made it so that just like with the two sets of siblings, if you choose a close childhood friend you would lose out a chance to interact with someone who could've become your loyal retainer, and vice versa, so that's another layer of relationship. I also made people who are "inherently" obsessed with Kamui like Camilla have something better to do, like make her the former lover of Ryoma (who still have feeling for each other but had to break up due to the war and their position).

Actually, Felicia has a lot potential in the story.

A good reason for her to side with Hoshido is the fact the she and Flora are no different that Kamui, they are Nohr's prisioners in a glided cage.

Another very interesting thing about Felicia is the fact that she's the only neutral character that actually has to face the consequences of betraying her country, granted having them trying to kill you may seem like is already consequence enough, but Felicia is really the only neutral character that have pay a heavy price for betraying her country, not only that, but even her own sister, Flora, is punished for Felicia's betrayal.

So, really, don't give up on Felicia, she has a lot potential, especially on the Hoshido path.

Another character that has lot story potential for the Hoshido is Silas, him betraying his own country could lead for some very interesting things.

Edited by Water Mage

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Felicia has potentials, but her character is very one-dimensional and is one of the most gimmicky characters in the whole game, especially compared to Flora. When she's not obsessed with serving Kamui, she's having trouble with being a maid. Adding depth to her is what I'm having trouble with.

If I must try something, I would probably make her more concerned/aware of the situation between Nohr's leadership and her clan. She sides with Hoshido not only so that she can be together with Kamui, but so that she can guide/convince the Hoshido army into cooperating with the Ice clan (who are vastly outnumbered) to overthrow Garon. So technically she's actively trying to help her people instead of betraying them. Though of course, things doesn't turn out as ideal as her expectation, when she'll eventually have to face her own family on the battlefield.

Personally, I'm trying to avoid situations where people follow Kamui out of sheer loyalty/admiration/bond etc. They should have other motivations of their own. I'd also cut down a lot of defections from Nohr to Hoshido (Joker will either not exist or have another role more interesting than being a male version of Felicia).

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Felicia has potentials, but her character is very one-dimensional and is one of the most gimmicky characters in the whole game, especially compared to Flora. When she's not obsessed with serving Kamui, she's having trouble with being a maid. Adding depth to her is what I'm having trouble with.

If I must try something, I would probably make her more concerned/aware of the situation between Nohr's leadership and her clan. She sides with Hoshido not only so that she can be together with Kamui, but so that she can guide/convince the Hoshido army into cooperating with the Ice clan (who are vastly outnumbered) to overthrow Garon. So technically she's actively trying to help her people instead of betraying them. Though of course, things doesn't turn out as ideal as her expectation, when she'll eventually have to face her own family on the battlefield.

Personally, I'm trying to avoid situations where people follow Kamui out of sheer loyalty/admiration/bond etc. They should have other motivations of their own. I'd also cut down a lot of defections from Nohr to Hoshido (Joker will either not exist or have another role more interesting than being a male version of Felicia).

The reason for why I think Silas should still side with Hoshido, is the fact that in his support with Kagerou, Silas mention that his parents seem to be friendly towards Hoshidans, so for example, Silas's parents could be Crimson's allies. That would give him reason to side with Hoshido.

Really, while I'm one the few here that really wasn't dissapointed by Fates's story, even I think that the neutral characters deserved more focus, like Silas could face consequeces for siding with Hoshido, such as having his parents executed, which could make question his reasons for siding with Kamui.

Edited by Water Mage

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I'm also bothered by the fact that Silas doesn't have to face any dilemma when he chooses to stay in Hoshido. His parents are still doing fine, and even supportive of his relationship with a Hoshidan girl. He also doesn't have any notable relationship with any other Nohrian soldier whom he might regret killing. It seems he would enjoy his life either way.

Edited by Ryo

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I'm also bothered by the fact that Silas doesn't have to face any dilemma when he chooses to stay in Hoshido. His parents are still doing fine, and even supportive of his relationship with a Hoshidan girl. He also doesn't have any notable relationship with any other Nohrian solider whom he might regret killing. It seems he would enjoy his life either way.

Well, to be fair, Silas doesn't seem to have had any friends before joining Kamui, his supports with Elise and Camilla seems to imply that he's actually really lonely, and craves affection from others.

Dammit, I started posting in this thread telling people to stop complaining about the story, and yet, here I am, complaining about the story and trying to rewrite it...

There's reason why I avoided this thread, I knew I wouldn't be able to resist writing a fanfic.

My inner fanfiction writer is turning me into a hypocrite, godammit!

Edited by Water Mage

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