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Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)


Yari
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Oh for fucking sake, it's like you've already made up your mind and aren't even going to try to consider a different perspective at all.

I'd rather check with Kirokan or a translation of that Hoshido chapter where you kill Iago before saying any of this with certainty. But it sounded to me as if Zoura was not involved in betraying Kamui in Hoshido 14. I can see why he'd run up to Garon even if he weren't serving him … if he grew a backbone during the short time he was with you in Hoshido. That still is a big "if", but I am not convinced.

Edited by Sunwoo
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Still didn't stop him from screwing up the one chance they had at an assassination attempt to kill Garon, which to me says more of his actions since he's too cowardly to defy his superiors in Nohr. Even Leo kills him on Nohr because he knows he would reveal that they saved the Hoshido siblings out of fear and taking Sakura hostage on IK that also gets him killed by Leo for tactics he considers cowardly. His fear of his superiors will always triumph, even if he tries to put in a good word for them.

That's the sort of person Zoura is. I'm not saying he's a great guy, just that Kamui's treatment of him inspired him to stand up to Garon which got him killed. It sounds like Leon knew him personally, so he has a more informed opinion of Zoura than Kamui does.

Edited by NekoKnight
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Oh for fucking sake, it's like you've already made up your mind and aren't even going to try to consider a different perspective at all.

I'd rather check with Kirokan or a translation of that Hoshido chapter where you kill Iago before saying any of this with certainty. But it sounded to me as if Zoura was not involved in betraying Kamui in Hoshido 14. I can see why he'd run up to Garon even if he weren't serving him … if he grew a backbone during the short time he was with you in Hoshido. That still is a big "if", but I am not convinced.

There's a translation of the script for chapter 12. Garon even says Zoura by name after revealing there was a snitch amongst them and Zoura admits to being a spy.

Edited by JupiterKnight
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Well, the black vs white decision helps emphasize the conflict IS decided to focus on, so from a writing standpoint, it makes sense.

Whether or not it was the better theme to focus on is purely personal preference.

The Black vs. White theme is a play on Yin and Yang, as can be seen with the images here: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=57162&p=3988231

A competent writer would have taken the two kingdoms and played with the presence or lack thereof of certain qualities between the two nations. These qualities would not have necessarily been "good" or "evil" qualities outright but instead cultural mindsets and leanings that would push the two to clash. They would have even added subtle hints through world building and dialogue that the two kingdoms have connecting qualities both sides are too worked up to even notice. Sort of, like....every other Fire Emblem game, though the Tellius games and Thracia come to mind in particular.

This could have been a great opportunity to present two separate cultures connected by deep roots to a past long forgotten, but it is squandered for plot holes and cardboard cut-out settings. There were clearly good ideas put into this game (a lot of the symbolism is very intriguing conceptually) but the push for heavy fanservice shows where the "focus" of the developers was.

Which is why everyone and their mom is working out an AU fic.

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Party Moth caught the point. Even a game for the NES (Gaiden) did the clash of two nations in a way that showed both kingdoms having serious issues in their societies since they were led astray by their gods. One was green yet corrupt, the other brutal and not knowing leisure. Duma himself was not a poorly executed otherworldly Ultimate Mastermind Behind It All like Hydra is, seeing as how it was a human ruler who composed the plot to free the continent from the meddling gods.

On another note, speaking of AU fics how is your rewrite coming along Party Moth?

Edited by Alazen
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Speaking of AU fics, how is your rewrite coming along Party Moth?

Coming along, though the Invisible History DLC changed everything. This outline is quickly getting out of hand; I initially wanted to post everything, with each section closed off by separate spoiler tags. However, now I've gotten to the point where I want to see this through and it's developed into a whole new monster, so for the moment I'll just post the titles for all the parts:

Pre-Split: Of Fates and Threads

Hoshido: Without Beginning or End

Nohr: The Wisdom By Their Wit to Lose

IK: The Flames of Conflict (Shall Once More Scorch the Land)

The first title is the title for the entire project, and the other three are quotes that hold relevance to each path. As I've mentioned before, this project is a tad malicious toward the fanbase/game and the content of each path reflects that in different ways. Keep that in mind as information is trickled out.

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Please tell me your rewrite at least doesn't have a Golden Ending restricted to DLC or the Special Edition that has ''No talking about Touma'' as the excuse for not revealing the UMBIA (Hydra) in the other Paths.

Edited by Alazen
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In Gaiden, at the very least that prosperous country is shown to have its own problems rather than being 100% utopia great stuff guys you should try it nothing wrong here.

I've also been thinking about Hydra vs. Medeus in terms of mad dragon gods- in Medeus' case he has a history with humanity where he watched them take over the land which had been the dragons and was infruiated when they treated the manaketes poorly. He's a manakete that goes out of his way to make war on humanity because of this, not because he went feral. With Hydra it seems to be more imply that ALL dragons will eventually go mad (despite the fact that placing their power into a dragonstone is meant to prevent this) and screwing with humanity is just was mad dragons do.

A competent writer would have taken the two kingdoms and played with the presence or lack thereof of certain qualities between the two nations. These qualities would not have necessarily been "good" or "evil" qualities outright but instead cultural mindsets and leanings that would push the two to clash. They would have even added subtle hints through world building and dialogue that the two kingdoms have connecting qualities both sides are too worked up to even notice. Sort of, like....every other Fire Emblem game, though the Tellius games and Thracia come to mind in particular.

This could have been a great opportunity to present two separate cultures connected by deep roots to a past long forgotten, but it is squandered for plot holes and cardboard cut-out settings. There were clearly good ideas put into this game (a lot of the symbolism is very intriguing conceptually) but the push for heavy fanservice shows where the "focus" of the developers was.

The culture clash and war of ideologies was something I was really hoping to see in Fates. In the older games I really loved how some of the supports between characters and general dialogue really display the fact that they're from different cultures with different values- and it's not a good or bad thing, it just is. Women in Ilia become pegknights because it's a highly recruitable job and there's very few ways outside of being a mecernary to make a living cause of the weather and poor earth (a lot like dragon knights in Thracia) they're used to being treated as disposable hired muscle by other nations, not that they like it but there's little choice.

Valm in FE13 was a an utter disappointment and the most we got between Ylisse vs Plegia was that blurb on how Chrom's father was a zealous fanatic who possibly commited geneocide, but that's just swept under the rug and never mentioned or examined again. I'm very sad that Fates uses the outright lable of "good" and "right" for one kingdom cause it implies "evil" and "wrong" for the other and kills all possibility for nuance.

I'd take an emotionally compelling story with characters that make mistakes over a logically sound one any day, so I guess it's just a personal preference thing.

Fates definitely has it's emotional moments. In the days before its official release in Japan, when Hong Kong had leaked the game early- I watched the streams and had NO IDEA what was going on. But the end-game spoiler scenes wherein siblings die were hella emotional, despite the fact I had no idea what anyone was saying or what had lead up to the events. However being an emotionally compelling story and a logically sound one are not mutually exclusive, you can definitely pull off both.

And the FE series does not lack characters that make mistakes: Nyna tries to forget Camus but pines still and misses the clues that her husband is suffering from more than just jealousy. Sigurd is willing to give most people the benefit of the doubt and this guileless trust gets not only himself killed but most of his army. Trabant sees an opportunity to remove the biggest obstacle in Thracia's path to taking over Manster's bounty and not only kidnaps a child but uses her to murder an unarmed man, but his poor nation can't compete with an imperializing empire thus his dreams of better conditions for his countrymen are never realized. Alvis wants to unite the continent and bring it into a new enlightened age turning Sigurd into a scapegoat and taunting him with Deirdre, yet allows Mafroys blackmail to override any kill-this-creeper thoughts and his son is turned into the FE antichrist. Eliwood sets out to find his father and brings him home but fails in this mission and realizes there are bigger stakes than his immediate family and even territory. The king of Bern torments and wants to kill his legitimate son and heir all because he hates the boy's mother, which sets Zephidel on the path of 'lets watch the world burn' in FE6. Lyon invents dark magic by messing with the sacred stone that housed the Demon King and untimately is reduced to its puppet dooming not only his kingdom but all of Magvel. Almedha ignored the corruption and cruel nature of her lover which not only got her child stolen from her but her brother willingly driven feral and turned into a mount to save her and her child's life from said lover. I could list more, but yeah.

A big difference between older games and the newer entries is how the concequences of these mistakes are shown- the player avatar seems to get pulled punches compared to the tragedy that landed on past characters for similar mistakes. And the narrative warps around THEIR feelings personally as the focus, rather than stepping back and saying, "Look at how everyone has suffered from this."

But everyone has their own reading of texts and personal preferences. If you like Fates story as is and prefer it to all other FE narratives, more power to you. Though I'm not sure why critiquing the parts I'm not liking can't get the same legitimacy- especially in the "fix story issues" thread.

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Whatever the case is with Hydra, it seems that his power is just too great. He even resorted to using a fragment of his stone as the pendant the songstresses/kings of Touma would use to weaken him by singing. So he had a stone at some point. Unless his power was too great and it destroyed the original stone, or if that eye orb in his mouth that's the core of the final battle is actually his stone.

There's also the fact that the dragons became spirits instead of assuming human form in the backstory bits for Fates, with the exception of Rainbow Sage and Hydra.

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Lumi/Thor and I spent a good chunk of the evening talking over Skype about a new idea for a third path. Here, Kamui is possessed by Hydra after he and Aqua fall into the IK and possessed!Kamui is razing both Nohr and Hoshido to the ground. The siblings have to join forces to stop Kamui because if they ignore him, there will be no Nohr or Hoshido left at all.

I'm going to write it.

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Lumi/Thor and I spent a good chunk of the evening talking over Skype about a new idea for a third path. Here, Kamui is possessed by Hydra after he and Aqua fall into the IK and possessed!Kamui is razing both Nohr and Hoshido to the ground. The siblings have to join forces to stop Kamui because if they ignore him, there will be no Nohr or Hoshido left at all.

I'm going to write it.

10/10 would read. Please warn us when it's published.
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The first title is the title for the entire project, and the other three are quotes that hold relevance to each path. As I've mentioned before, this project is a tad malicious toward the fanbase/game and the content of each path reflects that in different ways. Keep that in mind as information is trickled out.

What matter of devilry have you created?

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In Gaiden, at the very least that prosperous country is shown to have its own problems rather than being 100% utopia great stuff guys you should try it nothing wrong here.

I've also been thinking about Hydra vs. Medeus in terms of mad dragon gods- in Medeus' case he has a history with humanity where he watched them take over the land which had been the dragons and was infruiated when they treated the manaketes poorly. He's a manakete that goes out of his way to make war on humanity because of this, not because he went feral. With Hydra it seems to be more imply that ALL dragons will eventually go mad (despite the fact that placing their power into a dragonstone is meant to prevent this) and screwing with humanity is just was mad dragons do.

The culture clash and war of ideologies was something I was really hoping to see in Fates. In the older games I really loved how some of the supports between characters and general dialogue really display the fact that they're from different cultures with different values- and it's not a good or bad thing, it just is. Women in Ilia become pegknights because it's a highly recruitable job and there's very few ways outside of being a mecernary to make a living cause of the weather and poor earth (a lot like dragon knights in Thracia) they're used to being treated as disposable hired muscle by other nations, not that they like it but there's little choice.

Valm in FE13 was a an utter disappointment and the most we got between Ylisse vs Plegia was that blurb on how Chrom's father was a zealous fanatic who possibly commited geneocide, but that's just swept under the rug and never mentioned or examined again. I'm very sad that Fates uses the outright lable of "good" and "right" for one kingdom cause it implies "evil" and "wrong" for the other and kills all possibility for nuance.

Fates definitely has it's emotional moments. In the days before its official release in Japan, when Hong Kong had leaked the game early- I watched the streams and had NO IDEA what was going on. But the end-game spoiler scenes wherein siblings die were hella emotional, despite the fact I had no idea what anyone was saying or what had lead up to the events. However being an emotionally compelling story and a logically sound one are not mutually exclusive, you can definitely pull off both.

And the FE series does not lack characters that make mistakes: Nyna tries to forget Camus but pines still and misses the clues that her husband is suffering from more than just jealousy. Sigurd is willing to give most people the benefit of the doubt and this guileless trust gets not only himself killed but most of his army. Trabant sees an opportunity to remove the biggest obstacle in Thracia's path to taking over Manster's bounty and not only kidnaps a child but uses her to murder an unarmed man, but his poor nation can't compete with an imperializing empire thus his dreams of better conditions for his countrymen are never realized. Alvis wants to unite the continent and bring it into a new enlightened age turning Sigurd into a scapegoat and taunting him with Deirdre, yet allows Mafroys blackmail to override any kill-this-creeper thoughts and his son is turned into the FE antichrist. Eliwood sets out to find his father and brings him home but fails in this mission and realizes there are bigger stakes than his immediate family and even territory. The king of Bern torments and wants to kill his legitimate son and heir all because he hates the boy's mother, which sets Zephidel on the path of 'lets watch the world burn' in FE6. Lyon invents dark magic by messing with the sacred stone that housed the Demon King and untimately is reduced to its puppet dooming not only his kingdom but all of Magvel. Almedha ignored the corruption and cruel nature of her lover which not only got her child stolen from her but her brother willingly driven feral and turned into a mount to save her and her child's life from said lover. I could list more, but yeah.

A big difference between older games and the newer entries is how the concequences of these mistakes are shown- the player avatar seems to get pulled punches compared to the tragedy that landed on past characters for similar mistakes. And the narrative warps around THEIR feelings personally as the focus, rather than stepping back and saying, "Look at how everyone has suffered from this."

But everyone has their own reading of texts and personal preferences. If you like Fates story as is and prefer it to all other FE narratives, more power to you. Though I'm not sure why critiquing the parts I'm not liking can't get the same legitimacy- especially in the "fix story issues" thread.

Thank you so much for explaining this. I really wanted to see more nuance between Hoshido and Nohr along with the type of culture clashes that happens in the older games like you mentioned, but it looks like it's not happening except for in AU fics. If Kamui was in one of the older FE games they would have been in such a huge mess due to the amount of naive and all around bad mistakes that they make. They would have to learn fast if they want things to go better and there won't be any hand holding or pulled punches allowed. Kamui won't be able to survive in Jugdral and in Elibe, Magvel, and Tellius they will be criticized to the ground.

Edited by Frelia
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Let's not forget the examples of Leif and Micaiah. Leif is a sheltered boy (and his sheltered upbringing with the ignorance that comes from it is NOT used to spin him as ''morally pure'' or whatever against dastardly bad men) who gets a large chunk of his army killed since he insisted on playing hero. Micaiah commits a war crime that is regarded as monstrous by both enemies and members of her side, the devotion she gets from her troops is treated as unnerving, and the Greil Mercenaries never really treat her as someone on their level.

And there's the obvious point that Sigurd, Leif, and Micaiah didn't have a bunch of characters in their armies whose apparent primary function was to be fixated on them in particular.

Edited by Alazen
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Lumi/Thor and I spent a good chunk of the evening talking over Skype about a new idea for a third path. Here, Kamui is possessed by Hydra after he and Aqua fall into the IK and possessed!Kamui is razing both Nohr and Hoshido to the ground. The siblings have to join forces to stop Kamui because if they ignore him, there will be no Nohr or Hoshido left at all.

I'm going to write it.

Probably would be a lot more interesting if Kamui was a better developed character (and being likeable wouldn't hurt, because that'd add some conflict on how they should go about stopping Kamui; I figure if they all hated Kamui, they'd be glad to just off him and be done with it), although since you're writing that shouldn't be a problem? Good luck with it, at any rate.

Edited by Refa
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List of Fates rewrites, or at least suggestions to fix Fates on this forum:

1. Mine

2. Party Moth's

3. Damosel's

4. NekoKnight's

5. Sunwoo's

6. Yari's

7. Thane's

Am I missing anybody's rewrites or suggestions?

Edited by Alazen
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This thread makes me want to play Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776. I thoroughly despise Blazing Sword though, and never really cared for the other localized games before Awakening either, so I don't know if I should set myself up for disappointment again. However, the plot for those two sounds far more interesting than other Fire Emblem games.

Edited by Thane
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As long as we're talking about rewrite/fanfiction ideas, I have one about how to make the Touman curse less stupid, but I'm still a little iffy about it. I'm thinking that it could function like the 'Tabboo' curse from Harry Potter, which simply lets Anankos know who and were you are. The main deterrent from speaking about the place in this case being that, because Anankos has such a massive hate-boner for people from Touma, that he'll come after you in person instead of sending minions, risk of being discovered be damned. Considering what we see his good half do in the Invisible History DLC, anyone within ten kilometers of him when he shows up would last maybe three seconds before getting annihilated unless they carry the Fire Emblem.

Anyway, I have a few more ideas I'd like to post later, but I need to work out the details. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Edited by Phillius
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This thread makes me want to play Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776. I thoroughly despise Blazing Sword though, and never really cared for the other localized games before Awakening either, so I don't know if I should set myself up for disappointment again. However, the plot for those two sounds far more interesting than other Fire Emblem games.

I recommend playing Thracia 776 first since its design is closer to the FEs released in the West. Don't listen to those who overblow its difficulty.

Edited by Alazen
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I recommend playing Thracia 776 first since it's design is closer to the FEs released in the West. Don't listen to those who overblow its difficulty.

I don't know about that. Playing FE5 before FE4 sounds to me like it would be very confusing.

Edited by BrightBow
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FE5 is hard for someone going at it blind. If you're aware of what the game will be throwing at you, it's not to bad, but it's a different kind of difficulty. A lot of FE5's perceived difficulty comes from the hell blind-players suffered since the kind of stuff it does to try to induce difficulty are unorthodox compared to the rest of FE, but it's deal-able. If you don't wanna go at it blind, then it shouldn't be too bad. In fact, it can get hilariously broken if you approach it right. Do it right and it becomes "Imao I have this 5 con sword girl except she's now 16 con and can throw armors over her shoulders and all my thieves are really buff and why can't I hold all these killing edges i mugged all the enemies for life is great"

I wouldn't say either of them are hard, pe se, just...different. Not that different's a bad thing since I enjoyed them both (hell Thracia is still my fav), but still different. This could throw people off, especially the first time.

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How does one go about playing them anyway? I will say they intrigue me due to the fanbase constantly praising and referring to them, but the same could be said about Blazing Sword and that game made me want to punch puppies.

Also, the difficulty doesn't concern me provided it's not insurmountable, I was thinking more about the story. It's more often than not the reason why I play video games in the first place, and why I give the ones I don't like such a hard time.

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How does one go about playing them anyway? I will say they intrigue me due to the fanbase constantly praising and referring to them, but the same could be said about Blazing Sword and that game made me want to punch puppies.

Also, the difficulty doesn't concern me provided it's not insurmountable, I was thinking more about the story. It's more often than not the reason why I play video games in the first place, and why I give the ones I don't like such a hard time.

Nohr's story makes me want to punch puppies and Marx. Especially Marx. He annoys me so much.

I know how you feel. Story is my main reason to play games. And I think FE4 has the best story in the FE series.

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How does one go about playing them anyway? I will say they intrigue me due to the fanbase constantly praising and referring to them, but the same could be said about Blazing Sword and that game made me want to punch puppies.

Well, could you list a few examples of what Blazing Blade's narrative had that made you want to do said puppy punching?

Also, if you're more into the narrative side then I could post a link to the latest English script for Genealogy of the Holy War.

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